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Posted to dev@flex.apache.org by Rafael Santos <rs...@spectacompany.com.br> on 2012/03/01 13:46:42 UTC
[OT] Thoughts on a Apache Flex MVC Framework
I would like to hear from everyone about this....
I have being developing a MVC Framework for Flex for the last 3-4 years
now. The framework is based on Fake Framework that is on Google Code.
Since last year we wanted to make it opensource, but I did not have the
quality time to setup a page, examples, videos, documentation and stuff
like that.
The framework was written for Flex 3.5 but can be easily migrated to 4.x
since most of it is AS.
Some Features:
- MVC oriented architecture
- Interface oriented architecture
- Multiple datasurces
- Scaffolding Controller
- Scaffolding Form => This is a relly advanced form builder
- Around 30 Form components
- Filter support with around 10 filter components
- and so on....
Would the community be interested in that?
I could commit everything I have so far to a whiteboard and place a video
sample of me building a Contact List to give an idea on how it works. I
also have some unit testing classes that I need to migrate to the latest
version as well....
I dont know if Adobe have donated Cairngorm as well, but this framework is
much simplier, but scalable. We use it to build around 12 applications that
have around 300 database tables and work together in a Application Server
we also developed.
Rafael Santos - Specta
@rafaelspecta
Re: [OT] Thoughts on a Apache Flex MVC Framework
Posted by Arnoud Bos <ar...@artim-interactive.nl>.
count me in!
Arnoud
On 01-03-2012, at 13:46, Rafael Santos wrote:
> I would like to hear from everyone about this....
>
> I have being developing a MVC Framework for Flex for the last 3-4 years
> now. The framework is based on Fake Framework that is on Google Code.
>
> Since last year we wanted to make it opensource, but I did not have the
> quality time to setup a page, examples, videos, documentation and stuff
> like that.
>
> The framework was written for Flex 3.5 but can be easily migrated to 4.x
> since most of it is AS.
>
> Some Features:
>
> - MVC oriented architecture
> - Interface oriented architecture
> - Multiple datasurces
> - Scaffolding Controller
> - Scaffolding Form => This is a relly advanced form builder
> - Around 30 Form components
> - Filter support with around 10 filter components
> - and so on....
>
>
> Would the community be interested in that?
>
> I could commit everything I have so far to a whiteboard and place a video
> sample of me building a Contact List to give an idea on how it works. I
> also have some unit testing classes that I need to migrate to the latest
> version as well....
>
> I dont know if Adobe have donated Cairngorm as well, but this framework is
> much simplier, but scalable. We use it to build around 12 applications that
> have around 300 database tables and work together in a Application Server
> we also developed.
>
>
> Rafael Santos - Specta
> @rafaelspecta
Met vriendelijke groet,
Arnoud Bos
Artim interactive
T +31 6 246 40 216
E arnoud@artim-interactive.nl
Re: [OT] Thoughts on a Apache Flex MVC Framework
Posted by Charles Monteiro <ch...@nycsmalltalk.org>.
There's a difference between a plugin to a framework and "goodies" / "gem"
like repository. The difference is that a "goodies" repository depends on
the its "universe" typically that being a language and if done well its
declared dependencies to other entities. A plugin is a direct extension to
a framework. My question was whether there was a "goodies" repository in
general and again pardon the newbiness, I did not mean exclusively to the
Flex framework,
Rafael, I don't think you have to work too hard on the branding and if you
want to get feedback sooner than later I think that GitHub is an excellent
place to store the code plus you can put up some basic docs or readme
instructions quickly and it will all look very nice and tiddy. For now, a
nicely searchable wiki with categories and tags for the various "goodies"
would be an excellent start.
MVC is a natural intuitive separation of concerns so not overly complicated
to I guess those that are accustomed to it. In my case , as a Smalltalker I
have been working with only MVC UI frameworks since 94 so I welcome them
and personally would rather see your stuff sooner than later :)
On Thu, Mar 1, 2012 at 12:36 PM, Igor Costa <ig...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I always believe that an MVC approach into Flex SDK will succumb the
> freedom of choice by many developers out there.
>
> I suggestion is to adopt a mvc aware that can be fit in any other MVC out
> there.
>
>
> The suggestion of Ruby Gems model I totally disagree, because as in Ruby
> Gems doesn't have access to core functionality of Framework . Which this
> replicates on our current Flash Player and AIR run-time architectures that
> leads by SWC.
>
> More flexible, more adopted, that's why I like the way JQuery does, with
> Plug-in architecture, which is more flexible and can be apply drawbacks on
> future releases of SDK.
>
>
> Regards
> Igor Costa
>
>
> 2012/3/1 João Fernandes <jo...@gmail.com>
>
> > On 1 March 2012 17:13, andrei apostolache <apostolache.andrei@gmail.com
> > >wrote:
> >
> > > And I don't see why I will need a MVC framework directly implemented
> in
> > > Flex SDK,
> > >
> >
> > That's not I said, it's an extension so the core would never have
> > dependencies on extensions, otherwise they aren't extensions anymore.
> >
> >
> > > Each project should have it's own purpose, because anyone who uses Flex
> > may
> > > not necessarily use FlexUnit, or BlazeDS.
> > > We already have Apache Flex (as core) and extensions (each project with
> > his
> > > own purpose).
> > >
> > > That's why it's called extensions, they would have different releases
> > from
> > the core.
> > Why under Flex Apache project? Because often those projects could be
> > enhanced by the community and usually many of those are under a
> repository
> > but the community can't commit to it. Of course you can fork it but you
> > loose the visibility of those enhancements. How many OS projects where
> > forked and those enhancements where lost in the wild?
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > João Fernandes
> >
>
> --
> Charles A. Monteiro
> www.monteirosfusion.com
> sent from the road
>
>
Re: [OT] Thoughts on a Apache Flex MVC Framework
Posted by Daniel Harfleet <dh...@yahoo.com>.
Hi Charles,
As a newbie I appreciate you may not have full overview of all things Flex; MVC is definitely a concept that most developers are widely accustomed to within the Flex development world, in fact it is hotly debated.
At a micro-level, you could say that the SDK is in some way implementing MVC, for example, a DropDownList, its skin and its data provider.
There are a number of macro level MVC/MVP "architectural" frameworks around (some of which also include other features such as dependency injection, command patterns, messaging, etc). Some of these frameworks are quite prescriptive/intrusive, whilst others are not.
Examples of 'architectural' frameworks in Flex:
Cairngorm 2
PureMVC
Mate
Parsley
SpringAS
Swiz
Cairngorm 3
Robot Legs
others I'm sure
for the record as far as the core SDK goes, I would prefer to see it kept relatively light-weight and focus on ensuring no regression and improve ability to unit-test. I am not against additional frameworks, ui component sets, etc (I use Parsley most of the time), but I would prefer to go elsewhere to get them. Besides, I don't think the mailing list servers could handle the architectural framework war ;-)
hth
dan
________________________________
From: Charles Monteiro <ch...@monteirosfusion.com>
To: flex-dev@incubator.apache.org
Sent: Friday, 2 March 2012, 14:38
Subject: Re: [OT] Thoughts on a Apache Flex MVC Framework
There's a difference between a plugin to a framework and "goodies" / "gem"
like repository. The difference is that a "goodies" repository depends on
the its "universe" typically that being a language and if done well its
declared dependencies to other entities. A plugin is a direct extension to
a framework. My question was whether there was a "goodies" repository in
general and again pardon the newbiness, I did not mean exclusively to the
Flex framework,
Rafael, I don't think you have to work too hard on the branding and if you
want to get feedback sooner than later I think that GitHub is an excellent
place to store the code plus you can put up some basic docs or readme
instructions quickly and it will all look very nice and tiddy. For now, a
nicely searchable wiki with categories and tags for the various "goodies"
would be an excellent start.
MVC is a natural intuitive separation of concerns so not overly complicated
to I guess those that are accustomed to it. In my case , as a Smalltalker I
have been working with only MVC UI frameworks since 94 so I welcome them
and personally would rather see your stuff sooner than later :)
-Charles
On Thu, Mar 1, 2012 at 12:36 PM, Igor Costa <ig...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I always believe that an MVC approach into Flex SDK will succumb the
> freedom of choice by many developers out there.
>
> I suggestion is to adopt a mvc aware that can be fit in any other MVC out
> there.
>
>
> The suggestion of Ruby Gems model I totally disagree, because as in Ruby
> Gems doesn't have access to core functionality of Framework . Which this
> replicates on our current Flash Player and AIR run-time architectures that
> leads by SWC.
>
> More flexible, more adopted, that's why I like the way JQuery does, with
> Plug-in architecture, which is more flexible and can be apply drawbacks on
> future releases of SDK.
>
>
> Regards
> Igor Costa
>
>
> 2012/3/1 João Fernandes <jo...@gmail.com>
>
> > On 1 March 2012 17:13, andrei apostolache <apostolache.andrei@gmail.com
> > >wrote:
> >
> > > And I don't see why I will need a MVC framework directly implemented
> in
> > > Flex SDK,
> > >
> >
> > That's not I said, it's an extension so the core would never have
> > dependencies on extensions, otherwise they aren't extensions anymore.
> >
> >
> > > Each project should have it's own purpose, because anyone who uses Flex
> > may
> > > not necessarily use FlexUnit, or BlazeDS.
> > > We already have Apache Flex (as core) and extensions (each project with
> > his
> > > own purpose).
> > >
> > > That's why it's called extensions, they would have different releases
> > from
> > the core.
> > Why under Flex Apache project? Because often those projects could be
> > enhanced by the community and usually many of those are under a
> repository
> > but the community can't commit to it. Of course you can fork it but you
> > loose the visibility of those enhancements. How many OS projects where
> > forked and those enhancements where lost in the wild?
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > João Fernandes
> >
>
--
Charles A. Monteiro
www.monteirosfusion.com
sent from the road
Re: [OT] Thoughts on a Apache Flex MVC Framework
Posted by Charles Monteiro <ch...@monteirosfusion.com>.
There's a difference between a plugin to a framework and "goodies" / "gem"
like repository. The difference is that a "goodies" repository depends on
the its "universe" typically that being a language and if done well its
declared dependencies to other entities. A plugin is a direct extension to
a framework. My question was whether there was a "goodies" repository in
general and again pardon the newbiness, I did not mean exclusively to the
Flex framework,
Rafael, I don't think you have to work too hard on the branding and if you
want to get feedback sooner than later I think that GitHub is an excellent
place to store the code plus you can put up some basic docs or readme
instructions quickly and it will all look very nice and tiddy. For now, a
nicely searchable wiki with categories and tags for the various "goodies"
would be an excellent start.
MVC is a natural intuitive separation of concerns so not overly complicated
to I guess those that are accustomed to it. In my case , as a Smalltalker I
have been working with only MVC UI frameworks since 94 so I welcome them
and personally would rather see your stuff sooner than later :)
-Charles
On Thu, Mar 1, 2012 at 12:36 PM, Igor Costa <ig...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I always believe that an MVC approach into Flex SDK will succumb the
> freedom of choice by many developers out there.
>
> I suggestion is to adopt a mvc aware that can be fit in any other MVC out
> there.
>
>
> The suggestion of Ruby Gems model I totally disagree, because as in Ruby
> Gems doesn't have access to core functionality of Framework . Which this
> replicates on our current Flash Player and AIR run-time architectures that
> leads by SWC.
>
> More flexible, more adopted, that's why I like the way JQuery does, with
> Plug-in architecture, which is more flexible and can be apply drawbacks on
> future releases of SDK.
>
>
> Regards
> Igor Costa
>
>
> 2012/3/1 João Fernandes <jo...@gmail.com>
>
> > On 1 March 2012 17:13, andrei apostolache <apostolache.andrei@gmail.com
> > >wrote:
> >
> > > And I don't see why I will need a MVC framework directly implemented
> in
> > > Flex SDK,
> > >
> >
> > That's not I said, it's an extension so the core would never have
> > dependencies on extensions, otherwise they aren't extensions anymore.
> >
> >
> > > Each project should have it's own purpose, because anyone who uses Flex
> > may
> > > not necessarily use FlexUnit, or BlazeDS.
> > > We already have Apache Flex (as core) and extensions (each project with
> > his
> > > own purpose).
> > >
> > > That's why it's called extensions, they would have different releases
> > from
> > the core.
> > Why under Flex Apache project? Because often those projects could be
> > enhanced by the community and usually many of those are under a
> repository
> > but the community can't commit to it. Of course you can fork it but you
> > loose the visibility of those enhancements. How many OS projects where
> > forked and those enhancements where lost in the wild?
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > João Fernandes
> >
>
--
Charles A. Monteiro
www.monteirosfusion.com
sent from the road
Re: [OT] Thoughts on a Apache Flex MVC Framework
Posted by Igor Costa <ig...@gmail.com>.
I always believe that an MVC approach into Flex SDK will succumb the
freedom of choice by many developers out there.
I suggestion is to adopt a mvc aware that can be fit in any other MVC out
there.
The suggestion of Ruby Gems model I totally disagree, because as in Ruby
Gems doesn't have access to core functionality of Framework . Which this
replicates on our current Flash Player and AIR run-time architectures that
leads by SWC.
More flexible, more adopted, that's why I like the way JQuery does, with
Plug-in architecture, which is more flexible and can be apply drawbacks on
future releases of SDK.
Regards
Igor Costa
2012/3/1 João Fernandes <jo...@gmail.com>
> On 1 March 2012 17:13, andrei apostolache <apostolache.andrei@gmail.com
> >wrote:
>
> > And I don't see why I will need a MVC framework directly implemented in
> > Flex SDK,
> >
>
> That's not I said, it's an extension so the core would never have
> dependencies on extensions, otherwise they aren't extensions anymore.
>
>
> > Each project should have it's own purpose, because anyone who uses Flex
> may
> > not necessarily use FlexUnit, or BlazeDS.
> > We already have Apache Flex (as core) and extensions (each project with
> his
> > own purpose).
> >
> > That's why it's called extensions, they would have different releases
> from
> the core.
> Why under Flex Apache project? Because often those projects could be
> enhanced by the community and usually many of those are under a repository
> but the community can't commit to it. Of course you can fork it but you
> loose the visibility of those enhancements. How many OS projects where
> forked and those enhancements where lost in the wild?
>
>
> --
>
> João Fernandes
>
Re: [OT] Thoughts on a Apache Flex MVC Framework
Posted by andrei apostolache <ap...@gmail.com>.
If you take a look on almost all MVC frameworks (pureMVC, robotlegs) are
not only for Flex. These frameworks can also be used for AS3 and
implemented in Flash, which is not related at all with Apache Flex.
And I agree with Igor, the decision of what MVC framework to use depends on
the developers involved and the project needs.
On Thu, Mar 1, 2012 at 5:22 PM, João Fernandes <
joaopedromartinsfernandes@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 1 March 2012 17:13, andrei apostolache <apostolache.andrei@gmail.com
> >wrote:
>
> > And I don't see why I will need a MVC framework directly implemented in
> > Flex SDK,
> >
>
> That's not I said, it's an extension so the core would never have
> dependencies on extensions, otherwise they aren't extensions anymore.
>
>
> > Each project should have it's own purpose, because anyone who uses Flex
> may
> > not necessarily use FlexUnit, or BlazeDS.
> > We already have Apache Flex (as core) and extensions (each project with
> his
> > own purpose).
> >
> > That's why it's called extensions, they would have different releases
> from
> the core.
> Why under Flex Apache project? Because often those projects could be
> enhanced by the community and usually many of those are under a repository
> but the community can't commit to it. Of course you can fork it but you
> loose the visibility of those enhancements. How many OS projects where
> forked and those enhancements where lost in the wild?
>
>
> --
>
> João Fernandes
>
Re: [OT] Thoughts on a Apache Flex MVC Framework
Posted by João Fernandes <jo...@gmail.com>.
On 1 March 2012 17:13, andrei apostolache <ap...@gmail.com>wrote:
> And I don't see why I will need a MVC framework directly implemented in
> Flex SDK,
>
That's not I said, it's an extension so the core would never have
dependencies on extensions, otherwise they aren't extensions anymore.
> Each project should have it's own purpose, because anyone who uses Flex may
> not necessarily use FlexUnit, or BlazeDS.
> We already have Apache Flex (as core) and extensions (each project with his
> own purpose).
>
> That's why it's called extensions, they would have different releases from
the core.
Why under Flex Apache project? Because often those projects could be
enhanced by the community and usually many of those are under a repository
but the community can't commit to it. Of course you can fork it but you
loose the visibility of those enhancements. How many OS projects where
forked and those enhancements where lost in the wild?
--
João Fernandes
Re: [OT] Thoughts on a Apache Flex MVC Framework
Posted by andrei apostolache <ap...@gmail.com>.
My opinion is that Apache Flex should be only what Flex was in Adobe's era.
A simple SDK that contains only the necessary code to create an RIA.
FlexUnit, FlexCover are already projects set on google code. BlazeDS will
be somewhere in the future donated by Adobe as different project. And I
don't see why I will need a MVC framework directly implemented in Flex SDK,
when sometime for a simple application you may not need the advantages that
a framework may offer.
Each project should have it's own purpose, because anyone who uses Flex may
not necessarily use FlexUnit, or BlazeDS.
We already have Apache Flex (as core) and extensions (each project with his
own purpose).
On Thu, Mar 1, 2012 at 4:59 PM, João Fernandes <
joaopedromartinsfernandes@gmail.com> wrote:
> I wonder if the Apache Flex couldn't be splitted in core and extensions?
>
> In the core we could have what we have now as the SDK + compiler, what is
> required to get the job done (primary project target) and extensions could
> be small projects that could be associated as enhancements of the project,
> like FlexUnit, FlexCover, BlazeDS, etc, but aren't considered a requirement
> to have a flex app running.
>
> Just my 2 cents.
>
> João Fernandes
>
Re: [OT] Thoughts on a Apache Flex MVC Framework
Posted by Alex Harui <ah...@adobe.com>.
On 3/1/12 9:11 AM, "Jarosław Szczepankiewicz" <js...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> what's the purpose? sharing mailing lists? sharing repository? sharing
> documentation? apart from that why framework Parsley, not Matte or
> something else? How this will affect releasing new edition of flex
> sdk? Will we wait with release of 4.9 sdk for bugfixing in library X?
>
The purpose is to make code available for modification under the Apache way
that wouldn't be available otherwise. It is supposedly possible for the
different code bases to have different/separate release.
--
Alex Harui
Flex SDK Team
Adobe Systems, Inc.
http://blogs.adobe.com/aharui
Re: [OT] Thoughts on a Apache Flex MVC Framework
Posted by Jarosław Szczepankiewicz <js...@gmail.com>.
what's the purpose? sharing mailing lists? sharing repository? sharing
documentation? apart from that why framework Parsley, not Matte or
something else? How this will affect releasing new edition of flex
sdk? Will we wait with release of 4.9 sdk for bugfixing in library X?
2012/3/1 João Fernandes <jo...@gmail.com>:
> I wonder if the Apache Flex couldn't be splitted in core and extensions?
>
> In the core we could have what we have now as the SDK + compiler, what is
> required to get the job done (primary project target) and extensions could
> be small projects that could be associated as enhancements of the project,
> like FlexUnit, FlexCover, BlazeDS, etc, but aren't considered a requirement
> to have a flex app running.
>
> Just my 2 cents.
>
> João Fernandes
Re: [OT] Thoughts on a Apache Flex MVC Framework
Posted by Alex Harui <ah...@adobe.com>.
On 3/1/12 8:59 AM, "João Fernandes" <jo...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> I wonder if the Apache Flex couldn't be splitted in core and extensions?
>
> In the core we could have what we have now as the SDK + compiler, what is
> required to get the job done (primary project target) and extensions could
> be small projects that could be associated as enhancements of the project,
> like FlexUnit, FlexCover, BlazeDS, etc, but aren't considered a requirement
> to have a flex app running.
>
> Just my 2 cents.
>
> João Fernandes
In order to take in code like BlazeDS, we will have to organize SVN such
that we can make release from a clean subset of SVN so we don't have to
include BlazeDS in each release and it can have its own releases. It
depends on the interdependencies between the code bases.
--
Alex Harui
Flex SDK Team
Adobe Systems, Inc.
http://blogs.adobe.com/aharui
Re: [OT] Thoughts on a Apache Flex MVC Framework
Posted by João Fernandes <jo...@gmail.com>.
I wonder if the Apache Flex couldn't be splitted in core and extensions?
In the core we could have what we have now as the SDK + compiler, what is
required to get the job done (primary project target) and extensions could
be small projects that could be associated as enhancements of the project,
like FlexUnit, FlexCover, BlazeDS, etc, but aren't considered a requirement
to have a flex app running.
Just my 2 cents.
João Fernandes
Re: [OT] Thoughts on a Apache Flex MVC Framework
Posted by Rafael Santos <rs...@spectacompany.com.br>.
>
> We could do that for application frameworks that need a home and don't have
> a separate community as well. The real question is who plans to work on
> it.
> I probably wouldn't work on the application frameworks.
>
> And, you can always fork off a technology later if it does get its own
> community.
I think you got the idea....
The framework has a lot of work to be done... This wouldn't be only a
donation, cause we don't intend to reduce our efforts to update the code,
we are just trying to find a home that we could make it available for other
people that are interested.....
Today the framework is heavily used combined with the PHP framework called
CakePHP.... They work perfectly together, but the framework was created to
support other backend technologies as well, but some datasources were never
finished....
We change the framework almost everyday cause we are always trying to make
it simplify our coding and give us a better production speed.
Re: [OT] Thoughts on a Apache Flex MVC Framework
Posted by Rafael Santos <rs...@spectacompany.com.br>.
2012/3/1 Jarosław Szczepankiewicz <js...@gmail.com>
> Let's write a wiki page with categories and links to the projects
> hosted on githud / sourceforge etc.. This will be very usefull for
> everybody looking for libraries / additions to flex.
>
That is a good idea.... I have a bunch of those... I actually got some of
those codes and integrated on our framework... Many projects are very
usefull.... I got the code and integrated in our code base cause I was
worried they might not get updated since I sent code to some of them and my
code was never commited and the projects seemed to have died....
Start the page and I will complete it with my list later....
Re: [OT] Thoughts on a Apache Flex MVC Framework
Posted by Jarosław Szczepankiewicz <js...@gmail.com>.
Let's write a wiki page with categories and links to the projects
hosted on githud / sourceforge etc.. This will be very usefull for
everybody looking for libraries / additions to flex.
2012/3/1 Michael A. Labriola <la...@digitalprimates.net>:
>>Mike, I agree with you that the core framework should stay simple, but maybe we could have some complementary projects don't you think?
>
> Without a doubt. I have developed a few of them. I fully support the idea of having something like a gem repository, I just meant I didn't want to see the main framework grow for all of the additions and especially since many will be contradictory.
>
> Logistically though it might need to exist outside of Apache else each project owner needs to agree with the Apache license and maintain their code here. I bring that up as one of mine uses lgpl code, so it can never really exist here cleanly.
>
> Mike
>
>
RE: [OT] Thoughts on a Apache Flex MVC Framework
Posted by "Michael A. Labriola" <la...@digitalprimates.net>.
>Don't think I care for any type of license really... The idea is to make it open and get some help from those who find that interesting.... I would only have to refactor >the code and make it compliant with the latest version (I would wait for the version 4.8 or 4.9).... I prefer putting it under Apache Flex (as a complementary project) >than trying to make a brand out of it....
I think the risk we run with moving it under Apache Flex is that we will have 10 such frameworks all of which disagree with the other under the main project. MY personal opinion is that it really doesn't belong under Apache Flex directly, it isn't Flex. To me this is sort of a is-a versus a has-a relationship, however, that is just my opinion and certainly not final in any way.
Mike
Re: [OT] Thoughts on a Apache Flex MVC Framework
Posted by Rafael Santos <rs...@spectacompany.com.br>.
On Thu, Mar 1, 2012 at 13:07, Michael A. Labriola <
labriola@digitalprimates.net> wrote:
> >Mike, I agree with you that the core framework should stay simple, but
> maybe we could have some complementary projects don't you think?
>
> Without a doubt. I have developed a few of them. I fully support the idea
> of having something like a gem repository, I just meant I didn't want to
> see the main framework grow for all of the additions and especially since
> many will be contradictory.
>
> Logistically though it might need to exist outside of Apache else each
> project owner needs to agree with the Apache license and maintain their
> code here. I bring that up as one of mine uses lgpl code, so it can never
> really exist here cleanly.
>
Don't think I care for any type of license really... The idea is to make it
open and get some help from those who find that interesting.... I would
only have to refactor the code and make it compliant with the latest
version (I would wait for the version 4.8 or 4.9).... I prefer putting it
under Apache Flex (as a complementary project) than trying to make a brand
out of it....
RE: [OT] Thoughts on a Apache Flex MVC Framework
Posted by "Michael A. Labriola" <la...@digitalprimates.net>.
>Mike, I agree with you that the core framework should stay simple, but maybe we could have some complementary projects don't you think?
Without a doubt. I have developed a few of them. I fully support the idea of having something like a gem repository, I just meant I didn't want to see the main framework grow for all of the additions and especially since many will be contradictory.
Logistically though it might need to exist outside of Apache else each project owner needs to agree with the Apache license and maintain their code here. I bring that up as one of mine uses lgpl code, so it can never really exist here cleanly.
Mike
Re: [OT] Thoughts on a Apache Flex MVC Framework
Posted by Alex Harui <ah...@adobe.com>.
On 3/1/12 8:00 AM, "Rafael Santos" <rs...@spectacompany.com.br> wrote:
>
> Mike, I agree with you that the core framework should stay simple, but
> maybe we could have some complementary projects don't you think?
What I think I've learned so far, is that Apache is about community as well
as technology. If there is a noticeable different set of folks who want to
work on something, it should be its own project.
The interesting thing about this is that it seems to make it hard to donate
stuff that is mature or stable since there won't be a lot of development
action on it.
I can't rule on whether BlazeDS is mature or stable, but we haven't found a
lot of people who want to do lots of work on it, so instead of creating a
top-level project for it, we will stick it into the Flex project somehow.
I'm still thinking we'll contribute Falcon under Flex, but it isn't totally
clear. There seems to be high overlap between the Falcon and Flex folks and
for a little while there might be release dependencies between the code
bases.
We could do that for application frameworks that need a home and don't have
a separate community as well. The real question is who plans to work on it.
I probably wouldn't work on the application frameworks.
And, you can always fork off a technology later if it does get its own
community.
--
Alex Harui
Flex SDK Team
Adobe Systems, Inc.
http://blogs.adobe.com/aharui
Re: [OT] Thoughts on a Apache Flex MVC Framework
Posted by Rafael Santos <rs...@spectacompany.com.br>.
On Thu, Mar 1, 2012 at 12:45, Michael A. Labriola <
labriola@digitalprimates.net> wrote:
>
> >Should be another project. Such as Ruby is it's own language and then you
> have Ruby on Rails.
>
> My personal opinion is that the Flex framework should stay tight and in
> the realm of a component framework. I actually wish some things were
> removed. However, if we ever find a reason that a project like this cannot
> exist external to the framework, some dependency or other such issue, then
> we should treat that as a bug. In other words, make sure the framework can
> be extensible and make sure other such projects can always exist externally
> but keep the framework itself as small as possible.
>
Mike, I agree with you that the core framework should stay simple, but
maybe we could have some complementary projects don't you think?
RE: [OT] Thoughts on a Apache Flex MVC Framework
Posted by "Michael A. Labriola" <la...@digitalprimates.net>.
>yes, exactly, Do we have a "gem" repository for Flex/AS3 ? Or will there be one for Apache Flex ? sorry for my newbiness and if slightly on a tangent.
>I just wonder where community members can put their "goodies" that are add-on external components to the main core Apache Flex project.
No apologies. It's a great question. We don't have one now. There are projects scattered throughout the world.
Re: [OT] Thoughts on a Apache Flex MVC Framework
Posted by Jonathan Campos <jo...@gmail.com>.
On Thu, Mar 1, 2012 at 9:55 AM, Charles Monteiro
<ch...@nycsmalltalk.org>wrote:
> yes, exactly, Do we have a "gem" repository for Flex/AS3 ? Or will there be
> one for Apache Flex ? sorry for my newbiness and if slightly on a tangent.
> I just wonder where community members can put their "goodies" that are
> add-on external components to the main core Apache Flex project.
>
Gotcha, sorry for the misunderstanding. There isn't any sort of "gem
library" for Flex. That is something that we could put together. The
closest thing, and still far off, is Tour De Flex. A place that many people
have shared code.
Other than that things are all over: people's blogs, github, google code.
That could use some gelling.
--
Jonathan Campos
Re: [OT] Thoughts on a Apache Flex MVC Framework
Posted by Charles Monteiro <ch...@nycsmalltalk.org>.
yes, exactly, Do we have a "gem" repository for Flex/AS3 ? Or will there be
one for Apache Flex ? sorry for my newbiness and if slightly on a tangent.
I just wonder where community members can put their "goodies" that are
add-on external components to the main core Apache Flex project.
On Thu, Mar 1, 2012 at 10:45 AM, Michael A. Labriola <
labriola@digitalprimates.net> wrote:
>
> >Should be another project. Such as Ruby is it's own language and then you
> have Ruby on Rails.
>
> My personal opinion is that the Flex framework should stay tight and in
> the realm of a component framework. I actually wish some things were
> removed. However, if we ever find a reason that a project like this cannot
> exist external to the framework, some dependency or other such issue, then
> we should treat that as a bug. In other words, make sure the framework can
> be extensible and make sure other such projects can always exist externally
> but keep the framework itself as small as possible.
>
> Mike
>
> --
> Charles A. Monteiro
> www.monteirosfusion.com
> sent from the road
>
>
RE: [OT] Thoughts on a Apache Flex MVC Framework
Posted by "Michael A. Labriola" <la...@digitalprimates.net>.
>Should be another project. Such as Ruby is it's own language and then you have Ruby on Rails.
My personal opinion is that the Flex framework should stay tight and in the realm of a component framework. I actually wish some things were removed. However, if we ever find a reason that a project like this cannot exist external to the framework, some dependency or other such issue, then we should treat that as a bug. In other words, make sure the framework can be extensible and make sure other such projects can always exist externally but keep the framework itself as small as possible.
Mike
Re: [OT] Thoughts on a Apache Flex MVC Framework
Posted by Jonathan Campos <jo...@gmail.com>.
On Thu, Mar 1, 2012 at 9:36 AM, Charles Monteiro <
charles@monteirosfusion.com> wrote:
> right but it would be an important Flex community add-on i.e. in Ruby
> parlance , a great "gem" to have
>
Should be another project. Such as Ruby is it's own language and then you
have Ruby on Rails.
--
Jonathan Campos
Re: [OT] Thoughts on a Apache Flex MVC Framework
Posted by Charles Monteiro <ch...@monteirosfusion.com>.
right but it would be an important Flex community add-on i.e. in Ruby
parlance , a great "gem" to have
2012/3/1 Jarosław Szczepankiewicz <js...@gmail.com>
> I agree that this is not the right project for including architectural
> frameworks (mvc / ioc / aspects). But If the components are spark
> based and follows spark rules they can be evaluated for inclusion into
> flex sdk.
>
> 2012/3/1 Charles Monteiro <ch...@nycsmalltalk.org>:
> > I agree, a functional MVC framework would be very important to have
> > available.
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 1, 2012 at 9:34 AM, Haykel BEN JEMIA <ha...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >> I don't think it should be included in the SDK as every developer has
> his
> >> own preferences but it could be very interesting to the community
> anyway.
> >>
> >> Haykel
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 1 March 2012 13:46, Rafael Santos <rs...@spectacompany.com.br>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> > I would like to hear from everyone about this....
> >> >
> >> > I have being developing a MVC Framework for Flex for the last 3-4
> years
> >> > now. The framework is based on Fake Framework that is on Google Code.
> >> >
> >> > Since last year we wanted to make it opensource, but I did not have
> the
> >> > quality time to setup a page, examples, videos, documentation and
> stuff
> >> > like that.
> >> >
> >> > The framework was written for Flex 3.5 but can be easily migrated to
> 4.x
> >> > since most of it is AS.
> >> >
> >> > Some Features:
> >> >
> >> > - MVC oriented architecture
> >> > - Interface oriented architecture
> >> > - Multiple datasurces
> >> > - Scaffolding Controller
> >> > - Scaffolding Form => This is a relly advanced form builder
> >> > - Around 30 Form components
> >> > - Filter support with around 10 filter components
> >> > - and so on....
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Would the community be interested in that?
> >> >
> >> > I could commit everything I have so far to a whiteboard and place a
> video
> >> > sample of me building a Contact List to give an idea on how it works.
> I
> >> > also have some unit testing classes that I need to migrate to the
> latest
> >> > version as well....
> >> >
> >> > I dont know if Adobe have donated Cairngorm as well, but this
> framework
> >> is
> >> > much simplier, but scalable. We use it to build around 12 applications
> >> that
> >> > have around 300 database tables and work together in a Application
> Server
> >> > we also developed.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Rafael Santos - Specta
> >> > @rafaelspecta
> >> >
> >>
> >> --
> >> Charles A. Monteiro
> >> www.monteirosfusion.com
> >> sent from the road
> >>
> >>
>
--
Charles A. Monteiro
www.monteirosfusion.com
sent from the road
Re: [OT] Thoughts on a Apache Flex MVC Framework
Posted by Jarosław Szczepankiewicz <js...@gmail.com>.
I agree that this is not the right project for including architectural
frameworks (mvc / ioc / aspects). But If the components are spark
based and follows spark rules they can be evaluated for inclusion into
flex sdk.
2012/3/1 Charles Monteiro <ch...@nycsmalltalk.org>:
> I agree, a functional MVC framework would be very important to have
> available.
>
> On Thu, Mar 1, 2012 at 9:34 AM, Haykel BEN JEMIA <ha...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I don't think it should be included in the SDK as every developer has his
>> own preferences but it could be very interesting to the community anyway.
>>
>> Haykel
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 1 March 2012 13:46, Rafael Santos <rs...@spectacompany.com.br> wrote:
>>
>> > I would like to hear from everyone about this....
>> >
>> > I have being developing a MVC Framework for Flex for the last 3-4 years
>> > now. The framework is based on Fake Framework that is on Google Code.
>> >
>> > Since last year we wanted to make it opensource, but I did not have the
>> > quality time to setup a page, examples, videos, documentation and stuff
>> > like that.
>> >
>> > The framework was written for Flex 3.5 but can be easily migrated to 4.x
>> > since most of it is AS.
>> >
>> > Some Features:
>> >
>> > - MVC oriented architecture
>> > - Interface oriented architecture
>> > - Multiple datasurces
>> > - Scaffolding Controller
>> > - Scaffolding Form => This is a relly advanced form builder
>> > - Around 30 Form components
>> > - Filter support with around 10 filter components
>> > - and so on....
>> >
>> >
>> > Would the community be interested in that?
>> >
>> > I could commit everything I have so far to a whiteboard and place a video
>> > sample of me building a Contact List to give an idea on how it works. I
>> > also have some unit testing classes that I need to migrate to the latest
>> > version as well....
>> >
>> > I dont know if Adobe have donated Cairngorm as well, but this framework
>> is
>> > much simplier, but scalable. We use it to build around 12 applications
>> that
>> > have around 300 database tables and work together in a Application Server
>> > we also developed.
>> >
>> >
>> > Rafael Santos - Specta
>> > @rafaelspecta
>> >
>>
>> --
>> Charles A. Monteiro
>> www.monteirosfusion.com
>> sent from the road
>>
>>
Re: [OT] Thoughts on a Apache Flex MVC Framework
Posted by Charles Monteiro <ch...@nycsmalltalk.org>.
I agree, a functional MVC framework would be very important to have
available.
On Thu, Mar 1, 2012 at 9:34 AM, Haykel BEN JEMIA <ha...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I don't think it should be included in the SDK as every developer has his
> own preferences but it could be very interesting to the community anyway.
>
> Haykel
>
>
>
>
> On 1 March 2012 13:46, Rafael Santos <rs...@spectacompany.com.br> wrote:
>
> > I would like to hear from everyone about this....
> >
> > I have being developing a MVC Framework for Flex for the last 3-4 years
> > now. The framework is based on Fake Framework that is on Google Code.
> >
> > Since last year we wanted to make it opensource, but I did not have the
> > quality time to setup a page, examples, videos, documentation and stuff
> > like that.
> >
> > The framework was written for Flex 3.5 but can be easily migrated to 4.x
> > since most of it is AS.
> >
> > Some Features:
> >
> > - MVC oriented architecture
> > - Interface oriented architecture
> > - Multiple datasurces
> > - Scaffolding Controller
> > - Scaffolding Form => This is a relly advanced form builder
> > - Around 30 Form components
> > - Filter support with around 10 filter components
> > - and so on....
> >
> >
> > Would the community be interested in that?
> >
> > I could commit everything I have so far to a whiteboard and place a video
> > sample of me building a Contact List to give an idea on how it works. I
> > also have some unit testing classes that I need to migrate to the latest
> > version as well....
> >
> > I dont know if Adobe have donated Cairngorm as well, but this framework
> is
> > much simplier, but scalable. We use it to build around 12 applications
> that
> > have around 300 database tables and work together in a Application Server
> > we also developed.
> >
> >
> > Rafael Santos - Specta
> > @rafaelspecta
> >
>
> --
> Charles A. Monteiro
> www.monteirosfusion.com
> sent from the road
>
>
Re: [OT] Thoughts on a Apache Flex MVC Framework
Posted by Haykel BEN JEMIA <ha...@gmail.com>.
I don't think it should be included in the SDK as every developer has his
own preferences but it could be very interesting to the community anyway.
Haykel
On 1 March 2012 13:46, Rafael Santos <rs...@spectacompany.com.br> wrote:
> I would like to hear from everyone about this....
>
> I have being developing a MVC Framework for Flex for the last 3-4 years
> now. The framework is based on Fake Framework that is on Google Code.
>
> Since last year we wanted to make it opensource, but I did not have the
> quality time to setup a page, examples, videos, documentation and stuff
> like that.
>
> The framework was written for Flex 3.5 but can be easily migrated to 4.x
> since most of it is AS.
>
> Some Features:
>
> - MVC oriented architecture
> - Interface oriented architecture
> - Multiple datasurces
> - Scaffolding Controller
> - Scaffolding Form => This is a relly advanced form builder
> - Around 30 Form components
> - Filter support with around 10 filter components
> - and so on....
>
>
> Would the community be interested in that?
>
> I could commit everything I have so far to a whiteboard and place a video
> sample of me building a Contact List to give an idea on how it works. I
> also have some unit testing classes that I need to migrate to the latest
> version as well....
>
> I dont know if Adobe have donated Cairngorm as well, but this framework is
> much simplier, but scalable. We use it to build around 12 applications that
> have around 300 database tables and work together in a Application Server
> we also developed.
>
>
> Rafael Santos - Specta
> @rafaelspecta
>
Re: [OT] Thoughts on a Apache Flex MVC Framework
Posted by Tomasz Maciąg | Fuse Collective <t....@fusecollective.com>.
W dniu 2012-03-02 09:32, James Ong pisze:
> True, I would find MVC is overly complicated to learn as a beginner
> when MVVM like KnockOut JS or WPF is more easier to manage and easy to
> understand.
>
> I'm not sure if anyone should develop a framework using MVVM pattern?
>
I think that some of already existing AS3 (or Flex) frameworks could
work in MVVM fashion like KnockOut.
Re: [OT] Thoughts on a Apache Flex MVC Framework
Posted by Tomasz Maciąg | Fuse Collective <t....@fusecollective.com>.
> For know we will stick to the early idea of creating a brand to it, but
> that will take some more time since we need to build some minimal stuff
> around it... just putting the code opensource without a minimal
> documentation, samples and instruction will lead nowhere.
I also think it's not the right place for application framework.
IMO if it would end up here it'd require the same amount of time to get
some interest from people compared to it being in other places (like
google code or github). With the amount of work everyone is having I
don't think people would spend much time investigating a large code base
without docs and examples.
Re: [OT] Thoughts on a Apache Flex MVC Framework
Posted by Rafael Santos <rs...@spectacompany.com.br>.
On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 10:52, Piotr Kawiak <pi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On a side note: why did you choose to implement your own MVC
> framework while there is at least several of them on the web free of
> charge, tested, and documented?
>
We have started it 3-4 years ago. There was just a few, the ones that
existed had almost no community behind it and Cairngorm that was the major
one was too heavy and needed lots of steps that made coding last longer
(some feeling you have about MVC).
I was talking to gwoo at the time (Gwoo is one of the heads behind CakePHP
and now Lithium) and he told me he was working on a Framework called
"Fake". It had some prototyping for scaffolding that was very interesting.
We decided to embrace that and before we knew it became Specta Framework
cause we were the only ones working on it.
That is the story.
Rafael Santos - Specta
@rafaelspecta
Re: [OT] Thoughts on a Apache Flex MVC Framework
Posted by Piotr Kawiak <pi...@gmail.com>.
> Overly complicated? Come on.... More simple and organized in a way that
> everyone comprehends ?
I don't know your framework but I have experience with several
intrusive frameworks that brutally impose MVC (PureMVC, Aconcagua) and
I really find them too restrictive. I don't like boilerplate code,
extending controllers, commands, models blah... blah... (in 9 cases of
10 I don't really need their functionality). I know that it gives
certain sense of 'organization' but you can also achieve this in other
ways using simpler, less intrusive, means ...
On a side note: why did you choose to implement your own MVC
framework while there is at least several of them on the web free of
charge, tested, and documented?
Re: [OT] Thoughts on a Apache Flex MVC Framework
Posted by Rafael Santos <rs...@spectacompany.com.br>.
On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 05:32, James Ong <ya...@gmail.com> wrote:
> True, I would find MVC is overly complicated to learn as a beginner
> when MVVM like KnockOut JS or WPF is more easier to manage and easy to
> understand.
>
> I'm not sure if anyone should develop a framework using MVVM pattern?
>
Overly complicated? Come on.... More simple and organized in a way that
everyone comprehends ?
Anyway... I see that many people are against even having it as extension...
I am willing to donate anytime now or in the future... I am also willing to
commit for others to have a closer look at least....
For know we will stick to the early idea of creating a brand to it, but
that will take some more time since we need to build some minimal stuff
around it... just putting the code opensource without a minimal
documentation, samples and instruction will lead nowhere.
If any update I will post here....
But I still think an extension on svn might do some good... At least we
would have more control under some codes that today are in google code and
we have to keep asking for each project for access to commit and when they
get abandoned, forget it cause no one will hear you when you need.
Re: [OT] Thoughts on a Apache Flex MVC Framework
Posted by James Ong <ya...@gmail.com>.
True, I would find MVC is overly complicated to learn as a beginner
when MVVM like KnockOut JS or WPF is more easier to manage and easy to
understand.
I'm not sure if anyone should develop a framework using MVVM pattern?
Re: [OT] Thoughts on a Apache Flex MVC Framework
Posted by Piotr Kawiak <pi...@gmail.com>.
Ouch. Flex is already a bit bloated. Why would we need to have it
connected with some MVC framework in ANY way? I had no issues with
'integrating' Flex with PureMVC or Aconcagua (oohh I HATE that
name!!!) and one custom built framework! Moreover, developing more and
more with Flex I came to a conclusion that all those intrusive MVC
frameworks are real PITA. Currently I am totally* happy with simple DI
and a variation of Presentation Model. Anyway. IMHO all MVC frameworks
definitely should have their own place in the world. Have you
considered hosting the code on googlecode or bitbucket?
Re: [OT] Thoughts on a Apache Flex MVC Framework
Posted by Rafael Santos <rs...@spectacompany.com.br>.
Great... good discussion....
I don't think a mvc framework should go in the core framework of flex... It
doesn't make sense.... I agree on that 100%
The idea of extensions sound great to me, but I don't have a lot of
experience with this idea on an opensource project to suggest a model that
would work....
The only experience I have is with Dokuwiki and a little from Eclipse. What
I got from Dokuwiki is that if the core team is not somehow compromised
with the extensions, they simply die with time and they start not being
available for future releases of the core.... So with time people just stop
using extensions because they know that with time they will break....
So sometimes it is simply no worth to have them if anyone will commit to
it... I mean... If there is no roadmap where the extensions have some or
any importance....
Eclipse is a project that embraces the extensions for example... That model
seems to work.... The extensions have value for the overall goals of the
project...
Rafael Santos - Specta
@rafaelspecta