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Posted to dev@subversion.apache.org by Mike Mason <mg...@thoughtworks.net> on 2003/12/12 09:45:04 UTC
[OT] Re: [BUG] The client can't use a different directory than .svn
Ryan Hunt wrote:
>
> While disk space is cheep my WC will be 5TB before year end next year
> if all goes well. Even using Apple XRaids, which are the cheapest per
> GB around, it would cost $25,000 for each additional WC. Not
> something I will be able to get pushed through the budget with out
> some mission critical cause.
Your working copy is 5TB and you need to access all of it all of the
time? You couldn't check out just the portion you're working on (or that
each person is working on) ? I can't help but think that you're trying
to do something here that traditional source-control isn't mean to do.
I'm very interested in understanding more about the "big WC needs to be
shared" scenario, since several people have mentioned it.
Cheers,
Mike.
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[OT:really:OT] Re: [OT] Re: [BUG] The client can't use a different directory than .svn
Posted by Ryan Hunt <rh...@hp.com>.
On Dec 12, 2003, at 10:32 AM, Mike Mason wrote:
> Ryan Hunt wrote:
>> The disk images are read only for all but the maintainer group of not
>> more than 5-10 people. The rest just read the files.
>
> (We're probably boring people by now, sorry folks!)
>
> So a user has a disk image, they're using it, running a VM, have it
> mounted, whatever. A maintainer comes along and wants to change that
> image -- how do they do that? Do they do it under the feet of the
> person who has it mounted, or must they wait for a dismount?
>
preferably a maintenance time would be preferred, but the owner of the
file can theoretically rip the image out from under the user.
> Could you have a mechanism where each user has a selection of the
> images checked out (their own WC with a few images in it) on a local
> disk, and a script that updates their images when a new version is
> available? Something like a nightly "svn update" to get the latest
> changes.
This would be nice in many ways, but disk space can be a problem on the
client. Also the network traffic can get to be too much of a problem
if the client base is sizable
> How fast should a user get the changes made by a maintainer?
> Instantly? Within an hour? Overnight?
>
Instantly.
> Could you have a read-only WC for all of your users with automated
> "svn update" running over the full 5TB, and individual (smaller)
> working copies for each of the maintainers who actually need to change
> the files?
>
To complicated. We are trying to move to an automated system.
Are you working with VMware at all? VirtualPC?
-Ryan
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Re: [OT] Re: [BUG] The client can't use a different directory than
.svn
Posted by Mike Mason <mg...@thoughtworks.net>.
Ryan Hunt wrote:
>
> The disk images are read only for all but the maintainer group of not
> more than 5-10 people. The rest just read the files.
(We're probably boring people by now, sorry folks!)
So a user has a disk image, they're using it, running a VM, have it
mounted, whatever. A maintainer comes along and wants to change that
image -- how do they do that? Do they do it under the feet of the person
who has it mounted, or must they wait for a dismount?
Could you have a mechanism where each user has a selection of the images
checked out (their own WC with a few images in it) on a local disk, and
a script that updates their images when a new version is available?
Something like a nightly "svn update" to get the latest changes.
How fast should a user get the changes made by a maintainer? Instantly?
Within an hour? Overnight?
Could you have a read-only WC for all of your users with automated "svn
update" running over the full 5TB, and individual (smaller) working
copies for each of the maintainers who actually need to change the files?
Cheers,
Mike.
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Re: [OT] Re: [BUG] The client can't use a different directory than .svn
Posted by Benjamin Pflugmann <be...@pflugmann.de>.
On Fri 2003-12-12 at 09:46:21 -0700, Ryan Hunt wrote:
> On Dec 12, 2003, at 7:13 AM, Mike Mason wrote:
[...]
> >So, as a maintainer, can I simply check out the disk images I wish to
> >work on on a particular day? Do I really need to be able to see all of
> >those disk images at once? Can you organise the set of disk images
> >into different directories, allowing me as a maintainer to just check
> >out a subset of those images? Subversion keeps pristine copies of all
> >the files in a WC, so for a 200G disk on a workstation you can have
> >100G of files checked out. That's 50 - 300 disk images.
> >
>
> If it was just the maintainer that would be fine, but there are users
> as well.
But you say below that the users are not changing anything.
[...]
> >I agree that snapshots are not quite what you want, but I also reckon
> >a WC with 500 users is not what you want either. Having binary files
> >checked into source control causes problems when multiple people
> >change them, because they cannot be merged, so you need some form of
> >locking. A single WC as the locking mechanism sounds like overkill
> >though!
>
> The disk images are read only for all but the maintainer group of not
> more than 5-10 people. The rest just read the files.
For read-only users, the Subversion part of the WC does not matter.
You could use an exported tree as well, theoretically.
So give your users a shared WC or export of your tree, on that 5TB
disk array, and give your maintainers each his/her own WC to work
with, which needs only to hold the images they currently work on.
No (writeable) shared WCs needed. Or did I miss something?
Bye,
Benjamin.
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Re: [OT] Re: [BUG] The client can't use a different directory than .svn
Posted by Ryan Hunt <rh...@hp.com>.
On Dec 12, 2003, at 7:13 AM, Mike Mason wrote:
> Ryan Hunt wrote:
>
>> Well, I can't speak for others, but my needs for the "big WC needs to
>> be shared" scenario is for multiple maintainers to be able to work on
>> and maintain a tree of disk images which can be anywhere from
>> 300MB-2GB each. Because of the size it doesn't make sense to have
>> multiple WC's . I need access to it all of it all of the time
>> because all of the disk images in the WC are going to be live and
>> actively used by potentially as many as 500-1000 users
>> simultaneously.
>
>
> So, as a maintainer, can I simply check out the disk images I wish to
> work on on a particular day? Do I really need to be able to see all of
> those disk images at once? Can you organise the set of disk images
> into different directories, allowing me as a maintainer to just check
> out a subset of those images? Subversion keeps pristine copies of all
> the files in a WC, so for a 200G disk on a workstation you can have
> 100G of files checked out. That's 50 - 300 disk images.
>
If it was just the maintainer that would be fine, but there are users
as well.
> By "live and actively used" does that mean they're going to be in use
> by multiple processes on different machines at the same time?
yep.
> Will that actually work?
yep.
> Are these virtual disks for VMware or something?
some yep.
>
>> In my case NAS snapshots were postulated as an alternative, however,
>> this is not feasible due to the large amount of space this would
>> require, and its inherent inflexibility. The specific features of
>> SVN that are attractive in my situation are: cheap branching and
>> copying, the ability to revert to any revision of a disk image, the
>> ability to rapidly undo changes that were made using svn revert, and
>> the ability to track changes made via the log mechanism.
>
>
> I agree that snapshots are not quite what you want, but I also reckon
> a WC with 500 users is not what you want either. Having binary files
> checked into source control causes problems when multiple people
> change them, because they cannot be merged, so you need some form of
> locking. A single WC as the locking mechanism sounds like overkill
> though!
The disk images are read only for all but the maintainer group of not
more than 5-10 people. The rest just read the files.
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Re: [OT] Re: [BUG] The client can't use a different directory than
.svn
Posted by Mike Mason <mg...@thoughtworks.net>.
Ryan Hunt wrote:
> Well, I can't speak for others, but my needs for the "big WC needs to
> be shared" scenario is for multiple maintainers to be able to work on
> and maintain a tree of disk images which can be anywhere from
> 300MB-2GB each. Because of the size it doesn't make sense to have
> multiple WC's . I need access to it all of it all of the time because
> all of the disk images in the WC are going to be live and actively
> used by potentially as many as 500-1000 users simultaneously.
So, as a maintainer, can I simply check out the disk images I wish to
work on on a particular day? Do I really need to be able to see all of
those disk images at once? Can you organise the set of disk images into
different directories, allowing me as a maintainer to just check out a
subset of those images? Subversion keeps pristine copies of all the
files in a WC, so for a 200G disk on a workstation you can have 100G of
files checked out. That's 50 - 300 disk images.
By "live and actively used" does that mean they're going to be in use by
multiple processes on different machines at the same time? Will that
actually work? Are these virtual disks for VMware or something?
> In my case NAS snapshots were postulated as an alternative, however,
> this is not feasible due to the large amount of space this would
> require, and its inherent inflexibility. The specific features of SVN
> that are attractive in my situation are: cheap branching and copying,
> the ability to revert to any revision of a disk image, the ability to
> rapidly undo changes that were made using svn revert, and the ability
> to track changes made via the log mechanism.
I agree that snapshots are not quite what you want, but I also reckon a
WC with 500 users is not what you want either. Having binary files
checked into source control causes problems when multiple people change
them, because they cannot be merged, so you need some form of locking. A
single WC as the locking mechanism sounds like overkill though!
Cheers,
Mike.
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Re: [OT] Re: [BUG] The client can't use a different directory than .svn
Posted by Ryan Hunt <rh...@hp.com>.
On Dec 12, 2003, at 2:45 AM, Mike Mason wrote:
> Ryan Hunt wrote:
>> While disk space is cheep my WC will be 5TB before year end next year
>> if all goes well. Even using Apple XRaids, which are the cheapest
>> per GB around, it would cost $25,000 for each additional WC. Not
>> something I will be able to get pushed through the budget with out
>> some mission critical cause.
>
> Your working copy is 5TB and you need to access all of it all of the
> time? You couldn't check out just the portion you're working on (or
> that each person is working on) ? I can't help but think that you're
> trying to do something here that traditional source-control isn't mean
> to do. I'm very interested in understanding more about the "big WC
> needs to be shared" scenario, since several people have mentioned it.
Well, I can't speak for others, but my needs for the "big WC needs to
be shared" scenario is for multiple maintainers to be able to work on
and maintain a tree of disk images which can be anywhere from 300MB-2GB
each. Because of the size it doesn't make sense to have multiple WC's
. I need access to it all of it all of the time because all of the
disk images in the WC are going to be live and actively used by
potentially as many as 500-1000 users simultaneously.
In my case NAS snapshots were postulated as an alternative, however,
this is not feasible due to the large amount of space this would
require, and its inherent inflexibility. The specific features of SVN
that are attractive in my situation are: cheap branching and copying,
the ability to revert to any revision of a disk image, the ability to
rapidly undo changes that were made using svn revert, and the ability
to track changes made via the log mechanism.
-Ryan
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