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Posted to community@apache.org by Joshua Slive <jo...@slive.ca> on 2003/01/28 22:36:47 UTC
Open community (was ... secret discussions ...)
Sorry if this has been discussed before (I just subscribed), but I don't
understand why community@apache.org would be a closed list. We have
plenty of other places in the ASF to discuss private issues (board@,
members@, pmc@, committers@ for announcements, etc). It is hard for me to
think of any issue that we would want to discuss on community that would
need to be private only to committers.
Joshua.
Re: Open community (was ... secret discussions ...)
Posted by Rodent of Unusual Size <Ke...@Golux.Com>.
Joshua Slive wrote:
>
> I will reiterate my arguments, then I'll go away for to save you all the
> pain of my opinions:
better, hold on to your opinions and read the archives as soon
as they're available. *then* give us the pain. :-)
> 1. The list is, at minimum, terribly misnamed. The Apache community
> consists of more than just committers.
not the community for which this list was created, it doesn't.
--
#ken P-)}
Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini http://Golux.Com/coar/
Author, developer, opinionist http://Apache-Server.Com/
"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
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Re: Open community (was ... secret discussions ...)
Posted by Joshua Slive <jo...@slive.ca>.
On Wed, 29 Jan 2003, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> Please explain why you find this pattern 'repugnant' on a mail list, but
> you don't on a CVS repository.
Since I promised I had finished arguing this, I replied privately.
Joshua.
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Re: Open community (was ... secret discussions ...)
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Joshua Slive wrote:
> Ben Hyde said:
>
>>Didn't we settle this most contentious issue some time ago with a few
>>megabytes of text and a long complex vote coupled with a solid turn
>>out? If so it's painful and cruel to reopen the issue. - ben
>
>
> I've already apologized twice for rehashing an old issue, but that is
> obviously a penalty a list must pay if it has no archives.
True. In fact, this list voted to have a public archive in place. The
fact that such archive is not existing is merely a do-ocracy issue:
nobody cared enough to create the archive.
> From what I've been able to glean from people's selective memory and mail
> quotes, the lack of archives is simply an oversight. What that tells me
> is that there was never an intention to discuss anything private on this
> list. Rather, the purpose of closing this list seems to have been
> intended to keep out unwanted opinion. I still find this repugnant.
Look again. The intention of the people who voted to keep it closed is
to keep the signal/noise ratio high enough so that people can cope with it.
> I will reiterate my arguments, then I'll go away for to save you all the
> pain of my opinions:
>
> 1. The list is, at minimum, terribly misnamed. The Apache community
> consists of more than just committers.
The majority of the people which are interested (quite a lot, that
votation was the most voted poll in the entire history of the
foundation) voted to keep it closed to try to improve the signal/noise
ratio but also recognized the necessity to make available to the public
the entire discussions so allowed a public archive to be available.
> What about the thousands of people
> who have made substantial contributions to Apache by submitting important
> patches, filing detailed bug reports, answering questions on users lists,
> etc? You can guarantee that many of these people have contributed more to
> Apache than many committers.
>
> 2. Excluding outside opinions hurts us all. It limits our perspective, it
> inhibits the recruitment of new participants, and it makes us seem like a
> bunch of stuck-up "cool kids" who just want to keep to ourselves.
>
> And no, allowing "invited guests" does not eliminate either problem.
>
> I'm not sure this is the type of "community" that I want to participate
> in.
CVS repositories are open for read and closed for write to people who
deserved that right.
This is an ASF-wide community mail list. It's open for read (just didn't
happen yet) and closed for write to people who deserved that right.
Since we have CVS and mail list oversight on code and we can always roll
back, we could, in theory, let everybody write on CVS and filter them
out later.
We could apply the same policy here.
Since the ASF decided for closing down the CVS repositories and filter
people *before* they are given the ability to modify the code, we are
applying the same pattern here.
Please explain why you find this pattern 'repugnant' on a mail list, but
you don't on a CVS repository.
--
Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>
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Re: Open community (was ... secret discussions ...)
Posted by Ben Hyde <bh...@pobox.com>.
Joshua Slive wrote:
> Ben Hyde said:
>> Didn't we settle this most contentious issue some time ago with a few
>> megabytes of text and a long complex vote coupled with a solid turn
>> out? If so it's painful and cruel to reopen the issue. - ben
>
> I've already apologized twice for rehashing an old issue, but that is
> obviously a penalty a list must pay if it has no archives.
Sorry if that seemed directed at anyone in particular. It was intended
it more as a plea to the collective hive-mind to attempt to heal rather
than claw at old wounds that are now presumably healing. Sort of a
hope we could move on to next thing.
- ben
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RE: [PROPOSE] Identify and describe community@ on site
Posted by "O'brien, Tim" <to...@transolutions.net>.
I did not want to mix up my own personal views with the proposal, here they
are.
1. Since community is to be archived on Eyebrowse, it only makes sense to
advertise the existence of this list on the website.
2. I attempted to choose language that would be as non-controversial as
possible. There is no reasoning given for why the list is open or closed,
the text simply states the facts as they are.
3. I'm not even sure if I'm allowed to make a proposal (not a committer),
but I thought I try anyway. I will not be adding any +1, +/-0, or -1 - I am
voteless.
--------
Tim O'Brien
> -----Original Message-----
> From: O'brien, Tim [mailto:tobrien@transolutions.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 3:33 PM
> To: community@apache.org
> Subject: [PROPOSE] Identify and describe community@ on site
>
>
> It is proposed that the community list be archived through
> Eyebrowse on nagoya, and it is also proposed that the
> following patch be applied to the Foundation's mailing list
> page on www.apache.org. A patch is included to this effect.
>
> PATCH BEGINS HERE:
>
> Index: mailinglists.xml
> ===================================================================
> RCS file: /home/cvspublic/site/xdocs/foundation/mailinglists.xml,v
> retrieving revision 1.13
> diff -u -r1.13 mailinglists.xml
> --- mailinglists.xml 28 Jan 2003 11:40:54 -0000 1.13
> +++ mailinglists.xml 29 Jan 2003 21:24:40 -0000
> @@ -44,6 +44,7 @@
> <section><title>Foundation Mailing Lists</title>
> <ul>
> <li><a href="#foundation-announce">Apache News and
> Announcements</a></li>
> + <li><a href="#foundation-community">Apache Community
> Discussion</a></li>
> <li><a href="#foundation-apachecon">Conference
> Announcements list</a></li>
> <li><a href="#foundation-members">Foundation member
> discussions</a></li>
> <li><a href="#foundation-board">Board of Directors
> list</a></li> @@ -101,6 +102,37 @@
> </tr>
> </table>
> </section>
> +
> +<section id="foundation-community"><title>Apache Community
> Discussion</title>
> +
> +<p>
> +The <code>community@apache.org</code> mailing list is used
> by members
> +of the Apache community to discuss issues relating to the
> foundation.
> +This list is archived for the benefit of the larger Apache
> community.
> +Individuals with committer status may subscribe to this list. While
> +subscription to this list is not open to the public, a committer may
> +invite a non-committer to participate in this discussion. </p>
> +
> +<table>
> + <tr>
> + <td>Volume:</td>
> + <td>Moderate</td>
> + </tr>
> + <tr>
> + <td>Subscription address:</td>
> + <td>Subscription is not open to the general public. See the
> + list description.</td>
> + </tr>
> + <tr>
> + <td>Archives:</td>
> + <td>
> + <a
> href="http://nagoya.apache.org/eyebrowse/SummarizeList?listId=108"
> + >community list archives from Eyebrowse</a></td>
> + </tr>
> +</table>
> +</section>
> +
>
> <section id="foundation-apachecon"><title>Apache Conference
> Announcements</title>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscribe@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: community-help@apache.org
>
>
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[PROPOSE] Identify and describe community@ on site
Posted by "O'brien, Tim" <to...@transolutions.net>.
It is proposed that the community list be archived through Eyebrowse on
nagoya, and it is also proposed that the following patch be applied to the
Foundation's mailing list page on www.apache.org. A patch is included to
this effect.
PATCH BEGINS HERE:
Index: mailinglists.xml
===================================================================
RCS file: /home/cvspublic/site/xdocs/foundation/mailinglists.xml,v
retrieving revision 1.13
diff -u -r1.13 mailinglists.xml
--- mailinglists.xml 28 Jan 2003 11:40:54 -0000 1.13
+++ mailinglists.xml 29 Jan 2003 21:24:40 -0000
@@ -44,6 +44,7 @@
<section><title>Foundation Mailing Lists</title>
<ul>
<li><a href="#foundation-announce">Apache News and
Announcements</a></li>
+ <li><a href="#foundation-community">Apache Community
Discussion</a></li>
<li><a href="#foundation-apachecon">Conference Announcements
list</a></li>
<li><a href="#foundation-members">Foundation member
discussions</a></li>
<li><a href="#foundation-board">Board of Directors list</a></li>
@@ -101,6 +102,37 @@
</tr>
</table>
</section>
+
+<section id="foundation-community"><title>Apache Community
Discussion</title>
+
+<p>
+The <code>community@apache.org</code> mailing list is used by
+members of the Apache community to discuss issues relating to the
+foundation. This list is archived for the benefit of the larger Apache
+community. Individuals with committer status may subscribe to this list.
+While subscription to this list is not open to the public, a committer may
+invite a non-committer to participate in this discussion.
+</p>
+
+<table>
+ <tr>
+ <td>Volume:</td>
+ <td>Moderate</td>
+ </tr>
+ <tr>
+ <td>Subscription address:</td>
+ <td>Subscription is not open to the general public. See the
+ list description.</td>
+ </tr>
+ <tr>
+ <td>Archives:</td>
+ <td>
+ <a
href="http://nagoya.apache.org/eyebrowse/SummarizeList?listId=108"
+ >community list archives from Eyebrowse</a></td>
+ </tr>
+</table>
+</section>
+
<section id="foundation-apachecon"><title>Apache Conference
Announcements</title>
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Re: Open community (was ... secret discussions ...)
Posted by Joshua Slive <jo...@slive.ca>.
On Wed, 29 Jan 2003, Rodent of Unusual Size wrote:
> Sander Striker wrote:
> >> 1. The list is, at minimum, terribly misnamed.
> >
> > Yes. It has been a misnomer from the start.
>
> and apparently some members of the minority seem unable to just let
> go and accept and work with the will of the majority, preferring
> to snipe any time the opportunity arises.
Because I like to be constructive, I'm going to go ask
marc.theaimsgroup.com to archive this list (and a couple others). With an
open history, at least this list won't be a big black box.
I'm not sure how marc works, but in case they need to subscribe, could the
moderator please watch for it and let them through.
Joshua.
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RE: Open community (was ... secret discussions ...)
Posted by Sander Striker <st...@apache.org>.
> From: Rodent of Unusual Size [mailto:Ken.Coar@Golux.Com]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 7:30 PM
[...]
> nothing personal, sander. my response would be the same for
> anyone else making that remark.
No problem. I probably should've kept my mouth shut or been
more verbose in my response. And maybe I should have consulted
the archives, because my memory on these matters is certainly
starting to fade...
Sander
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RE: Open community (was ... secret discussions ...)
Posted by Martin van den Bemt <ma...@mvdb.net>.
> sorry, but not only has this been a really bad week for me, but
> i'm bloody well sick and tired of people using this list to
> look back on what they (as a minority) thought was done wrong,
You can make any comment you like this week Ken :) Thanx for warning us..
http://golux.com/coar/blog/index?entry=129&comments=true
Hope the rest of your week will be full of love ;)
I'll leave you at peace now. Juset let us know when the love comes rolling
in..
Mvgr,
Martin
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Re: Open community (was ... secret discussions ...)
Posted by Rodent of Unusual Size <Ke...@Golux.Com>.
Sander Striker wrote:
>> 1. The list is, at minimum, terribly misnamed.
>
> Yes. It has been a misnomer from the start.
and apparently some members of the minority seem unable to just let
go and accept and work with the will of the majority, preferring
to snipe any time the opportunity arises.
sorry, but not only has this been a really bad week for me, but
i'm bloody well sick and tired of people using this list to
look back on what they (as a minority) thought was done wrong,
rather than using it to look forward on how to do things right.
or at least better.
nothing personal, sander. my response would be the same for
anyone else making that remark.
--
#ken P-)}
Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini http://Golux.Com/coar/
Author, developer, opinionist http://Apache-Server.Com/
"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
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Re: Open community (was ... secret discussions ...)
Posted by David Reid <dr...@jetnet.co.uk>.
> > 1. The list is, at minimum, terribly misnamed.
>
> Yes. It has been a misnomer from the start.
And that was debated at great (and extremely painful) length on the reorg@
list before the new list was setup.
Remember the community@ list was supposed to be a cure for many of the ills
that people saw in the ASF and it's organisation...
david
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RE: Open community (was ... secret discussions ...)
Posted by Sander Striker <st...@apache.org>.
> From: Joshua Slive [mailto:joshua@slive.ca]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 4:27 PM
> Ben Hyde said:
> > Didn't we settle this most contentious issue some time ago with a few
> > megabytes of text and a long complex vote coupled with a solid turn
> > out? If so it's painful and cruel to reopen the issue. - ben
>
> I've already apologized twice for rehashing an old issue, but that is
> obviously a penalty a list must pay if it has no archives.
There's always the ezmlm get syntax which allows you to get to the
messages. I'll agree if you think it is a horrible interface ;)
> I will reiterate my arguments, then I'll go away for to save you all the
> pain of my opinions:
>
> 1. The list is, at minimum, terribly misnamed.
Yes. It has been a misnomer from the start.
Sander
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RE: Open community (was ... secret discussions ...)
Posted by Joshua Slive <jo...@slive.ca>.
On Wed, 29 Jan 2003, Martin van den Bemt wrote:
> There is only one way to change stuff at apache : put it up for a vote.
Actually, my observation is that votes are used extremely rarely. Apache
decisions are almost-always consensus-based. Rare issues do come along
that require votes, but only after we have done our best to work towards
consensus.
I see no point in voting on this issue, since it seems I haven't haven't
changed anybody's opinion since the last vote. But that does not stop me
from trying.
Joshua.
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RE: Open community (was ... secret discussions ...)
Posted by Martin van den Bemt <ma...@mvdb.net>.
> > Live with it, unsubscribe or put up a vote to have it your way.
> Just stop
> > complaining about it.
>
> No.
>
> Complaining about what we think is wrong -- using reasoned arguments -- is
> the CORRECT way to make changes.
>
There is only one way to change stuff at apache : put it up for a vote.
The complaining part was about that I read a post about this stuff all the
time and I think we all (ehh should speak for myself: at least I) got the
picture by now.
I have no problem in discussing it and my intention is not to silence you if
you want to go on about this, but at some point you have to draw conclusions
and make a choice and the choices you can make are specified above. I tried
to say to you "It's time to make a choice". Probably should have added more
text, but for once I wanted to come straight to the point :).
Mvgr,
Martin
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RE: Open community (was ... secret discussions ...)
Posted by Joshua Slive <jo...@slive.ca>.
On Wed, 29 Jan 2003, Martin van den Bemt wrote:
> > And no, allowing "invited guests" does not eliminate either problem.
> >
> > I'm not sure this is the type of "community" that I want to participate
> > in.
>
> Live with it, unsubscribe or put up a vote to have it your way. Just stop
> complaining about it.
No.
Complaining about what we think is wrong -- using reasoned arguments -- is
the CORRECT way to make changes.
Joshua.
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Re: Open community (was ... secret discussions ...)
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
Martin van den Bemt wrote:
>>And no, allowing "invited guests" does not eliminate either problem.
>>
>>I'm not sure this is the type of "community" that I want to participate
>>in.
>
>
> Live with it, unsubscribe or put up a vote to have it your way. Just stop
> complaining about it.
Leave them alone, we need some Statler & Waldorfs over here if this is a
real 'community' ;-D
(BTW: I'm Waldorf, and I voted +1 on total openness)
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
Read my weblog at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org
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RE: Open community (was ... secret discussions ...)
Posted by Martin van den Bemt <ma...@mvdb.net>.
> > > in.
> >
> > Live with it, unsubscribe or put up a vote to have it your way.
> Just stop
> > complaining about it.
>
> Do people actually believe that having a poll will make these issues go
> away???????
Nope.. That's why I gave 3 choices..
Mvgr,
Martin
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Re: Open community (was ... secret discussions ...)
Posted by David Reid <dr...@jetnet.co.uk>.
> > And no, allowing "invited guests" does not eliminate either problem.
> >
> > I'm not sure this is the type of "community" that I want to participate
> > in.
>
> Live with it, unsubscribe or put up a vote to have it your way. Just stop
> complaining about it.
Do people actually believe that having a poll will make these issues go
away???????
david
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RE: Open community (was ... secret discussions ...)
Posted by Martin van den Bemt <ma...@mvdb.net>.
> And no, allowing "invited guests" does not eliminate either problem.
>
> I'm not sure this is the type of "community" that I want to participate
> in.
Live with it, unsubscribe or put up a vote to have it your way. Just stop
complaining about it.
Mvgr,
Martin
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Re: Open community (was ... secret discussions ...)
Posted by Joshua Slive <jo...@slive.ca>.
Ben Hyde said:
> Didn't we settle this most contentious issue some time ago with a few
> megabytes of text and a long complex vote coupled with a solid turn
> out? If so it's painful and cruel to reopen the issue. - ben
I've already apologized twice for rehashing an old issue, but that is
obviously a penalty a list must pay if it has no archives.
>From what I've been able to glean from people's selective memory and mail
quotes, the lack of archives is simply an oversight. What that tells me
is that there was never an intention to discuss anything private on this
list. Rather, the purpose of closing this list seems to have been
intended to keep out unwanted opinion. I still find this repugnant.
I will reiterate my arguments, then I'll go away for to save you all the
pain of my opinions:
1. The list is, at minimum, terribly misnamed. The Apache community
consists of more than just committers. What about the thousands of people
who have made substantial contributions to Apache by submitting important
patches, filing detailed bug reports, answering questions on users lists,
etc? You can guarantee that many of these people have contributed more to
Apache than many committers.
2. Excluding outside opinions hurts us all. It limits our perspective, it
inhibits the recruitment of new participants, and it makes us seem like a
bunch of stuck-up "cool kids" who just want to keep to ourselves.
And no, allowing "invited guests" does not eliminate either problem.
I'm not sure this is the type of "community" that I want to participate
in.
Joshua.
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Re: Open community (was ... secret discussions ...)
Posted by Dirk-Willem van Gulik <di...@webweaving.org>.
On Tue, 28 Jan 2003, Joshua Slive wrote:
> Sorry if this has been discussed before (I just subscribed), but I don't
> understand why community@apache.org would be a closed list. We have
> plenty of other places in the ASF to discuss private issues (board@,
> members@, pmc@, committers@ for announcements, etc). It is hard for me to
> think of any issue that we would want to discuss on community that would
> need to be private only to committers.
My personal understanding was that it would be open to anyone we wish to
see here; and by default to all committers.
Dw
Re: Open community (was ... secret discussions ...)
Posted by Rodent of Unusual Size <Ke...@Golux.Com>.
um, the decision was to have open archives but subscriber-only
posting, iirc. that makes the list open for viewing as you seem
to be saying it is not, joshua, while also satisfying the people
who don't want it to be *wide* open and allowing drive-by
comments and spam. it is a directed list for asf committers,
*not* an open list for discussion about apache by the general
public. you want the latter, request/propose it -- but please
refrain from rehashing and trying to repurpose something that
has already been decided.
--
#ken P-)}
Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini http://Golux.Com/coar/
Author, developer, opinionist http://Apache-Server.Com/
"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
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Re: Open community (was ... secret discussions ...)
Posted by Joshua Slive <jo...@slive.ca>.
On Tue, 28 Jan 2003, Joe Schaefer wrote:
> We did NOT vote to close the list. We voted to limit access to
> committers AND INVITED participants. If Andrew does not wish
> to INVITE Tim's participation, it is _Andrew_ who is blocking Tim's
> access here.
That is not an open list. A country club where you need to have an
invitiation to join is not an open club. A software program that you need
an invitation to use or modify is not open source.
Allowing invited guests does not solve the problem. It only puts it under
the rug by having a mechanism to quite people who make noise.
Personally, I'm not sure there are that many non-committers who would want
to subscribe to this list. But the whole idea of having the main "Apache
Community" being closed to non-committers is repugnant to me and is
completely counter to my definition of the Apache community. I don't care
anything about this particular case. I care about the principal.
Incidentally, the "Apache Community" includes, at minimum, everyone listed
here: http://www.apache.org/foundation/roles.html
Joshua.
Re: Open community (was ... secret discussions ...)
Posted by Joe Schaefer <jo...@sunstarsys.com>.
Joshua Slive <jo...@slive.ca> writes:
> On Tue, 28 Jan 2003, Sander Striker wrote:
> > community@ is the only ASF wide list that is opt-in and not bound to
> > a certain topic (like infrastructure@ for example). committers@ always
> > reaches _all_ committers if they want to participate or not. So that
> > list is not an option.
>
> The fact that it is the only ASF-wide list for discussion seems to be an
> argument for opening it, not closing it.
We did NOT vote to close the list. We voted to limit access to
committers AND INVITED participants. If Andrew does not wish
to INVITE Tim's participation, it is _Andrew_ who is blocking Tim's
access here.
--
Joe Schaefer
Re: Open community (was ... secret discussions ...)
Posted by Ben Hyde <bh...@pobox.com>.
Didn't we settle this most contentious issue some time ago with a few
megabytes of text and a long complex vote coupled with a solid turn
out? If so it's painful and cruel to reopen the issue. - ben
RE: Open community (was ... secret discussions ...)
Posted by Morgan Delagrange <md...@yahoo.com>.
Welcome to the minority, Joshua. :)
- Morgan
--- Joshua Slive <jo...@slive.ca> wrote:
>
> On Tue, 28 Jan 2003, Sander Striker wrote:
> > community@ is the only ASF wide list that is
> opt-in and not bound to
> > a certain topic (like infrastructure@ for
> example). committers@ always
> > reaches _all_ committers if they want to
> participate or not. So that
> > list is not an option.
>
> The fact that it is the only ASF-wide list for
> discussion seems to be an
> argument for opening it, not closing it.
>
> > Anyway, there are arguments for and against, a
> bunch of them are in the
> > reorg@ archives.
> >
> > In the community@ archives you can find the vote
> on whether this list
> > should be open or closed.
>
> Yah. Right. And where would I find those archives?
> One good reason for
> opening a list is it allows us to have public
> archives.
>
> Sorry for rehashing an old issue, but I just can't
> imagine a topic I would
> want to discuss on here that I wouldn't want to be
> public. Apache is an
> open organization. All discussion should be open
> unless there is a very
> specific reason otherwise. And the only reasons I
> can think of are
> security, legal, and making decisions on "trust"
> (which I always put in
> quotes). None of that should be happening here.
>
> If I were to write a set of Apache principles, "Open
> discussion and
> debate" would certainly be one of them. We aren't
> following that here.
>
> Joshua.
>
>
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=====
Morgan Delagrange
http://jakarta.apache.org/taglibs
http://jakarta.apache.org/commons
http://axion.tigris.org
http://jakarta.apache.org/watchdog
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RE: Open community (was ... secret discussions ...)
Posted by Joshua Slive <jo...@slive.ca>.
On Tue, 28 Jan 2003, Sander Striker wrote:
> community@ is the only ASF wide list that is opt-in and not bound to
> a certain topic (like infrastructure@ for example). committers@ always
> reaches _all_ committers if they want to participate or not. So that
> list is not an option.
The fact that it is the only ASF-wide list for discussion seems to be an
argument for opening it, not closing it.
> Anyway, there are arguments for and against, a bunch of them are in the
> reorg@ archives.
>
> In the community@ archives you can find the vote on whether this list
> should be open or closed.
Yah. Right. And where would I find those archives? One good reason for
opening a list is it allows us to have public archives.
Sorry for rehashing an old issue, but I just can't imagine a topic I would
want to discuss on here that I wouldn't want to be public. Apache is an
open organization. All discussion should be open unless there is a very
specific reason otherwise. And the only reasons I can think of are
security, legal, and making decisions on "trust" (which I always put in
quotes). None of that should be happening here.
If I were to write a set of Apache principles, "Open discussion and
debate" would certainly be one of them. We aren't following that here.
Joshua.
Re: Adding community@ archives was Open community (was ... secret
discussions ...)
Posted by Vadim Gritsenko <va...@verizon.net>.
Brian Behlendorf wrote:
>On Tue, 28 Jan 2003, Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
>
>
>>It's probably an oversight, nothing more. Drop a message to apmail@
>>(oh heck, I'll CC them in this message right now) and they should be
>>able to set it up. Also community@ should be added to the publically
>>available archives in http://www.apache.org/mail/.
>>
>>
>
>I don't know how eyebrowse is configured, but the mbox files are now at
>the URL above.
>
>
Can we invite marc.theaimsgroup.com to this list too?
Vadim
> Brian
>
>
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Re: Public... (Was: Re: Adding community@ archives was Open
community)
Posted by Pier Fumagalli <pi...@apache.org>.
On 30/1/03 20:23, "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
> http://nagoya.apache.org/eyebrowse/SummarizeList?listName=community@apache.o
> rg
>
> Do you still need to do something to enable searching? Doesn't seem to be
> available.
It is indexed... I don't know why it didn't pick it up... That's something
that only DLR can explain...
Pier
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RE: Public... (Was: Re: Adding community@ archives was Open community)
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
http://nagoya.apache.org/eyebrowse/SummarizeList?listName=community@apache.o
rg
Do you still need to do something to enable searching? Doesn't seem to be
available.
--- Noel
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Public... (Was: Re: Adding community@ archives was Open community)
Posted by Pier Fumagalli <pi...@apache.org>.
"Rodent of Unusual Size" <Ke...@Golux.Com> wrote:
> Pier Fumagalli wrote:
>>
>> Should I make community@ available also on EyeBrowse?
>> (Please, make sure to CC me as I'm not on the Community list)
>
> yes, please. and let us know the url.
As requested.
<http://nagoya.apache.org/eyebrowse/SummarizeList?listName=community@apache.
org>
Pier
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Re: Adding community@ archives was Open community (was ... secret
discussions ...)
Posted by Rodent of Unusual Size <Ke...@Golux.Com>.
Pier Fumagalli wrote:
>
> Should I make community@ available also on EyeBrowse?
> (Please, make sure to CC me as I'm not on the Community list)
yes, please. and let us know the url.
--
#ken P-)}
Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini http://Golux.Com/coar/
Author, developer, opinionist http://Apache-Server.Com/
"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
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Re: Adding community@ archives was Open community (was ... secret
discussions ...)
Posted by Pier Fumagalli <pi...@apache.org>.
"Brian Behlendorf" <br...@collab.net> wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Jan 2003, Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
>> It's probably an oversight, nothing more. Drop a message to apmail@
>> (oh heck, I'll CC them in this message right now) and they should be
>> able to set it up. Also community@ should be added to the publically
>> available archives in http://www.apache.org/mail/.
>
> I don't know how eyebrowse is configured, but the mbox files are now at
> the URL above.
Should I make community@ available also on EyeBrowse?
(Please, make sure to CC me as I'm not on the Community list)
Pier
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Re: Adding community@ archives was Open community (was ... secret
discussions ...)
Posted by Brian Behlendorf <br...@collab.net>.
On Tue, 28 Jan 2003, Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
> It's probably an oversight, nothing more. Drop a message to apmail@
> (oh heck, I'll CC them in this message right now) and they should be
> able to set it up. Also community@ should be added to the publically
> available archives in http://www.apache.org/mail/.
I don't know how eyebrowse is configured, but the mbox files are now at
the URL above.
Brian
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RE: Adding community@ archives was Open community (was ... secret discussions ...)
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> We're not really trying to hide anything. What you might
> be able to attribute to malice, attribute to, umm,
> absentmindedness.
For the record, malice never occured to me as an option. I'd asked about
archives previously, without a response. So when the comment was ever so
casually made that we could just look in them, naturally that perked up my
ears, and renewed my interest in knowing where such are located.
--- Noel
Adding community@ archives was Open community (was ... secret
discussions ...)
Posted by Justin Erenkrantz <je...@apache.org>.
--On Tuesday, January 28, 2003 5:15 PM -0500 "Noel J. Bergman"
<no...@devtech.com> wrote:
>> In the community@ archives you can find the vote on whether this
>> list should be open or closed.
>
> WHAT archives? As I have commented on before, eyebrowse has none
> for community@
> (http://nagoya.apache.org/eyebrowse/SummarizeList?listId=108). Are
> they elsewhere? If so, where?
It's probably an oversight, nothing more. Drop a message to apmail@
(oh heck, I'll CC them in this message right now) and they should be
able to set it up. Also community@ should be added to the publically
available archives in http://www.apache.org/mail/.
I don't have apmail access and I'm not at all clear that Eyebrowse is
working right now since nagoya isn't handling email for jakarta
anymore. So, it may take a few days for the dust to clear.
But, the intention was clearly for this list to be publically
archived. We're not really trying to hide anything. What you might
be able to attribute to malice, attribute to, umm, absentmindedness.
=) -- justin
RE: Open community (was ... secret discussions ...)
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> In the community@ archives you can find the vote on whether this list
> should be open or closed.
WHAT archives? As I have commented on before, eyebrowse has none for
community@ (http://nagoya.apache.org/eyebrowse/SummarizeList?listId=108).
Are they elsewhere? If so, where?
--- Noel
RE: Open community (was ... secret discussions ...)
Posted by Sander Striker <st...@apache.org>.
> From: Joshua Slive [mailto:joshua@slive.ca]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 10:37 PM
> Sorry if this has been discussed before (I just subscribed), but I don't
> understand why community@apache.org would be a closed list. We have
> plenty of other places in the ASF to discuss private issues (board@,
> members@, pmc@, committers@ for announcements, etc). It is hard for me to
> think of any issue that we would want to discuss on community that would
> need to be private only to committers.
>
> Joshua.
community@ is the only ASF wide list that is opt-in and not bound to
a certain topic (like infrastructure@ for example). committers@ always
reaches _all_ committers if they want to participate or not. So that
list is not an option.
Anyway, there are arguments for and against, a bunch of them are in the
reorg@ archives.
In the community@ archives you can find the vote on whether this list
should be open or closed.
HTH,
Sander