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Posted to dev@community.apache.org by Raphael Bircher <rb...@gmail.com> on 2017/01/18 13:44:03 UTC
Working Ecosystems at ASF
Hi at all
According the survey, there are only 50% of the developers spare time
developers. The rest works during there worktime. My question is, what for
models are used outthere. I'm interested how the model works. So other
Apache project can learn from it. Has anybody ever used crowd funding to
cover development costs?
Regards Raphael
--
Mein Blog: https://raphaelbircher.blogspot.ch
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Re: Working Ecosystems at ASF
Posted by Matthew Sacks <ma...@matthewsacks.com>.
1++
On Wed, Jan 18, 2017 at 6:48 PM Hadrian Zbarcea <hz...@gmail.com> wrote:
> David, your answer gets 5 stars from me.
>
>
>
> On the funding piece we didn't even try because we don't want to go
>
> there. It's not really a cause, more like an effect.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Hadrian
>
>
>
>
>
> On 01/18/2017 06:01 PM, David Nalley wrote:
>
> > On Wed, Jan 18, 2017 at 9:33 AM, Raphael Bircher
>
> > <rb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> Hi Bertrand
>
> >>
>
> >> Am .01.2017, 15:03 Uhr, schrieb Bertrand Delacretaz
>
> >> <bd...@apache.org>:
>
> >>
>
> >>> Hi Raphael,
>
> >>>
>
> >>> On Wed, Jan 18, 2017 at 2:44 PM, Raphael Bircher
>
> >>> <rb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>
>
> >>>> ...Has anybody ever used crowd funding to cover development costs?...
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
>
> >>> I know of one documented case,
>
> >>> http://community.apache.org/committers/funding-disclaimer.html but I
>
> >>> don't have info on how well it went.
>
> >>>
>
> >>> The disclaimer was important to properly dissociate such initiatives
>
> >>> form the ASF, which does not fund software development.
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> Thanks for the link. This rise a question, i got never a real answer
> for it.
>
> >> Why ASF dosen't found Developers?. Some people say, because to
> non-profit
>
> >> status. Others say, this are our rules. But what are the reasons
> behind. It
>
> >> would be nice, if someone take the time to explain this.
>
> >>
>
> >
>
> > Resources and positions are always limited.
>
> > Hiring a developer and deciding what they are going to work on means
>
> > you are essentially picking what is important to the Foundation. The
>
> > ASF has long said that it is happy to pick runners not winners. That
>
> > means that we are happy for projects, even projects that compete with
>
> > each other, to call the ASF home. We hope they are all successful, but
>
> > we are essentially letting the community decide where to allocate its
>
> > time. When you pay people, you have to decide what they are going to
>
> > work on, and even what specific aspects of that project that they are
>
> > going to work on. This means someone who controls the payroll can
>
> > decide which of two competing projects gets more resources, and
>
> > potentially even effect the direction that they are headed in
>
> > technically.
>
> >
>
> > It also has the side effect of creating a division between the
>
> > developers paid by the ASF and those who aren't. (Read that as the
>
> > privileged developers, and the the unprivileged developers.) Today,
>
> > everyone (in the eyes of the ASF) is on equal footing because no
>
> > developer is employed by the ASF to work on code at the ASF.
>
> >
>
> > Finally - we frankly don't have the money to do so.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > --David
>
> >
>
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
>
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
>
> >
>
>
>
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>
>
>
Re: Working Ecosystems at ASF
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
On Thu, Jan 19, 2017 at 10:48 AM, Hadrian Zbarcea <hz...@gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> David, your answer gets 5 stars from me.
Ditto... End of the day, the money for said paid developers will be coming
from some monetary contributors, and instead of fighting that they have no
say in how the money is to be spent, we can simply say "Hire the developers
yourself, and do the work you see most fit for you.", which is what happens
in reality.
If you look at the "local time of commits", I think it is pretty clear that
a large portion of all contributions are "at work" or "paid for". And we
are fine with that...
A more interesting question would be; Are projects allowed "Hire a
community member" pages, where individuals can announce their availability
to get paid to work on features or even downstream application of their
Apache Foo project? I can't recall seeing that, although there are such
pages referencing hiring entire companies for this. So, I am curious
whether a market actually exist... since I have on a couple of occasions
secured freelance contracts (without the advert/announcement of
availability) at ASF projects.
Cheers
--
Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer
http://polygene.apache.org - New Energy for Java
Re: Working Ecosystems at ASF
Posted by Hadrian Zbarcea <hz...@gmail.com>.
David, your answer gets 5 stars from me.
On the funding piece we didn't even try because we don't want to go
there. It's not really a cause, more like an effect.
Cheers,
Hadrian
On 01/18/2017 06:01 PM, David Nalley wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 18, 2017 at 9:33 AM, Raphael Bircher
> <rb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi Bertrand
>>
>> Am .01.2017, 15:03 Uhr, schrieb Bertrand Delacretaz
>> <bd...@apache.org>:
>>
>>> Hi Raphael,
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jan 18, 2017 at 2:44 PM, Raphael Bircher
>>> <rb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> ...Has anybody ever used crowd funding to cover development costs?...
>>>
>>>
>>> I know of one documented case,
>>> http://community.apache.org/committers/funding-disclaimer.html but I
>>> don't have info on how well it went.
>>>
>>> The disclaimer was important to properly dissociate such initiatives
>>> form the ASF, which does not fund software development.
>>
>>
>> Thanks for the link. This rise a question, i got never a real answer for it.
>> Why ASF dosen't found Developers?. Some people say, because to non-profit
>> status. Others say, this are our rules. But what are the reasons behind. It
>> would be nice, if someone take the time to explain this.
>>
>
> Resources and positions are always limited.
> Hiring a developer and deciding what they are going to work on means
> you are essentially picking what is important to the Foundation. The
> ASF has long said that it is happy to pick runners not winners. That
> means that we are happy for projects, even projects that compete with
> each other, to call the ASF home. We hope they are all successful, but
> we are essentially letting the community decide where to allocate its
> time. When you pay people, you have to decide what they are going to
> work on, and even what specific aspects of that project that they are
> going to work on. This means someone who controls the payroll can
> decide which of two competing projects gets more resources, and
> potentially even effect the direction that they are headed in
> technically.
>
> It also has the side effect of creating a division between the
> developers paid by the ASF and those who aren't. (Read that as the
> privileged developers, and the the unprivileged developers.) Today,
> everyone (in the eyes of the ASF) is on equal footing because no
> developer is employed by the ASF to work on code at the ASF.
>
> Finally - we frankly don't have the money to do so.
>
>
> --David
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
>
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Re: Working Ecosystems at ASF
Posted by David Nalley <da...@gnsa.us>.
On Wed, Jan 18, 2017 at 9:33 AM, Raphael Bircher
<rb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Bertrand
>
> Am .01.2017, 15:03 Uhr, schrieb Bertrand Delacretaz
> <bd...@apache.org>:
>
>> Hi Raphael,
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 18, 2017 at 2:44 PM, Raphael Bircher
>> <rb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> ...Has anybody ever used crowd funding to cover development costs?...
>>
>>
>> I know of one documented case,
>> http://community.apache.org/committers/funding-disclaimer.html but I
>> don't have info on how well it went.
>>
>> The disclaimer was important to properly dissociate such initiatives
>> form the ASF, which does not fund software development.
>
>
> Thanks for the link. This rise a question, i got never a real answer for it.
> Why ASF dosen't found Developers?. Some people say, because to non-profit
> status. Others say, this are our rules. But what are the reasons behind. It
> would be nice, if someone take the time to explain this.
>
Resources and positions are always limited.
Hiring a developer and deciding what they are going to work on means
you are essentially picking what is important to the Foundation. The
ASF has long said that it is happy to pick runners not winners. That
means that we are happy for projects, even projects that compete with
each other, to call the ASF home. We hope they are all successful, but
we are essentially letting the community decide where to allocate its
time. When you pay people, you have to decide what they are going to
work on, and even what specific aspects of that project that they are
going to work on. This means someone who controls the payroll can
decide which of two competing projects gets more resources, and
potentially even effect the direction that they are headed in
technically.
It also has the side effect of creating a division between the
developers paid by the ASF and those who aren't. (Read that as the
privileged developers, and the the unprivileged developers.) Today,
everyone (in the eyes of the ASF) is on equal footing because no
developer is employed by the ASF to work on code at the ASF.
Finally - we frankly don't have the money to do so.
--David
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Re: Working Ecosystems at ASF
Posted by Phil Steitz <ph...@gmail.com>.
On 1/18/17 8:03 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
> Hi Raphael,
>
> On Wed, Jan 18, 2017 at 3:33 PM, Raphael Bircher
> <rb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> ...Why ASF dosen't found Developers?. Some people say, because to non-profit
>> status. Others say, this are our rules....
> "These are our rules" would be a bad answer IMO ;-)
>
> The way I see it, the ASF funding development would create advantages
> for companies which depend on funded projects, which is incompatible
> with our charity status.
There are a lot of other non-profit charities that pay people to
pursue their core mission and in fact the ASF now pays people to
work on infrastructure, so I don't think this really has (or has to
have) anything to do with our nonprofit status. I think the
long-standing tradition of the ASF not paying "volunteers" to code
on projects derives more from the first part of your answer: we
don't want to pick winners. Also, we want to encourage actual
volunteering.
>
> Strict rules might help avoid that but it's probably much easier to
> handle funding independently of the ASF, as was done in the example
> that I mentioned here earlier.
+1
I guess that's another reason that we don't pay developers: others
means exist to get funding and we have neither need nor desire to
get into that.
Phil
>
> -Bertrand
>
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>
>
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Re: Working Ecosystems at ASF
Posted by Mark Thomas <ma...@apache.org>.
On 18/01/2017 17:04, \u674e \u94ed wrote:
<snip/>
This [insert noun of choice here] has been removed from this list for
spamming.
While I was at it I checked and there are not subscribed to any other
ASF lists.
Mark
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Re: Re: Working Ecosystems at ASF
Posted by 李 铭 <gi...@hotmail.com>.
分享Various Artists的专辑《Monstercat 013 - Awakening》: http://music.163.com/album/2516389/?userid=89343541 (来自@网易云音乐)
Sent from Netease Mail
On 2017-01-18 23:03 , Bertrand Delacretaz<ma...@apache.org> Wrote:
Hi Raphael,
On Wed, Jan 18, 2017 at 3:33 PM, Raphael Bircher
<rb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ...Why ASF dosen't found Developers?. Some people say, because to non-profit
> status. Others say, this are our rules....
"These are our rules" would be a bad answer IMO ;-)
The way I see it, the ASF funding development would create advantages
for companies which depend on funded projects, which is incompatible
with our charity status.
Strict rules might help avoid that but it's probably much easier to
handle funding independently of the ASF, as was done in the example
that I mentioned here earlier.
-Bertrand
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Re: Working Ecosystems at ASF
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
Hi Raphael,
On Wed, Jan 18, 2017 at 3:33 PM, Raphael Bircher
<rb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ...Why ASF dosen't found Developers?. Some people say, because to non-profit
> status. Others say, this are our rules....
"These are our rules" would be a bad answer IMO ;-)
The way I see it, the ASF funding development would create advantages
for companies which depend on funded projects, which is incompatible
with our charity status.
Strict rules might help avoid that but it's probably much easier to
handle funding independently of the ASF, as was done in the example
that I mentioned here earlier.
-Bertrand
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Re: Working Ecosystems at ASF
Posted by Raphael Bircher <rb...@gmail.com>.
Hi Bertrand
Am .01.2017, 15:03 Uhr, schrieb Bertrand Delacretaz
<bd...@apache.org>:
> Hi Raphael,
>
> On Wed, Jan 18, 2017 at 2:44 PM, Raphael Bircher
> <rb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> ...Has anybody ever used crowd funding to cover development costs?...
>
> I know of one documented case,
> http://community.apache.org/committers/funding-disclaimer.html but I
> don't have info on how well it went.
>
> The disclaimer was important to properly dissociate such initiatives
> form the ASF, which does not fund software development.
Thanks for the link. This rise a question, i got never a real answer for
it. Why ASF dosen't found Developers?. Some people say, because to
non-profit status. Others say, this are our rules. But what are the
reasons behind. It would be nice, if someone take the time to explain this.
Regards, Raphael
--
Mein Blog: https://raphaelbircher.blogspot.ch
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Re: Working Ecosystems at ASF
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
Hi Raphael,
On Wed, Jan 18, 2017 at 2:44 PM, Raphael Bircher
<rb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ...Has anybody ever used crowd funding to cover development costs?...
I know of one documented case,
http://community.apache.org/committers/funding-disclaimer.html but I
don't have info on how well it went.
The disclaimer was important to properly dissociate such initiatives
form the ASF, which does not fund software development.
-Bertrand
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