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Posted to general@incubator.apache.org by Roman Shaposhnik <rv...@apache.org> on 2014/06/12 01:33:20 UTC
Request for mentor assessment
Hi!
I would like to kindly request some assistance
from the mentors of the following projects: devicemap,
kalumet, s4, wave and npanday (all CCed).
I would like to figure out whether the concerns I have
for these projects are justified and if they are, what
would be the proposed steps for the IPMC.
To be more specific:
* DeviceMap has been in the incubator since
2012-01-03. It seems like it is still struggling
with the basics: producing releases and growing
its PMC. What's the recommendation here?
* Kalumet has been in the incubator since 2011-09-20.
On one hand, it may be ready to graduate, but there
are also a few troubling signs. We need to get
recommendation on how to proceed.
* S4 seems to be on a trajectory for retirement. Can we,
please, have mentors initiate that discussion in the
community and follow up on general@ ?
* Wave is similar to Kalumet in that its been incubating
for a very long time (since 2010-12-01) but still show
troubling signs of lack of activity, lack of releases and
active PMC involvement.
* NPanday has been incubating since 2010-08-13. Has
a pretty consistent track record of missing reports and
low amount of activity.
And speaking of NPanday it seems to also have an additional
complication of mentors missing in action. I am also looking
for ideas of how to fix that. The best thought I have so far
is to ask for volunteers to step in and help.
Anyway, to make long story short, if mentors could check
back with their projects and reply to this thread with
concrete assessments and recommendations that would
be awesome.
Thanks,
Roman.
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Re: Request for mentor assessment
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
Hi Roman,
On Thu, Jun 12, 2014 at 1:33 AM, Roman Shaposhnik <rv...@apache.org> wrote:
...
> * DeviceMap has been in the incubator since
> 2012-01-03. It seems like it is still struggling
> with the basics: producing releases and growing
> its PMC. What's the recommendation here?...
I agree with your view - as a mentor I see no urgency to shut the
project down, it's fairly different from other projects in that it
needs little code, the bulk of it is mobile device data. The (small)
community is still struggling to find good ways to allow people to
contribute that data, and if that happens the project could become
viable quickly.
My recommendation as a mentor is to give DeviceMap a bit more time to
give it a chance to setup that data contribution mechanism.
-Bertrand
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Re: Request for mentor assessment
Posted by Roman Shaposhnik <rv...@apache.org>.
On Thu, Jun 12, 2014 at 9:31 PM, Joe Brockmeier <jz...@zonker.net> wrote:
> On 06/12/2014 07:56 PM, Roman Shaposhnik wrote:
>> This is one of the questions, I'd like to explore in greater details: are
>> we comfortable with having "professional student" projects in the
>> incubator?
>
> In response to the general question, it seems that "professional
> student" podlings are inconsistent with the idea that the Incubator is a
> process that should result in graduation or termination.
Thanks for chiming in! This is exactly where I'm coming from as well.
I'll start a separate thread on trying to define some kind of criteria.
Thanks,
Roman.
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Re: Request for mentor assessment
Posted by Roman Shaposhnik <rv...@apache.org>.
On Wed, Jun 18, 2014 at 1:22 PM, Christian Grobmeier
<gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> - no new committer for a year
> - AND no release for a year
> - AND less than 20 emails in a month on dev@
> - AND less than 10 commits in a month
> - AND no way to change this in the next three months (in example: hackathon
> on horizon)
That is completely fair. In fact [as I promised last week]
I am about to start a DISCUSS thread with amendments
to our Incubation policy outlining these very criteria.
Thanks,
Roman.
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Re: Request for mentor assessment
Posted by Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com>.
On 16 Jun 2014, at 21:56, Konstantin Boudnik wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 12, 2014 at 11:31PM, Joe Brockmeier wrote:
>> On 06/12/2014 07:56 PM, Roman Shaposhnik wrote:
>>> This suggests that ASF is being used as a GitHub of sorts. Are we
>>> comfortable
>>> with this?
It's not really like GitHub. There is a community, at least a few
people.
It's definitely not about the cool tools, otherwise they would have gone
to GitHub.
We asked them recently, they declined and wanted to stay as they feel
the ASF is the right place (see dev@ for reference)
>> Speaking for myself, no. I'd be uncomfortable having a specific
>> deadline
>> for graduation, but a podling that's not making progress towards
>> graduation (in general, not pointing a finger specifically at Wave
>> here)
>> should be terminated.
>
> For what it worth, I think you're right: a permanent incubator project
> doesn't
> make sense. For once, there's a lot of people mechanics involved into
> podlings' mentoring, reporting, etc. And it doesn't feel exactly right
> to
> forever handhold something that doesn't have an intention to evolve.
The have the intention, but not the man power.
There were phases with some excitement.
If the IPMC wants to shut down the podling, then I would like to see us
formulating a few rules when we do that. We should not shut a podling
down just because we feel like that. Instead let us define what it means
to "evolve" or what the "intention to evolve" means.
Like:
- no new committer for a year
- AND no release for a year
- AND less than 20 emails in a month on dev@
- AND less than 10 commits in a month
- AND no way to change this in the next three months (in example:
hackathon on horizon)
(according to this, Wave would go to attic)
Cheers,
Christian
>
> Cos
>
>
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---
http://www.grobmeier.de
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@grobmeier
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Re: Request for mentor assessment
Posted by Konstantin Boudnik <co...@apache.org>.
On Thu, Jun 12, 2014 at 11:31PM, Joe Brockmeier wrote:
> On 06/12/2014 07:56 PM, Roman Shaposhnik wrote:
> > This is one of the questions, I'd like to explore in greater details: are
> > we comfortable with having "professional student" projects in the
> > incubator?
>
> In response to the general question, it seems that "professional
> student" podlings are inconsistent with the idea that the Incubator is a
> process that should result in graduation or termination.
>
> > In the case of Wave, it really strikes me as odd that the community is not
> > capable of even a single release in more than 3.5 years:
> > http://incubator.apache.org/wave/downloads.html
> >
> > This suggests that ASF is being used as a GitHub of sorts. Are we comfortable
> > with this?
>
> Speaking for myself, no. I'd be uncomfortable having a specific deadline
> for graduation, but a podling that's not making progress towards
> graduation (in general, not pointing a finger specifically at Wave here)
> should be terminated.
For what it worth, I think you're right: a permanent incubator project doesn't
make sense. For once, there's a lot of people mechanics involved into
podlings' mentoring, reporting, etc. And it doesn't feel exactly right to
forever handhold something that doesn't have an intention to evolve.
Cos
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Re: Request for mentor assessment
Posted by Joe Brockmeier <jz...@zonker.net>.
On 06/12/2014 07:56 PM, Roman Shaposhnik wrote:
> This is one of the questions, I'd like to explore in greater details: are
> we comfortable with having "professional student" projects in the
> incubator?
In response to the general question, it seems that "professional
student" podlings are inconsistent with the idea that the Incubator is a
process that should result in graduation or termination.
> In the case of Wave, it really strikes me as odd that the community is not
> capable of even a single release in more than 3.5 years:
> http://incubator.apache.org/wave/downloads.html
>
> This suggests that ASF is being used as a GitHub of sorts. Are we comfortable
> with this?
Speaking for myself, no. I'd be uncomfortable having a specific deadline
for graduation, but a podling that's not making progress towards
graduation (in general, not pointing a finger specifically at Wave here)
should be terminated.
Best,
jzb
--
Joe Brockmeier
jzb@zonker.net
Twitter: @jzb
http://www.dissociatedpress.net/
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Re: Request for mentor assessment
Posted by Roman Shaposhnik <rv...@apache.org>.
On Thu, Jun 12, 2014 at 2:26 AM, Upayavira <uv...@odoko.co.uk> wrote:
> Roman,
>
> Regarding Wave, this comes up periodically. The two mentors (myself and
> Christian) are of the opinion that it sitting in the incubator is not
> doing harm.
>
> The project is definitely in need of new resource, and I wonder whether
> it will gain the necessary, but up until now, those active devs have
> wanted to stay here, and mentors have considered this acceptable.
This is one of the questions, I'd like to explore in greater details: are
we comfortable with having "professional student" projects in the
incubator?
In the case of Wave, it really strikes me as odd that the community is not
capable of even a single release in more than 3.5 years:
http://incubator.apache.org/wave/downloads.html
This suggests that ASF is being used as a GitHub of sorts. Are we comfortable
with this?
Thanks,
Roman.
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Re: Request for mentor assessment
Posted by Upayavira <uv...@odoko.co.uk>.
Roman,
Regarding Wave, this comes up periodically. The two mentors (myself and
Christian) are of the opinion that it sitting in the incubator is not
doing harm.
The project is definitely in need of new resource, and I wonder whether
it will gain the necessary, but up until now, those active devs have
wanted to stay here, and mentors have considered this acceptable.
Upayavira
On Thu, Jun 12, 2014, at 12:33 AM, Roman Shaposhnik wrote:
> Hi!
>
> I would like to kindly request some assistance
> from the mentors of the following projects: devicemap,
> kalumet, s4, wave and npanday (all CCed).
>
> I would like to figure out whether the concerns I have
> for these projects are justified and if they are, what
> would be the proposed steps for the IPMC.
>
> To be more specific:
> * DeviceMap has been in the incubator since
> 2012-01-03. It seems like it is still struggling
> with the basics: producing releases and growing
> its PMC. What's the recommendation here?
>
> * Kalumet has been in the incubator since 2011-09-20.
> On one hand, it may be ready to graduate, but there
> are also a few troubling signs. We need to get
> recommendation on how to proceed.
>
> * S4 seems to be on a trajectory for retirement. Can we,
> please, have mentors initiate that discussion in the
> community and follow up on general@ ?
>
> * Wave is similar to Kalumet in that its been incubating
> for a very long time (since 2010-12-01) but still show
> troubling signs of lack of activity, lack of releases and
> active PMC involvement.
>
> * NPanday has been incubating since 2010-08-13. Has
> a pretty consistent track record of missing reports and
> low amount of activity.
>
> And speaking of NPanday it seems to also have an additional
> complication of mentors missing in action. I am also looking
> for ideas of how to fix that. The best thought I have so far
> is to ask for volunteers to step in and help.
>
> Anyway, to make long story short, if mentors could check
> back with their projects and reply to this thread with
> concrete assessments and recommendations that would
> be awesome.
>
> Thanks,
> Roman.
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Re: Request for mentor assessment
Posted by Patrick Hunt <ph...@apache.org>.
The S4 retirement vote is in progress:
http://markmail.org/message/mkxdu6fnzmsybeq2
Patrick
On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 4:33 PM, Roman Shaposhnik <rv...@apache.org> wrote:
> Hi!
>
> I would like to kindly request some assistance
> from the mentors of the following projects: devicemap,
> kalumet, s4, wave and npanday (all CCed).
>
> I would like to figure out whether the concerns I have
> for these projects are justified and if they are, what
> would be the proposed steps for the IPMC.
>
> To be more specific:
> * DeviceMap has been in the incubator since
> 2012-01-03. It seems like it is still struggling
> with the basics: producing releases and growing
> its PMC. What's the recommendation here?
>
> * Kalumet has been in the incubator since 2011-09-20.
> On one hand, it may be ready to graduate, but there
> are also a few troubling signs. We need to get
> recommendation on how to proceed.
>
> * S4 seems to be on a trajectory for retirement. Can we,
> please, have mentors initiate that discussion in the
> community and follow up on general@ ?
>
> * Wave is similar to Kalumet in that its been incubating
> for a very long time (since 2010-12-01) but still show
> troubling signs of lack of activity, lack of releases and
> active PMC involvement.
>
> * NPanday has been incubating since 2010-08-13. Has
> a pretty consistent track record of missing reports and
> low amount of activity.
>
> And speaking of NPanday it seems to also have an additional
> complication of mentors missing in action. I am also looking
> for ideas of how to fix that. The best thought I have so far
> is to ask for volunteers to step in and help.
>
> Anyway, to make long story short, if mentors could check
> back with their projects and reply to this thread with
> concrete assessments and recommendations that would
> be awesome.
>
> Thanks,
> Roman.
>
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Re: Request for mentor assessment
Posted by Roman Shaposhnik <rv...@apache.org>.
On Fri, Jun 13, 2014 at 2:00 AM, Justin Mclean <ju...@classsoftware.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I pinged Kalumet on their dev list and they seem keep to continue.
Hm. It would be useful if we could come up with concrete steps to move
this project in a particular direction. But even before that happens, I'd
like to make sure that there's at least one active mentor who can help
us help the podling. So far, not a single mentor reacted to the pinging
wrt. the status of the project.
Thanks,
Roman.
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Re: Request for mentor assessment
Posted by Justin Mclean <ju...@classsoftware.com>.
Hi,
I pinged Kalumet on their dev list and they seem keep to continue.
Thanks,
Justin
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Re: Request for mentor assessment
Posted by Konstantin Boudnik <co...@apache.org>.
Sure Chris.
I'll send an email to dev@ list offering help.
Cos
On Mon, Jun 16, 2014 at 06:54PM, Chris Douglas wrote:
> Tez is ready to graduate. Cos, if you can help us manage that process,
> it'd certainly be appreciated. -C
>
> On Mon, Jun 16, 2014 at 12:53 PM, Konstantin Boudnik <co...@apache.org> wrote:
> > I share the sentiment with NPanday - doesn't seem like anything is happening
> > there really.
> >
> > If it of an interest to the incubator, I will volunteer to help mentoring Tez.
> >
> > Cos
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Jun 13, 2014 at 12:55AM, Mattmann, Chris A (3980) wrote:
> >> I think Tez needs some more help mentoring. I myself haven't had
> >> as much time as possible so the more folks over there that can
> >> help mentor the better.
> >>
> >> Good job starting this thread, Roman.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org>
> >> Reply-To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
> >> Date: Thursday, June 12, 2014 5:44 PM
> >> To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
> >> Subject: Re: Request for mentor assessment
> >>
> >> >On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 5:47 PM, Henry Saputra <he...@gmail.com>
> >> >wrote:
> >> >> Seems like NPanday should go to attic. One mentor I asked did not even
> >> >> monitor it anymore
> >> >
> >> >I've had exactly the same experience. My plan here is to wait for folks
> >> >to chime in on this thread and for those mentors who are MiA start
> >> >different threads asking for additional (replacement) mentors.
> >> >
> >> >I really would like for things like retirement proposals to come from
> >> >somebody who's spent time getting to know the community in greater
> >> >details.
> >> >
> >> >Thanks,
> >> >Roman.
> >> >
> >> >---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> >> >For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >>
> >
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> >
>
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Re: Tez graduation [Was: Request for mentor assessment]
Posted by Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com>.
I think that this is a serious problem for Tez graduation. So far, Tez has
been essentially a one-company show and essentially all of the participants
are there because of their day jobs.
It doesn't seem like it has to be that way, but it also doesn't seem like
there are organic drives to push it a different direction.
On Fri, Jun 20, 2014 at 8:02 PM, Konstantin Boudnik <co...@apache.org> wrote:
> Ok, I've reached out to the Tez project and it seems that they are wokring
> w/
> Chris Mattmann's on the graduation process (per an email exchange
> http://s.apache.org/K7g). What has caught my attention is the PPMC
> composition
> which is pretty much uniformly represented by a group with the same
> affiliation. Given that this page
> https://tez.incubator.apache.org/team-list.html
> is up to date.
>
> If I am reading
> https://incubator.apache.org/guides/graduation.html#community
> right, the PPMC and committers composition should be diversified. Is it a
> concern for graduation from the IPMC standpoint of view?
>
> Regards,
> Cos
>
> On Mon, Jun 16, 2014 at 06:54PM, Chris Douglas wrote:
> > Tez is ready to graduate. Cos, if you can help us manage that process,
> > it'd certainly be appreciated. -C
> >
> > On Mon, Jun 16, 2014 at 12:53 PM, Konstantin Boudnik <co...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> > > I share the sentiment with NPanday - doesn't seem like anything is
> happening
> > > there really.
> > >
> > > If it of an interest to the incubator, I will volunteer to help
> mentoring Tez.
> > >
> > > Cos
> > >
> > >
> > > On Fri, Jun 13, 2014 at 12:55AM, Mattmann, Chris A (3980) wrote:
> > >> I think Tez needs some more help mentoring. I myself haven't had
> > >> as much time as possible so the more folks over there that can
> > >> help mentor the better.
> > >>
> > >> Good job starting this thread, Roman.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org>
> > >> Reply-To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <
> general@incubator.apache.org>
> > >> Date: Thursday, June 12, 2014 5:44 PM
> > >> To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
> > >> Subject: Re: Request for mentor assessment
> > >>
> > >> >On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 5:47 PM, Henry Saputra <
> henry.saputra@gmail.com>
> > >> >wrote:
> > >> >> Seems like NPanday should go to attic. One mentor I asked did not
> even
> > >> >> monitor it anymore
> > >> >
> > >> >I've had exactly the same experience. My plan here is to wait for
> folks
> > >> >to chime in on this thread and for those mentors who are MiA start
> > >> >different threads asking for additional (replacement) mentors.
> > >> >
> > >> >I really would like for things like retirement proposals to come from
> > >> >somebody who's spent time getting to know the community in greater
> > >> >details.
> > >> >
> > >> >Thanks,
> > >> >Roman.
> > >> >
> > >> >---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >> >To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> > >> >For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> > >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> > >>
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > >
> >
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> >
>
Re: Tez graduation [Was: Request for mentor assessment]
Posted by Vinod Kumar Vavilapalli <vi...@apache.org>.
It looks like this page was indeed not up to date as I heard that it was up to the individual committers involved to add themselves to that page and some or more of them didn't do it. If there is a way to figure out the official list instead of depending on this page, that should address some concerns. In the mean while, one of us can tip them off to get the page updated.
Thanks
+Vinod
On Jun 21, 2014, at 10:18 PM, Henry Saputra <he...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Looks like the page is not updated because the proposal mentions more
> diverse people [1]
>
> [1] http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/TezProposal
>
> On Fri, Jun 20, 2014 at 8:02 PM, Konstantin Boudnik <co...@apache.org> wrote:
>> Ok, I've reached out to the Tez project and it seems that they are wokring w/
>> Chris Mattmann's on the graduation process (per an email exchange
>> http://s.apache.org/K7g). What has caught my attention is the PPMC composition
>> which is pretty much uniformly represented by a group with the same
>> affiliation. Given that this page https://tez.incubator.apache.org/team-list.html
>> is up to date.
>>
>> If I am reading https://incubator.apache.org/guides/graduation.html#community
>> right, the PPMC and committers composition should be diversified. Is it a
>> concern for graduation from the IPMC standpoint of view?
>>
>> Regards,
>> Cos
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 16, 2014 at 06:54PM, Chris Douglas wrote:
>>> Tez is ready to graduate. Cos, if you can help us manage that process,
>>> it'd certainly be appreciated. -C
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jun 16, 2014 at 12:53 PM, Konstantin Boudnik <co...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>> I share the sentiment with NPanday - doesn't seem like anything is happening
>>>> there really.
>>>>
>>>> If it of an interest to the incubator, I will volunteer to help mentoring Tez.
>>>>
>>>> Cos
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Jun 13, 2014 at 12:55AM, Mattmann, Chris A (3980) wrote:
>>>>> I think Tez needs some more help mentoring. I myself haven't had
>>>>> as much time as possible so the more folks over there that can
>>>>> help mentor the better.
>>>>>
>>>>> Good job starting this thread, Roman.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org>
>>>>> Reply-To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
>>>>> Date: Thursday, June 12, 2014 5:44 PM
>>>>> To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
>>>>> Subject: Re: Request for mentor assessment
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 5:47 PM, Henry Saputra <he...@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> Seems like NPanday should go to attic. One mentor I asked did not even
>>>>>>> monitor it anymore
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've had exactly the same experience. My plan here is to wait for folks
>>>>>> to chime in on this thread and for those mentors who are MiA start
>>>>>> different threads asking for additional (replacement) mentors.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I really would like for things like retirement proposals to come from
>>>>>> somebody who's spent time getting to know the community in greater
>>>>>> details.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> Roman.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
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>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
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>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
--
CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE
NOTICE: This message is intended for the use of the individual or entity to
which it is addressed and may contain information that is confidential,
privileged and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader
of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that
any printing, copying, dissemination, distribution, disclosure or
forwarding of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have
received this communication in error, please contact the sender immediately
and delete it from your system. Thank You.
Re: Tez graduation [Was: Request for mentor assessment]
Posted by Konstantin Boudnik <co...@apache.org>.
If I am not mistaken, no one really doubt the possible value of Tez
(incubating) for other open- and close-source projects. I don't think it
is an intention of the IPMC or a wider incubator community to pass the
judgement on the technical viability of a project.
What is discussed, on the other hand, is how successful said PPMC in achieving
the goal of community building and diversification. The link to the project
XML was very helpful in understanding the amount of the people involved
into the day-to-day activities. And it's great! However, the question that
remains unanswered so far - unless I've missed the answer - about the spread
of the PPMC and committers?
What is the chances of the project staying alive and vibrant if a commercial
entity will decide to cease its participation in the project?
Regards,
Cos
On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 10:51PM, Rohini Palaniswamy wrote:
> I will add my two cents in here on the diversity front as a member of the
> Pig team which has been working closely with Tez team for the past 3
> quarters.
>
> There has been a whole lot of features and design changes done in Tez
> driven by requirements from Pig and it has been a pleasure working with the
> Tez community. We have had a really good collaboration and development has
> happened at a really really fast pace both in Pig and Tez, with Pig team
> picking features from Tez snapshot builds as and when they are fixed. We
> just merged Pig on Tez branch into Pig trunk last month. Most of the
> collaboration has been through jiras and you can see a lot of linked Pig
> jiras. Pig on Tez is especially a cross-company team effort in Apache -
> Yahoo!, Hortonworks, Netflix and LinkedIn and many of the requirements and
> fixes on Tez has been driven by the security, performance and large scale
> needs of these companies. http://tinyurl.com/m5tbzxt is the list of Tez
> jiras created just by the Pig team (48 jiras). There were at least quite a
> few more created by others when we reported issues in mails.
>
> Hive of course is the other big project and Cascading is also into the mix
> now. With all the widely adopted analytics tools on top of Hadoop adding
> support for it and many companies adopting it there is very good future for
> Tez and I think it is just prejudice to call it as a commercial development
> masquerading as an Apache community. We really see it as a replacement for
> mapreduce in the near term and pleased with the current results and the
> future potential as a user and have been investing in the development of
> Tez as well with dedicated resources. We opened Pig and Hive on Tez for
> testing for users in Yahoo! in Apr and Cheolsoo opened up Pig on Tez for
> users in Netflix this month and both Netflix and Y! have plans to get it
> into production by end of the year and Linkedin also hopes to do the same.
> With this early adoption from some of the biggest users of hadoop, I am
> sure Tez will only become more stable and mature in the coming year and
> gain more traction and wider adoption with other users as well as more
> companies migrate to Hadoop 2.
>
> Regards,
> Rohini
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 9:48 PM, Roman Shaposhnik <rv...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 9:44 PM, Vinod Kumar Vavilapalli
> > <vi...@apache.org> wrote:
> > > I see two threads here
> > > - Concerns about graduation of Apache Tez project w.r.t diversity based
> > on the PPMC html page
> > > - Community related threads about things like whether diversity is a
> > hard requirement or how
> > > to grow communities.
> > >
> > > AFAICT, Hitesh's latest information on the state of the members of the
> > team
> > > (and the updated page) should allay any concerns on diversity.
> > >
> > > If people disagree, we can continue this thread along that discussion.
> > If not, we can close this topic as the graduation discussion/vote proceeds
> > here and elsewhere.
> > >
> > > The other threads may be valuable but OT IMHO and so are better forked
> > into their own threads.
> >
> > I personally think both are very closely related. Like I said, to
> > me the diversity thread is really in support of the thesis that
> > the project is capable of growing a community outside of
> > a forcing function of a single employer.
> >
> > That said, I haven't done the due diligence to form my personal
> > opinion one way or another. I am going to do it this week.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Roman.
> >
Re: Tez graduation [Was: Request for mentor assessment]
Posted by Konstantin Boudnik <co...@apache.org>.
If I am not mistaken, no one really doubt the possible value of Tez
(incubating) for other open- and close-source projects. I don't think it
is an intention of the IPMC or a wider incubator community to pass the
judgement on the technical viability of a project.
What is discussed, on the other hand, is how successful said PPMC in achieving
the goal of community building and diversification. The link to the project
XML was very helpful in understanding the amount of the people involved
into the day-to-day activities. And it's great! However, the question that
remains unanswered so far - unless I've missed the answer - about the spread
of the PPMC and committers?
What is the chances of the project staying alive and vibrant if a commercial
entity will decide to cease its participation in the project?
Regards,
Cos
On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 10:51PM, Rohini Palaniswamy wrote:
> I will add my two cents in here on the diversity front as a member of the
> Pig team which has been working closely with Tez team for the past 3
> quarters.
>
> There has been a whole lot of features and design changes done in Tez
> driven by requirements from Pig and it has been a pleasure working with the
> Tez community. We have had a really good collaboration and development has
> happened at a really really fast pace both in Pig and Tez, with Pig team
> picking features from Tez snapshot builds as and when they are fixed. We
> just merged Pig on Tez branch into Pig trunk last month. Most of the
> collaboration has been through jiras and you can see a lot of linked Pig
> jiras. Pig on Tez is especially a cross-company team effort in Apache -
> Yahoo!, Hortonworks, Netflix and LinkedIn and many of the requirements and
> fixes on Tez has been driven by the security, performance and large scale
> needs of these companies. http://tinyurl.com/m5tbzxt is the list of Tez
> jiras created just by the Pig team (48 jiras). There were at least quite a
> few more created by others when we reported issues in mails.
>
> Hive of course is the other big project and Cascading is also into the mix
> now. With all the widely adopted analytics tools on top of Hadoop adding
> support for it and many companies adopting it there is very good future for
> Tez and I think it is just prejudice to call it as a commercial development
> masquerading as an Apache community. We really see it as a replacement for
> mapreduce in the near term and pleased with the current results and the
> future potential as a user and have been investing in the development of
> Tez as well with dedicated resources. We opened Pig and Hive on Tez for
> testing for users in Yahoo! in Apr and Cheolsoo opened up Pig on Tez for
> users in Netflix this month and both Netflix and Y! have plans to get it
> into production by end of the year and Linkedin also hopes to do the same.
> With this early adoption from some of the biggest users of hadoop, I am
> sure Tez will only become more stable and mature in the coming year and
> gain more traction and wider adoption with other users as well as more
> companies migrate to Hadoop 2.
>
> Regards,
> Rohini
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 9:48 PM, Roman Shaposhnik <rv...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 9:44 PM, Vinod Kumar Vavilapalli
> > <vi...@apache.org> wrote:
> > > I see two threads here
> > > - Concerns about graduation of Apache Tez project w.r.t diversity based
> > on the PPMC html page
> > > - Community related threads about things like whether diversity is a
> > hard requirement or how
> > > to grow communities.
> > >
> > > AFAICT, Hitesh's latest information on the state of the members of the
> > team
> > > (and the updated page) should allay any concerns on diversity.
> > >
> > > If people disagree, we can continue this thread along that discussion.
> > If not, we can close this topic as the graduation discussion/vote proceeds
> > here and elsewhere.
> > >
> > > The other threads may be valuable but OT IMHO and so are better forked
> > into their own threads.
> >
> > I personally think both are very closely related. Like I said, to
> > me the diversity thread is really in support of the thesis that
> > the project is capable of growing a community outside of
> > a forcing function of a single employer.
> >
> > That said, I haven't done the due diligence to form my personal
> > opinion one way or another. I am going to do it this week.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Roman.
> >
RE: Tez graduation [Was: Request for mentor assessment]
Posted by Bikas Saha <bi...@hortonworks.com>.
I think we are on the same page here about working hard to build the
community. We need to work hard to make the community grow. I was merely
saying that how that effort converts into adoption is not something that can
be predicted. I hope that clarifies. Always looking for guidance to make the
most out of our efforts at community building and ways we can improve.
I hope the information provided in this thread helps display that we are
working hard and committed to building a vibrant Apache Tez community.
Thanks
Bikas
-----Original Message-----
From: Ted Dunning [mailto:ted.dunning@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2014 2:41 PM
To: general@incubator.apache.org
Cc: dev@tez.incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: Tez graduation [Was: Request for mentor assessment]
On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 2:23 PM, Bikas Saha <bi...@hortonworks.com> wrote:
> Community building is an organic process that grows on its own accord.
>
Really, I was going to run away for a bit, but my feeling is that this
statement is amazingly naive about how communities are built.
Community doesn't just happen. Community doesn't just grow of its own
accord. Community grows when people make serious, explicit actions to help
it grow, to bring in newcomers, to publish plans in many places *before*
code is written.
Building community is hard work that you have to intend to do. If you don't
do the work, it won't just happen any more than code writes itself.
--
CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE
NOTICE: This message is intended for the use of the individual or entity to
which it is addressed and may contain information that is confidential,
privileged and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader
of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that
any printing, copying, dissemination, distribution, disclosure or
forwarding of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have
received this communication in error, please contact the sender immediately
and delete it from your system. Thank You.
RE: Tez graduation [Was: Request for mentor assessment]
Posted by Bikas Saha <bi...@hortonworks.com>.
I think we are on the same page here about working hard to build the
community. We need to work hard to make the community grow. I was merely
saying that how that effort converts into adoption is not something that can
be predicted. I hope that clarifies. Always looking for guidance to make the
most out of our efforts at community building and ways we can improve.
I hope the information provided in this thread helps display that we are
working hard and committed to building a vibrant Apache Tez community.
Thanks
Bikas
-----Original Message-----
From: Ted Dunning [mailto:ted.dunning@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2014 2:41 PM
To: general@incubator.apache.org
Cc: dev@tez.incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: Tez graduation [Was: Request for mentor assessment]
On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 2:23 PM, Bikas Saha <bi...@hortonworks.com> wrote:
> Community building is an organic process that grows on its own accord.
>
Really, I was going to run away for a bit, but my feeling is that this
statement is amazingly naive about how communities are built.
Community doesn't just happen. Community doesn't just grow of its own
accord. Community grows when people make serious, explicit actions to help
it grow, to bring in newcomers, to publish plans in many places *before*
code is written.
Building community is hard work that you have to intend to do. If you don't
do the work, it won't just happen any more than code writes itself.
--
CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE
NOTICE: This message is intended for the use of the individual or entity to
which it is addressed and may contain information that is confidential,
privileged and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader
of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that
any printing, copying, dissemination, distribution, disclosure or
forwarding of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have
received this communication in error, please contact the sender immediately
and delete it from your system. Thank You.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Tez graduation [Was: Request for mentor assessment]
Posted by Chris Douglas <cd...@apache.org>.
I'll detail why I think Tez is ready to graduate.
Nobody is concerned about its activity, relevance, or ability to
produce releases. So I won't belabor those points. Let's focus on
whether the Tez project is approachable as a project and as a
community.
Posting project plans and discussing them on JIRA does not appear to
be a problem, now. Early in its incubation there were some periods of
inactivity followed by a deluge of issues, filed and committed with
minimal discussion. However, of the issues I'm watching recently, most
of the discussion- including semantic issues much easier to work out
intra-office- are on-list. By way of example, TEZ-1157 is one random
issue I subscribe to: it discusses tradeoffs, cross-references other
JIRAs, and is accessible to someone familiar with the problem, but not
employed at Hortonworks. I haven't kept statistics, but I usually scan
the list to track it's progress every couple weeks. Recently, my
impression is that it's been a steady stream not only of code, but
also debate.
Before they were nominated as committers, I also recognized names from
other organizations- like Mohammad Islam who I know from the Oozie
project- interacting on the dev list and posting code. Going to the
back of my archive, even early issues from external contributors- like
TEZ-235- received review comments and attention from committers. When
they appear, contributors are welcomed. Tez has been presented often
and at many levels of detail. I doubt any source for contributors has
been passed over deliberately, so if you know of meetups/hackathons
where Tez might present: invite them.
We should be equally frank about its challenges. Tez is not an easy
project to learn. Some of this is a technical barrier that could be
overcome by more documentation, wiki content (how to develop, where
code lives, etc.), and strategies like maintaining a list of "newbie"
issues. These are all reasonable expectations of an Apache project.
Most contributors will put up with review comment latency, but
orientation could be less painful than it is. That these materials are
not developed speaks to the effect that Ted alludes to: most people
who work on Tez have a compelling, professional reason to propel them
through the steep learning curve. The code is less volatile than it
was initially, so an investment in docs could be worthwhile.
All of these are suggestions for that community to grow its base and
are not a prerequisite for graduation. The project cuts releases,
develops actively in the open, and has absorbed the incubator
curriculum. Its members are aware of the challenges discussed in this
thread and will report on them to the board. In short, the community
can be trusted with all the autonomy of a TLP; continued incubation
serves no purpose.
If there exists a problem the IPMC can solve- NOTICE/LICENSE
improperly maintained, education on ASF resources/policy, bad release
hygiene- then great, let's fix it. If not, then this incubation has
concluded and we can recommend it to the board as a TLP. -C
On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 2:41 PM, Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 2:23 PM, Bikas Saha <bi...@hortonworks.com> wrote:
>
>> Community building is an organic process that grows on its own accord.
>>
>
> Really, I was going to run away for a bit, but my feeling is that this
> statement is amazingly naive about how communities are built.
>
> Community doesn't just happen. Community doesn't just grow of its own
> accord. Community grows when people make serious, explicit actions to help
> it grow, to bring in newcomers, to publish plans in many places *before*
> code is written.
>
> Building community is hard work that you have to intend to do. If you
> don't do the work, it won't just happen any more than code writes itself.
Re: Tez graduation [Was: Request for mentor assessment]
Posted by Chris Douglas <cd...@apache.org>.
I'll detail why I think Tez is ready to graduate.
Nobody is concerned about its activity, relevance, or ability to
produce releases. So I won't belabor those points. Let's focus on
whether the Tez project is approachable as a project and as a
community.
Posting project plans and discussing them on JIRA does not appear to
be a problem, now. Early in its incubation there were some periods of
inactivity followed by a deluge of issues, filed and committed with
minimal discussion. However, of the issues I'm watching recently, most
of the discussion- including semantic issues much easier to work out
intra-office- are on-list. By way of example, TEZ-1157 is one random
issue I subscribe to: it discusses tradeoffs, cross-references other
JIRAs, and is accessible to someone familiar with the problem, but not
employed at Hortonworks. I haven't kept statistics, but I usually scan
the list to track it's progress every couple weeks. Recently, my
impression is that it's been a steady stream not only of code, but
also debate.
Before they were nominated as committers, I also recognized names from
other organizations- like Mohammad Islam who I know from the Oozie
project- interacting on the dev list and posting code. Going to the
back of my archive, even early issues from external contributors- like
TEZ-235- received review comments and attention from committers. When
they appear, contributors are welcomed. Tez has been presented often
and at many levels of detail. I doubt any source for contributors has
been passed over deliberately, so if you know of meetups/hackathons
where Tez might present: invite them.
We should be equally frank about its challenges. Tez is not an easy
project to learn. Some of this is a technical barrier that could be
overcome by more documentation, wiki content (how to develop, where
code lives, etc.), and strategies like maintaining a list of "newbie"
issues. These are all reasonable expectations of an Apache project.
Most contributors will put up with review comment latency, but
orientation could be less painful than it is. That these materials are
not developed speaks to the effect that Ted alludes to: most people
who work on Tez have a compelling, professional reason to propel them
through the steep learning curve. The code is less volatile than it
was initially, so an investment in docs could be worthwhile.
All of these are suggestions for that community to grow its base and
are not a prerequisite for graduation. The project cuts releases,
develops actively in the open, and has absorbed the incubator
curriculum. Its members are aware of the challenges discussed in this
thread and will report on them to the board. In short, the community
can be trusted with all the autonomy of a TLP; continued incubation
serves no purpose.
If there exists a problem the IPMC can solve- NOTICE/LICENSE
improperly maintained, education on ASF resources/policy, bad release
hygiene- then great, let's fix it. If not, then this incubation has
concluded and we can recommend it to the board as a TLP. -C
On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 2:41 PM, Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 2:23 PM, Bikas Saha <bi...@hortonworks.com> wrote:
>
>> Community building is an organic process that grows on its own accord.
>>
>
> Really, I was going to run away for a bit, but my feeling is that this
> statement is amazingly naive about how communities are built.
>
> Community doesn't just happen. Community doesn't just grow of its own
> accord. Community grows when people make serious, explicit actions to help
> it grow, to bring in newcomers, to publish plans in many places *before*
> code is written.
>
> Building community is hard work that you have to intend to do. If you
> don't do the work, it won't just happen any more than code writes itself.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Tez graduation [Was: Request for mentor assessment]
Posted by Mohammad Islam <mi...@yahoo.com.INVALID>.
My personal experience with Tez for last few months was very good.
Although I am not from the same company from where the Tez project originally started, the Tez community was very helpful to quickly ramp me up. The community has patiently and promptly gave the constructive feedbacks/comments about my patches.
In addition, I attended a few tech-talks and presentations that originally helped me to understand its long term vision.
At the same time, I really appreciate the incubator community to ask these relevant and important questions.
Regards,
Mohammad Islam
On Monday, June 23, 2014 10:52 PM, Rohini Palaniswamy <ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
I will add my two cents in here on the diversity front as a member of the
Pig team which has been working closely with Tez team for the past 3
quarters.
There has been a whole lot of features and design changes done in Tez
driven by requirements from Pig and it has been a pleasure working with the
Tez community. We have had a really good collaboration and development has
happened at a really really fast pace both in Pig and Tez,
with Pig team
picking features from Tez snapshot builds as and when they are fixed. We
just merged Pig on Tez branch into Pig trunk last month. Most of the
collaboration has been through jiras and you can see a lot of linked Pig
jiras. Pig on Tez is especially a cross-company team effort in Apache -
Yahoo!, Hortonworks, Netflix and LinkedIn and many of the requirements and
fixes on Tez has been driven by the security, performance and large scale
needs of these companies. http://tinyurl.com/m5tbzxt is the list of Tez
jiras created just by the Pig team (48 jiras). There were at least quite a
few more created by others when we reported issues in mails.
Hive of course is the other big project and Cascading is
also into the mix
now. With all the widely adopted analytics tools on top of Hadoop adding
support for it and many companies adopting it there is very good future for
Tez and I think it is just prejudice to call it as a commercial development
masquerading as an Apache community. We really see it as a replacement for
mapreduce in the near term and pleased with the current results and the
future potential as a user and have been investing in the development of
Tez as well with dedicated resources. We opened Pig and Hive on Tez for
testing for users in Yahoo! in Apr and Cheolsoo opened up Pig on Tez for
users in Netflix this month and both Netflix and Y! have plans to get it
into production by end of the year and Linkedin also hopes to do the same.
With this early adoption from some
of the biggest users of hadoop, I am
sure Tez will only become more stable and mature in the coming year and
gain more traction and wider adoption with other users as well as more
companies migrate to Hadoop 2.
Regards,
Rohini
On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 9:48 PM, Roman Shaposhnik <rv...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 9:44 PM, Vinod Kumar Vavilapalli
> <vi...@apache.org> wrote:
> > I see two threads here
> > - Concerns about graduation of Apache Tez project w.r.t diversity
based
> on the PPMC html page
> > - Community related threads about things like whether diversity is a
> hard requirement or how
> > to grow communities.
> >
> > AFAICT, Hitesh's latest information on the state of the members of the
> team
> > (and the updated page) should allay any concerns on diversity.
> >
> > If people disagree, we can continue this thread along that discussion.
> If not, we can close this topic as the graduation discussion/vote proceeds
> here and elsewhere.
> >
> > The other threads may be valuable but OT IMHO and so are better forked
> into their own threads.
>
> I personally
think both are very closely related. Like I said, to
> me the diversity thread is really in support of the thesis that
> the project is capable of growing a community outside of
> a forcing function of a single employer.
>
> That said, I haven't done the due diligence to form my personal
> opinion one way or another. I am going to do it this week.
>
> Thanks,
> Roman.
>
Re: Tez graduation [Was: Request for mentor assessment]
Posted by Mohammad Islam <mi...@yahoo.com.INVALID>.
My personal experience with Tez for last few months was very good.
Although I am not from the same company from where the Tez project originally started, the Tez community was very helpful to quickly ramp me up. The community has patiently and promptly gave the constructive feedbacks/comments about my patches.
In addition, I attended a few tech-talks and presentations that originally helped me to understand its long term vision.
At the same time, I really appreciate the incubator community to ask these relevant and important questions.
Regards,
Mohammad Islam
On Monday, June 23, 2014 10:52 PM, Rohini Palaniswamy <ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
I will add my two cents in here on the diversity front as a member of the
Pig team which has been working closely with Tez team for the past 3
quarters.
There has been a whole lot of features and design changes done in Tez
driven by requirements from Pig and it has been a pleasure working with the
Tez community. We have had a really good collaboration and development has
happened at a really really fast pace both in Pig and Tez,
with Pig team
picking features from Tez snapshot builds as and when they are fixed. We
just merged Pig on Tez branch into Pig trunk last month. Most of the
collaboration has been through jiras and you can see a lot of linked Pig
jiras. Pig on Tez is especially a cross-company team effort in Apache -
Yahoo!, Hortonworks, Netflix and LinkedIn and many of the requirements and
fixes on Tez has been driven by the security, performance and large scale
needs of these companies. http://tinyurl.com/m5tbzxt is the list of Tez
jiras created just by the Pig team (48 jiras). There were at least quite a
few more created by others when we reported issues in mails.
Hive of course is the other big project and Cascading is
also into the mix
now. With all the widely adopted analytics tools on top of Hadoop adding
support for it and many companies adopting it there is very good future for
Tez and I think it is just prejudice to call it as a commercial development
masquerading as an Apache community. We really see it as a replacement for
mapreduce in the near term and pleased with the current results and the
future potential as a user and have been investing in the development of
Tez as well with dedicated resources. We opened Pig and Hive on Tez for
testing for users in Yahoo! in Apr and Cheolsoo opened up Pig on Tez for
users in Netflix this month and both Netflix and Y! have plans to get it
into production by end of the year and Linkedin also hopes to do the same.
With this early adoption from some
of the biggest users of hadoop, I am
sure Tez will only become more stable and mature in the coming year and
gain more traction and wider adoption with other users as well as more
companies migrate to Hadoop 2.
Regards,
Rohini
On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 9:48 PM, Roman Shaposhnik <rv...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 9:44 PM, Vinod Kumar Vavilapalli
> <vi...@apache.org> wrote:
> > I see two threads here
> > - Concerns about graduation of Apache Tez project w.r.t diversity
based
> on the PPMC html page
> > - Community related threads about things like whether diversity is a
> hard requirement or how
> > to grow communities.
> >
> > AFAICT, Hitesh's latest information on the state of the members of the
> team
> > (and the updated page) should allay any concerns on diversity.
> >
> > If people disagree, we can continue this thread along that discussion.
> If not, we can close this topic as the graduation discussion/vote proceeds
> here and elsewhere.
> >
> > The other threads may be valuable but OT IMHO and so are better forked
> into their own threads.
>
> I personally
think both are very closely related. Like I said, to
> me the diversity thread is really in support of the thesis that
> the project is capable of growing a community outside of
> a forcing function of a single employer.
>
> That said, I haven't done the due diligence to form my personal
> opinion one way or another. I am going to do it this week.
>
> Thanks,
> Roman.
>
Re: Tez graduation [Was: Request for mentor assessment]
Posted by Rohini Palaniswamy <ro...@gmail.com>.
I will add my two cents in here on the diversity front as a member of the
Pig team which has been working closely with Tez team for the past 3
quarters.
There has been a whole lot of features and design changes done in Tez
driven by requirements from Pig and it has been a pleasure working with the
Tez community. We have had a really good collaboration and development has
happened at a really really fast pace both in Pig and Tez, with Pig team
picking features from Tez snapshot builds as and when they are fixed. We
just merged Pig on Tez branch into Pig trunk last month. Most of the
collaboration has been through jiras and you can see a lot of linked Pig
jiras. Pig on Tez is especially a cross-company team effort in Apache -
Yahoo!, Hortonworks, Netflix and LinkedIn and many of the requirements and
fixes on Tez has been driven by the security, performance and large scale
needs of these companies. http://tinyurl.com/m5tbzxt is the list of Tez
jiras created just by the Pig team (48 jiras). There were at least quite a
few more created by others when we reported issues in mails.
Hive of course is the other big project and Cascading is also into the mix
now. With all the widely adopted analytics tools on top of Hadoop adding
support for it and many companies adopting it there is very good future for
Tez and I think it is just prejudice to call it as a commercial development
masquerading as an Apache community. We really see it as a replacement for
mapreduce in the near term and pleased with the current results and the
future potential as a user and have been investing in the development of
Tez as well with dedicated resources. We opened Pig and Hive on Tez for
testing for users in Yahoo! in Apr and Cheolsoo opened up Pig on Tez for
users in Netflix this month and both Netflix and Y! have plans to get it
into production by end of the year and Linkedin also hopes to do the same.
With this early adoption from some of the biggest users of hadoop, I am
sure Tez will only become more stable and mature in the coming year and
gain more traction and wider adoption with other users as well as more
companies migrate to Hadoop 2.
Regards,
Rohini
On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 9:48 PM, Roman Shaposhnik <rv...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 9:44 PM, Vinod Kumar Vavilapalli
> <vi...@apache.org> wrote:
> > I see two threads here
> > - Concerns about graduation of Apache Tez project w.r.t diversity based
> on the PPMC html page
> > - Community related threads about things like whether diversity is a
> hard requirement or how
> > to grow communities.
> >
> > AFAICT, Hitesh's latest information on the state of the members of the
> team
> > (and the updated page) should allay any concerns on diversity.
> >
> > If people disagree, we can continue this thread along that discussion.
> If not, we can close this topic as the graduation discussion/vote proceeds
> here and elsewhere.
> >
> > The other threads may be valuable but OT IMHO and so are better forked
> into their own threads.
>
> I personally think both are very closely related. Like I said, to
> me the diversity thread is really in support of the thesis that
> the project is capable of growing a community outside of
> a forcing function of a single employer.
>
> That said, I haven't done the due diligence to form my personal
> opinion one way or another. I am going to do it this week.
>
> Thanks,
> Roman.
>
Re: Tez graduation [Was: Request for mentor assessment]
Posted by Rohini Palaniswamy <ro...@gmail.com>.
I will add my two cents in here on the diversity front as a member of the
Pig team which has been working closely with Tez team for the past 3
quarters.
There has been a whole lot of features and design changes done in Tez
driven by requirements from Pig and it has been a pleasure working with the
Tez community. We have had a really good collaboration and development has
happened at a really really fast pace both in Pig and Tez, with Pig team
picking features from Tez snapshot builds as and when they are fixed. We
just merged Pig on Tez branch into Pig trunk last month. Most of the
collaboration has been through jiras and you can see a lot of linked Pig
jiras. Pig on Tez is especially a cross-company team effort in Apache -
Yahoo!, Hortonworks, Netflix and LinkedIn and many of the requirements and
fixes on Tez has been driven by the security, performance and large scale
needs of these companies. http://tinyurl.com/m5tbzxt is the list of Tez
jiras created just by the Pig team (48 jiras). There were at least quite a
few more created by others when we reported issues in mails.
Hive of course is the other big project and Cascading is also into the mix
now. With all the widely adopted analytics tools on top of Hadoop adding
support for it and many companies adopting it there is very good future for
Tez and I think it is just prejudice to call it as a commercial development
masquerading as an Apache community. We really see it as a replacement for
mapreduce in the near term and pleased with the current results and the
future potential as a user and have been investing in the development of
Tez as well with dedicated resources. We opened Pig and Hive on Tez for
testing for users in Yahoo! in Apr and Cheolsoo opened up Pig on Tez for
users in Netflix this month and both Netflix and Y! have plans to get it
into production by end of the year and Linkedin also hopes to do the same.
With this early adoption from some of the biggest users of hadoop, I am
sure Tez will only become more stable and mature in the coming year and
gain more traction and wider adoption with other users as well as more
companies migrate to Hadoop 2.
Regards,
Rohini
On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 9:48 PM, Roman Shaposhnik <rv...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 9:44 PM, Vinod Kumar Vavilapalli
> <vi...@apache.org> wrote:
> > I see two threads here
> > - Concerns about graduation of Apache Tez project w.r.t diversity based
> on the PPMC html page
> > - Community related threads about things like whether diversity is a
> hard requirement or how
> > to grow communities.
> >
> > AFAICT, Hitesh's latest information on the state of the members of the
> team
> > (and the updated page) should allay any concerns on diversity.
> >
> > If people disagree, we can continue this thread along that discussion.
> If not, we can close this topic as the graduation discussion/vote proceeds
> here and elsewhere.
> >
> > The other threads may be valuable but OT IMHO and so are better forked
> into their own threads.
>
> I personally think both are very closely related. Like I said, to
> me the diversity thread is really in support of the thesis that
> the project is capable of growing a community outside of
> a forcing function of a single employer.
>
> That said, I haven't done the due diligence to form my personal
> opinion one way or another. I am going to do it this week.
>
> Thanks,
> Roman.
>
Re: Tez graduation [Was: Request for mentor assessment]
Posted by Roman Shaposhnik <rv...@apache.org>.
On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 9:44 PM, Vinod Kumar Vavilapalli
<vi...@apache.org> wrote:
> I see two threads here
> - Concerns about graduation of Apache Tez project w.r.t diversity based on the PPMC html page
> - Community related threads about things like whether diversity is a hard requirement or how
> to grow communities.
>
> AFAICT, Hitesh's latest information on the state of the members of the team
> (and the updated page) should allay any concerns on diversity.
>
> If people disagree, we can continue this thread along that discussion. If not, we can close this topic as the graduation discussion/vote proceeds here and elsewhere.
>
> The other threads may be valuable but OT IMHO and so are better forked into their own threads.
I personally think both are very closely related. Like I said, to
me the diversity thread is really in support of the thesis that
the project is capable of growing a community outside of
a forcing function of a single employer.
That said, I haven't done the due diligence to form my personal
opinion one way or another. I am going to do it this week.
Thanks,
Roman.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Tez graduation [Was: Request for mentor assessment]
Posted by Roman Shaposhnik <rv...@apache.org>.
On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 9:44 PM, Vinod Kumar Vavilapalli
<vi...@apache.org> wrote:
> I see two threads here
> - Concerns about graduation of Apache Tez project w.r.t diversity based on the PPMC html page
> - Community related threads about things like whether diversity is a hard requirement or how
> to grow communities.
>
> AFAICT, Hitesh's latest information on the state of the members of the team
> (and the updated page) should allay any concerns on diversity.
>
> If people disagree, we can continue this thread along that discussion. If not, we can close this topic as the graduation discussion/vote proceeds here and elsewhere.
>
> The other threads may be valuable but OT IMHO and so are better forked into their own threads.
I personally think both are very closely related. Like I said, to
me the diversity thread is really in support of the thesis that
the project is capable of growing a community outside of
a forcing function of a single employer.
That said, I haven't done the due diligence to form my personal
opinion one way or another. I am going to do it this week.
Thanks,
Roman.
Re: Tez graduation [Was: Request for mentor assessment]
Posted by Vinod Kumar Vavilapalli <vi...@apache.org>.
I see two threads here
- Concerns about graduation of Apache Tez project w.r.t diversity based on the PPMC html page
- Community related threads about things like whether diversity is a hard requirement or how to grow communities.
AFAICT, Hitesh's latest information on the state of the members of the team (and the updated page) should allay any concerns on diversity.
If people disagree, we can continue this thread along that discussion. If not, we can close this topic as the graduation discussion/vote proceeds here and elsewhere.
The other threads may be valuable but OT IMHO and so are better forked into their own threads.
Thanks,
+Vinod
On Jun 23, 2014, at 4:26 PM, Roman Shaposhnik <rv...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 2:41 PM, Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 2:23 PM, Bikas Saha <bi...@hortonworks.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Community building is an organic process that grows on its own accord.
>>>
>>
>> Really, I was going to run away for a bit, but my feeling is that this
>> statement is amazingly naive about how communities are built.
>>
>> Community doesn't just happen. Community doesn't just grow of its own
>> accord. Community grows when people make serious, explicit actions to help
>> it grow, to bring in newcomers, to publish plans in many places *before*
>> code is written.
>>
>> Building community is hard work that you have to intend to do. If you
>> don't do the work, it won't just happen any more than code writes itself.\
>
> +infinity to that!
>
> And in fact, I think this is the crux of this very discussion: as part
> of the graduation criteria an incubating project needs to demonstrate
> that they have understood and mastered that art. At the end of the
> day the passing grade for incubating is based on that very criteria:
> can a project demonstrate that if allowed to the TLP status it will
> not let its community wane.
>
> Thanks,
> Roman.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
--
CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE
NOTICE: This message is intended for the use of the individual or entity to
which it is addressed and may contain information that is confidential,
privileged and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader
of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that
any printing, copying, dissemination, distribution, disclosure or
forwarding of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have
received this communication in error, please contact the sender immediately
and delete it from your system. Thank You.
Re: Tez graduation [Was: Request for mentor assessment]
Posted by Vinod Kumar Vavilapalli <vi...@apache.org>.
I see two threads here
- Concerns about graduation of Apache Tez project w.r.t diversity based on the PPMC html page
- Community related threads about things like whether diversity is a hard requirement or how to grow communities.
AFAICT, Hitesh's latest information on the state of the members of the team (and the updated page) should allay any concerns on diversity.
If people disagree, we can continue this thread along that discussion. If not, we can close this topic as the graduation discussion/vote proceeds here and elsewhere.
The other threads may be valuable but OT IMHO and so are better forked into their own threads.
Thanks,
+Vinod
On Jun 23, 2014, at 4:26 PM, Roman Shaposhnik <rv...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 2:41 PM, Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 2:23 PM, Bikas Saha <bi...@hortonworks.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Community building is an organic process that grows on its own accord.
>>>
>>
>> Really, I was going to run away for a bit, but my feeling is that this
>> statement is amazingly naive about how communities are built.
>>
>> Community doesn't just happen. Community doesn't just grow of its own
>> accord. Community grows when people make serious, explicit actions to help
>> it grow, to bring in newcomers, to publish plans in many places *before*
>> code is written.
>>
>> Building community is hard work that you have to intend to do. If you
>> don't do the work, it won't just happen any more than code writes itself.\
>
> +infinity to that!
>
> And in fact, I think this is the crux of this very discussion: as part
> of the graduation criteria an incubating project needs to demonstrate
> that they have understood and mastered that art. At the end of the
> day the passing grade for incubating is based on that very criteria:
> can a project demonstrate that if allowed to the TLP status it will
> not let its community wane.
>
> Thanks,
> Roman.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
--
CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE
NOTICE: This message is intended for the use of the individual or entity to
which it is addressed and may contain information that is confidential,
privileged and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader
of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that
any printing, copying, dissemination, distribution, disclosure or
forwarding of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have
received this communication in error, please contact the sender immediately
and delete it from your system. Thank You.
Re: Tez graduation [Was: Request for mentor assessment]
Posted by Roman Shaposhnik <rv...@apache.org>.
On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 2:41 PM, Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 2:23 PM, Bikas Saha <bi...@hortonworks.com> wrote:
>
>> Community building is an organic process that grows on its own accord.
>>
>
> Really, I was going to run away for a bit, but my feeling is that this
> statement is amazingly naive about how communities are built.
>
> Community doesn't just happen. Community doesn't just grow of its own
> accord. Community grows when people make serious, explicit actions to help
> it grow, to bring in newcomers, to publish plans in many places *before*
> code is written.
>
> Building community is hard work that you have to intend to do. If you
> don't do the work, it won't just happen any more than code writes itself.\
+infinity to that!
And in fact, I think this is the crux of this very discussion: as part
of the graduation criteria an incubating project needs to demonstrate
that they have understood and mastered that art. At the end of the
day the passing grade for incubating is based on that very criteria:
can a project demonstrate that if allowed to the TLP status it will
not let its community wane.
Thanks,
Roman.
Re: Tez graduation [Was: Request for mentor assessment]
Posted by Roman Shaposhnik <rv...@apache.org>.
On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 2:41 PM, Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 2:23 PM, Bikas Saha <bi...@hortonworks.com> wrote:
>
>> Community building is an organic process that grows on its own accord.
>>
>
> Really, I was going to run away for a bit, but my feeling is that this
> statement is amazingly naive about how communities are built.
>
> Community doesn't just happen. Community doesn't just grow of its own
> accord. Community grows when people make serious, explicit actions to help
> it grow, to bring in newcomers, to publish plans in many places *before*
> code is written.
>
> Building community is hard work that you have to intend to do. If you
> don't do the work, it won't just happen any more than code writes itself.\
+infinity to that!
And in fact, I think this is the crux of this very discussion: as part
of the graduation criteria an incubating project needs to demonstrate
that they have understood and mastered that art. At the end of the
day the passing grade for incubating is based on that very criteria:
can a project demonstrate that if allowed to the TLP status it will
not let its community wane.
Thanks,
Roman.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Tez graduation [Was: Request for mentor assessment]
Posted by Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com>.
On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 2:23 PM, Bikas Saha <bi...@hortonworks.com> wrote:
> Community building is an organic process that grows on its own accord.
>
Really, I was going to run away for a bit, but my feeling is that this
statement is amazingly naive about how communities are built.
Community doesn't just happen. Community doesn't just grow of its own
accord. Community grows when people make serious, explicit actions to help
it grow, to bring in newcomers, to publish plans in many places *before*
code is written.
Building community is hard work that you have to intend to do. If you
don't do the work, it won't just happen any more than code writes itself.
Re: Tez graduation [Was: Request for mentor assessment]
Posted by Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com>.
On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 2:23 PM, Bikas Saha <bi...@hortonworks.com> wrote:
> Community building is an organic process that grows on its own accord.
>
Really, I was going to run away for a bit, but my feeling is that this
statement is amazingly naive about how communities are built.
Community doesn't just happen. Community doesn't just grow of its own
accord. Community grows when people make serious, explicit actions to help
it grow, to bring in newcomers, to publish plans in many places *before*
code is written.
Building community is hard work that you have to intend to do. If you
don't do the work, it won't just happen any more than code writes itself.
RE: Tez graduation [Was: Request for mentor assessment]
Posted by Bikas Saha <bi...@hortonworks.com>.
Community building is an organic process that grows on its own accord.
Members can only make efforts to evangelize the project and support the
initial users of the project by answering questions and helping them out.
We have tried do our part as the initial members of the community and we
think that we have been reasonably successful towards our goals - given
the complex technical nature of the project itself.
The beginnings of community building come from being open. When the
project was still new it was important that people understand the
motivations for the project and the core technical architecture of the
code that seeded the project. In order to do that we published a series of
deep technical blogs that describe the project and its technical
architecture. http://goo.gl/sQ1QZb. There was considerable favorable
reception about the quality of this series and brought a lot of mindshare
to the project.
Next we have spoken at a number of forums about Apache Tez. Here are the
presentations that come to mind.
1) Hadoop Summit San Jose 2013
2) Hadoop Summit Amsterdam 2014
3) Beijing Big Data Technology Conference 2013
4) Bay Area Hadoop User Group 2014
5) Los Angeles Hadoop User Group 2013
6) Big Data Camp LA 2014
7) Seattle Scalability Meetup 2014
8) New York Hadoop User Group 2014
9) Hadoop Summit San Jose 2014
10) QConf San Francisco Conference 2013
11) Discovery 2020 Workshop at LBNL Berkeley
12) Big Data Gurus Meetup 2014
13) Silicon Valley Hands On Programming Meetup 2014
14) Presentation at MapR HQ on Apache Tez
The community outreach events have been spread over time and geography and
should represent substantial effort towards community building. Here is an
example of the presentations we have made. http://goo.gl/BL67o7. More than
10 out of 48 slides are specifically there to motivate people to try out
and dig deeper with Apache Tez because the main aim of these presentations
is community outreach.
The email lists are a bit of a chicken and egg situation. Initial
questions are around simpler things like installation etc. But as people
start getting deeper they start asking more technical questions and then
start contributing to the project itself. Off-late there have been much
more interesting questions around scheduling and control plane events and
it reflects increasing usage and interest in the project.
We should also look at the response times for emails on those lists.
Almost all emails get answered within 1 day and most within 1 hour. We are
a small community with strong motivation to increase our community of
users and developers by addressing their roadblocks as soon as we can.
Aside from dev mailing lists, the other measure of interaction is on the
Apache Tez jira itself. Out of the 1200 jiras opened under the Apache Tez
project about 200 have been created by non-committer community members.
Another take on community building is how other community projects are
interacting with Apache Tez. We have strong adoption from Apache Pig and
Apache Hive. The Apache Pig effort has been an excellent example of cross
company collaboration done under the Apache umbrella with members from
Yahoo, LinkedIn, Netflix and Hortonworks. Apache Flink is a new incubator
project that is experimenting with integrating with Tez and shows a
positive outcome of the community outreach efforts. Adoption creates the
greatest support for project sustainability because the adopters have
interest in making sure that the project stays alive and continues to meet
their needs.
As an example of the interest shown by Apache Hive and Apache Pig in Tez
there have been multiple public talks by members of those communities
about how they have integrated with success with Apache Tez.
1) Bay Area Hadoop User Group 2014 (both Hive and Pig)
2) Hadoop Summit San Jose 2014 (both Hive and Pig)
Over the last few months we have been receiving active contributions in
quality and volume that enabled us to add a number of new committers.
Since their contributions were fairly obvious because of their
interactions with existing committers on the jiras, there wasn't much
discussion on the vote thread itself.
Finally, our 0.5 release is targeting community adoption and user adoption
by considerably simplifying the API for the project because we have
received feedback of that area being the specially challenging for
newcomers.
I hope these examples will help allay any doubts about the efforts and
success at building out the community around Apache Tez.
Thanks
Bikas
-----Original Message-----
From: Mattmann, Chris A (3980) [mailto:chris.a.mattmann@jpl.nasa.gov]
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2014 1:46 PM
To: general@incubator.apache.org
Cc: dev@tez.incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: Tez graduation [Was: Request for mentor assessment]
Thanks Ted, appreciate it and we will make sure to address your comments
and sincerely appreciate the time you took to type your replies and do
your research. It will no doubt help the community and thank you again.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Chris Mattmann, Ph.D.
Chief Architect
Instrument Software and Science Data Systems Section (398) NASA Jet
Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109 USA
Office: 168-519, Mailstop: 168-527
Email: chris.a.mattmann@nasa.gov
WWW: http://sunset.usc.edu/~mattmann/
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Adjunct Associate Professor, Computer Science Department University of
Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089 USA
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
-----Original Message-----
From: Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com>
Reply-To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
Date: Monday, June 23, 2014 1:39 PM
To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
Cc: "dev@tez.incubator.apache.org" <de...@tez.incubator.apache.org>
Subject: Re: Tez graduation [Was: Request for mentor assessment]
>I will look as soon as possible. I am on a trip right now and am
>occupied with day job stuff >12 hours a day.
>
>If you don't hear from me in a short time, move forward based in your
>best judgment. I trust the group to consider my impressions and to
>think about what merit they may (or may not) have.
>
>Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Jun 23, 2014, at 23:27, "Mattmann, Chris A (3980)"
>><ch...@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
>>
>>
>> I'll now wait to see what Ted thinks, but as far as I'm concerned you
>> guys are moving in the direction I suspected (graduation) based on my
>> admittedly limited searching of mail archives and basic metrics done
>> the other day.
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
--
CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE
NOTICE: This message is intended for the use of the individual or entity to
which it is addressed and may contain information that is confidential,
privileged and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader
of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that
any printing, copying, dissemination, distribution, disclosure or
forwarding of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have
received this communication in error, please contact the sender immediately
and delete it from your system. Thank You.
RE: Tez graduation [Was: Request for mentor assessment]
Posted by Bikas Saha <bi...@hortonworks.com>.
Community building is an organic process that grows on its own accord.
Members can only make efforts to evangelize the project and support the
initial users of the project by answering questions and helping them out.
We have tried do our part as the initial members of the community and we
think that we have been reasonably successful towards our goals - given
the complex technical nature of the project itself.
The beginnings of community building come from being open. When the
project was still new it was important that people understand the
motivations for the project and the core technical architecture of the
code that seeded the project. In order to do that we published a series of
deep technical blogs that describe the project and its technical
architecture. http://goo.gl/sQ1QZb. There was considerable favorable
reception about the quality of this series and brought a lot of mindshare
to the project.
Next we have spoken at a number of forums about Apache Tez. Here are the
presentations that come to mind.
1) Hadoop Summit San Jose 2013
2) Hadoop Summit Amsterdam 2014
3) Beijing Big Data Technology Conference 2013
4) Bay Area Hadoop User Group 2014
5) Los Angeles Hadoop User Group 2013
6) Big Data Camp LA 2014
7) Seattle Scalability Meetup 2014
8) New York Hadoop User Group 2014
9) Hadoop Summit San Jose 2014
10) QConf San Francisco Conference 2013
11) Discovery 2020 Workshop at LBNL Berkeley
12) Big Data Gurus Meetup 2014
13) Silicon Valley Hands On Programming Meetup 2014
14) Presentation at MapR HQ on Apache Tez
The community outreach events have been spread over time and geography and
should represent substantial effort towards community building. Here is an
example of the presentations we have made. http://goo.gl/BL67o7. More than
10 out of 48 slides are specifically there to motivate people to try out
and dig deeper with Apache Tez because the main aim of these presentations
is community outreach.
The email lists are a bit of a chicken and egg situation. Initial
questions are around simpler things like installation etc. But as people
start getting deeper they start asking more technical questions and then
start contributing to the project itself. Off-late there have been much
more interesting questions around scheduling and control plane events and
it reflects increasing usage and interest in the project.
We should also look at the response times for emails on those lists.
Almost all emails get answered within 1 day and most within 1 hour. We are
a small community with strong motivation to increase our community of
users and developers by addressing their roadblocks as soon as we can.
Aside from dev mailing lists, the other measure of interaction is on the
Apache Tez jira itself. Out of the 1200 jiras opened under the Apache Tez
project about 200 have been created by non-committer community members.
Another take on community building is how other community projects are
interacting with Apache Tez. We have strong adoption from Apache Pig and
Apache Hive. The Apache Pig effort has been an excellent example of cross
company collaboration done under the Apache umbrella with members from
Yahoo, LinkedIn, Netflix and Hortonworks. Apache Flink is a new incubator
project that is experimenting with integrating with Tez and shows a
positive outcome of the community outreach efforts. Adoption creates the
greatest support for project sustainability because the adopters have
interest in making sure that the project stays alive and continues to meet
their needs.
As an example of the interest shown by Apache Hive and Apache Pig in Tez
there have been multiple public talks by members of those communities
about how they have integrated with success with Apache Tez.
1) Bay Area Hadoop User Group 2014 (both Hive and Pig)
2) Hadoop Summit San Jose 2014 (both Hive and Pig)
Over the last few months we have been receiving active contributions in
quality and volume that enabled us to add a number of new committers.
Since their contributions were fairly obvious because of their
interactions with existing committers on the jiras, there wasn't much
discussion on the vote thread itself.
Finally, our 0.5 release is targeting community adoption and user adoption
by considerably simplifying the API for the project because we have
received feedback of that area being the specially challenging for
newcomers.
I hope these examples will help allay any doubts about the efforts and
success at building out the community around Apache Tez.
Thanks
Bikas
-----Original Message-----
From: Mattmann, Chris A (3980) [mailto:chris.a.mattmann@jpl.nasa.gov]
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2014 1:46 PM
To: general@incubator.apache.org
Cc: dev@tez.incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: Tez graduation [Was: Request for mentor assessment]
Thanks Ted, appreciate it and we will make sure to address your comments
and sincerely appreciate the time you took to type your replies and do
your research. It will no doubt help the community and thank you again.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Chris Mattmann, Ph.D.
Chief Architect
Instrument Software and Science Data Systems Section (398) NASA Jet
Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109 USA
Office: 168-519, Mailstop: 168-527
Email: chris.a.mattmann@nasa.gov
WWW: http://sunset.usc.edu/~mattmann/
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Adjunct Associate Professor, Computer Science Department University of
Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089 USA
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
-----Original Message-----
From: Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com>
Reply-To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
Date: Monday, June 23, 2014 1:39 PM
To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
Cc: "dev@tez.incubator.apache.org" <de...@tez.incubator.apache.org>
Subject: Re: Tez graduation [Was: Request for mentor assessment]
>I will look as soon as possible. I am on a trip right now and am
>occupied with day job stuff >12 hours a day.
>
>If you don't hear from me in a short time, move forward based in your
>best judgment. I trust the group to consider my impressions and to
>think about what merit they may (or may not) have.
>
>Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Jun 23, 2014, at 23:27, "Mattmann, Chris A (3980)"
>><ch...@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
>>
>>
>> I'll now wait to see what Ted thinks, but as far as I'm concerned you
>> guys are moving in the direction I suspected (graduation) based on my
>> admittedly limited searching of mail archives and basic metrics done
>> the other day.
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
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Re: Tez graduation [Was: Request for mentor assessment]
Posted by "Mattmann, Chris A (3980)" <ch...@jpl.nasa.gov>.
Thanks Ted, appreciate it and we will make sure to address your comments
and sincerely appreciate the time you took to type your replies and
do your research. It will no doubt help the community and thank you again.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Chris Mattmann, Ph.D.
Chief Architect
Instrument Software and Science Data Systems Section (398)
NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109 USA
Office: 168-519, Mailstop: 168-527
Email: chris.a.mattmann@nasa.gov
WWW: http://sunset.usc.edu/~mattmann/
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Adjunct Associate Professor, Computer Science Department
University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089 USA
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
-----Original Message-----
From: Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com>
Reply-To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
Date: Monday, June 23, 2014 1:39 PM
To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
Cc: "dev@tez.incubator.apache.org" <de...@tez.incubator.apache.org>
Subject: Re: Tez graduation [Was: Request for mentor assessment]
>I will look as soon as possible. I am on a trip right now and am occupied
>with day job stuff >12 hours a day.
>
>If you don't hear from me in a short time, move forward based in your
>best judgment. I trust the group to consider my impressions and to think
>about what merit they may (or may not) have.
>
>Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Jun 23, 2014, at 23:27, "Mattmann, Chris A (3980)"
>><ch...@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
>>
>>
>> I'll now wait to see what Ted thinks, but as far as I'm concerned you
>> guys are moving in the direction I suspected (graduation) based on my
>> admittedly limited searching of mail archives and basic metrics done
>> the other day.
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
Re: Tez graduation [Was: Request for mentor assessment]
Posted by "Mattmann, Chris A (3980)" <ch...@jpl.nasa.gov>.
Thanks Ted, appreciate it and we will make sure to address your comments
and sincerely appreciate the time you took to type your replies and
do your research. It will no doubt help the community and thank you again.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Chris Mattmann, Ph.D.
Chief Architect
Instrument Software and Science Data Systems Section (398)
NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109 USA
Office: 168-519, Mailstop: 168-527
Email: chris.a.mattmann@nasa.gov
WWW: http://sunset.usc.edu/~mattmann/
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Adjunct Associate Professor, Computer Science Department
University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089 USA
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
-----Original Message-----
From: Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com>
Reply-To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
Date: Monday, June 23, 2014 1:39 PM
To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
Cc: "dev@tez.incubator.apache.org" <de...@tez.incubator.apache.org>
Subject: Re: Tez graduation [Was: Request for mentor assessment]
>I will look as soon as possible. I am on a trip right now and am occupied
>with day job stuff >12 hours a day.
>
>If you don't hear from me in a short time, move forward based in your
>best judgment. I trust the group to consider my impressions and to think
>about what merit they may (or may not) have.
>
>Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Jun 23, 2014, at 23:27, "Mattmann, Chris A (3980)"
>><ch...@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
>>
>>
>> I'll now wait to see what Ted thinks, but as far as I'm concerned you
>> guys are moving in the direction I suspected (graduation) based on my
>> admittedly limited searching of mail archives and basic metrics done
>> the other day.
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Tez graduation [Was: Request for mentor assessment]
Posted by Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com>.
I will look as soon as possible. I am on a trip right now and am occupied with day job stuff >12 hours a day.
If you don't hear from me in a short time, move forward based in your best judgment. I trust the group to consider my impressions and to think about what merit they may (or may not) have.
Sent from my iPhone
> On Jun 23, 2014, at 23:27, "Mattmann, Chris A (3980)" <ch...@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
>
>
> I'll now wait to see what Ted thinks, but as far as I'm concerned you
> guys are moving in the direction I suspected (graduation) based on my
> admittedly limited searching of mail archives and basic metrics done
> the other day.
Re: Tez graduation [Was: Request for mentor assessment]
Posted by Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com>.
I will look as soon as possible. I am on a trip right now and am occupied with day job stuff >12 hours a day.
If you don't hear from me in a short time, move forward based in your best judgment. I trust the group to consider my impressions and to think about what merit they may (or may not) have.
Sent from my iPhone
> On Jun 23, 2014, at 23:27, "Mattmann, Chris A (3980)" <ch...@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
>
>
> I'll now wait to see what Ted thinks, but as far as I'm concerned you
> guys are moving in the direction I suspected (graduation) based on my
> admittedly limited searching of mail archives and basic metrics done
> the other day.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Tez graduation [Was: Request for mentor assessment]
Posted by "Mattmann, Chris A (3980)" <ch...@jpl.nasa.gov>.
Thanks Hitesh, this is great data too. I also found the issues list
to be a gold source of conversation.
I'll now wait to see what Ted thinks, but as far as I'm concerned you
guys are moving in the direction I suspected (graduation) based on my
admittedly limited searching of mail archives and basic metrics done
the other day.
I'll wait on this for a few days and let the conversation develop.
This is the great thing about a DISCUSS thread - discussion happens! :)
Cheers,
Chris
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Chris Mattmann, Ph.D.
Chief Architect
Instrument Software and Science Data Systems Section (398)
NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109 USA
Office: 168-519, Mailstop: 168-527
Email: chris.a.mattmann@nasa.gov
WWW: http://sunset.usc.edu/~mattmann/
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Adjunct Associate Professor, Computer Science Department
University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089 USA
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
-----Original Message-----
From: Hitesh Shah <hi...@apache.org>
Reply-To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
Date: Monday, June 23, 2014 1:20 PM
To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
Cc: "dev@tez.incubator.apache.org" <de...@tez.incubator.apache.org>
Subject: Re: Tez graduation [Was: Request for mentor assessment]
>Hi folks,
>
>To be very clear, the project's source of truth has always been its
>status file:
>https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/incubator/public/trunk/content/projects/t
>ez.xml
>
>For the tez website, http://tez.incubator.apache.org/team-list.html, the
>onus was for the committers to test out their commit privileges, update
>the teamlist in the source tree and publish the updated website. I
>understand it has created a lot of confusion for folks outside of the
>project. I will go ahead and update the internal list to match the source
>of truth.
>
>Even though I am well aware that some of the initial committers on the
>incubator proposal have not been active ( my take on active is as simple
>as sending a single mail to any mailing list ) on the project since
>inception, my understanding had been that all committers and mentors from
>an incubator podling become PMC for the top level project when it
>graduates. Is my understanding incorrect? In any case, to directly
>address the diversity question, I believe the PMC would have members from
>companies such as Hortonworks, Yahoo, LinkedIn, Twitter to name a few.
>
>As for our community, we have had multiple talks and meetups both on Tez
>alone as well as ones with the folks from Hive and Pig.
> - http://www.meetup.com/Apache-Tez-User-Group. The only meetup we have
>had till date had a detailed talk on Tez in addition to presentations
>from folks from Hive and Pig on how they were using or planning to use
>Tez.
> - There was a whole evening devoted to Tez and applications on Tez as
>part of the Bay Area Hadoop User Group -
>http://www.meetup.com/hadoop/events/116895522/
> - Talks - there have been quite a few talks on it over the past year.
>For example, one can look at the recently completed Hadoop Summit in San
>Jose and search for Tez related talks of which only one talk was just
>about Tez and the others about applications built on top of it.
>
>We have been working with the Hive and Pig folks mostly via JIRA to
>address their requirements as they built out their platforms to work on
>Tez. One can look at https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/HIVE-4660 and
>https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/PIG-3446 to see the considerable
>amount of work both these communities have put in to get their respective
>applications to work on top of Tez. Most of the interaction has been on
>JIRA and not really on the dev mailing lists. Most design discussions
>also tend to happen there. Subscribing to issues@ might give one a better
>perspective on community interaction.
>
>To be frank, the Tez community for the past year has been working towards
>helping make Apache Hive and Apache Pig faster. As the platform evolves
>and grows, other applications such as Flink are considering it too.
>Hopefully, at some point down the line, we would like to work with the
>MapReduce community to have them consider using Tez.
>
>thanks
>‹ Hitesh
>
>On Jun 23, 2014, at 12:50 AM, Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Let me repeat that my desired outcome here is Tez graduation.
>>
>> It is just that I want to see Tez graduate as a viable project.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 12:43 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (3980) <
>> chris.a.mattmann@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks Ted, these are all important points that require responses. I
>>>have
>>> CC'ed the dev@tez.i.a.o
>>> list, where I hope the Tez community can respond to your points below
>>>in
>>> detail.
>>>
>>> Guys, please see Ted's comments below and please try to address them in
>>> light of the
>>>
>>> recent [DISCUSS] Graduation thread I raised. It's fine if the answer to
>>> some of the
>>> points is (1) we plan on addressing them by X date, with Y action; (2)
>>>we
>>> don't think
>>> this is a valid point *because* ..*explanation*; (3) you didn't
>>>consider
>>> this factoid
>>> _here_, etc.
>>>
>>> I'm hoping the other mentors on the project can step up and have some
>>> insight
>>> into the below. I look forward to the discussion.
>>>
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Chris
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com>
>>> Reply-To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
>>> Date: Monday, June 23, 2014 12:12 AM
>>> To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
>>> Subject: Re: Tez graduation [Was: Request for mentor assessment]
>>>
>>>> On Sun, Jun 22, 2014 at 9:33 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (3980) <
>>>> chris.a.mattmann@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> Regardless of whether it is an explicit requirement to have some
>>>>> specific
>>>>>> level of diversity, there is a requirement that the group
>>>>>>demonstrate
>>>>>> community building.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm also sympathetic to this: you can see my thread here where
>>>>> originally
>>>>> I didn't
>>>>> think much had been going on until I explicitly checked the lists and
>>>>> went
>>>>> through
>>>>> the archives and saw ~7 IIRC PPMC members/committers added since
>>>>> entering
>>>>> [1]. That's
>>>>> community building regardless of what affiliation those new members
>>>>>came
>>>>> from.
>>>>>
>>>>> The other metrics and statistics (health of the mailing lists/open
>>>>> discussions have
>>>>> been increasing; releases have been made, etc.) are all there and
>>>>> outlined
>>>>> in [1].
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> As I read the private list, there has been absolutely no effort at
>>>>adding
>>>> committers until last month when the topic of graduation has come up.
>>>> There
>>>> is no substantive discussion on the list of the potential committers,
>>>>but
>>>> simply rather perfunctory +1 votes.
>>>>
>>>> In reading the thread about whether there should be/is a diversity
>>>> requirement, I come to a bit of a different conclusion as well. What
>>>>I
>>>> see
>>>> in the discussion is that the participants seem to agree that
>>>>
>>>> - there should not be a simple count-based diversity measure because
>>>>this
>>>> would dissuade valuable commercial contributions
>>>>
>>>> - the chance/likelihood of project failure due to a dominant
>>>>commercial
>>>> contributor pulling out should not be considered since project
>>>>dormancy or
>>>> retirement isn't a bad thing. Better to try and fail than never try.
>>>>
>>>> - there is clear recognition of the risk of commercial companies
>>>>inventing
>>>> a project not so much because of a desire to build community but
>>>>rather as
>>>> a marketing maneuver.
>>>>
>>>> - there is no mention of the problems that have arisen in the Hadoop
>>>> groups
>>>> relative to use of groups and Apache trademarks for marketing
>>>>purposes.
>>>>
>>>> I don't want to impute motives to actions since I cannot know what
>>>>others
>>>> hold in their hearts, but I don't see evidence of efforts to really
>>>>build
>>>> the community. There was one meat-space meetup a year ago. There
>>>>have
>>>> been a few presentations of what Tez is.
>>>>
>>>> I do see a fair number of public statements of the form "Tez is
>>>> Hortonworks
>>>> answer to Impala" or "The future of Hadoop runs on Tez", most of which
>>>> seem
>>>> to come out of Hortonworks' marketing department.
>>>>
>>>> In looking at the dev list back to September of last year, I see a
>>>>large
>>>> number of procedural messages (votes, results, release mechanics), a
>>>>few
>>>> user questions (NPE in such and so, how do I install) and very few
>>>>design
>>>> discussions. There was one thread last November about combiners,
>>>>another
>>>> in January about map parallelism, and one more in March about reducer
>>>> parallelism. To me this looks a lot like a project where all design
>>>> discussions are occurring off-list.
>>>>
>>>> What I would like to see would include
>>>>
>>>> - a strong effort on the part of Tez to bring all design and
>>>> implementation
>>>> discussions to the list,
>>>>
>>>> - continuous community engagement efforts such as weekly hangouts in
>>>> different timezones to help new contributors understand what is
>>>>happening
>>>> technically in the project in an interactive setting
>>>>
>>>> - lots of public talks focussed on how outsiders can contribute and
>>>>how
>>>> the
>>>> design works
>>>>
>>>> - cross posting on related projects offering cross pollination
>>>> opportunities. Such related groups might be Drill, Optiq, Tajo and
>>>>Spark.
>>>> These postings would say things like "how could you guys help us with
>>>> Tez"
>>>> or "Tez has this and such, would that be helpful to you guys".
>>>>
>>>> - inviting contributors from related projects to give technical
>>>> presentations in the context of Tez
>>>>
>>>> Now, my searches have been fairly cursory and could have missed
>>>>important
>>>> activities, but I have a bit of a hard time believing that I have
>>>>missed
>>>> major efforts along these lines.
>>>>
>>>> Based on this evidence, it really does look to me like Tez is a purely
>>>> commercial development masquerading as an Apache community.
>>>>
>>>> I agree that superficial diversity metrics are counter-productive,
>>>>but I
>>>> also assert that there isn't any obvious evidence of serious community
>>>> building here and there is significant evidence that building
>>>>community
>>>> isn't even the point of the project. That *is* a substantive issue
>>>> relative to graduation.
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>
>>>
>
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
Re: Tez graduation [Was: Request for mentor assessment]
Posted by "Mattmann, Chris A (3980)" <ch...@jpl.nasa.gov>.
Thanks Hitesh, this is great data too. I also found the issues list
to be a gold source of conversation.
I'll now wait to see what Ted thinks, but as far as I'm concerned you
guys are moving in the direction I suspected (graduation) based on my
admittedly limited searching of mail archives and basic metrics done
the other day.
I'll wait on this for a few days and let the conversation develop.
This is the great thing about a DISCUSS thread - discussion happens! :)
Cheers,
Chris
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Chris Mattmann, Ph.D.
Chief Architect
Instrument Software and Science Data Systems Section (398)
NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109 USA
Office: 168-519, Mailstop: 168-527
Email: chris.a.mattmann@nasa.gov
WWW: http://sunset.usc.edu/~mattmann/
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Adjunct Associate Professor, Computer Science Department
University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089 USA
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
-----Original Message-----
From: Hitesh Shah <hi...@apache.org>
Reply-To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
Date: Monday, June 23, 2014 1:20 PM
To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
Cc: "dev@tez.incubator.apache.org" <de...@tez.incubator.apache.org>
Subject: Re: Tez graduation [Was: Request for mentor assessment]
>Hi folks,
>
>To be very clear, the project's source of truth has always been its
>status file:
>https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/incubator/public/trunk/content/projects/t
>ez.xml
>
>For the tez website, http://tez.incubator.apache.org/team-list.html, the
>onus was for the committers to test out their commit privileges, update
>the teamlist in the source tree and publish the updated website. I
>understand it has created a lot of confusion for folks outside of the
>project. I will go ahead and update the internal list to match the source
>of truth.
>
>Even though I am well aware that some of the initial committers on the
>incubator proposal have not been active ( my take on active is as simple
>as sending a single mail to any mailing list ) on the project since
>inception, my understanding had been that all committers and mentors from
>an incubator podling become PMC for the top level project when it
>graduates. Is my understanding incorrect? In any case, to directly
>address the diversity question, I believe the PMC would have members from
>companies such as Hortonworks, Yahoo, LinkedIn, Twitter to name a few.
>
>As for our community, we have had multiple talks and meetups both on Tez
>alone as well as ones with the folks from Hive and Pig.
> - http://www.meetup.com/Apache-Tez-User-Group. The only meetup we have
>had till date had a detailed talk on Tez in addition to presentations
>from folks from Hive and Pig on how they were using or planning to use
>Tez.
> - There was a whole evening devoted to Tez and applications on Tez as
>part of the Bay Area Hadoop User Group -
>http://www.meetup.com/hadoop/events/116895522/
> - Talks - there have been quite a few talks on it over the past year.
>For example, one can look at the recently completed Hadoop Summit in San
>Jose and search for Tez related talks of which only one talk was just
>about Tez and the others about applications built on top of it.
>
>We have been working with the Hive and Pig folks mostly via JIRA to
>address their requirements as they built out their platforms to work on
>Tez. One can look at https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/HIVE-4660 and
>https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/PIG-3446 to see the considerable
>amount of work both these communities have put in to get their respective
>applications to work on top of Tez. Most of the interaction has been on
>JIRA and not really on the dev mailing lists. Most design discussions
>also tend to happen there. Subscribing to issues@ might give one a better
>perspective on community interaction.
>
>To be frank, the Tez community for the past year has been working towards
>helping make Apache Hive and Apache Pig faster. As the platform evolves
>and grows, other applications such as Flink are considering it too.
>Hopefully, at some point down the line, we would like to work with the
>MapReduce community to have them consider using Tez.
>
>thanks
>‹ Hitesh
>
>On Jun 23, 2014, at 12:50 AM, Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Let me repeat that my desired outcome here is Tez graduation.
>>
>> It is just that I want to see Tez graduate as a viable project.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 12:43 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (3980) <
>> chris.a.mattmann@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks Ted, these are all important points that require responses. I
>>>have
>>> CC'ed the dev@tez.i.a.o
>>> list, where I hope the Tez community can respond to your points below
>>>in
>>> detail.
>>>
>>> Guys, please see Ted's comments below and please try to address them in
>>> light of the
>>>
>>> recent [DISCUSS] Graduation thread I raised. It's fine if the answer to
>>> some of the
>>> points is (1) we plan on addressing them by X date, with Y action; (2)
>>>we
>>> don't think
>>> this is a valid point *because* ..*explanation*; (3) you didn't
>>>consider
>>> this factoid
>>> _here_, etc.
>>>
>>> I'm hoping the other mentors on the project can step up and have some
>>> insight
>>> into the below. I look forward to the discussion.
>>>
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Chris
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com>
>>> Reply-To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
>>> Date: Monday, June 23, 2014 12:12 AM
>>> To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
>>> Subject: Re: Tez graduation [Was: Request for mentor assessment]
>>>
>>>> On Sun, Jun 22, 2014 at 9:33 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (3980) <
>>>> chris.a.mattmann@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> Regardless of whether it is an explicit requirement to have some
>>>>> specific
>>>>>> level of diversity, there is a requirement that the group
>>>>>>demonstrate
>>>>>> community building.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm also sympathetic to this: you can see my thread here where
>>>>> originally
>>>>> I didn't
>>>>> think much had been going on until I explicitly checked the lists and
>>>>> went
>>>>> through
>>>>> the archives and saw ~7 IIRC PPMC members/committers added since
>>>>> entering
>>>>> [1]. That's
>>>>> community building regardless of what affiliation those new members
>>>>>came
>>>>> from.
>>>>>
>>>>> The other metrics and statistics (health of the mailing lists/open
>>>>> discussions have
>>>>> been increasing; releases have been made, etc.) are all there and
>>>>> outlined
>>>>> in [1].
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> As I read the private list, there has been absolutely no effort at
>>>>adding
>>>> committers until last month when the topic of graduation has come up.
>>>> There
>>>> is no substantive discussion on the list of the potential committers,
>>>>but
>>>> simply rather perfunctory +1 votes.
>>>>
>>>> In reading the thread about whether there should be/is a diversity
>>>> requirement, I come to a bit of a different conclusion as well. What
>>>>I
>>>> see
>>>> in the discussion is that the participants seem to agree that
>>>>
>>>> - there should not be a simple count-based diversity measure because
>>>>this
>>>> would dissuade valuable commercial contributions
>>>>
>>>> - the chance/likelihood of project failure due to a dominant
>>>>commercial
>>>> contributor pulling out should not be considered since project
>>>>dormancy or
>>>> retirement isn't a bad thing. Better to try and fail than never try.
>>>>
>>>> - there is clear recognition of the risk of commercial companies
>>>>inventing
>>>> a project not so much because of a desire to build community but
>>>>rather as
>>>> a marketing maneuver.
>>>>
>>>> - there is no mention of the problems that have arisen in the Hadoop
>>>> groups
>>>> relative to use of groups and Apache trademarks for marketing
>>>>purposes.
>>>>
>>>> I don't want to impute motives to actions since I cannot know what
>>>>others
>>>> hold in their hearts, but I don't see evidence of efforts to really
>>>>build
>>>> the community. There was one meat-space meetup a year ago. There
>>>>have
>>>> been a few presentations of what Tez is.
>>>>
>>>> I do see a fair number of public statements of the form "Tez is
>>>> Hortonworks
>>>> answer to Impala" or "The future of Hadoop runs on Tez", most of which
>>>> seem
>>>> to come out of Hortonworks' marketing department.
>>>>
>>>> In looking at the dev list back to September of last year, I see a
>>>>large
>>>> number of procedural messages (votes, results, release mechanics), a
>>>>few
>>>> user questions (NPE in such and so, how do I install) and very few
>>>>design
>>>> discussions. There was one thread last November about combiners,
>>>>another
>>>> in January about map parallelism, and one more in March about reducer
>>>> parallelism. To me this looks a lot like a project where all design
>>>> discussions are occurring off-list.
>>>>
>>>> What I would like to see would include
>>>>
>>>> - a strong effort on the part of Tez to bring all design and
>>>> implementation
>>>> discussions to the list,
>>>>
>>>> - continuous community engagement efforts such as weekly hangouts in
>>>> different timezones to help new contributors understand what is
>>>>happening
>>>> technically in the project in an interactive setting
>>>>
>>>> - lots of public talks focussed on how outsiders can contribute and
>>>>how
>>>> the
>>>> design works
>>>>
>>>> - cross posting on related projects offering cross pollination
>>>> opportunities. Such related groups might be Drill, Optiq, Tajo and
>>>>Spark.
>>>> These postings would say things like "how could you guys help us with
>>>> Tez"
>>>> or "Tez has this and such, would that be helpful to you guys".
>>>>
>>>> - inviting contributors from related projects to give technical
>>>> presentations in the context of Tez
>>>>
>>>> Now, my searches have been fairly cursory and could have missed
>>>>important
>>>> activities, but I have a bit of a hard time believing that I have
>>>>missed
>>>> major efforts along these lines.
>>>>
>>>> Based on this evidence, it really does look to me like Tez is a purely
>>>> commercial development masquerading as an Apache community.
>>>>
>>>> I agree that superficial diversity metrics are counter-productive,
>>>>but I
>>>> also assert that there isn't any obvious evidence of serious community
>>>> building here and there is significant evidence that building
>>>>community
>>>> isn't even the point of the project. That *is* a substantive issue
>>>> relative to graduation.
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>
>>>
>
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Tez graduation [Was: Request for mentor assessment]
Posted by Hitesh Shah <hi...@apache.org>.
Hi folks,
To be very clear, the project's source of truth has always been its status file: https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/incubator/public/trunk/content/projects/tez.xml
For the tez website, http://tez.incubator.apache.org/team-list.html, the onus was for the committers to test out their commit privileges, update the teamlist in the source tree and publish the updated website. I understand it has created a lot of confusion for folks outside of the project. I will go ahead and update the internal list to match the source of truth.
Even though I am well aware that some of the initial committers on the incubator proposal have not been active ( my take on active is as simple as sending a single mail to any mailing list ) on the project since inception, my understanding had been that all committers and mentors from an incubator podling become PMC for the top level project when it graduates. Is my understanding incorrect? In any case, to directly address the diversity question, I believe the PMC would have members from companies such as Hortonworks, Yahoo, LinkedIn, Twitter to name a few.
As for our community, we have had multiple talks and meetups both on Tez alone as well as ones with the folks from Hive and Pig.
- http://www.meetup.com/Apache-Tez-User-Group. The only meetup we have had till date had a detailed talk on Tez in addition to presentations from folks from Hive and Pig on how they were using or planning to use Tez.
- There was a whole evening devoted to Tez and applications on Tez as part of the Bay Area Hadoop User Group - http://www.meetup.com/hadoop/events/116895522/
- Talks - there have been quite a few talks on it over the past year. For example, one can look at the recently completed Hadoop Summit in San Jose and search for Tez related talks of which only one talk was just about Tez and the others about applications built on top of it.
We have been working with the Hive and Pig folks mostly via JIRA to address their requirements as they built out their platforms to work on Tez. One can look at https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/HIVE-4660 and https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/PIG-3446 to see the considerable amount of work both these communities have put in to get their respective applications to work on top of Tez. Most of the interaction has been on JIRA and not really on the dev mailing lists. Most design discussions also tend to happen there. Subscribing to issues@ might give one a better perspective on community interaction.
To be frank, the Tez community for the past year has been working towards helping make Apache Hive and Apache Pig faster. As the platform evolves and grows, other applications such as Flink are considering it too. Hopefully, at some point down the line, we would like to work with the MapReduce community to have them consider using Tez.
thanks
— Hitesh
On Jun 23, 2014, at 12:50 AM, Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Let me repeat that my desired outcome here is Tez graduation.
>
> It is just that I want to see Tez graduate as a viable project.
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 12:43 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (3980) <
> chris.a.mattmann@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
>
>> Thanks Ted, these are all important points that require responses. I have
>> CC'ed the dev@tez.i.a.o
>> list, where I hope the Tez community can respond to your points below in
>> detail.
>>
>> Guys, please see Ted's comments below and please try to address them in
>> light of the
>>
>> recent [DISCUSS] Graduation thread I raised. It's fine if the answer to
>> some of the
>> points is (1) we plan on addressing them by X date, with Y action; (2) we
>> don't think
>> this is a valid point *because* ..*explanation*; (3) you didn't consider
>> this factoid
>> _here_, etc.
>>
>> I'm hoping the other mentors on the project can step up and have some
>> insight
>> into the below. I look forward to the discussion.
>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Chris
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com>
>> Reply-To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
>> Date: Monday, June 23, 2014 12:12 AM
>> To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
>> Subject: Re: Tez graduation [Was: Request for mentor assessment]
>>
>>> On Sun, Jun 22, 2014 at 9:33 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (3980) <
>>> chris.a.mattmann@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Regardless of whether it is an explicit requirement to have some
>>>> specific
>>>>> level of diversity, there is a requirement that the group demonstrate
>>>>> community building.
>>>>
>>>> I'm also sympathetic to this: you can see my thread here where
>>>> originally
>>>> I didn't
>>>> think much had been going on until I explicitly checked the lists and
>>>> went
>>>> through
>>>> the archives and saw ~7 IIRC PPMC members/committers added since
>>>> entering
>>>> [1]. That's
>>>> community building regardless of what affiliation those new members came
>>>> from.
>>>>
>>>> The other metrics and statistics (health of the mailing lists/open
>>>> discussions have
>>>> been increasing; releases have been made, etc.) are all there and
>>>> outlined
>>>> in [1].
>>>
>>>
>>> As I read the private list, there has been absolutely no effort at adding
>>> committers until last month when the topic of graduation has come up.
>>> There
>>> is no substantive discussion on the list of the potential committers, but
>>> simply rather perfunctory +1 votes.
>>>
>>> In reading the thread about whether there should be/is a diversity
>>> requirement, I come to a bit of a different conclusion as well. What I
>>> see
>>> in the discussion is that the participants seem to agree that
>>>
>>> - there should not be a simple count-based diversity measure because this
>>> would dissuade valuable commercial contributions
>>>
>>> - the chance/likelihood of project failure due to a dominant commercial
>>> contributor pulling out should not be considered since project dormancy or
>>> retirement isn't a bad thing. Better to try and fail than never try.
>>>
>>> - there is clear recognition of the risk of commercial companies inventing
>>> a project not so much because of a desire to build community but rather as
>>> a marketing maneuver.
>>>
>>> - there is no mention of the problems that have arisen in the Hadoop
>>> groups
>>> relative to use of groups and Apache trademarks for marketing purposes.
>>>
>>> I don't want to impute motives to actions since I cannot know what others
>>> hold in their hearts, but I don't see evidence of efforts to really build
>>> the community. There was one meat-space meetup a year ago. There have
>>> been a few presentations of what Tez is.
>>>
>>> I do see a fair number of public statements of the form "Tez is
>>> Hortonworks
>>> answer to Impala" or "The future of Hadoop runs on Tez", most of which
>>> seem
>>> to come out of Hortonworks' marketing department.
>>>
>>> In looking at the dev list back to September of last year, I see a large
>>> number of procedural messages (votes, results, release mechanics), a few
>>> user questions (NPE in such and so, how do I install) and very few design
>>> discussions. There was one thread last November about combiners, another
>>> in January about map parallelism, and one more in March about reducer
>>> parallelism. To me this looks a lot like a project where all design
>>> discussions are occurring off-list.
>>>
>>> What I would like to see would include
>>>
>>> - a strong effort on the part of Tez to bring all design and
>>> implementation
>>> discussions to the list,
>>>
>>> - continuous community engagement efforts such as weekly hangouts in
>>> different timezones to help new contributors understand what is happening
>>> technically in the project in an interactive setting
>>>
>>> - lots of public talks focussed on how outsiders can contribute and how
>>> the
>>> design works
>>>
>>> - cross posting on related projects offering cross pollination
>>> opportunities. Such related groups might be Drill, Optiq, Tajo and Spark.
>>> These postings would say things like "how could you guys help us with
>>> Tez"
>>> or "Tez has this and such, would that be helpful to you guys".
>>>
>>> - inviting contributors from related projects to give technical
>>> presentations in the context of Tez
>>>
>>> Now, my searches have been fairly cursory and could have missed important
>>> activities, but I have a bit of a hard time believing that I have missed
>>> major efforts along these lines.
>>>
>>> Based on this evidence, it really does look to me like Tez is a purely
>>> commercial development masquerading as an Apache community.
>>>
>>> I agree that superficial diversity metrics are counter-productive, but I
>>> also assert that there isn't any obvious evidence of serious community
>>> building here and there is significant evidence that building community
>>> isn't even the point of the project. That *is* a substantive issue
>>> relative to graduation.
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Tez graduation [Was: Request for mentor assessment]
Posted by "Mattmann, Chris A (3980)" <ch...@jpl.nasa.gov>.
Hi Ted,
Thanks. One thing after doing some of my own digging:
TEZ has a large JIRA repository and apparently a lot of the work is going
on there:
https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/TEZ-1218?jql=project%20%3D%20TEZ
Over 1200 issues to that tune as well.
This is validated by the following mail lists:
http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-tez-issues/
So looks like a *lot* of the development is occurring on list.
I'm hoping others in the Tez community can step up and also provide
similar data and factoids.
Cheers,
Chris
-----Original Message-----
From: Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com>
Reply-To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
Date: Monday, June 23, 2014 12:50 AM
To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
Cc: "dev@tez.incubator.apache.org" <de...@tez.incubator.apache.org>
Subject: Re: Tez graduation [Was: Request for mentor assessment]
>Let me repeat that my desired outcome here is Tez graduation.
>
>It is just that I want to see Tez graduate as a viable project.
>
>
>
>
>On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 12:43 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (3980) <
>chris.a.mattmann@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
>
>> Thanks Ted, these are all important points that require responses. I
>>have
>> CC'ed the dev@tez.i.a.o
>> list, where I hope the Tez community can respond to your points below in
>> detail.
>>
>> Guys, please see Ted's comments below and please try to address them in
>> light of the
>>
>> recent [DISCUSS] Graduation thread I raised. It's fine if the answer to
>> some of the
>> points is (1) we plan on addressing them by X date, with Y action; (2)
>>we
>> don't think
>> this is a valid point *because* ..*explanation*; (3) you didn't consider
>> this factoid
>> _here_, etc.
>>
>> I'm hoping the other mentors on the project can step up and have some
>> insight
>> into the below. I look forward to the discussion.
>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Chris
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com>
>> Reply-To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
>> Date: Monday, June 23, 2014 12:12 AM
>> To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
>> Subject: Re: Tez graduation [Was: Request for mentor assessment]
>>
>> >On Sun, Jun 22, 2014 at 9:33 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (3980) <
>> >chris.a.mattmann@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
>> >
>> >> >Regardless of whether it is an explicit requirement to have some
>> >>specific
>> >> >level of diversity, there is a requirement that the group
>>demonstrate
>> >> >community building.
>> >>
>> >> I'm also sympathetic to this: you can see my thread here where
>> >>originally
>> >> I didn't
>> >> think much had been going on until I explicitly checked the lists and
>> >>went
>> >> through
>> >> the archives and saw ~7 IIRC PPMC members/committers added since
>> >>entering
>> >> [1]. That's
>> >> community building regardless of what affiliation those new members
>>came
>> >> from.
>> >>
>> >> The other metrics and statistics (health of the mailing lists/open
>> >> discussions have
>> >> been increasing; releases have been made, etc.) are all there and
>> >>outlined
>> >> in [1].
>> >
>> >
>> >As I read the private list, there has been absolutely no effort at
>>adding
>> >committers until last month when the topic of graduation has come up.
>> >There
>> >is no substantive discussion on the list of the potential committers,
>>but
>> >simply rather perfunctory +1 votes.
>> >
>> >In reading the thread about whether there should be/is a diversity
>> >requirement, I come to a bit of a different conclusion as well. What I
>> >see
>> >in the discussion is that the participants seem to agree that
>> >
>> >- there should not be a simple count-based diversity measure because
>>this
>> >would dissuade valuable commercial contributions
>> >
>> >- the chance/likelihood of project failure due to a dominant commercial
>> >contributor pulling out should not be considered since project
>>dormancy or
>> >retirement isn't a bad thing. Better to try and fail than never try.
>> >
>> >- there is clear recognition of the risk of commercial companies
>>inventing
>> >a project not so much because of a desire to build community but
>>rather as
>> >a marketing maneuver.
>> >
>> >- there is no mention of the problems that have arisen in the Hadoop
>> >groups
>> >relative to use of groups and Apache trademarks for marketing purposes.
>> >
>> >I don't want to impute motives to actions since I cannot know what
>>others
>> >hold in their hearts, but I don't see evidence of efforts to really
>>build
>> >the community. There was one meat-space meetup a year ago. There have
>> >been a few presentations of what Tez is.
>> >
>> >I do see a fair number of public statements of the form "Tez is
>> >Hortonworks
>> >answer to Impala" or "The future of Hadoop runs on Tez", most of which
>> >seem
>> >to come out of Hortonworks' marketing department.
>> >
>> >In looking at the dev list back to September of last year, I see a
>>large
>> >number of procedural messages (votes, results, release mechanics), a
>>few
>> >user questions (NPE in such and so, how do I install) and very few
>>design
>> >discussions. There was one thread last November about combiners,
>>another
>> >in January about map parallelism, and one more in March about reducer
>> >parallelism. To me this looks a lot like a project where all design
>> >discussions are occurring off-list.
>> >
>> >What I would like to see would include
>> >
>> >- a strong effort on the part of Tez to bring all design and
>> >implementation
>> >discussions to the list,
>> >
>> >- continuous community engagement efforts such as weekly hangouts in
>> >different timezones to help new contributors understand what is
>>happening
>> >technically in the project in an interactive setting
>> >
>> >- lots of public talks focussed on how outsiders can contribute and how
>> >the
>> >design works
>> >
>> >- cross posting on related projects offering cross pollination
>> >opportunities. Such related groups might be Drill, Optiq, Tajo and
>>Spark.
>> > These postings would say things like "how could you guys help us with
>> >Tez"
>> >or "Tez has this and such, would that be helpful to you guys".
>> >
>> >- inviting contributors from related projects to give technical
>> >presentations in the context of Tez
>> >
>> >Now, my searches have been fairly cursory and could have missed
>>important
>> >activities, but I have a bit of a hard time believing that I have
>>missed
>> >major efforts along these lines.
>> >
>> >Based on this evidence, it really does look to me like Tez is a purely
>> >commercial development masquerading as an Apache community.
>> >
>> >I agree that superficial diversity metrics are counter-productive, but
>>I
>> >also assert that there isn't any obvious evidence of serious community
>> >building here and there is significant evidence that building community
>> >isn't even the point of the project. That *is* a substantive issue
>> >relative to graduation.
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>>
Re: Tez graduation [Was: Request for mentor assessment]
Posted by Hitesh Shah <hi...@apache.org>.
Hi folks,
To be very clear, the project's source of truth has always been its status file: https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/incubator/public/trunk/content/projects/tez.xml
For the tez website, http://tez.incubator.apache.org/team-list.html, the onus was for the committers to test out their commit privileges, update the teamlist in the source tree and publish the updated website. I understand it has created a lot of confusion for folks outside of the project. I will go ahead and update the internal list to match the source of truth.
Even though I am well aware that some of the initial committers on the incubator proposal have not been active ( my take on active is as simple as sending a single mail to any mailing list ) on the project since inception, my understanding had been that all committers and mentors from an incubator podling become PMC for the top level project when it graduates. Is my understanding incorrect? In any case, to directly address the diversity question, I believe the PMC would have members from companies such as Hortonworks, Yahoo, LinkedIn, Twitter to name a few.
As for our community, we have had multiple talks and meetups both on Tez alone as well as ones with the folks from Hive and Pig.
- http://www.meetup.com/Apache-Tez-User-Group. The only meetup we have had till date had a detailed talk on Tez in addition to presentations from folks from Hive and Pig on how they were using or planning to use Tez.
- There was a whole evening devoted to Tez and applications on Tez as part of the Bay Area Hadoop User Group - http://www.meetup.com/hadoop/events/116895522/
- Talks - there have been quite a few talks on it over the past year. For example, one can look at the recently completed Hadoop Summit in San Jose and search for Tez related talks of which only one talk was just about Tez and the others about applications built on top of it.
We have been working with the Hive and Pig folks mostly via JIRA to address their requirements as they built out their platforms to work on Tez. One can look at https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/HIVE-4660 and https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/PIG-3446 to see the considerable amount of work both these communities have put in to get their respective applications to work on top of Tez. Most of the interaction has been on JIRA and not really on the dev mailing lists. Most design discussions also tend to happen there. Subscribing to issues@ might give one a better perspective on community interaction.
To be frank, the Tez community for the past year has been working towards helping make Apache Hive and Apache Pig faster. As the platform evolves and grows, other applications such as Flink are considering it too. Hopefully, at some point down the line, we would like to work with the MapReduce community to have them consider using Tez.
thanks
— Hitesh
On Jun 23, 2014, at 12:50 AM, Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Let me repeat that my desired outcome here is Tez graduation.
>
> It is just that I want to see Tez graduate as a viable project.
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 12:43 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (3980) <
> chris.a.mattmann@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
>
>> Thanks Ted, these are all important points that require responses. I have
>> CC'ed the dev@tez.i.a.o
>> list, where I hope the Tez community can respond to your points below in
>> detail.
>>
>> Guys, please see Ted's comments below and please try to address them in
>> light of the
>>
>> recent [DISCUSS] Graduation thread I raised. It's fine if the answer to
>> some of the
>> points is (1) we plan on addressing them by X date, with Y action; (2) we
>> don't think
>> this is a valid point *because* ..*explanation*; (3) you didn't consider
>> this factoid
>> _here_, etc.
>>
>> I'm hoping the other mentors on the project can step up and have some
>> insight
>> into the below. I look forward to the discussion.
>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Chris
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com>
>> Reply-To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
>> Date: Monday, June 23, 2014 12:12 AM
>> To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
>> Subject: Re: Tez graduation [Was: Request for mentor assessment]
>>
>>> On Sun, Jun 22, 2014 at 9:33 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (3980) <
>>> chris.a.mattmann@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Regardless of whether it is an explicit requirement to have some
>>>> specific
>>>>> level of diversity, there is a requirement that the group demonstrate
>>>>> community building.
>>>>
>>>> I'm also sympathetic to this: you can see my thread here where
>>>> originally
>>>> I didn't
>>>> think much had been going on until I explicitly checked the lists and
>>>> went
>>>> through
>>>> the archives and saw ~7 IIRC PPMC members/committers added since
>>>> entering
>>>> [1]. That's
>>>> community building regardless of what affiliation those new members came
>>>> from.
>>>>
>>>> The other metrics and statistics (health of the mailing lists/open
>>>> discussions have
>>>> been increasing; releases have been made, etc.) are all there and
>>>> outlined
>>>> in [1].
>>>
>>>
>>> As I read the private list, there has been absolutely no effort at adding
>>> committers until last month when the topic of graduation has come up.
>>> There
>>> is no substantive discussion on the list of the potential committers, but
>>> simply rather perfunctory +1 votes.
>>>
>>> In reading the thread about whether there should be/is a diversity
>>> requirement, I come to a bit of a different conclusion as well. What I
>>> see
>>> in the discussion is that the participants seem to agree that
>>>
>>> - there should not be a simple count-based diversity measure because this
>>> would dissuade valuable commercial contributions
>>>
>>> - the chance/likelihood of project failure due to a dominant commercial
>>> contributor pulling out should not be considered since project dormancy or
>>> retirement isn't a bad thing. Better to try and fail than never try.
>>>
>>> - there is clear recognition of the risk of commercial companies inventing
>>> a project not so much because of a desire to build community but rather as
>>> a marketing maneuver.
>>>
>>> - there is no mention of the problems that have arisen in the Hadoop
>>> groups
>>> relative to use of groups and Apache trademarks for marketing purposes.
>>>
>>> I don't want to impute motives to actions since I cannot know what others
>>> hold in their hearts, but I don't see evidence of efforts to really build
>>> the community. There was one meat-space meetup a year ago. There have
>>> been a few presentations of what Tez is.
>>>
>>> I do see a fair number of public statements of the form "Tez is
>>> Hortonworks
>>> answer to Impala" or "The future of Hadoop runs on Tez", most of which
>>> seem
>>> to come out of Hortonworks' marketing department.
>>>
>>> In looking at the dev list back to September of last year, I see a large
>>> number of procedural messages (votes, results, release mechanics), a few
>>> user questions (NPE in such and so, how do I install) and very few design
>>> discussions. There was one thread last November about combiners, another
>>> in January about map parallelism, and one more in March about reducer
>>> parallelism. To me this looks a lot like a project where all design
>>> discussions are occurring off-list.
>>>
>>> What I would like to see would include
>>>
>>> - a strong effort on the part of Tez to bring all design and
>>> implementation
>>> discussions to the list,
>>>
>>> - continuous community engagement efforts such as weekly hangouts in
>>> different timezones to help new contributors understand what is happening
>>> technically in the project in an interactive setting
>>>
>>> - lots of public talks focussed on how outsiders can contribute and how
>>> the
>>> design works
>>>
>>> - cross posting on related projects offering cross pollination
>>> opportunities. Such related groups might be Drill, Optiq, Tajo and Spark.
>>> These postings would say things like "how could you guys help us with
>>> Tez"
>>> or "Tez has this and such, would that be helpful to you guys".
>>>
>>> - inviting contributors from related projects to give technical
>>> presentations in the context of Tez
>>>
>>> Now, my searches have been fairly cursory and could have missed important
>>> activities, but I have a bit of a hard time believing that I have missed
>>> major efforts along these lines.
>>>
>>> Based on this evidence, it really does look to me like Tez is a purely
>>> commercial development masquerading as an Apache community.
>>>
>>> I agree that superficial diversity metrics are counter-productive, but I
>>> also assert that there isn't any obvious evidence of serious community
>>> building here and there is significant evidence that building community
>>> isn't even the point of the project. That *is* a substantive issue
>>> relative to graduation.
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>>
Re: Tez graduation [Was: Request for mentor assessment]
Posted by "Mattmann, Chris A (3980)" <ch...@jpl.nasa.gov>.
Hi Ted,
Thanks. One thing after doing some of my own digging:
TEZ has a large JIRA repository and apparently a lot of the work is going
on there:
https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/TEZ-1218?jql=project%20%3D%20TEZ
Over 1200 issues to that tune as well.
This is validated by the following mail lists:
http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-tez-issues/
So looks like a *lot* of the development is occurring on list.
I'm hoping others in the Tez community can step up and also provide
similar data and factoids.
Cheers,
Chris
-----Original Message-----
From: Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com>
Reply-To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
Date: Monday, June 23, 2014 12:50 AM
To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
Cc: "dev@tez.incubator.apache.org" <de...@tez.incubator.apache.org>
Subject: Re: Tez graduation [Was: Request for mentor assessment]
>Let me repeat that my desired outcome here is Tez graduation.
>
>It is just that I want to see Tez graduate as a viable project.
>
>
>
>
>On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 12:43 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (3980) <
>chris.a.mattmann@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
>
>> Thanks Ted, these are all important points that require responses. I
>>have
>> CC'ed the dev@tez.i.a.o
>> list, where I hope the Tez community can respond to your points below in
>> detail.
>>
>> Guys, please see Ted's comments below and please try to address them in
>> light of the
>>
>> recent [DISCUSS] Graduation thread I raised. It's fine if the answer to
>> some of the
>> points is (1) we plan on addressing them by X date, with Y action; (2)
>>we
>> don't think
>> this is a valid point *because* ..*explanation*; (3) you didn't consider
>> this factoid
>> _here_, etc.
>>
>> I'm hoping the other mentors on the project can step up and have some
>> insight
>> into the below. I look forward to the discussion.
>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Chris
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com>
>> Reply-To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
>> Date: Monday, June 23, 2014 12:12 AM
>> To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
>> Subject: Re: Tez graduation [Was: Request for mentor assessment]
>>
>> >On Sun, Jun 22, 2014 at 9:33 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (3980) <
>> >chris.a.mattmann@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
>> >
>> >> >Regardless of whether it is an explicit requirement to have some
>> >>specific
>> >> >level of diversity, there is a requirement that the group
>>demonstrate
>> >> >community building.
>> >>
>> >> I'm also sympathetic to this: you can see my thread here where
>> >>originally
>> >> I didn't
>> >> think much had been going on until I explicitly checked the lists and
>> >>went
>> >> through
>> >> the archives and saw ~7 IIRC PPMC members/committers added since
>> >>entering
>> >> [1]. That's
>> >> community building regardless of what affiliation those new members
>>came
>> >> from.
>> >>
>> >> The other metrics and statistics (health of the mailing lists/open
>> >> discussions have
>> >> been increasing; releases have been made, etc.) are all there and
>> >>outlined
>> >> in [1].
>> >
>> >
>> >As I read the private list, there has been absolutely no effort at
>>adding
>> >committers until last month when the topic of graduation has come up.
>> >There
>> >is no substantive discussion on the list of the potential committers,
>>but
>> >simply rather perfunctory +1 votes.
>> >
>> >In reading the thread about whether there should be/is a diversity
>> >requirement, I come to a bit of a different conclusion as well. What I
>> >see
>> >in the discussion is that the participants seem to agree that
>> >
>> >- there should not be a simple count-based diversity measure because
>>this
>> >would dissuade valuable commercial contributions
>> >
>> >- the chance/likelihood of project failure due to a dominant commercial
>> >contributor pulling out should not be considered since project
>>dormancy or
>> >retirement isn't a bad thing. Better to try and fail than never try.
>> >
>> >- there is clear recognition of the risk of commercial companies
>>inventing
>> >a project not so much because of a desire to build community but
>>rather as
>> >a marketing maneuver.
>> >
>> >- there is no mention of the problems that have arisen in the Hadoop
>> >groups
>> >relative to use of groups and Apache trademarks for marketing purposes.
>> >
>> >I don't want to impute motives to actions since I cannot know what
>>others
>> >hold in their hearts, but I don't see evidence of efforts to really
>>build
>> >the community. There was one meat-space meetup a year ago. There have
>> >been a few presentations of what Tez is.
>> >
>> >I do see a fair number of public statements of the form "Tez is
>> >Hortonworks
>> >answer to Impala" or "The future of Hadoop runs on Tez", most of which
>> >seem
>> >to come out of Hortonworks' marketing department.
>> >
>> >In looking at the dev list back to September of last year, I see a
>>large
>> >number of procedural messages (votes, results, release mechanics), a
>>few
>> >user questions (NPE in such and so, how do I install) and very few
>>design
>> >discussions. There was one thread last November about combiners,
>>another
>> >in January about map parallelism, and one more in March about reducer
>> >parallelism. To me this looks a lot like a project where all design
>> >discussions are occurring off-list.
>> >
>> >What I would like to see would include
>> >
>> >- a strong effort on the part of Tez to bring all design and
>> >implementation
>> >discussions to the list,
>> >
>> >- continuous community engagement efforts such as weekly hangouts in
>> >different timezones to help new contributors understand what is
>>happening
>> >technically in the project in an interactive setting
>> >
>> >- lots of public talks focussed on how outsiders can contribute and how
>> >the
>> >design works
>> >
>> >- cross posting on related projects offering cross pollination
>> >opportunities. Such related groups might be Drill, Optiq, Tajo and
>>Spark.
>> > These postings would say things like "how could you guys help us with
>> >Tez"
>> >or "Tez has this and such, would that be helpful to you guys".
>> >
>> >- inviting contributors from related projects to give technical
>> >presentations in the context of Tez
>> >
>> >Now, my searches have been fairly cursory and could have missed
>>important
>> >activities, but I have a bit of a hard time believing that I have
>>missed
>> >major efforts along these lines.
>> >
>> >Based on this evidence, it really does look to me like Tez is a purely
>> >commercial development masquerading as an Apache community.
>> >
>> >I agree that superficial diversity metrics are counter-productive, but
>>I
>> >also assert that there isn't any obvious evidence of serious community
>> >building here and there is significant evidence that building community
>> >isn't even the point of the project. That *is* a substantive issue
>> >relative to graduation.
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Tez graduation [Was: Request for mentor assessment]
Posted by Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com>.
Let me repeat that my desired outcome here is Tez graduation.
It is just that I want to see Tez graduate as a viable project.
On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 12:43 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (3980) <
chris.a.mattmann@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
> Thanks Ted, these are all important points that require responses. I have
> CC'ed the dev@tez.i.a.o
> list, where I hope the Tez community can respond to your points below in
> detail.
>
> Guys, please see Ted's comments below and please try to address them in
> light of the
>
> recent [DISCUSS] Graduation thread I raised. It's fine if the answer to
> some of the
> points is (1) we plan on addressing them by X date, with Y action; (2) we
> don't think
> this is a valid point *because* ..*explanation*; (3) you didn't consider
> this factoid
> _here_, etc.
>
> I'm hoping the other mentors on the project can step up and have some
> insight
> into the below. I look forward to the discussion.
>
>
> Cheers,
> Chris
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com>
> Reply-To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
> Date: Monday, June 23, 2014 12:12 AM
> To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
> Subject: Re: Tez graduation [Was: Request for mentor assessment]
>
> >On Sun, Jun 22, 2014 at 9:33 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (3980) <
> >chris.a.mattmann@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
> >
> >> >Regardless of whether it is an explicit requirement to have some
> >>specific
> >> >level of diversity, there is a requirement that the group demonstrate
> >> >community building.
> >>
> >> I'm also sympathetic to this: you can see my thread here where
> >>originally
> >> I didn't
> >> think much had been going on until I explicitly checked the lists and
> >>went
> >> through
> >> the archives and saw ~7 IIRC PPMC members/committers added since
> >>entering
> >> [1]. That's
> >> community building regardless of what affiliation those new members came
> >> from.
> >>
> >> The other metrics and statistics (health of the mailing lists/open
> >> discussions have
> >> been increasing; releases have been made, etc.) are all there and
> >>outlined
> >> in [1].
> >
> >
> >As I read the private list, there has been absolutely no effort at adding
> >committers until last month when the topic of graduation has come up.
> >There
> >is no substantive discussion on the list of the potential committers, but
> >simply rather perfunctory +1 votes.
> >
> >In reading the thread about whether there should be/is a diversity
> >requirement, I come to a bit of a different conclusion as well. What I
> >see
> >in the discussion is that the participants seem to agree that
> >
> >- there should not be a simple count-based diversity measure because this
> >would dissuade valuable commercial contributions
> >
> >- the chance/likelihood of project failure due to a dominant commercial
> >contributor pulling out should not be considered since project dormancy or
> >retirement isn't a bad thing. Better to try and fail than never try.
> >
> >- there is clear recognition of the risk of commercial companies inventing
> >a project not so much because of a desire to build community but rather as
> >a marketing maneuver.
> >
> >- there is no mention of the problems that have arisen in the Hadoop
> >groups
> >relative to use of groups and Apache trademarks for marketing purposes.
> >
> >I don't want to impute motives to actions since I cannot know what others
> >hold in their hearts, but I don't see evidence of efforts to really build
> >the community. There was one meat-space meetup a year ago. There have
> >been a few presentations of what Tez is.
> >
> >I do see a fair number of public statements of the form "Tez is
> >Hortonworks
> >answer to Impala" or "The future of Hadoop runs on Tez", most of which
> >seem
> >to come out of Hortonworks' marketing department.
> >
> >In looking at the dev list back to September of last year, I see a large
> >number of procedural messages (votes, results, release mechanics), a few
> >user questions (NPE in such and so, how do I install) and very few design
> >discussions. There was one thread last November about combiners, another
> >in January about map parallelism, and one more in March about reducer
> >parallelism. To me this looks a lot like a project where all design
> >discussions are occurring off-list.
> >
> >What I would like to see would include
> >
> >- a strong effort on the part of Tez to bring all design and
> >implementation
> >discussions to the list,
> >
> >- continuous community engagement efforts such as weekly hangouts in
> >different timezones to help new contributors understand what is happening
> >technically in the project in an interactive setting
> >
> >- lots of public talks focussed on how outsiders can contribute and how
> >the
> >design works
> >
> >- cross posting on related projects offering cross pollination
> >opportunities. Such related groups might be Drill, Optiq, Tajo and Spark.
> > These postings would say things like "how could you guys help us with
> >Tez"
> >or "Tez has this and such, would that be helpful to you guys".
> >
> >- inviting contributors from related projects to give technical
> >presentations in the context of Tez
> >
> >Now, my searches have been fairly cursory and could have missed important
> >activities, but I have a bit of a hard time believing that I have missed
> >major efforts along these lines.
> >
> >Based on this evidence, it really does look to me like Tez is a purely
> >commercial development masquerading as an Apache community.
> >
> >I agree that superficial diversity metrics are counter-productive, but I
> >also assert that there isn't any obvious evidence of serious community
> >building here and there is significant evidence that building community
> >isn't even the point of the project. That *is* a substantive issue
> >relative to graduation.
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
Re: Tez graduation [Was: Request for mentor assessment]
Posted by Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com>.
Let me repeat that my desired outcome here is Tez graduation.
It is just that I want to see Tez graduate as a viable project.
On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 12:43 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (3980) <
chris.a.mattmann@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
> Thanks Ted, these are all important points that require responses. I have
> CC'ed the dev@tez.i.a.o
> list, where I hope the Tez community can respond to your points below in
> detail.
>
> Guys, please see Ted's comments below and please try to address them in
> light of the
>
> recent [DISCUSS] Graduation thread I raised. It's fine if the answer to
> some of the
> points is (1) we plan on addressing them by X date, with Y action; (2) we
> don't think
> this is a valid point *because* ..*explanation*; (3) you didn't consider
> this factoid
> _here_, etc.
>
> I'm hoping the other mentors on the project can step up and have some
> insight
> into the below. I look forward to the discussion.
>
>
> Cheers,
> Chris
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com>
> Reply-To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
> Date: Monday, June 23, 2014 12:12 AM
> To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
> Subject: Re: Tez graduation [Was: Request for mentor assessment]
>
> >On Sun, Jun 22, 2014 at 9:33 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (3980) <
> >chris.a.mattmann@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
> >
> >> >Regardless of whether it is an explicit requirement to have some
> >>specific
> >> >level of diversity, there is a requirement that the group demonstrate
> >> >community building.
> >>
> >> I'm also sympathetic to this: you can see my thread here where
> >>originally
> >> I didn't
> >> think much had been going on until I explicitly checked the lists and
> >>went
> >> through
> >> the archives and saw ~7 IIRC PPMC members/committers added since
> >>entering
> >> [1]. That's
> >> community building regardless of what affiliation those new members came
> >> from.
> >>
> >> The other metrics and statistics (health of the mailing lists/open
> >> discussions have
> >> been increasing; releases have been made, etc.) are all there and
> >>outlined
> >> in [1].
> >
> >
> >As I read the private list, there has been absolutely no effort at adding
> >committers until last month when the topic of graduation has come up.
> >There
> >is no substantive discussion on the list of the potential committers, but
> >simply rather perfunctory +1 votes.
> >
> >In reading the thread about whether there should be/is a diversity
> >requirement, I come to a bit of a different conclusion as well. What I
> >see
> >in the discussion is that the participants seem to agree that
> >
> >- there should not be a simple count-based diversity measure because this
> >would dissuade valuable commercial contributions
> >
> >- the chance/likelihood of project failure due to a dominant commercial
> >contributor pulling out should not be considered since project dormancy or
> >retirement isn't a bad thing. Better to try and fail than never try.
> >
> >- there is clear recognition of the risk of commercial companies inventing
> >a project not so much because of a desire to build community but rather as
> >a marketing maneuver.
> >
> >- there is no mention of the problems that have arisen in the Hadoop
> >groups
> >relative to use of groups and Apache trademarks for marketing purposes.
> >
> >I don't want to impute motives to actions since I cannot know what others
> >hold in their hearts, but I don't see evidence of efforts to really build
> >the community. There was one meat-space meetup a year ago. There have
> >been a few presentations of what Tez is.
> >
> >I do see a fair number of public statements of the form "Tez is
> >Hortonworks
> >answer to Impala" or "The future of Hadoop runs on Tez", most of which
> >seem
> >to come out of Hortonworks' marketing department.
> >
> >In looking at the dev list back to September of last year, I see a large
> >number of procedural messages (votes, results, release mechanics), a few
> >user questions (NPE in such and so, how do I install) and very few design
> >discussions. There was one thread last November about combiners, another
> >in January about map parallelism, and one more in March about reducer
> >parallelism. To me this looks a lot like a project where all design
> >discussions are occurring off-list.
> >
> >What I would like to see would include
> >
> >- a strong effort on the part of Tez to bring all design and
> >implementation
> >discussions to the list,
> >
> >- continuous community engagement efforts such as weekly hangouts in
> >different timezones to help new contributors understand what is happening
> >technically in the project in an interactive setting
> >
> >- lots of public talks focussed on how outsiders can contribute and how
> >the
> >design works
> >
> >- cross posting on related projects offering cross pollination
> >opportunities. Such related groups might be Drill, Optiq, Tajo and Spark.
> > These postings would say things like "how could you guys help us with
> >Tez"
> >or "Tez has this and such, would that be helpful to you guys".
> >
> >- inviting contributors from related projects to give technical
> >presentations in the context of Tez
> >
> >Now, my searches have been fairly cursory and could have missed important
> >activities, but I have a bit of a hard time believing that I have missed
> >major efforts along these lines.
> >
> >Based on this evidence, it really does look to me like Tez is a purely
> >commercial development masquerading as an Apache community.
> >
> >I agree that superficial diversity metrics are counter-productive, but I
> >also assert that there isn't any obvious evidence of serious community
> >building here and there is significant evidence that building community
> >isn't even the point of the project. That *is* a substantive issue
> >relative to graduation.
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
Re: Tez graduation [Was: Request for mentor assessment]
Posted by "Mattmann, Chris A (3980)" <ch...@jpl.nasa.gov>.
Thanks Ted, these are all important points that require responses. I have
CC'ed the dev@tez.i.a.o
list, where I hope the Tez community can respond to your points below in
detail.
Guys, please see Ted's comments below and please try to address them in
light of the
recent [DISCUSS] Graduation thread I raised. It's fine if the answer to
some of the
points is (1) we plan on addressing them by X date, with Y action; (2) we
don't think
this is a valid point *because* ..*explanation*; (3) you didn't consider
this factoid
_here_, etc.
I'm hoping the other mentors on the project can step up and have some
insight
into the below. I look forward to the discussion.
Cheers,
Chris
-----Original Message-----
From: Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com>
Reply-To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
Date: Monday, June 23, 2014 12:12 AM
To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
Subject: Re: Tez graduation [Was: Request for mentor assessment]
>On Sun, Jun 22, 2014 at 9:33 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (3980) <
>chris.a.mattmann@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
>
>> >Regardless of whether it is an explicit requirement to have some
>>specific
>> >level of diversity, there is a requirement that the group demonstrate
>> >community building.
>>
>> I'm also sympathetic to this: you can see my thread here where
>>originally
>> I didn't
>> think much had been going on until I explicitly checked the lists and
>>went
>> through
>> the archives and saw ~7 IIRC PPMC members/committers added since
>>entering
>> [1]. That's
>> community building regardless of what affiliation those new members came
>> from.
>>
>> The other metrics and statistics (health of the mailing lists/open
>> discussions have
>> been increasing; releases have been made, etc.) are all there and
>>outlined
>> in [1].
>
>
>As I read the private list, there has been absolutely no effort at adding
>committers until last month when the topic of graduation has come up.
>There
>is no substantive discussion on the list of the potential committers, but
>simply rather perfunctory +1 votes.
>
>In reading the thread about whether there should be/is a diversity
>requirement, I come to a bit of a different conclusion as well. What I
>see
>in the discussion is that the participants seem to agree that
>
>- there should not be a simple count-based diversity measure because this
>would dissuade valuable commercial contributions
>
>- the chance/likelihood of project failure due to a dominant commercial
>contributor pulling out should not be considered since project dormancy or
>retirement isn't a bad thing. Better to try and fail than never try.
>
>- there is clear recognition of the risk of commercial companies inventing
>a project not so much because of a desire to build community but rather as
>a marketing maneuver.
>
>- there is no mention of the problems that have arisen in the Hadoop
>groups
>relative to use of groups and Apache trademarks for marketing purposes.
>
>I don't want to impute motives to actions since I cannot know what others
>hold in their hearts, but I don't see evidence of efforts to really build
>the community. There was one meat-space meetup a year ago. There have
>been a few presentations of what Tez is.
>
>I do see a fair number of public statements of the form "Tez is
>Hortonworks
>answer to Impala" or "The future of Hadoop runs on Tez", most of which
>seem
>to come out of Hortonworks' marketing department.
>
>In looking at the dev list back to September of last year, I see a large
>number of procedural messages (votes, results, release mechanics), a few
>user questions (NPE in such and so, how do I install) and very few design
>discussions. There was one thread last November about combiners, another
>in January about map parallelism, and one more in March about reducer
>parallelism. To me this looks a lot like a project where all design
>discussions are occurring off-list.
>
>What I would like to see would include
>
>- a strong effort on the part of Tez to bring all design and
>implementation
>discussions to the list,
>
>- continuous community engagement efforts such as weekly hangouts in
>different timezones to help new contributors understand what is happening
>technically in the project in an interactive setting
>
>- lots of public talks focussed on how outsiders can contribute and how
>the
>design works
>
>- cross posting on related projects offering cross pollination
>opportunities. Such related groups might be Drill, Optiq, Tajo and Spark.
> These postings would say things like "how could you guys help us with
>Tez"
>or "Tez has this and such, would that be helpful to you guys".
>
>- inviting contributors from related projects to give technical
>presentations in the context of Tez
>
>Now, my searches have been fairly cursory and could have missed important
>activities, but I have a bit of a hard time believing that I have missed
>major efforts along these lines.
>
>Based on this evidence, it really does look to me like Tez is a purely
>commercial development masquerading as an Apache community.
>
>I agree that superficial diversity metrics are counter-productive, but I
>also assert that there isn't any obvious evidence of serious community
>building here and there is significant evidence that building community
>isn't even the point of the project. That *is* a substantive issue
>relative to graduation.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Tez graduation [Was: Request for mentor assessment]
Posted by "Mattmann, Chris A (3980)" <ch...@jpl.nasa.gov>.
Thanks Ted, these are all important points that require responses. I have
CC'ed the dev@tez.i.a.o
list, where I hope the Tez community can respond to your points below in
detail.
Guys, please see Ted's comments below and please try to address them in
light of the
recent [DISCUSS] Graduation thread I raised. It's fine if the answer to
some of the
points is (1) we plan on addressing them by X date, with Y action; (2) we
don't think
this is a valid point *because* ..*explanation*; (3) you didn't consider
this factoid
_here_, etc.
I'm hoping the other mentors on the project can step up and have some
insight
into the below. I look forward to the discussion.
Cheers,
Chris
-----Original Message-----
From: Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com>
Reply-To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
Date: Monday, June 23, 2014 12:12 AM
To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
Subject: Re: Tez graduation [Was: Request for mentor assessment]
>On Sun, Jun 22, 2014 at 9:33 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (3980) <
>chris.a.mattmann@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
>
>> >Regardless of whether it is an explicit requirement to have some
>>specific
>> >level of diversity, there is a requirement that the group demonstrate
>> >community building.
>>
>> I'm also sympathetic to this: you can see my thread here where
>>originally
>> I didn't
>> think much had been going on until I explicitly checked the lists and
>>went
>> through
>> the archives and saw ~7 IIRC PPMC members/committers added since
>>entering
>> [1]. That's
>> community building regardless of what affiliation those new members came
>> from.
>>
>> The other metrics and statistics (health of the mailing lists/open
>> discussions have
>> been increasing; releases have been made, etc.) are all there and
>>outlined
>> in [1].
>
>
>As I read the private list, there has been absolutely no effort at adding
>committers until last month when the topic of graduation has come up.
>There
>is no substantive discussion on the list of the potential committers, but
>simply rather perfunctory +1 votes.
>
>In reading the thread about whether there should be/is a diversity
>requirement, I come to a bit of a different conclusion as well. What I
>see
>in the discussion is that the participants seem to agree that
>
>- there should not be a simple count-based diversity measure because this
>would dissuade valuable commercial contributions
>
>- the chance/likelihood of project failure due to a dominant commercial
>contributor pulling out should not be considered since project dormancy or
>retirement isn't a bad thing. Better to try and fail than never try.
>
>- there is clear recognition of the risk of commercial companies inventing
>a project not so much because of a desire to build community but rather as
>a marketing maneuver.
>
>- there is no mention of the problems that have arisen in the Hadoop
>groups
>relative to use of groups and Apache trademarks for marketing purposes.
>
>I don't want to impute motives to actions since I cannot know what others
>hold in their hearts, but I don't see evidence of efforts to really build
>the community. There was one meat-space meetup a year ago. There have
>been a few presentations of what Tez is.
>
>I do see a fair number of public statements of the form "Tez is
>Hortonworks
>answer to Impala" or "The future of Hadoop runs on Tez", most of which
>seem
>to come out of Hortonworks' marketing department.
>
>In looking at the dev list back to September of last year, I see a large
>number of procedural messages (votes, results, release mechanics), a few
>user questions (NPE in such and so, how do I install) and very few design
>discussions. There was one thread last November about combiners, another
>in January about map parallelism, and one more in March about reducer
>parallelism. To me this looks a lot like a project where all design
>discussions are occurring off-list.
>
>What I would like to see would include
>
>- a strong effort on the part of Tez to bring all design and
>implementation
>discussions to the list,
>
>- continuous community engagement efforts such as weekly hangouts in
>different timezones to help new contributors understand what is happening
>technically in the project in an interactive setting
>
>- lots of public talks focussed on how outsiders can contribute and how
>the
>design works
>
>- cross posting on related projects offering cross pollination
>opportunities. Such related groups might be Drill, Optiq, Tajo and Spark.
> These postings would say things like "how could you guys help us with
>Tez"
>or "Tez has this and such, would that be helpful to you guys".
>
>- inviting contributors from related projects to give technical
>presentations in the context of Tez
>
>Now, my searches have been fairly cursory and could have missed important
>activities, but I have a bit of a hard time believing that I have missed
>major efforts along these lines.
>
>Based on this evidence, it really does look to me like Tez is a purely
>commercial development masquerading as an Apache community.
>
>I agree that superficial diversity metrics are counter-productive, but I
>also assert that there isn't any obvious evidence of serious community
>building here and there is significant evidence that building community
>isn't even the point of the project. That *is* a substantive issue
>relative to graduation.
Re: Tez graduation [Was: Request for mentor assessment]
Posted by Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com>.
On Sun, Jun 22, 2014 at 9:33 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (3980) <
chris.a.mattmann@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
> >Regardless of whether it is an explicit requirement to have some specific
> >level of diversity, there is a requirement that the group demonstrate
> >community building.
>
> I'm also sympathetic to this: you can see my thread here where originally
> I didn't
> think much had been going on until I explicitly checked the lists and went
> through
> the archives and saw ~7 IIRC PPMC members/committers added since entering
> [1]. That's
> community building regardless of what affiliation those new members came
> from.
>
> The other metrics and statistics (health of the mailing lists/open
> discussions have
> been increasing; releases have been made, etc.) are all there and outlined
> in [1].
As I read the private list, there has been absolutely no effort at adding
committers until last month when the topic of graduation has come up. There
is no substantive discussion on the list of the potential committers, but
simply rather perfunctory +1 votes.
In reading the thread about whether there should be/is a diversity
requirement, I come to a bit of a different conclusion as well. What I see
in the discussion is that the participants seem to agree that
- there should not be a simple count-based diversity measure because this
would dissuade valuable commercial contributions
- the chance/likelihood of project failure due to a dominant commercial
contributor pulling out should not be considered since project dormancy or
retirement isn't a bad thing. Better to try and fail than never try.
- there is clear recognition of the risk of commercial companies inventing
a project not so much because of a desire to build community but rather as
a marketing maneuver.
- there is no mention of the problems that have arisen in the Hadoop groups
relative to use of groups and Apache trademarks for marketing purposes.
I don't want to impute motives to actions since I cannot know what others
hold in their hearts, but I don't see evidence of efforts to really build
the community. There was one meat-space meetup a year ago. There have
been a few presentations of what Tez is.
I do see a fair number of public statements of the form "Tez is Hortonworks
answer to Impala" or "The future of Hadoop runs on Tez", most of which seem
to come out of Hortonworks' marketing department.
In looking at the dev list back to September of last year, I see a large
number of procedural messages (votes, results, release mechanics), a few
user questions (NPE in such and so, how do I install) and very few design
discussions. There was one thread last November about combiners, another
in January about map parallelism, and one more in March about reducer
parallelism. To me this looks a lot like a project where all design
discussions are occurring off-list.
What I would like to see would include
- a strong effort on the part of Tez to bring all design and implementation
discussions to the list,
- continuous community engagement efforts such as weekly hangouts in
different timezones to help new contributors understand what is happening
technically in the project in an interactive setting
- lots of public talks focussed on how outsiders can contribute and how the
design works
- cross posting on related projects offering cross pollination
opportunities. Such related groups might be Drill, Optiq, Tajo and Spark.
These postings would say things like "how could you guys help us with Tez"
or "Tez has this and such, would that be helpful to you guys".
- inviting contributors from related projects to give technical
presentations in the context of Tez
Now, my searches have been fairly cursory and could have missed important
activities, but I have a bit of a hard time believing that I have missed
major efforts along these lines.
Based on this evidence, it really does look to me like Tez is a purely
commercial development masquerading as an Apache community.
I agree that superficial diversity metrics are counter-productive, but I
also assert that there isn't any obvious evidence of serious community
building here and there is significant evidence that building community
isn't even the point of the project. That *is* a substantive issue
relative to graduation.
Re: Tez graduation [Was: Request for mentor assessment]
Posted by "Mattmann, Chris A (3980)" <ch...@jpl.nasa.gov>.
Hi Ted,
-----Original Message-----
From: Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com>
Reply-To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
Date: Sunday, June 22, 2014 6:36 AM
To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
Subject: Re: Tez graduation [Was: Request for mentor assessment]
>
>Chris
>
>Regardless of whether it is an explicit requirement to have some specific
>level of diversity, there is a requirement that the group demonstrate
>community building.
I'm also sympathetic to this: you can see my thread here where originally
I didn't
think much had been going on until I explicitly checked the lists and went
through
the archives and saw ~7 IIRC PPMC members/committers added since entering
[1]. That's
community building regardless of what affiliation those new members came
from.
The other metrics and statistics (health of the mailing lists/open
discussions have
been increasing; releases have been made, etc.) are all there and outlined
in [1].
>
>
>The page in question may be incorrect, but as it stands it does not
>appear that a diverse community has been built.
Having a diverse community is important and something that the project
should continue
to strive for. I agree at the end of day it's something that the project
needs to achieve
if they want to be resilient against any one company pulling out all of
its support/developers.
But it's something they need to *achieve* over the long run and it's not
an explicit requirement
for graduation as pointed out by Roy. Here's the relevant thread [2].
>
>
>I am sympathetic to the encouragement of company participation, but I
>don't think that it serves apache to have projects that are effective
>stalking horses for what are effectively private communities.
I agree Ted - again, my perception of Tez recently was the same until I
took the time
to walk through the archives and look at the positive direction where a
number of the
exit criteria for the Incubator were being met. [1] outlines my own
research into
this. If you have specific qualms that you can point to data on, I'm all
ears. But
my own research into the area, along with Chris Douglas's original prompt
that he
felt Tez was ready (and I trust ChrisD - yes it's a matter of trust) makes
me think
they are ready. There are ASF members on the committee including Arun and
ChrisD, so
that's a good sign that the intent is there for me and there are folks
watching over
the community to make sure it's growing in the ASF way.
>
>
>My sensitivity on this point is largely informed by the efforts we have
>made to build the drill community beyond the core team funded by MapR. I
>felt at the beginning of that project and still feel strongly that it is
>critical for a project to develop into a truly open community. Building a
>real community is hard work and it doesn't happen by accident, especially
>in a high pressure competitive environment. My own opinion is that this
>effort is not optional.
I applaud you on Drill - I have the same philosophy in my own projects.
>
>
>If the problem is simply an out of date web page and a good level of
>diversity exists, that would be an excellent outcome. If the web page is,
>however, accurate then I do see this as a problem that needs to e
>addressed.
See above as well as Roy's email and let me know what you think. I
appreciate and
value your opinion and we should figure out how to best address your
concerns.
Cheers,
Chris
[1] http://s.apache.org/tCN
[2] http://markmail.org/message/w56cmyri4osgcgud
>
>
>Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Jun 22, 2014, at 8:31, "Mattmann, Chris A (3980)"
>><ch...@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Guys,
>>
>> I will dig up the thread from Roy on this, but company-based diversity
>>is
>> not a graduation
>> requirement. Basically the jist of it is that requiring such would
>> discourage companies
>> from specifically funding participation in a single open source project
>> for fear of these
>> types of constraints and we'd lose out on the contributions.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Chris
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Henry Saputra <he...@gmail.com>
>> Reply-To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
>> Date: Saturday, June 21, 2014 10:18 PM
>> To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
>> Subject: Re: Tez graduation [Was: Request for mentor assessment]
>>
>>> Looks like the page is not updated because the proposal mentions more
>>> diverse people [1]
>>>
>>> [1] http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/TezProposal
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jun 20, 2014 at 8:02 PM, Konstantin Boudnik <co...@apache.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>> Ok, I've reached out to the Tez project and it seems that they are
>>>> wokring w/
>>>> Chris Mattmann's on the graduation process (per an email exchange
>>>> http://s.apache.org/K7g). What has caught my attention is the PPMC
>>>> composition
>>>> which is pretty much uniformly represented by a group with the same
>>>> affiliation. Given that this page
>>>> https://tez.incubator.apache.org/team-list.html
>>>> is up to date.
>>>>
>>>> If I am reading
>>>> https://incubator.apache.org/guides/graduation.html#community
>>>> right, the PPMC and committers composition should be diversified. Is
>>>>it
>>>> a
>>>> concern for graduation from the IPMC standpoint of view?
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Cos
>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Jun 16, 2014 at 06:54PM, Chris Douglas wrote:
>>>>> Tez is ready to graduate. Cos, if you can help us manage that
>>>>>process,
>>>>> it'd certainly be appreciated. -C
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Jun 16, 2014 at 12:53 PM, Konstantin Boudnik <co...@apache.org>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> I share the sentiment with NPanday - doesn't seem like anything is
>>>>> happening
>>>>>> there really.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If it of an interest to the incubator, I will volunteer to help
>>>>> mentoring Tez.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cos
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, Jun 13, 2014 at 12:55AM, Mattmann, Chris A (3980) wrote:
>>>>>>> I think Tez needs some more help mentoring. I myself haven't had
>>>>>>> as much time as possible so the more folks over there that can
>>>>>>> help mentor the better.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Good job starting this thread, Roman.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org>
>>>>>>> Reply-To: "general@incubator.apache.org"
>>>>> <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
>>>>>>> Date: Thursday, June 12, 2014 5:44 PM
>>>>>>> To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Request for mentor assessment
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 5:47 PM, Henry Saputra
>>>>> <he...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Seems like NPanday should go to attic. One mentor I asked did
>>>>> not even
>>>>>>>>> monitor it anymore
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I've had exactly the same experience. My plan here is to wait for
>>>>> folks
>>>>>>>> to chime in on this thread and for those mentors who are MiA start
>>>>>>>> different threads asking for additional (replacement) mentors.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I really would like for things like retirement proposals to come
>>>>> from
>>>>>>>> somebody who's spent time getting to know the community in greater
>>>>>>>> details.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>> Roman.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>
>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Tez graduation [Was: Request for mentor assessment]
Posted by Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com>.
Chris
Regardless of whether it is an explicit requirement to have some specific level of diversity, there is a requirement that the group demonstrate community building.
The page in question may be incorrect, but as it stands it does not appear that a diverse community has been built.
I am sympathetic to the encouragement of company participation, but I don't think that it serves apache to have projects that are effective stalking horses for what are effectively private communities.
My sensitivity on this point is largely informed by the efforts we have made to build the drill community beyond the core team funded by MapR. I felt at the beginning of that project and still feel strongly that it is critical for a project to develop into a truly open community. Building a real community is hard work and it doesn't happen by accident, especially in a high pressure competitive environment. My own opinion is that this effort is not optional.
If the problem is simply an out of date web page and a good level of diversity exists, that would be an excellent outcome. If the web page is, however, accurate then I do see this as a problem that needs to e addressed.
Sent from my iPhone
> On Jun 22, 2014, at 8:31, "Mattmann, Chris A (3980)" <ch...@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
>
> Hi Guys,
>
> I will dig up the thread from Roy on this, but company-based diversity is
> not a graduation
> requirement. Basically the jist of it is that requiring such would
> discourage companies
> from specifically funding participation in a single open source project
> for fear of these
> types of constraints and we'd lose out on the contributions.
>
> Cheers,
> Chris
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Henry Saputra <he...@gmail.com>
> Reply-To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
> Date: Saturday, June 21, 2014 10:18 PM
> To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
> Subject: Re: Tez graduation [Was: Request for mentor assessment]
>
>> Looks like the page is not updated because the proposal mentions more
>> diverse people [1]
>>
>> [1] http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/TezProposal
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 20, 2014 at 8:02 PM, Konstantin Boudnik <co...@apache.org>
>> wrote:
>>> Ok, I've reached out to the Tez project and it seems that they are
>>> wokring w/
>>> Chris Mattmann's on the graduation process (per an email exchange
>>> http://s.apache.org/K7g). What has caught my attention is the PPMC
>>> composition
>>> which is pretty much uniformly represented by a group with the same
>>> affiliation. Given that this page
>>> https://tez.incubator.apache.org/team-list.html
>>> is up to date.
>>>
>>> If I am reading
>>> https://incubator.apache.org/guides/graduation.html#community
>>> right, the PPMC and committers composition should be diversified. Is it
>>> a
>>> concern for graduation from the IPMC standpoint of view?
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Cos
>>>
>>>> On Mon, Jun 16, 2014 at 06:54PM, Chris Douglas wrote:
>>>> Tez is ready to graduate. Cos, if you can help us manage that process,
>>>> it'd certainly be appreciated. -C
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Jun 16, 2014 at 12:53 PM, Konstantin Boudnik <co...@apache.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> I share the sentiment with NPanday - doesn't seem like anything is
>>>> happening
>>>>> there really.
>>>>>
>>>>> If it of an interest to the incubator, I will volunteer to help
>>>> mentoring Tez.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cos
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Jun 13, 2014 at 12:55AM, Mattmann, Chris A (3980) wrote:
>>>>>> I think Tez needs some more help mentoring. I myself haven't had
>>>>>> as much time as possible so the more folks over there that can
>>>>>> help mentor the better.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Good job starting this thread, Roman.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org>
>>>>>> Reply-To: "general@incubator.apache.org"
>>>> <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
>>>>>> Date: Thursday, June 12, 2014 5:44 PM
>>>>>> To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: Request for mentor assessment
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 5:47 PM, Henry Saputra
>>>> <he...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Seems like NPanday should go to attic. One mentor I asked did
>>>> not even
>>>>>>>> monitor it anymore
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've had exactly the same experience. My plan here is to wait for
>>>> folks
>>>>>>> to chime in on this thread and for those mentors who are MiA start
>>>>>>> different threads asking for additional (replacement) mentors.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I really would like for things like retirement proposals to come
>>>> from
>>>>>>> somebody who's spent time getting to know the community in greater
>>>>>>> details.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>> Roman.
>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>
>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Tez graduation [Was: Request for mentor assessment]
Posted by "Mattmann, Chris A (3980)" <ch...@jpl.nasa.gov>.
Hi Guys,
I will dig up the thread from Roy on this, but company-based diversity is
not a graduation
requirement. Basically the jist of it is that requiring such would
discourage companies
from specifically funding participation in a single open source project
for fear of these
types of constraints and we'd lose out on the contributions.
Cheers,
Chris
-----Original Message-----
From: Henry Saputra <he...@gmail.com>
Reply-To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
Date: Saturday, June 21, 2014 10:18 PM
To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
Subject: Re: Tez graduation [Was: Request for mentor assessment]
>Looks like the page is not updated because the proposal mentions more
>diverse people [1]
>
>[1] http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/TezProposal
>
>On Fri, Jun 20, 2014 at 8:02 PM, Konstantin Boudnik <co...@apache.org>
>wrote:
>> Ok, I've reached out to the Tez project and it seems that they are
>>wokring w/
>> Chris Mattmann's on the graduation process (per an email exchange
>> http://s.apache.org/K7g). What has caught my attention is the PPMC
>>composition
>> which is pretty much uniformly represented by a group with the same
>> affiliation. Given that this page
>>https://tez.incubator.apache.org/team-list.html
>> is up to date.
>>
>> If I am reading
>>https://incubator.apache.org/guides/graduation.html#community
>> right, the PPMC and committers composition should be diversified. Is it
>>a
>> concern for graduation from the IPMC standpoint of view?
>>
>> Regards,
>> Cos
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 16, 2014 at 06:54PM, Chris Douglas wrote:
>>> Tez is ready to graduate. Cos, if you can help us manage that process,
>>> it'd certainly be appreciated. -C
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jun 16, 2014 at 12:53 PM, Konstantin Boudnik <co...@apache.org>
>>>wrote:
>>> > I share the sentiment with NPanday - doesn't seem like anything is
>>>happening
>>> > there really.
>>> >
>>> > If it of an interest to the incubator, I will volunteer to help
>>>mentoring Tez.
>>> >
>>> > Cos
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Fri, Jun 13, 2014 at 12:55AM, Mattmann, Chris A (3980) wrote:
>>> >> I think Tez needs some more help mentoring. I myself haven't had
>>> >> as much time as possible so the more folks over there that can
>>> >> help mentor the better.
>>> >>
>>> >> Good job starting this thread, Roman.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> -----Original Message-----
>>> >> From: Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org>
>>> >> Reply-To: "general@incubator.apache.org"
>>><ge...@incubator.apache.org>
>>> >> Date: Thursday, June 12, 2014 5:44 PM
>>> >> To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
>>> >> Subject: Re: Request for mentor assessment
>>> >>
>>> >> >On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 5:47 PM, Henry Saputra
>>><he...@gmail.com>
>>> >> >wrote:
>>> >> >> Seems like NPanday should go to attic. One mentor I asked did
>>>not even
>>> >> >> monitor it anymore
>>> >> >
>>> >> >I've had exactly the same experience. My plan here is to wait for
>>>folks
>>> >> >to chime in on this thread and for those mentors who are MiA start
>>> >> >different threads asking for additional (replacement) mentors.
>>> >> >
>>> >> >I really would like for things like retirement proposals to come
>>>from
>>> >> >somebody who's spent time getting to know the community in greater
>>> >> >details.
>>> >> >
>>> >> >Thanks,
>>> >> >Roman.
>>> >> >
>>> >>
>>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >> >To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>> >> >For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>> >> >
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>> >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>> >
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>
>
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Re: Tez graduation [Was: Request for mentor assessment]
Posted by Henry Saputra <he...@gmail.com>.
Looks like the page is not updated because the proposal mentions more
diverse people [1]
[1] http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/TezProposal
On Fri, Jun 20, 2014 at 8:02 PM, Konstantin Boudnik <co...@apache.org> wrote:
> Ok, I've reached out to the Tez project and it seems that they are wokring w/
> Chris Mattmann's on the graduation process (per an email exchange
> http://s.apache.org/K7g). What has caught my attention is the PPMC composition
> which is pretty much uniformly represented by a group with the same
> affiliation. Given that this page https://tez.incubator.apache.org/team-list.html
> is up to date.
>
> If I am reading https://incubator.apache.org/guides/graduation.html#community
> right, the PPMC and committers composition should be diversified. Is it a
> concern for graduation from the IPMC standpoint of view?
>
> Regards,
> Cos
>
> On Mon, Jun 16, 2014 at 06:54PM, Chris Douglas wrote:
>> Tez is ready to graduate. Cos, if you can help us manage that process,
>> it'd certainly be appreciated. -C
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 16, 2014 at 12:53 PM, Konstantin Boudnik <co...@apache.org> wrote:
>> > I share the sentiment with NPanday - doesn't seem like anything is happening
>> > there really.
>> >
>> > If it of an interest to the incubator, I will volunteer to help mentoring Tez.
>> >
>> > Cos
>> >
>> >
>> > On Fri, Jun 13, 2014 at 12:55AM, Mattmann, Chris A (3980) wrote:
>> >> I think Tez needs some more help mentoring. I myself haven't had
>> >> as much time as possible so the more folks over there that can
>> >> help mentor the better.
>> >>
>> >> Good job starting this thread, Roman.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org>
>> >> Reply-To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
>> >> Date: Thursday, June 12, 2014 5:44 PM
>> >> To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
>> >> Subject: Re: Request for mentor assessment
>> >>
>> >> >On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 5:47 PM, Henry Saputra <he...@gmail.com>
>> >> >wrote:
>> >> >> Seems like NPanday should go to attic. One mentor I asked did not even
>> >> >> monitor it anymore
>> >> >
>> >> >I've had exactly the same experience. My plan here is to wait for folks
>> >> >to chime in on this thread and for those mentors who are MiA start
>> >> >different threads asking for additional (replacement) mentors.
>> >> >
>> >> >I really would like for things like retirement proposals to come from
>> >> >somebody who's spent time getting to know the community in greater
>> >> >details.
>> >> >
>> >> >Thanks,
>> >> >Roman.
>> >> >
>> >> >---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> >> >For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>> >>
>> >
>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>> >
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
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Re: Tez graduation [Was: Request for mentor assessment]
Posted by Konstantin Boudnik <co...@apache.org>.
Ok, I've reached out to the Tez project and it seems that they are wokring w/
Chris Mattmann's on the graduation process (per an email exchange
http://s.apache.org/K7g). What has caught my attention is the PPMC composition
which is pretty much uniformly represented by a group with the same
affiliation. Given that this page https://tez.incubator.apache.org/team-list.html
is up to date.
If I am reading https://incubator.apache.org/guides/graduation.html#community
right, the PPMC and committers composition should be diversified. Is it a
concern for graduation from the IPMC standpoint of view?
Regards,
Cos
On Mon, Jun 16, 2014 at 06:54PM, Chris Douglas wrote:
> Tez is ready to graduate. Cos, if you can help us manage that process,
> it'd certainly be appreciated. -C
>
> On Mon, Jun 16, 2014 at 12:53 PM, Konstantin Boudnik <co...@apache.org> wrote:
> > I share the sentiment with NPanday - doesn't seem like anything is happening
> > there really.
> >
> > If it of an interest to the incubator, I will volunteer to help mentoring Tez.
> >
> > Cos
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Jun 13, 2014 at 12:55AM, Mattmann, Chris A (3980) wrote:
> >> I think Tez needs some more help mentoring. I myself haven't had
> >> as much time as possible so the more folks over there that can
> >> help mentor the better.
> >>
> >> Good job starting this thread, Roman.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org>
> >> Reply-To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
> >> Date: Thursday, June 12, 2014 5:44 PM
> >> To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
> >> Subject: Re: Request for mentor assessment
> >>
> >> >On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 5:47 PM, Henry Saputra <he...@gmail.com>
> >> >wrote:
> >> >> Seems like NPanday should go to attic. One mentor I asked did not even
> >> >> monitor it anymore
> >> >
> >> >I've had exactly the same experience. My plan here is to wait for folks
> >> >to chime in on this thread and for those mentors who are MiA start
> >> >different threads asking for additional (replacement) mentors.
> >> >
> >> >I really would like for things like retirement proposals to come from
> >> >somebody who's spent time getting to know the community in greater
> >> >details.
> >> >
> >> >Thanks,
> >> >Roman.
> >> >
> >> >---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> >> >For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >>
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
Re: Request for mentor assessment
Posted by Chris Douglas <cd...@apache.org>.
Tez is ready to graduate. Cos, if you can help us manage that process,
it'd certainly be appreciated. -C
On Mon, Jun 16, 2014 at 12:53 PM, Konstantin Boudnik <co...@apache.org> wrote:
> I share the sentiment with NPanday - doesn't seem like anything is happening
> there really.
>
> If it of an interest to the incubator, I will volunteer to help mentoring Tez.
>
> Cos
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 13, 2014 at 12:55AM, Mattmann, Chris A (3980) wrote:
>> I think Tez needs some more help mentoring. I myself haven't had
>> as much time as possible so the more folks over there that can
>> help mentor the better.
>>
>> Good job starting this thread, Roman.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org>
>> Reply-To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
>> Date: Thursday, June 12, 2014 5:44 PM
>> To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
>> Subject: Re: Request for mentor assessment
>>
>> >On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 5:47 PM, Henry Saputra <he...@gmail.com>
>> >wrote:
>> >> Seems like NPanday should go to attic. One mentor I asked did not even
>> >> monitor it anymore
>> >
>> >I've had exactly the same experience. My plan here is to wait for folks
>> >to chime in on this thread and for those mentors who are MiA start
>> >different threads asking for additional (replacement) mentors.
>> >
>> >I really would like for things like retirement proposals to come from
>> >somebody who's spent time getting to know the community in greater
>> >details.
>> >
>> >Thanks,
>> >Roman.
>> >
>> >---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> >For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>> >
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Request for mentor assessment
Posted by Konstantin Boudnik <co...@apache.org>.
I share the sentiment with NPanday - doesn't seem like anything is happening
there really.
If it of an interest to the incubator, I will volunteer to help mentoring Tez.
Cos
On Fri, Jun 13, 2014 at 12:55AM, Mattmann, Chris A (3980) wrote:
> I think Tez needs some more help mentoring. I myself haven't had
> as much time as possible so the more folks over there that can
> help mentor the better.
>
> Good job starting this thread, Roman.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org>
> Reply-To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
> Date: Thursday, June 12, 2014 5:44 PM
> To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
> Subject: Re: Request for mentor assessment
>
> >On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 5:47 PM, Henry Saputra <he...@gmail.com>
> >wrote:
> >> Seems like NPanday should go to attic. One mentor I asked did not even
> >> monitor it anymore
> >
> >I've had exactly the same experience. My plan here is to wait for folks
> >to chime in on this thread and for those mentors who are MiA start
> >different threads asking for additional (replacement) mentors.
> >
> >I really would like for things like retirement proposals to come from
> >somebody who's spent time getting to know the community in greater
> >details.
> >
> >Thanks,
> >Roman.
> >
> >---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> >For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
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Re: Request for mentor assessment
Posted by "Mattmann, Chris A (3980)" <ch...@jpl.nasa.gov>.
I think Tez needs some more help mentoring. I myself haven't had
as much time as possible so the more folks over there that can
help mentor the better.
Good job starting this thread, Roman.
-----Original Message-----
From: Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org>
Reply-To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
Date: Thursday, June 12, 2014 5:44 PM
To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
Subject: Re: Request for mentor assessment
>On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 5:47 PM, Henry Saputra <he...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>> Seems like NPanday should go to attic. One mentor I asked did not even
>> monitor it anymore
>
>I've had exactly the same experience. My plan here is to wait for folks
>to chime in on this thread and for those mentors who are MiA start
>different threads asking for additional (replacement) mentors.
>
>I really would like for things like retirement proposals to come from
>somebody who's spent time getting to know the community in greater
>details.
>
>Thanks,
>Roman.
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
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Re: Request for mentor assessment
Posted by Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org>.
On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 5:47 PM, Henry Saputra <he...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Seems like NPanday should go to attic. One mentor I asked did not even
> monitor it anymore
I've had exactly the same experience. My plan here is to wait for folks
to chime in on this thread and for those mentors who are MiA start
different threads asking for additional (replacement) mentors.
I really would like for things like retirement proposals to come from
somebody who's spent time getting to know the community in greater
details.
Thanks,
Roman.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Request for mentor assessment
Posted by Deng Ching-Mallete <oc...@apache.org>.
Hi all,
As I've replied to Roman earlier in a separate email thread in NPanday
list, I have already stepped down as mentor for the project over a year ago.
Anyway, I took a quick look at the Jira and commit notifications, and the
last commit made was on April 4. There have been a number of tickets
reported in the recent weeks, but there doesn't seem to be anyone actively
working on any of them. If there aren't any volunteers that are willing to
step in and help, I guess the best option is to move the project to attic
as mentioned.
-Deng
On Thu, Jun 12, 2014 at 8:47 AM, Henry Saputra <he...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Seems like NPanday should go to attic. One mentor I asked did not even
> monitor it anymore
>
> On Wednesday, June 11, 2014, Roman Shaposhnik <rv...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > Hi!
> >
> > I would like to kindly request some assistance
> > from the mentors of the following projects: devicemap,
> > kalumet, s4, wave and npanday (all CCed).
> >
> > I would like to figure out whether the concerns I have
> > for these projects are justified and if they are, what
> > would be the proposed steps for the IPMC.
> >
> > To be more specific:
> > * DeviceMap has been in the incubator since
> > 2012-01-03. It seems like it is still struggling
> > with the basics: producing releases and growing
> > its PMC. What's the recommendation here?
> >
> > * Kalumet has been in the incubator since 2011-09-20.
> > On one hand, it may be ready to graduate, but there
> > are also a few troubling signs. We need to get
> > recommendation on how to proceed.
> >
> > * S4 seems to be on a trajectory for retirement. Can we,
> > please, have mentors initiate that discussion in the
> > community and follow up on general@ ?
> >
> > * Wave is similar to Kalumet in that its been incubating
> > for a very long time (since 2010-12-01) but still show
> > troubling signs of lack of activity, lack of releases and
> > active PMC involvement.
> >
> > * NPanday has been incubating since 2010-08-13. Has
> > a pretty consistent track record of missing reports and
> > low amount of activity.
> >
> > And speaking of NPanday it seems to also have an additional
> > complication of mentors missing in action. I am also looking
> > for ideas of how to fix that. The best thought I have so far
> > is to ask for volunteers to step in and help.
> >
> > Anyway, to make long story short, if mentors could check
> > back with their projects and reply to this thread with
> > concrete assessments and recommendations that would
> > be awesome.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Roman.
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> > <javascript:;>
> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> > <javascript:;>
> >
> >
>
--
Maria Odea "Deng" Ching-Mallete | oching@apache.org |
http://www.linkedin.com/in/oching
Re: Request for mentor assessment
Posted by Henry Saputra <he...@gmail.com>.
Seems like NPanday should go to attic. One mentor I asked did not even
monitor it anymore
On Wednesday, June 11, 2014, Roman Shaposhnik <rv...@apache.org> wrote:
> Hi!
>
> I would like to kindly request some assistance
> from the mentors of the following projects: devicemap,
> kalumet, s4, wave and npanday (all CCed).
>
> I would like to figure out whether the concerns I have
> for these projects are justified and if they are, what
> would be the proposed steps for the IPMC.
>
> To be more specific:
> * DeviceMap has been in the incubator since
> 2012-01-03. It seems like it is still struggling
> with the basics: producing releases and growing
> its PMC. What's the recommendation here?
>
> * Kalumet has been in the incubator since 2011-09-20.
> On one hand, it may be ready to graduate, but there
> are also a few troubling signs. We need to get
> recommendation on how to proceed.
>
> * S4 seems to be on a trajectory for retirement. Can we,
> please, have mentors initiate that discussion in the
> community and follow up on general@ ?
>
> * Wave is similar to Kalumet in that its been incubating
> for a very long time (since 2010-12-01) but still show
> troubling signs of lack of activity, lack of releases and
> active PMC involvement.
>
> * NPanday has been incubating since 2010-08-13. Has
> a pretty consistent track record of missing reports and
> low amount of activity.
>
> And speaking of NPanday it seems to also have an additional
> complication of mentors missing in action. I am also looking
> for ideas of how to fix that. The best thought I have so far
> is to ask for volunteers to step in and help.
>
> Anyway, to make long story short, if mentors could check
> back with their projects and reply to this thread with
> concrete assessments and recommendations that would
> be awesome.
>
> Thanks,
> Roman.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> <javascript:;>
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> <javascript:;>
>
>