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Posted to general@incubator.apache.org by Roman Shaposhnik <rv...@apache.org> on 2014/07/01 05:46:34 UTC
Re: [DISCUSS] Incubator exit criteria
Hi!
Sorry for a belated reply -- at first I was following Doug's rule
and then I got distracted ;-)
That said -- I really would like to drive us to some kind
consensus (even if we have to do the vote) because
the current situation is simply sad (top 8 project):
https://whimsy.apache.org/incubator/podlings/by-age
> Let's assume the Wave project would have more activity. Maybe lets say
> they are operating with around 20 commits a month. It would be still
> difficult to release the code base within one year, because its really
> complex and needs a full refactoring. If we do not weight activity in general in, we
> reduce the exit criteria to: how fast can you do a release?
Are you proposing a hypothetical where for all that activity there's
no a single line of code produced? I hope not. Because this
is the only point where I feel super strongly about -- if a project
doesn't produce a single line of code in a year -- we need to
take action.
If not, I must ask -- how can you imagine code activity to continue for
a year and not have a single artifact that is 'usable'? I've been
in this industry for 20+ years and I've never seen that.
So lets assume that there's an artifact that is at least useful
to developers. Why not release it under the alpha label? What
am I missing here?
>> At the ends of the day, the release of an incubating project
>> is NOT a glorious exercise in putting the final coat of paint
>> on a flawless product. It is rather a very mundane way sharing
>> technology with its users community. And after all, growing the
>> user community is as important as growing the contributing
>> community. It is only fair that IPMC gently reminds PPMC of that.
>
>
> I agree, but sometimes it's simply not possible to release.
> Actually, Wave *could* have released something, but nobody wants
> it to look like that.
Like what? Lets answer a simple question -- is there an artifact
of Wave that I, as an advanced user, can play with today? The
answer to that is yes (I just spent time and checked). Is it
perfect? No. Is it releasable as 'alpha' -- absolutely yes!
> Let's assume they would release it now, which would be possible in theory.
> Let's say they would get 3 +1 from the PMC, which will be hard already.
> Then you have a released project, but the community is almost inactive.
That is a fine -- a release proves community's ability to do
releases. That's one of the items on the graduation checklist.
> As to my knowledge, some Hadoop-devs get financial support from companies.
> Projects like Ripple, Wave or Log4cxx do not have that financial support.
> In most cases, people work on these codebases in their prime time.
> For that reason I don't want to compare company-backed projects with
> prime-time projects.
What's wrong with doing it on GitHub? There's plenty of super successfull
projects driven 100% by volunteers that are available on GitHub? What's
wrong with that?
> People might struggle with a release but be healthy otherwise.
> People might get a release done, but have no community otherwise.
>
> That said, reminding people of the "release often and early" thing is good
> to do,
> but also have in mind that incubator releases are very difficult to make.
And if could solve both of these during my tenure as an incubator chair,
I'd quit right there -- you can't top it ;-)
But seriously, I do agree that we don't make it simple. That said, part
of the exit criteria function would be to force IPMC to think about this
problem more often. Imagine how silly it would be to suggest that
project need to exit the incubator only to find out that the reason
it hasn't had a release was because IPMC screwed it up? I think
we really need these types of forcing functions around here.
Thanks,
Roman.
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Re: [DISCUSS] Incubator exit criteria
Posted by Konstantin Boudnik <co...@apache.org>.
It makes sense. And it also seems to be a decent compilation of the points
agreed in the earlier and lengthy discussion on the topic.
Cos
On Sun, Aug 10, 2014 at 05:22PM, Roman Shaposhnik wrote:
> Seems like attachments are eaten away by general@
> Including the patch bellow
>
> Index: content/guides/retirement.xml
> ===================================================================
> --- content/guides/retirement.xml (revision 1617182)
> +++ content/guides/retirement.xml (working copy)
> @@ -64,6 +64,7 @@
> <li>If the PPMC unanimously recommends retirement, it gets retired.
> No need for a VOTE, just notify the IPMC, leave for 72 hours minimum
> and retire it.</li>
> <li>If the mentors say it should be retired but the PPMC does not
> unanimously agree then the podling should seek to recruit new mentors.
> No need to VOTE, just get on with it.</li>
> <li>If there insufficient mentors willing to continue working with
> the project then the IPMC has a problem to address on a case by case
> basis. The shepherd role ensures that these cases are spotted during
> the reporting process. If necessary a [DISCUSS] thread can be started
> and a sensible plan is developed (which may include a VOTE to retire,
> at this point there should be no -1's as a -1 needs to be backed by a
> willingness to act and thus this should have been surfaced in case 2)
> above.</li>
> + <li>If the project has not had a release for more than a year this
> fact will get flagged by the Incubator report and the PPMC will be
> expected to get notified (either by one of the mentors or an IPMC
> member). The initial discussion with the community is expected to
> uncover and start addressing the underlying issues preventing the
> project from producing releases. At this point the project is expected
> to be put on a monthly reporting schedule and the next month's report
> is expected to articulate the steps and expected time frame to get to
> the release. In case of a clear lack of progress for straight three
> months the [VOTE] thread on potential retirement is expected to be
> started in IPMC.</li>
> </ol>
> <p>
> Note, this is exactly what happens with board oversight of TLPs,
> Index: content/incubation/Process_Description.xml
> ===================================================================
> --- content/incubation/Process_Description.xml (revision 1617182)
> +++ content/incubation/Process_Description.xml (working copy)
> @@ -34,7 +34,7 @@
> <li><a href="#Establishment">Establishment</a></li>
> <li><a href="#Acceptance">Acceptance</a></li>
> <li><a href="#Review">Review</a></li>
> - <li><a href="#Termination">Termination</a></li>
> + <li><a href="#TerminationRetirement">Termination
> or Retirement</a></li>
> <li><a href="#Continuation">Continuation</a></li>
> <li><a href="#Graduation">Graduation</a></li>
> </ul>
> @@ -206,9 +206,12 @@
> their consideration.
> </p>
> </section>
> - <section id="Termination">
> - <title>Termination</title>
> - <p>If you receive a recommendation for termination then you have a
> + <section id="TerminationRetirement">
> + <title>Termination or Retirement</title>
> + <p>There are two ways for a project to cease incubation: Termination
> +or Retirement.
> +
> +If you receive a recommendation for termination then you have a
> problem. Chances are that there are either legal or structural
> problems with your project that in the opinion of the Incubator PMC
> are not resolvable within a reasonable time frame. A termination
> @@ -217,6 +220,23 @@
> Directors and/or your Sponsor. You should be aware that several
> Members of the Board are also Members of the Incubator PMC and as
> such, an appeal is unlikely to be successful.
> +
> +Retirement is typically an internal decisions by PPMC. A retired project
> +is a project which has been closed down by the PPMC or by the IPMC for
> +various reasons. It is not longer developed at the Apache Incubator and
> +does not have any other duties.
> +
> +Retirement can also be suggested by IPMC on the grounds of lack
> +of releases for more than a year. However, since unlike termination,
> +retirement is a voluntary process, the suggestion will have to be
> +discussed and voted upon.
> +
> +It's important to view this process as being the retirement of the podling
> +community, not the code. It should not be implied that the code is not for
> +use - just that it has no community. The source code of a retired project
> +is available in ASF repository, when the copyright requirements are fullfilled.
> +This is indicated through the incubator status page. For more details on
> +Retirement please see our <strong><a
> href="../guides/retirement.html">Guide to Retirement</a></strong>
> </p>
> </section>
> <section id="Continuation">
>
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Re: [DISCUSS] Incubator exit criteria
Posted by Roman Shaposhnik <rv...@apache.org>.
Hi!
I've committed the first cut and updated the website. I'm also
adding a special section to the incubator report calling
out projects where we would require a readout from the
mentors.
I would really appreciate if others can help with making
the docs crisper, etc.
Thanks,
Roman.
On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 11:46 AM, Christian Grobmeier
<gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 11 Aug 2014, at 10:14, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
>>
>> With this in mind, I would remove almost everything from the "What is
>> retirement" section and keep just
>>
>> ****
>> A retired project is a project which has been closed down for various
>> reasons, instead of graduating as an Apache project. It is no longer
>> developed in the Apache Incubator and does not have any other duties.
>>
>> The project's code might stay available on Apache servers, if all the
>> required IP clearance requirements have been met.
>>
>> Retirement is a decision of the Incubator PMC, which usually delegates
>> it to the incubating project's mentors. The opinion of the incubating
>> project's community should of course be taken into account, but in the
>> end it's the Incubator PMC which makes the decision.
>> ****
>
>
> Interesting and I think this is really good (writes a guy who discussed the
> rules a lot).
>
> The problem we wanted to solve (i think) was: how can we keep our incubator
> list
> clean and be pro-active when it comes to housekeeping?
>
> If the IPMC would look at the reporting podlings each month and check if
> retirement is needed, then the above phrase might make perfect sense.
>
> Some might consider it "unfair" to be retired. In example, some projects as
> Wave look inactive but there is some life left. Retire or not? It's
> subjective.
> There is a good chance we keep some long-term running projects, but on the
> other hand...
> what would it matter?
>
> That being said, I would love if the other docs would get such an haircut as
> well.
>
> Cheers,
> Christian
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>> And also keep the "steps to retirement" section.
>>
>> -Bertrand
>>
>> [1] http://incubator.apache.org/guides/retirement.html
>>
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>
>
> ---
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Re: [DISCUSS] Incubator exit criteria
Posted by Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com>.
On 11 Aug 2014, at 10:14, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
> With this in mind, I would remove almost everything from the "What is
> retirement" section and keep just
>
> ****
> A retired project is a project which has been closed down for various
> reasons, instead of graduating as an Apache project. It is no longer
> developed in the Apache Incubator and does not have any other duties.
>
> The project's code might stay available on Apache servers, if all the
> required IP clearance requirements have been met.
>
> Retirement is a decision of the Incubator PMC, which usually delegates
> it to the incubating project's mentors. The opinion of the incubating
> project's community should of course be taken into account, but in the
> end it's the Incubator PMC which makes the decision.
> ****
Interesting and I think this is really good (writes a guy who discussed
the rules a lot).
The problem we wanted to solve (i think) was: how can we keep our
incubator list
clean and be pro-active when it comes to housekeeping?
If the IPMC would look at the reporting podlings each month and check if
retirement is needed, then the above phrase might make perfect sense.
Some might consider it "unfair" to be retired. In example, some projects
as
Wave look inactive but there is some life left. Retire or not? It's
subjective.
There is a good chance we keep some long-term running projects, but on
the other hand...
what would it matter?
That being said, I would love if the other docs would get such an
haircut as well.
Cheers,
Christian
>
> And also keep the "steps to retirement" section.
>
> -Bertrand
>
> [1] http://incubator.apache.org/guides/retirement.html
>
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Re: [DISCUSS] Incubator exit criteria
Posted by jan i <ja...@apache.org>.
On 12 August 2014 09:38, Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 9:08 AM, Roman Shaposhnik <rv...@apache.org> wrote:
> > ... * since I haven't seen much of complaining, can I please commit my
> > proposed stuff and then we can pile additional edits on top of
> that?...
>
> Sure, my complaining is more a general issue about incubator.apache.org
>
> > * re-reading those sections made me realize that we are making a
> > distinction between two types of non-graduation: termination and
> > retirement. The way I read it, with termination there's no code
> left.
> > With retirement code is still available. Am I correct?
>
> that's too complicated, I would scratch it ;-)
>
> How many podlings retire per year? Like one or two maybe - keep it simple.
>
+1. and dont forget its projects leaving incubator, imho they know how we
work, so simple should really do it.
rgds
jan I
>
> -Bertrand
>
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Re: [DISCUSS] Incubator exit criteria
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 9:08 AM, Roman Shaposhnik <rv...@apache.org> wrote:
> ... * since I haven't seen much of complaining, can I please commit my
> proposed stuff and then we can pile additional edits on top of that?...
Sure, my complaining is more a general issue about incubator.apache.org
> * re-reading those sections made me realize that we are making a
> distinction between two types of non-graduation: termination and
> retirement. The way I read it, with termination there's no code left.
> With retirement code is still available. Am I correct?
that's too complicated, I would scratch it ;-)
How many podlings retire per year? Like one or two maybe - keep it simple.
-Bertrand
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Re: [DISCUSS] Incubator exit criteria
Posted by ant elder <an...@gmail.com>.
On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 8:08 AM, Roman Shaposhnik <rv...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 1:14 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz
> <bd...@apache.org> wrote:
> > On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 2:22 AM, Roman Shaposhnik <rv...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> >> ...Including the patch below...
> >
> > Sorry to come in late but I had a look at [1] and it's way too
> > complicated IMO, and I don't think the proposed patch helps with that.
> >
> > In general http://incubator.apache.org/ is way too verbose and hard to
> > maintain - removing everything that is not essential would help IMO.
> >
> > With this in mind, I would remove almost everything from the "What is
> > retirement" section and keep just
> >
> > ****
> > A retired project is a project which has been closed down for various
> > reasons, instead of graduating as an Apache project. It is no longer
> > developed in the Apache Incubator and does not have any other duties.
> >
> > The project's code might stay available on Apache servers, if all the
> > required IP clearance requirements have been met.
> >
> > Retirement is a decision of the Incubator PMC, which usually delegates
> > it to the incubating project's mentors. The opinion of the incubating
> > project's community should of course be taken into account, but in the
> > end it's the Incubator PMC which makes the decision.
> > ****
> >
> > And also keep the "steps to retirement" section.
>
> I totally agree with the section being overly complex to parse. I am,
> however,
> a little bit afraid of such a drastic edit ;-) Two points on that:
> * since I haven't seen much of complaining, can I please commit my
> proposed stuff and then we can pile additional edits on top of that?
> * re-reading those sections made me realize that we are making a
> distinction between two types of non-graduation: termination and
> retirement. The way I read it, with termination there's no code left.
> With retirement code is still available. Am I correct?
>
>
I also feel this is adding unnecessary complexity and would prefer the
edits simplify rather than add more things. If you're really insisting on
adding some of this text would you at least not add the following bit for
now:
" At this point the project is expected
to be put on a monthly reporting schedule and the next month's report
is expected to articulate the steps and expected time frame to get to
the release. In case of a clear lack of progress for straight three
months the [VOTE] thread on potential retirement is expected to be
started in IPMC."
...ant
Re: [DISCUSS] Incubator exit criteria
Posted by Roman Shaposhnik <rv...@apache.org>.
On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 1:14 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz
<bd...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 2:22 AM, Roman Shaposhnik <rv...@apache.org> wrote:
>> ...Including the patch below...
>
> Sorry to come in late but I had a look at [1] and it's way too
> complicated IMO, and I don't think the proposed patch helps with that.
>
> In general http://incubator.apache.org/ is way too verbose and hard to
> maintain - removing everything that is not essential would help IMO.
>
> With this in mind, I would remove almost everything from the "What is
> retirement" section and keep just
>
> ****
> A retired project is a project which has been closed down for various
> reasons, instead of graduating as an Apache project. It is no longer
> developed in the Apache Incubator and does not have any other duties.
>
> The project's code might stay available on Apache servers, if all the
> required IP clearance requirements have been met.
>
> Retirement is a decision of the Incubator PMC, which usually delegates
> it to the incubating project's mentors. The opinion of the incubating
> project's community should of course be taken into account, but in the
> end it's the Incubator PMC which makes the decision.
> ****
>
> And also keep the "steps to retirement" section.
I totally agree with the section being overly complex to parse. I am, however,
a little bit afraid of such a drastic edit ;-) Two points on that:
* since I haven't seen much of complaining, can I please commit my
proposed stuff and then we can pile additional edits on top of that?
* re-reading those sections made me realize that we are making a
distinction between two types of non-graduation: termination and
retirement. The way I read it, with termination there's no code left.
With retirement code is still available. Am I correct?
Thanks,
Roman.
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Re: [DISCUSS] Incubator exit criteria
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 2:22 AM, Roman Shaposhnik <rv...@apache.org> wrote:
> ...Including the patch below...
Sorry to come in late but I had a look at [1] and it's way too
complicated IMO, and I don't think the proposed patch helps with that.
In general http://incubator.apache.org/ is way too verbose and hard to
maintain - removing everything that is not essential would help IMO.
With this in mind, I would remove almost everything from the "What is
retirement" section and keep just
****
A retired project is a project which has been closed down for various
reasons, instead of graduating as an Apache project. It is no longer
developed in the Apache Incubator and does not have any other duties.
The project's code might stay available on Apache servers, if all the
required IP clearance requirements have been met.
Retirement is a decision of the Incubator PMC, which usually delegates
it to the incubating project's mentors. The opinion of the incubating
project's community should of course be taken into account, but in the
end it's the Incubator PMC which makes the decision.
****
And also keep the "steps to retirement" section.
-Bertrand
[1] http://incubator.apache.org/guides/retirement.html
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Re: [DISCUSS] Incubator exit criteria
Posted by Roman Shaposhnik <rv...@apache.org>.
Seems like attachments are eaten away by general@
Including the patch bellow
Index: content/guides/retirement.xml
===================================================================
--- content/guides/retirement.xml (revision 1617182)
+++ content/guides/retirement.xml (working copy)
@@ -64,6 +64,7 @@
<li>If the PPMC unanimously recommends retirement, it gets retired.
No need for a VOTE, just notify the IPMC, leave for 72 hours minimum
and retire it.</li>
<li>If the mentors say it should be retired but the PPMC does not
unanimously agree then the podling should seek to recruit new mentors.
No need to VOTE, just get on with it.</li>
<li>If there insufficient mentors willing to continue working with
the project then the IPMC has a problem to address on a case by case
basis. The shepherd role ensures that these cases are spotted during
the reporting process. If necessary a [DISCUSS] thread can be started
and a sensible plan is developed (which may include a VOTE to retire,
at this point there should be no -1's as a -1 needs to be backed by a
willingness to act and thus this should have been surfaced in case 2)
above.</li>
+ <li>If the project has not had a release for more than a year this
fact will get flagged by the Incubator report and the PPMC will be
expected to get notified (either by one of the mentors or an IPMC
member). The initial discussion with the community is expected to
uncover and start addressing the underlying issues preventing the
project from producing releases. At this point the project is expected
to be put on a monthly reporting schedule and the next month's report
is expected to articulate the steps and expected time frame to get to
the release. In case of a clear lack of progress for straight three
months the [VOTE] thread on potential retirement is expected to be
started in IPMC.</li>
</ol>
<p>
Note, this is exactly what happens with board oversight of TLPs,
Index: content/incubation/Process_Description.xml
===================================================================
--- content/incubation/Process_Description.xml (revision 1617182)
+++ content/incubation/Process_Description.xml (working copy)
@@ -34,7 +34,7 @@
<li><a href="#Establishment">Establishment</a></li>
<li><a href="#Acceptance">Acceptance</a></li>
<li><a href="#Review">Review</a></li>
- <li><a href="#Termination">Termination</a></li>
+ <li><a href="#TerminationRetirement">Termination
or Retirement</a></li>
<li><a href="#Continuation">Continuation</a></li>
<li><a href="#Graduation">Graduation</a></li>
</ul>
@@ -206,9 +206,12 @@
their consideration.
</p>
</section>
- <section id="Termination">
- <title>Termination</title>
- <p>If you receive a recommendation for termination then you have a
+ <section id="TerminationRetirement">
+ <title>Termination or Retirement</title>
+ <p>There are two ways for a project to cease incubation: Termination
+or Retirement.
+
+If you receive a recommendation for termination then you have a
problem. Chances are that there are either legal or structural
problems with your project that in the opinion of the Incubator PMC
are not resolvable within a reasonable time frame. A termination
@@ -217,6 +220,23 @@
Directors and/or your Sponsor. You should be aware that several
Members of the Board are also Members of the Incubator PMC and as
such, an appeal is unlikely to be successful.
+
+Retirement is typically an internal decisions by PPMC. A retired project
+is a project which has been closed down by the PPMC or by the IPMC for
+various reasons. It is not longer developed at the Apache Incubator and
+does not have any other duties.
+
+Retirement can also be suggested by IPMC on the grounds of lack
+of releases for more than a year. However, since unlike termination,
+retirement is a voluntary process, the suggestion will have to be
+discussed and voted upon.
+
+It's important to view this process as being the retirement of the podling
+community, not the code. It should not be implied that the code is not for
+use - just that it has no community. The source code of a retired project
+is available in ASF repository, when the copyright requirements are fullfilled.
+This is indicated through the incubator status page. For more details on
+Retirement please see our <strong><a
href="../guides/retirement.html">Guide to Retirement</a></strong>
</p>
</section>
<section id="Continuation">
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Re: [DISCUSS] Incubator exit criteria
Posted by Roman Shaposhnik <rv...@apache.org>.
Hi!
Sorry for the delay -- OSCON and then a vacation (that was long
promised to my family but never delivered) derailed my legislative
agenda at IPMC ;-)
Attached is the proposed patch to the Incubator website detailing
the policy.
Please comment.
Thanks,
Roman.
On Tue, Jul 15, 2014 at 11:47 PM, ant elder <an...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 16, 2014 at 5:16 AM, Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org>
> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, Jul 12, 2014 at 4:15 AM, Christian Grobmeier
>> <gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > On 12 Jul 2014, at 8:05, Roman Shaposhnik wrote:
>> >> That's actually the part of the thread that I have a lot of interest in.
>> >> Is there any reason not to use attic for hibernated podlings?
>> >
>> > I am not sure if there is a real reason, but maybe its because the attic
>> > currently contains only "real" ASF projects where all legal things were
>> > sorted out.
>> >
>> > With a podling coming in this might not be the case. We would need to
>> > check back with the Attic people if they can handle this.
>> >
>> > Otherwise I don't see a reason why we shouldn't use the attic, imho
>> > its the reason why its there.
>>
>> Quick question: who's in charge of saying 'yay' or 'nay' to Incubator
>> projects coming to the Attic?
>>
>> > Roman, would you mind to create an update patch and send it around
>> > here for some kind of discussing/voting? Then we would see how people
>> feel.
>> > I think this thread is already to big to get the right attention.
>>
>> Will do shortly. Btw, I presume you're talking about the patch
>> to the Incubator web pages documenting the policy, right?
>>
>> At least that's what I'm going to patch and send for a VOTE
>>
>>
>>
> What happpened to you agreeing to try it with a few of the old podlings
> first?
>
> ...ant
Re: [DISCUSS] Incubator exit criteria
Posted by ant elder <an...@gmail.com>.
On Wed, Jul 16, 2014 at 5:16 AM, Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org>
wrote:
> On Sat, Jul 12, 2014 at 4:15 AM, Christian Grobmeier
> <gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 12 Jul 2014, at 8:05, Roman Shaposhnik wrote:
> >> That's actually the part of the thread that I have a lot of interest in.
> >> Is there any reason not to use attic for hibernated podlings?
> >
> > I am not sure if there is a real reason, but maybe its because the attic
> > currently contains only "real" ASF projects where all legal things were
> > sorted out.
> >
> > With a podling coming in this might not be the case. We would need to
> > check back with the Attic people if they can handle this.
> >
> > Otherwise I don't see a reason why we shouldn't use the attic, imho
> > its the reason why its there.
>
> Quick question: who's in charge of saying 'yay' or 'nay' to Incubator
> projects coming to the Attic?
>
> > Roman, would you mind to create an update patch and send it around
> > here for some kind of discussing/voting? Then we would see how people
> feel.
> > I think this thread is already to big to get the right attention.
>
> Will do shortly. Btw, I presume you're talking about the patch
> to the Incubator web pages documenting the policy, right?
>
> At least that's what I'm going to patch and send for a VOTE
>
>
>
What happpened to you agreeing to try it with a few of the old podlings
first?
...ant
Re: [DISCUSS] Incubator exit criteria
Posted by Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org>.
On Sat, Jul 12, 2014 at 4:15 AM, Christian Grobmeier
<gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 12 Jul 2014, at 8:05, Roman Shaposhnik wrote:
>> That's actually the part of the thread that I have a lot of interest in.
>> Is there any reason not to use attic for hibernated podlings?
>
> I am not sure if there is a real reason, but maybe its because the attic
> currently contains only "real" ASF projects where all legal things were
> sorted out.
>
> With a podling coming in this might not be the case. We would need to
> check back with the Attic people if they can handle this.
>
> Otherwise I don't see a reason why we shouldn't use the attic, imho
> its the reason why its there.
Quick question: who's in charge of saying 'yay' or 'nay' to Incubator
projects coming to the Attic?
> Roman, would you mind to create an update patch and send it around
> here for some kind of discussing/voting? Then we would see how people feel.
> I think this thread is already to big to get the right attention.
Will do shortly. Btw, I presume you're talking about the patch
to the Incubator web pages documenting the policy, right?
At least that's what I'm going to patch and send for a VOTE
Thanks,
Roman.
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Re: [DISCUSS] Incubator exit criteria
Posted by Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com>.
On 12 Jul 2014, at 8:05, Roman Shaposhnik wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 11, 2014 at 1:18 AM, ant elder <an...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> As i've said i don't think thats a
>> very good rule and doesn't seem like its really been thought through
>> properly. For example, its kept saying that the podling would go to
>> the ASF Attic but the Attic is only for TLPs so retired podlings don't
>> go there.
>
> That's actually the part of the thread that I have a lot of interest in.
> Is there any reason not to use attic for hibernated podlings?
I am not sure if there is a real reason, but maybe its because the attic
currently contains only "real" ASF projects where all legal things were
sorted out.
With a podling coming in this might not be the case. We would need to
check back with the Attic people if they can handle this.
Otherwise I don't see a reason why we shouldn't use the attic, imho
its the reason why its there.
>> How about before adding a new rule to the policy page we just try it
>> with a few of the old podlings first to see what happens and from that
>> find what sort of rule might work?
>
> That would be fine too.
Roman, would you mind to create an update patch and send it around
here for some kind of discussing/voting? Then we would see how people feel.
I think this thread is already to big to get the right attention.
Thanks!
>
> Thanks,
> Roman.
>
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Re: [DISCUSS] Incubator exit criteria
Posted by Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org>.
On Fri, Jul 11, 2014 at 1:18 AM, ant elder <an...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I think its something like "If a podling is over a year old and not
> done a release then retire it".
Almost. What is being proposed is not an immediate retirement,
but rather a vote. So it should really read: "If a podling is over a
year old and not done a release then start a discussion of
retiring the podling"
> As i've said i don't think thats a
> very good rule and doesn't seem like its really been thought through
> properly. For example, its kept saying that the podling would go to
> the ASF Attic but the Attic is only for TLPs so retired podlings don't
> go there.
That's actually the part of the thread that I have a lot of interest in.
Is there any reason not to use attic for hibernated podlings?
> How about before adding a new rule to the policy page we just try it
> with a few of the old podlings first to see what happens and from that
> find what sort of rule might work?
That would be fine too.
Thanks,
Roman.
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Re: [DISCUSS] Incubator exit criteria
Posted by ant elder <an...@gmail.com>.
This is quite a long thread now so its not that clear what the actual
proposal is now, could you maybe state what the current proposal is?
I think its something like "If a podling is over a year old and not
done a release then retire it". As i've said i don't think thats a
very good rule and doesn't seem like its really been thought through
properly. For example, its kept saying that the podling would go to
the ASF Attic but the Attic is only for TLPs so retired podlings don't
go there.
How about before adding a new rule to the policy page we just try it
with a few of the old podlings first to see what happens and from that
find what sort of rule might work?
...ant
On Wed, Jul 9, 2014 at 8:23 AM, Roman Shaposhnik <rv...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 1, 2014 at 11:01 PM, ant elder <an...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Right, and thats why i don't think a rule like that would be useful.
>
> I still don't quite follow. Are you saying that the rule wouldn't
> be useful, or that incubator -> attic migration wouldn't be?
>
>> If Droids was made to retire the code would be frozen in the attic or
>> forced out to github,
>
> That would be true. But what's the harm in that? The code
> still exists and can be checked out. What we're essentially
> signaling to the outside world is that ASF can no longer
> vouch for the viability of the community around it. Isn't it
> the truth of the matter?
>
>> forced to change its package name
>
> I don't really see any reason to do that for code
> that got moved to that attic. Am I missing something?
>
>> in the code and so probably lose existing users,
>
> Again, why would code lose users? Remember we're talking
> about a situation of no releases here. Presumably those
> users who are comfortable building from the repo would
> just keep doing so. And since there was no release,
> what else is out there for us to worry about?
>
>> and remove all references to apache in the
>> project and doc and website etc etc. All tons of work which being a small
>> project they'd probably never get done so it would likely be the death of
>> the project.
>
> I see no reason to do any of that for the project that's
> in the attic.
>
>> And for what purpose? To quote one of them from their dev list a couple of
>> months ago: "Going to the attic would suck. It's a solid code base, it's
>> just one of those things that doesn't necessarily need to change much.".
>> The main people in Droids we know and trust, they are ASF members and PMC
>> chairs. We in the Incubator should be helping them graduate not looking for
>> ways to retire the project.
>
> The quote feels a little bit misinformed about the attic/ASF
> policies.
>
> Thanks,
> Roman.
>
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Re: [DISCUSS] Incubator exit criteria
Posted by Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org>.
On Wed, Jul 9, 2014 at 1:48 AM, Rob Vesse <rv...@dotnetrdf.org> wrote:
> On 09/07/2014 09:12, "Chris Douglas" <cd...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, Jul 9, 2014 at 12:23 AM, Roman Shaposhnik <rv...@apache.org> wrote:
>>> Again, why would code lose users? Remember we're talking
>>> about a situation of no releases here. Presumably those
>>> users who are comfortable building from the repo would
>>> just keep doing so. And since there was no release,
>>> what else is out there for us to worry about?
>>
>>IIRC there may be implications for licensing if someone is literally
>>pulling code out of trunk and distributing it. Without a release, the
>>PMC hasn't represented that the artifact is kosher. For release tags,
>>this is true.
>
> I assume Roman is talking about an external user not someone acting for
> the PPMC here?
Yup.
Thanks,
Roman.
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Re: [DISCUSS] Incubator exit criteria
Posted by Rob Vesse <rv...@dotnetrdf.org>.
On 09/07/2014 09:12, "Chris Douglas" <cd...@apache.org> wrote:
>On Wed, Jul 9, 2014 at 12:23 AM, Roman Shaposhnik <rv...@apache.org> wrote:
>> Again, why would code lose users? Remember we're talking
>> about a situation of no releases here. Presumably those
>> users who are comfortable building from the repo would
>> just keep doing so. And since there was no release,
>> what else is out there for us to worry about?
>
>IIRC there may be implications for licensing if someone is literally
>pulling code out of trunk and distributing it. Without a release, the
>PMC hasn't represented that the artifact is kosher. For release tags,
>this is true.
I assume Roman is talking about an external user not someone acting for
the PPMC here?
IANAL but my two cents:
Users always have the option of pulling from source code and building
whether we are talking about podlings or top level projects. The ASF
makes it clear that source control does not constitute a release and so
does not have the legal assurances that users can expect from an official
ASF release. However by virtue of being open source we provide the means
for users to do this if they so wish.
If people are choosing to use/redistribute code that they have taken from
our source control then they are assuming any legal risks, people doing
this likely have much more liberal licensing policies or don't care
If a PPMC member was pulling from source and distributing outside the ASF
then that would be much more murky as to who they are acting for and may
indeed have legal implications for the ASF
Rob
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Re: [DISCUSS] Incubator exit criteria
Posted by Chris Douglas <cd...@apache.org>.
On Wed, Jul 9, 2014 at 12:23 AM, Roman Shaposhnik <rv...@apache.org> wrote:
> Again, why would code lose users? Remember we're talking
> about a situation of no releases here. Presumably those
> users who are comfortable building from the repo would
> just keep doing so. And since there was no release,
> what else is out there for us to worry about?
IIRC there may be implications for licensing if someone is literally
pulling code out of trunk and distributing it. Without a release, the
PMC hasn't represented that the artifact is kosher. For release tags,
this is true.
>> and remove all references to apache in the
>> project and doc and website etc etc. All tons of work which being a small
>> project they'd probably never get done so it would likely be the death of
>> the project.
>
> I see no reason to do any of that for the project that's
> in the attic.
This seems consistent. Either there's development and new artifacts in
its life after Apache (requiring some work), or there's no development
and the existing artifacts are untouched.
Besides: if development restarts, reactivating the project from the
attic should not be difficult. This shouldn't create problems in
practice.
>> And for what purpose? To quote one of them from their dev list a couple of
>> months ago: "Going to the attic would suck. It's a solid code base, it's
>> just one of those things that doesn't necessarily need to change much.".
>> The main people in Droids we know and trust, they are ASF members and PMC
>> chairs. We in the Incubator should be helping them graduate not looking for
>> ways to retire the project.
>
> The quote feels a little bit misinformed about the attic/ASF
> policies.
+1 I don't see how the contributors' status has anything to do with
the project's viability.
Are there aspects about the attic that we haven't considered? Why
would that "suck"? -C
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Re: [DISCUSS] Incubator exit criteria
Posted by Roman Shaposhnik <rv...@apache.org>.
On Tue, Jul 1, 2014 at 11:01 PM, ant elder <an...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Right, and thats why i don't think a rule like that would be useful.
I still don't quite follow. Are you saying that the rule wouldn't
be useful, or that incubator -> attic migration wouldn't be?
> If Droids was made to retire the code would be frozen in the attic or
> forced out to github,
That would be true. But what's the harm in that? The code
still exists and can be checked out. What we're essentially
signaling to the outside world is that ASF can no longer
vouch for the viability of the community around it. Isn't it
the truth of the matter?
> forced to change its package name
I don't really see any reason to do that for code
that got moved to that attic. Am I missing something?
> in the code and so probably lose existing users,
Again, why would code lose users? Remember we're talking
about a situation of no releases here. Presumably those
users who are comfortable building from the repo would
just keep doing so. And since there was no release,
what else is out there for us to worry about?
> and remove all references to apache in the
> project and doc and website etc etc. All tons of work which being a small
> project they'd probably never get done so it would likely be the death of
> the project.
I see no reason to do any of that for the project that's
in the attic.
> And for what purpose? To quote one of them from their dev list a couple of
> months ago: "Going to the attic would suck. It's a solid code base, it's
> just one of those things that doesn't necessarily need to change much.".
> The main people in Droids we know and trust, they are ASF members and PMC
> chairs. We in the Incubator should be helping them graduate not looking for
> ways to retire the project.
The quote feels a little bit misinformed about the attic/ASF
policies.
Thanks,
Roman.
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Re: [DISCUSS] Incubator exit criteria
Posted by ant elder <an...@gmail.com>.
On Wed, Jul 2, 2014 at 3:35 AM, Joe Brockmeier <jz...@zonker.net> wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 1, 2014, at 04:23 AM, ant elder wrote:
> > On Tue, Jul 1, 2014 at 4:46 AM, Roman Shaposhnik <rv...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi!
> > >
> > > Sorry for a belated reply -- at first I was following Doug's rule
> > > and then I got distracted ;-)
> > >
> > > That said -- I really would like to drive us to some kind
> > > consensus (even if we have to do the vote) because
> > > the current situation is simply sad (top 8 project):
> > > https://whimsy.apache.org/incubator/podlings/by-age
> > >
> > >
> > I had a quick look at a few of the top 8 podlings in that link.
> >
> > Droids should be helped to graduate not to retire, VXQuery is currently
> > voting to graduate, ODF toolkit should graduate (IMHO), S4 has just voted
> > to retire.
>
> Are you saying Droids is ready to graduate, or...?
>
> Looking at its mailing lists and last report, I'm not seeing many signs
> of activity. Why is it a target for graduation rather than retirement?
> Is there activity that I'm missing? Last release was in August 2012, at
> least according to its Web site. (0.2-incubating)
>
> Under the proposed rules, Droids would be a candidate for retirement,
> not graduation, unless I'm missing something.
>
>
>
Right, and thats why i don't think a rule like that would be useful.
If Droids was made to retire the code would be frozen in the attic or
forced out to github, forced to change its package name in the code and so
probably lose existing users, and remove all references to apache in the
project and doc and website etc etc. All tons of work which being a small
project they'd probably never get done so it would likely be the death of
the project.
And for what purpose? To quote one of them from their dev list a couple of
months ago: "Going to the attic would suck. It's a solid code base, it's
just one of those things that doesn't necessarily need to change much.".
The main people in Droids we know and trust, they are ASF members and PMC
chairs. We in the Incubator should be helping them graduate not looking for
ways to retire the project.
...ant
Re: [DISCUSS] Incubator exit criteria
Posted by Joe Brockmeier <jz...@zonker.net>.
On Tue, Jul 1, 2014, at 04:23 AM, ant elder wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 1, 2014 at 4:46 AM, Roman Shaposhnik <rv...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > Hi!
> >
> > Sorry for a belated reply -- at first I was following Doug's rule
> > and then I got distracted ;-)
> >
> > That said -- I really would like to drive us to some kind
> > consensus (even if we have to do the vote) because
> > the current situation is simply sad (top 8 project):
> > https://whimsy.apache.org/incubator/podlings/by-age
> >
> >
> I had a quick look at a few of the top 8 podlings in that link.
>
> Droids should be helped to graduate not to retire, VXQuery is currently
> voting to graduate, ODF toolkit should graduate (IMHO), S4 has just voted
> to retire.
Are you saying Droids is ready to graduate, or...?
Looking at its mailing lists and last report, I'm not seeing many signs
of activity. Why is it a target for graduation rather than retirement?
Is there activity that I'm missing? Last release was in August 2012, at
least according to its Web site. (0.2-incubating)
Under the proposed rules, Droids would be a candidate for retirement,
not graduation, unless I'm missing something.
> So from that i'm not really seeing the need for a new rule about retiring
> podlings.
I fail to see any harm in having a rule to start a VOTE if a podling
doesn't meet certain criteria. Worst case scenario, we have a discussion
and the podling/mentors can make a case that the podling just needs more
time to graduate and/or certain types of assistance.
Best,
jzb
--
Joe Brockmeier
jzb@zonker.net
Twitter: @jzb
http://www.dissociatedpress.net/
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Re: [DISCUSS] Incubator exit criteria
Posted by ant elder <an...@gmail.com>.
On Tue, Jul 1, 2014 at 4:46 AM, Roman Shaposhnik <rv...@apache.org> wrote:
> Hi!
>
> Sorry for a belated reply -- at first I was following Doug's rule
> and then I got distracted ;-)
>
> That said -- I really would like to drive us to some kind
> consensus (even if we have to do the vote) because
> the current situation is simply sad (top 8 project):
> https://whimsy.apache.org/incubator/podlings/by-age
>
>
I had a quick look at a few of the top 8 podlings in that link.
Droids should be helped to graduate not to retire, VXQuery is currently
voting to graduate, ODF toolkit should graduate (IMHO), S4 has just voted
to retire.
So from that i'm not really seeing the need for a new rule about retiring
podlings. I'm not sure where the current retirement policy is documented,
there best i can find is this email from Ross which i really like, its on
the private list (i thought that was going to be put up on the wiki, did
that ever happen?): http://s.apache.org/ZHh
...ant