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Posted to dev@pivot.apache.org by "Sandro Martini (JIRA)" <ji...@apache.org> on 2010/03/18 23:54:27 UTC
[jira] Created: (PIVOT-435) Override Settings of the Skin with Json
file
Override Settings of the Skin with Json file
--------------------------------------------
Key: PIVOT-435
URL: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/PIVOT-435
Project: Pivot
Issue Type: New Feature
Components: wtk-terra
Reporter: Sandro Martini
Priority: Minor
Fix For: 2.0
add the ability to put all overrides (to the skin) in the optional json file, like some kind of global style.
Currently we put there only custom colors (and only some other values), and load it if given to the JVM as a startup property, but in the future we could put there all parameters that we want to override, like with CSS:
I imagine something like: always load the skin default json file, then if given, try to load the custom file and apply over all the settings, like "all label texts in bold" and other ... if not too complex.
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Re: [jira] Closed: (PIVOT-435) Override Settings of the Skin with Json
file
Posted by Greg Brown <gk...@mac.com>.
Unfortunately, media playback is not one of Java's strengths, so adding audio support to Pivot would be a huge undertaking. You might be able to find an open-source library that supports it - not sure.
On Jul 1, 2010, at 9:54 AM, Sandro Martini wrote:
>
>> I'm not recommending this for pivot main stream, just for folks who need to
> do that now.
> Ok, thanks for now.
>
>> I fixed the global application resources issue. It works as expected.
> This fix is in your code or in Pivot code ?
>
>> If pivot had a way to play sound, I would add in a sound "action" that's
>> triggerable for demonstration purposes.
> yes, could be an interesting thing to have, what others say ?
>
> Bye
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://apache-pivot-developers.417237.n3.nabble.com/jira-Created-PIVOT-435-Override-Settings-of-the-Skin-with-Json-file-tp456414p936179.html
> Sent from the Apache Pivot - Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Re: [jira] Closed: (PIVOT-435) Override Settings of the Skin with
Json file
Posted by Sandro Martini <sa...@gmail.com>.
Ok, great, thank you very much :-)
Bye
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Re: [jira] Closed: (PIVOT-435) Override Settings of the Skin with Json
file
Posted by Greg Brown <gk...@mac.com>.
Yes, I will be adding some examples to demonstrate this feature.
On Jul 2, 2010, at 11:39 AM, Sandro Martini wrote:
>
> Hi Greg,
> this is great ... have you got a suggestion to start exploring (in next
> months) this feature, to prepare a simple tutorial or demos for the 2.0 ?
>
> Thanks,
> Sandro
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://apache-pivot-developers.417237.n3.nabble.com/jira-Created-PIVOT-435-Override-Settings-of-the-Skin-with-Json-file-tp456414p938796.html
> Sent from the Apache Pivot - Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Re: [jira] Closed: (PIVOT-435) Override Settings of the Skin with
Json file
Posted by Sandro Martini <sa...@gmail.com>.
Hi Greg,
this is great ... have you got a suggestion to start exploring (in next
months) this feature, to prepare a simple tutorial or demos for the 2.0 ?
Thanks,
Sandro
--
View this message in context: http://apache-pivot-developers.417237.n3.nabble.com/jira-Created-PIVOT-435-Override-Settings-of-the-Skin-with-Json-file-tp456414p938796.html
Sent from the Apache Pivot - Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Re: [jira] Closed: (PIVOT-435) Override Settings of the Skin with Json
file
Posted by Greg Brown <gk...@mac.com>.
Yup, that is definitely doable.
On Jul 1, 2010, at 5:29 PM, Sandro Martini wrote:
> Great ... so a new Test application could be interesting to show this
> (with a minimal and default sound).
>
>
> At click on any button in the application sound1 will start (but
> configured one time for all buttons), while another event (click or
> double click) on a list or a table row could play another sound ...
>
> And last, if I'd like to override this behavior only for 1 button
> (removing the effect or changing it), if possible ...
>
>
> What do you think ?
>
> Bye
Re: [jira] Closed: (PIVOT-435) Override Settings of the Skin with
Json file
Posted by Sandro Martini <sa...@gmail.com>.
Great ... so a new Test application could be interesting to show this
(with a minimal and default sound).
At click on any button in the application sound1 will start (but
configured one time for all buttons), while another event (click or
double click) on a list or a table row could play another sound ...
And last, if I'd like to override this behavior only for 1 button
(removing the effect or changing it), if possible ...
What do you think ?
Bye
Re: [jira] Closed: (PIVOT-435) Override Settings of the Skin with Json
file
Posted by Greg Brown <gk...@mac.com>.
>> An application that needs audio could simply use the most appropriate sound library.
> To attach this type of effects to single components/events existing
> features are enough.
> But if you want to do something with a trigger on all button clicks
> for example ?
The recent modifications to enable subclassing of BXMLSerializer might support such an approach.
Re: [jira] Closed: (PIVOT-435) Override Settings of the Skin with
Json file
Posted by Sandro Martini <sa...@gmail.com>.
> I'm not sure I would want to build anything like this into the Terra theme, since the audio files could significantly increase the size of the JAR. Also, a lot of users find gratuitous sound effects annoying.
Yes, I agree with you, this is a feature for not-so-common cases, and
I don't want audio files inside Pivot, as you said.
> The idea to provide a pluggable API is interesting, but might be over-desiging it.
It's true.
> An application that needs audio could simply use the most appropriate sound library.
To attach this type of effects to single components/events existing
features are enough.
But if you want to do something with a trigger on all button clicks
for example ?
A solution to attach a global listener (by default null/none) to
events/classes ?
So in this case I could handle in a transparent way this type of
effects ... but maybe you have other solutions (some type of visual or
non-visual decorator, or a global filter by event/component
class/component name, or other).
Suggestions ?
Bye
Re: [jira] Closed: (PIVOT-435) Override Settings of the Skin with Json
file
Posted by Greg Brown <gk...@mac.com>.
I'm not sure I would want to build anything like this into the Terra theme, since the audio files could significantly increase the size of the JAR. Also, a lot of users find gratuitous sound effects annoying.
The idea to provide a pluggable API is interesting, but might be over-desiging it. An application that needs audio could simply use the most appropriate sound library.
G
On Jul 1, 2010, at 4:40 PM, Sandro Martini wrote:
> Hi to all,
> in some cases, to give users more feedback when for example they click
> on something (mainly on buttons, but maybe also on double click on a
> table row, or a selection on a list), what do you think on add support
> for a sound facility ?
> This feature could be enabled (when desired) at component level, and
> maybe also at global level (all click on buttons of this class, or all
> double-click on a table row, etc).
>
> As for Charts, we could make a pluggable way for this, and provide a
> default implementation only for java supported formats, so if someone
> need this feature could plug its library ... there are many other
> libraries that gives support to MP3, and also OGG formats.
>
> Comments ?
>
>
>
> On Trident I think that some of its features are already in Pivot, and
> probably those missing are not required here (I'm speaking of its
> animation features).
> But as for other libraries (the MIGLayout discussion today, and also
> others) maybe a Trident-side porting to Pivot version could be useful
> ... if / when Trident developers will have time.
>
> Comments ?
>
> Sandro
Re: [jira] Closed: (PIVOT-435) Override Settings of the Skin with Json
file
Posted by Greg Brown <gk...@mac.com>.
Re: Pivot 2.0 - you can see from the road map what features are being considered and/or worked on. If there is something missing that you think should be addressed, feel free to log a ticket for it.
On Jul 2, 2010, at 12:38 PM, aappddeevv wrote:
> My thought is that this could be useful (I personally just need some simple
> clicks and some pivot decorators) but this can be added manually with some
> code. I used java partial classes and my approach is fully generalized for
> sound and animation (and more) but its easy to imagine a simpler style
> parameter linked to a sound.
>
>
> After pretending to look at batik for an hour last night, it may turn out
> that it does some simple animation all on its own. I made a pivot component
> to handle SVG directly (batik based). It could be useful. It turns out that
> it could also be used to render a lot of pivot screens and provide a
> general-purpose rendering engine for copy-and-paste and display content as
> backgrounds, etc. I attached two videos showing it (it also shows
> miglayout's dock mode) as well as the batik port so you can try it. I'll add
> trident to my pivot partial class and see how that looks.
>
> Not sure about charts. I think I read that pivot's are pluggable but I'm not
> sure what that means yet.
>
>
> All of this is quite dandy but I am curious about what features will
> differentiate the pivot platform especially with 2.0 being staked out (or at
> least JIRA issues being pushed into the 2.0 timeframe). Personally, its
> those features that I would like to see the core team focus on versus these
> incremental ones.
>
> Sorry for the email size.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sandro Martini [mailto:sandro.martini@gmail.com]
> Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2010 4:41 PM
> To: dev@pivot.apache.org
> Subject: Re: [jira] Closed: (PIVOT-435) Override Settings of the Skin with
> Json file
>
> Hi to all,
> in some cases, to give users more feedback when for example they click
> on something (mainly on buttons, but maybe also on double click on a
> table row, or a selection on a list), what do you think on add support
> for a sound facility ?
> This feature could be enabled (when desired) at component level, and
> maybe also at global level (all click on buttons of this class, or all
> double-click on a table row, etc).
>
> As for Charts, we could make a pluggable way for this, and provide a
> default implementation only for java supported formats, so if someone
> need this feature could plug its library ... there are many other
> libraries that gives support to MP3, and also OGG formats.
>
> Comments ?
>
>
>
> On Trident I think that some of its features are already in Pivot, and
> probably those missing are not required here (I'm speaking of its
> animation features).
> But as for other libraries (the MIGLayout discussion today, and also
> others) maybe a Trident-side porting to Pivot version could be useful
> ... if / when Trident developers will have time.
>
> Comments ?
>
> Sandro
> <batik-animation.avi.MP4><SVG snapshot with dock.avi.MP4><batik-port.zip>
RE: [jira] Closed: (PIVOT-435) Override Settings of the Skin with Json
file
Posted by aappddeevv <aa...@verizon.net>.
My thought is that this could be useful (I personally just need some simple
clicks and some pivot decorators) but this can be added manually with some
code. I used java partial classes and my approach is fully generalized for
sound and animation (and more) but its easy to imagine a simpler style
parameter linked to a sound.
After pretending to look at batik for an hour last night, it may turn out
that it does some simple animation all on its own. I made a pivot component
to handle SVG directly (batik based). It could be useful. It turns out that
it could also be used to render a lot of pivot screens and provide a
general-purpose rendering engine for copy-and-paste and display content as
backgrounds, etc. I attached two videos showing it (it also shows
miglayout's dock mode) as well as the batik port so you can try it. I'll add
trident to my pivot partial class and see how that looks.
Not sure about charts. I think I read that pivot's are pluggable but I'm not
sure what that means yet.
All of this is quite dandy but I am curious about what features will
differentiate the pivot platform especially with 2.0 being staked out (or at
least JIRA issues being pushed into the 2.0 timeframe). Personally, its
those features that I would like to see the core team focus on versus these
incremental ones.
Sorry for the email size.
-----Original Message-----
From: Sandro Martini [mailto:sandro.martini@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2010 4:41 PM
To: dev@pivot.apache.org
Subject: Re: [jira] Closed: (PIVOT-435) Override Settings of the Skin with
Json file
Hi to all,
in some cases, to give users more feedback when for example they click
on something (mainly on buttons, but maybe also on double click on a
table row, or a selection on a list), what do you think on add support
for a sound facility ?
This feature could be enabled (when desired) at component level, and
maybe also at global level (all click on buttons of this class, or all
double-click on a table row, etc).
As for Charts, we could make a pluggable way for this, and provide a
default implementation only for java supported formats, so if someone
need this feature could plug its library ... there are many other
libraries that gives support to MP3, and also OGG formats.
Comments ?
On Trident I think that some of its features are already in Pivot, and
probably those missing are not required here (I'm speaking of its
animation features).
But as for other libraries (the MIGLayout discussion today, and also
others) maybe a Trident-side porting to Pivot version could be useful
... if / when Trident developers will have time.
Comments ?
Sandro
Re: [jira] Closed: (PIVOT-435) Override Settings of the Skin with
Json file
Posted by Sandro Martini <sa...@gmail.com>.
Hi to all,
in some cases, to give users more feedback when for example they click
on something (mainly on buttons, but maybe also on double click on a
table row, or a selection on a list), what do you think on add support
for a sound facility ?
This feature could be enabled (when desired) at component level, and
maybe also at global level (all click on buttons of this class, or all
double-click on a table row, etc).
As for Charts, we could make a pluggable way for this, and provide a
default implementation only for java supported formats, so if someone
need this feature could plug its library ... there are many other
libraries that gives support to MP3, and also OGG formats.
Comments ?
On Trident I think that some of its features are already in Pivot, and
probably those missing are not required here (I'm speaking of its
animation features).
But as for other libraries (the MIGLayout discussion today, and also
others) maybe a Trident-side porting to Pivot version could be useful
... if / when Trident developers will have time.
Comments ?
Sandro
RE: [jira] Closed: (PIVOT-435) Override Settings of the Skin with Json
file
Posted by aappddeevv <aa...@verizon.net>.
Yes, it looks that way. Works fine for my simple use cases which are mostly
around playing sounds for mousing and button pressing. There's even an
entire web site dedicated to providing open licensed wav clips to play!
-----Original Message-----
From: Noel Grandin [mailto:noelgrandin@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2010 10:25 AM
To: dev@pivot.apache.org
Cc: aappddeevv
Subject: Re: [jira] Closed: (PIVOT-435) Override Settings of the Skin with
Json file
The standard javasound API is pretty decent at playing WAV files.
aappddeevv wrote:
> All of this is in the ITD. Sounds works fine triggered off mouse or button
> events, etc. It turns out that there is no sound support in pivot, which
> should have been obvious to me, because it is already built into base
java.
> I'll add trident support to finish out my use case needs but I have not
seen
> whether there is a trident pivot port yet.
Re: [jira] Closed: (PIVOT-435) Override Settings of the Skin with
Json file
Posted by Noel Grandin <no...@gmail.com>.
The standard javasound API is pretty decent at playing WAV files.
aappddeevv wrote:
> All of this is in the ITD. Sounds works fine triggered off mouse or button
> events, etc. It turns out that there is no sound support in pivot, which
> should have been obvious to me, because it is already built into base java.
> I'll add trident support to finish out my use case needs but I have not seen
> whether there is a trident pivot port yet.
RE: [jira] Closed: (PIVOT-435) Override Settings of the Skin with Json
file
Posted by aappddeevv <aa...@verizon.net>.
All of this is in the ITD. Sounds works fine triggered off mouse or button
events, etc. It turns out that there is no sound support in pivot, which
should have been obvious to me, because it is already built into base java.
I'll add trident support to finish out my use case needs but I have not seen
whether there is a trident pivot port yet.
-----Original Message-----
From: Sandro Martini [mailto:sandro.martini@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2010 9:54 AM
To: dev@pivot.apache.org
Subject: RE: [jira] Closed: (PIVOT-435) Override Settings of the Skin with
Json file
> I'm not recommending this for pivot main stream, just for folks who need
to
do that now.
Ok, thanks for now.
> I fixed the global application resources issue. It works as expected.
This fix is in your code or in Pivot code ?
> If pivot had a way to play sound, I would add in a sound "action" that's
> triggerable for demonstration purposes.
yes, could be an interesting thing to have, what others say ?
Bye
--
View this message in context:
http://apache-pivot-developers.417237.n3.nabble.com/jira-Created-PIVOT-435-O
verride-Settings-of-the-Skin-with-Json-file-tp456414p936179.html
Sent from the Apache Pivot - Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
RE: [jira] Closed: (PIVOT-435) Override Settings of the Skin with
Json file
Posted by Sandro Martini <sa...@gmail.com>.
> I'm not recommending this for pivot main stream, just for folks who need to
do that now.
Ok, thanks for now.
> I fixed the global application resources issue. It works as expected.
This fix is in your code or in Pivot code ?
> If pivot had a way to play sound, I would add in a sound "action" that's
> triggerable for demonstration purposes.
yes, could be an interesting thing to have, what others say ?
Bye
--
View this message in context: http://apache-pivot-developers.417237.n3.nabble.com/jira-Created-PIVOT-435-Override-Settings-of-the-Skin-with-Json-file-tp456414p936179.html
Sent from the Apache Pivot - Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
RE: [jira] Closed: (PIVOT-435) Override Settings of the Skin with Json
file
Posted by aappddeevv <aa...@verizon.net>.
I'm not recommending this for pivot main stream, just for folks who need to
do that now. I fixed the global application resources issue. It works as
expected. If pivot had a way to play sound, I would add in a sound "action"
that's triggerable for demonstration purposes.
-----Original Message-----
From: Sandro Martini [mailto:sandro.martini@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 9:19 AM
To: dev@pivot.apache.org
Subject: RE: [jira] Closed: (PIVOT-435) Override Settings of the Skin with
Json file
Hi,
thanks for the trick, but don't worry I can wait until you have something
working to see, no problem ...
But my fear is to introduce something too complex (complex in code and/or in
builds) ... in any case any suggestion is welcome.
Thank you and good work,
Sandro
--
View this message in context:
http://apache-pivot-developers.417237.n3.nabble.com/jira-Created-PIVOT-435-O
verride-Settings-of-the-Skin-with-Json-file-tp456414p933186.html
Sent from the Apache Pivot - Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
RE: [jira] Closed: (PIVOT-435) Override Settings of the Skin with
Json file
Posted by Sandro Martini <sa...@gmail.com>.
Hi,
thanks for the trick, but don't worry I can wait until you have something
working to see, no problem ...
But my fear is to introduce something too complex (complex in code and/or in
builds) ... in any case any suggestion is welcome.
Thank you and good work,
Sandro
--
View this message in context: http://apache-pivot-developers.417237.n3.nabble.com/jira-Created-PIVOT-435-Override-Settings-of-the-Skin-with-Json-file-tp456414p933186.html
Sent from the Apache Pivot - Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
RE: [jira] Closed: (PIVOT-435) Override Settings of the Skin with Json
file
Posted by aappddeevv <aa...@verizon.net>.
It's an aspect. Spring root started using this term a lot to describe
partial classes in java. Works quite well which shocked me except the build
process is more complicated but not impossible.
You can write bxml like below on your toplevel object and have it work as
you would expect except where component's are NOT part of the component tree
(which may happen with renderers, but I'll look into that on Fri):
<userData>
<label1>
<ComponentAction targetType="org.apache.pivot.wtk.Label">
<ApplyStyles styles="{backgroundColor:'#ff0000',
font:'Courier 10'}"/>
<ApplyStyles styles="{color:'#0000ff'}"/> <!-- Just
showing multiple style applys -->
</ComponentAction>
</label1>
<blahText>
<ComponentAction targetType="org.apache.pivot.wtk.TextInput">
<triggers>
<Trigger value="{focused:true}">
<ApplyStyles
styles="{backgroundColor:'#0000ff'}"/>
</Trigger>
</triggers>
</ComponentAction>
</blahText>
</userData>
I have some other simpler implementations but they are much more limited in
capabilities. You can make an action anything you want e.g. replace
ApplyStyles with something else. I have a property setter action as well.
None if it is exceptionally well tested and rapid style shifting has some
structural marshalling/unmarshalling issues. I just broke the code adding
global resource dictionaries so I'll have to fix it again tomorrow when I
get a chance.
I think both CSS-like styling and WPF-like-everything-in-XAML are both hard
and complex for various reasons so I don't know what a good answer is to
this. I've probably spent an entire day's worth of hours over the past few
weeks putting this together while learning pivot so the investment is not
large but certainly reinforces GregB's thoughts that this a capability like
this needs more baking time and well-defined objectives.
-----Original Message-----
From: Sandro Martini [mailto:sandro.martini@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2010 6:02 PM
To: dev@pivot.apache.org
Subject: Re: [jira] Closed: (PIVOT-435) Override Settings of the Skin with
Json file
Hi,
thanks for your help also on this :-) , probably as Greg said there
will be a full solution in another way, but if there is a simple
(maybe partial) solution now, why not try it ?
Maybe for the 1.5.1 maintenance release ... but after all team members
have tried it :-)
> (assuming json keys can contain dots)
from what I remember Pivot json classes should be able to use dots
inside keys, to have a sort of xpath feature inside data structures
> If you think you could use the ITD, I'll quickly add it before my next
phone call.
yes, I'm curious on this, if you have some spare time to make it I'll
be happy to try ...
Excuse me, what is the "ITD" ?
Bye,
Sandro
Re: [jira] Closed: (PIVOT-435) Override Settings of the Skin with
Json file
Posted by Sandro Martini <sa...@gmail.com>.
Hi,
thanks for your help also on this :-) , probably as Greg said there
will be a full solution in another way, but if there is a simple
(maybe partial) solution now, why not try it ?
Maybe for the 1.5.1 maintenance release ... but after all team members
have tried it :-)
> (assuming json keys can contain dots)
from what I remember Pivot json classes should be able to use dots
inside keys, to have a sort of xpath feature inside data structures
> If you think you could use the ITD, I'll quickly add it before my next phone call.
yes, I'm curious on this, if you have some spare time to make it I'll
be happy to try ...
Excuse me, what is the "ITD" ?
Bye,
Sandro
RE: [jira] Closed: (PIVOT-435) Override Settings of the Skin with Json
file
Posted by aappddeevv <aa...@verizon.net>.
Sandro,
You can do this already for component's in the tree if you write a small
amount of code. Its not a complete solution but if you just want to
automatically override some style settings, you can, and you can do it all
in bxml.
I attached the ITD for it, but I think I also have the code sitting around
to do this on per-component basis so no ITDs are needed. A small enhancement
to the ITD would allow you to have overriding styles set in a json (assuming
json keys can contain dots) or bxml file and implement the application
override you are looking for. If you think you could use the ITD, I'll
quickly add it before my next phone call.
-----Original Message-----
From: Greg Brown (JIRA) [mailto:jira@apache.org]
Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2010 2:46 PM
To: dev@pivot.apache.org
Subject: [jira] Closed: (PIVOT-435) Override Settings of the Skin with Json
file
[
https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/PIVOT-435?page=com.atlassian.jira.plug
in.system.issuetabpanels:all-tabpanel ]
Greg Brown closed PIVOT-435.
----------------------------
Fix Version/s: (was: 2.0)
Resolution: Invalid
This type of functionality will be provided via another means.
> Override Settings of the Skin with Json file
> --------------------------------------------
>
> Key: PIVOT-435
> URL: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/PIVOT-435
> Project: Pivot
> Issue Type: New Feature
> Components: wtk-terra
> Reporter: Sandro Martini
> Priority: Minor
>
> add the ability to put all overrides (to the skin) in the optional json
file, like some kind of global style.
> Currently we put there only custom colors (and only some other values),
and load it if given to the JVM as a startup property, but in the future we
could put there all parameters that we want to override, like with CSS:
> I imagine something like: always load the skin default json file, then if
given, try to load the custom file and apply over all the settings, like
"all label texts in bold" and other ... if not too complex.
--
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You can reply to this email to add a comment to the issue online.
[jira] Closed: (PIVOT-435) Override Settings of the Skin with Json
file
Posted by "Greg Brown (JIRA)" <ji...@apache.org>.
[ https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/PIVOT-435?page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:all-tabpanel ]
Greg Brown closed PIVOT-435.
----------------------------
Fix Version/s: (was: 2.0)
Resolution: Invalid
This type of functionality will be provided via another means.
> Override Settings of the Skin with Json file
> --------------------------------------------
>
> Key: PIVOT-435
> URL: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/PIVOT-435
> Project: Pivot
> Issue Type: New Feature
> Components: wtk-terra
> Reporter: Sandro Martini
> Priority: Minor
>
> add the ability to put all overrides (to the skin) in the optional json file, like some kind of global style.
> Currently we put there only custom colors (and only some other values), and load it if given to the JVM as a startup property, but in the future we could put there all parameters that we want to override, like with CSS:
> I imagine something like: always load the skin default json file, then if given, try to load the custom file and apply over all the settings, like "all label texts in bold" and other ... if not too complex.
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