You are viewing a plain text version of this content. The canonical link for it is here.
Posted to dev@pulsar.apache.org by Dave Fisher <wa...@apache.org> on 2022/01/04 03:59:45 UTC
Voting time period minimum
The ASF considers that the minimum time for a vote is 72 hours for a few reasons particularly:
(1) to allow the world to spin. People are in most time zones.
(2) to allow for weekends.
(3) to allow time for contributors who are not working full time on the project.
Many projects use a 7 day vote.
We just had 2 PIP votes called for 48 hours so this rule is worth reiterating!
All the best,
Dave
Sent from my iPhone
Re: Voting time period minimum
Posted by Dave Fisher <wa...@apache.org>.
> On Jan 7, 2022, at 2:59 PM, Matteo Merli <ma...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Fri, Jan 7, 2022 at 9:27 AM Dave Fisher <wa...@apache.org> wrote:
>>> I believe 48 hours vote is only for PIP, which was agreed in the dev@.
>>
>> I would like to understand why Matteo chose 48 hours for this process. What’s the hurry?
>
> Since we went from no formal process to "some" process, and since any
> change to public APIs and tools is subject to PIP process, the concern
> was to not impose a too long delay in getting smaller changes approved
> and merged.
Some process is great. But a PIP is for something larger than a PR, correct?
>
> From the original text:
>
> | It is not a goal for PIP to add undue process or slow-down the development.
>
>> (Also, I’m not sure what is meant by "Lazy Voting” I don’t find that defined in ASF documentation.)
>
> Where is the term "lazy voting" coming from? I did use "lazy majority"
> which is the term that indicates that you only need a majority among
> the PMC votes, not across all the PMC members (most of which will not
> vote on all the PIPs).
Most PMC members don’t VOTE on much.
>
> | 4. Once some consensus is reached, there will be a vote to formally
> approve the proposal. The vote will be held on the
> dev@pulsar.apache.org mailing list. Everyone is welcome to vote on the
> proposal, though it will considered to be binding only the vote of PMC
> members. I would be required to have a lazy majority of at least 3
> binding +1s votes. The vote should stay open for at least 48 hours.
The trouble with 48 hours is that it can be too short a time for people to have time to review - the project is global and a vote over a weekend may not get the attention it deserves.
That said as long as PMC members are clearly marking their votes as binding then the vote can go for a minimum of 48 hours.
I do think that anyone who is -1 ought to be making their technical veto understood during the discussion phase and a VOTE should not happen if there is a technically valid reason not to proceed. Technically valid reasons could include security issues and invalid licensing, etc.
I hope that discussion can be just that instead of additional +1 (but then I’m a grumpy old guy)
Regards,
Dave
>
>
> --
> Matteo Merli
> <ma...@gmail.com>
Re: Voting time period minimum
Posted by Matteo Merli <ma...@gmail.com>.
On Fri, Jan 7, 2022 at 9:27 AM Dave Fisher <wa...@apache.org> wrote:
> > I believe 48 hours vote is only for PIP, which was agreed in the dev@.
>
> I would like to understand why Matteo chose 48 hours for this process. What’s the hurry?
Since we went from no formal process to "some" process, and since any
change to public APIs and tools is subject to PIP process, the concern
was to not impose a too long delay in getting smaller changes approved
and merged.
From the original text:
| It is not a goal for PIP to add undue process or slow-down the development.
> (Also, I’m not sure what is meant by "Lazy Voting” I don’t find that defined in ASF documentation.)
Where is the term "lazy voting" coming from? I did use "lazy majority"
which is the term that indicates that you only need a majority among
the PMC votes, not across all the PMC members (most of which will not
vote on all the PIPs).
| 4. Once some consensus is reached, there will be a vote to formally
approve the proposal. The vote will be held on the
dev@pulsar.apache.org mailing list. Everyone is welcome to vote on the
proposal, though it will considered to be binding only the vote of PMC
members. I would be required to have a lazy majority of at least 3
binding +1s votes. The vote should stay open for at least 48 hours.
--
Matteo Merli
<ma...@gmail.com>
Re: Voting time period minimum
Posted by Dave Fisher <wa...@apache.org>.
> On Jan 6, 2022, at 4:51 PM, Sijie Guo <gu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I believe 48 hours vote is only for PIP, which was agreed in the dev@.
I would like to understand why Matteo chose 48 hours for this process. What’s the hurry?
In this discussion there is a mixture of discussion and +1. [1]
Did the project ever actually VOTE to VOTE on PIPs, or was Lazy Consensus assumed? I don’t see any VOTE for this when I search. [2]
(Also, I’m not sure what is meant by "Lazy Voting” I don’t find that defined in ASF documentation.)
Regards,
Dave
[1] https://lists.apache.org/thread/m8dr0hz7qn7rkd48bcp430lcq2q3674g
[2] https://lists.apache.org/list?dev@pulsar.apache.org:lte=1y:[VOTE]
>
> For other activities, this project follows the ASF 72 hours rule.
>
> - Sijie
>
> On Mon, Jan 3, 2022 at 8:17 PM Dave Fisher <wa...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> Yes please! I did not notice that.
>>
>> Personally I would be ok with 72 hours lazy consensus, but if we must vote
>> then 72 hours is a minimum.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Dave
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>> On Jan 3, 2022, at 8:10 PM, Haiting Jiang <ji...@apache.org>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Dave,
>>>
>>> The "48 hours" rule is on [1].
>>> Maybe we should update the wiki and PIP template first?
>>>
>>> [1]
>> https://github.com/apache/pulsar/wiki/Pulsar-Improvement-Proposal-%28PIP%29
>>>
>>>> On 2022/01/04 03:59:45 Dave Fisher wrote:
>>>> The ASF considers that the minimum time for a vote is 72 hours for a
>> few reasons particularly:
>>>>
>>>> (1) to allow the world to spin. People are in most time zones.
>>>> (2) to allow for weekends.
>>>> (3) to allow time for contributors who are not working full time on the
>> project.
>>>>
>>>> Many projects use a 7 day vote.
>>>>
>>>> We just had 2 PIP votes called for 48 hours so this rule is worth
>> reiterating!
>>>>
>>>> All the best,
>>>> Dave
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Haiting Jiang
>>
>>
Re: Voting time period minimum
Posted by Sijie Guo <gu...@gmail.com>.
I believe 48 hours vote is only for PIP, which was agreed in the dev@.
For other activities, this project follows the ASF 72 hours rule.
- Sijie
On Mon, Jan 3, 2022 at 8:17 PM Dave Fisher <wa...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Yes please! I did not notice that.
>
> Personally I would be ok with 72 hours lazy consensus, but if we must vote
> then 72 hours is a minimum.
>
> Thanks,
> Dave
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Jan 3, 2022, at 8:10 PM, Haiting Jiang <ji...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Dave,
> >
> > The "48 hours" rule is on [1].
> > Maybe we should update the wiki and PIP template first?
> >
> > [1]
> https://github.com/apache/pulsar/wiki/Pulsar-Improvement-Proposal-%28PIP%29
> >
> >> On 2022/01/04 03:59:45 Dave Fisher wrote:
> >> The ASF considers that the minimum time for a vote is 72 hours for a
> few reasons particularly:
> >>
> >> (1) to allow the world to spin. People are in most time zones.
> >> (2) to allow for weekends.
> >> (3) to allow time for contributors who are not working full time on the
> project.
> >>
> >> Many projects use a 7 day vote.
> >>
> >> We just had 2 PIP votes called for 48 hours so this rule is worth
> reiterating!
> >>
> >> All the best,
> >> Dave
> >>
> >> Sent from my iPhone
> >>
> >
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Haiting Jiang
>
>
Re: Voting time period minimum
Posted by Michael Marshall <mm...@apache.org>.
I agree that 72 hours should be the minimum.
For reference, this thread [0] from August 2021 proposed using 48
hours for the PIP voting period, and it explains why the wiki says 48
hours.
> (3) to allow time for contributors who are not working full time on the project.
I think this point is crucial, especially when we have several votes
open at one time.
Thanks,
Michael
[0] https://lists.apache.org/thread/m8dr0hz7qn7rkd48bcp430lcq2q3674g
On Mon, Jan 3, 2022 at 10:17 PM Dave Fisher <wa...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> Yes please! I did not notice that.
>
> Personally I would be ok with 72 hours lazy consensus, but if we must vote then 72 hours is a minimum.
>
> Thanks,
> Dave
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Jan 3, 2022, at 8:10 PM, Haiting Jiang <ji...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Dave,
> >
> > The "48 hours" rule is on [1].
> > Maybe we should update the wiki and PIP template first?
> >
> > [1] https://github.com/apache/pulsar/wiki/Pulsar-Improvement-Proposal-%28PIP%29
> >
> >> On 2022/01/04 03:59:45 Dave Fisher wrote:
> >> The ASF considers that the minimum time for a vote is 72 hours for a few reasons particularly:
> >>
> >> (1) to allow the world to spin. People are in most time zones.
> >> (2) to allow for weekends.
> >> (3) to allow time for contributors who are not working full time on the project.
> >>
> >> Many projects use a 7 day vote.
> >>
> >> We just had 2 PIP votes called for 48 hours so this rule is worth reiterating!
> >>
> >> All the best,
> >> Dave
> >>
> >> Sent from my iPhone
> >>
> >
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Haiting Jiang
>
Re: Voting time period minimum
Posted by Dave Fisher <wa...@comcast.net>.
Yes please! I did not notice that.
Personally I would be ok with 72 hours lazy consensus, but if we must vote then 72 hours is a minimum.
Thanks,
Dave
Sent from my iPhone
> On Jan 3, 2022, at 8:10 PM, Haiting Jiang <ji...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> Hi Dave,
>
> The "48 hours" rule is on [1].
> Maybe we should update the wiki and PIP template first?
>
> [1] https://github.com/apache/pulsar/wiki/Pulsar-Improvement-Proposal-%28PIP%29
>
>> On 2022/01/04 03:59:45 Dave Fisher wrote:
>> The ASF considers that the minimum time for a vote is 72 hours for a few reasons particularly:
>>
>> (1) to allow the world to spin. People are in most time zones.
>> (2) to allow for weekends.
>> (3) to allow time for contributors who are not working full time on the project.
>>
>> Many projects use a 7 day vote.
>>
>> We just had 2 PIP votes called for 48 hours so this rule is worth reiterating!
>>
>> All the best,
>> Dave
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>
>
> Thanks,
> Haiting Jiang
Re: Voting time period minimum
Posted by Haiting Jiang <ji...@apache.org>.
Hi Dave,
The "48 hours" rule is on [1].
Maybe we should update the wiki and PIP template first?
[1] https://github.com/apache/pulsar/wiki/Pulsar-Improvement-Proposal-%28PIP%29
On 2022/01/04 03:59:45 Dave Fisher wrote:
> The ASF considers that the minimum time for a vote is 72 hours for a few reasons particularly:
>
> (1) to allow the world to spin. People are in most time zones.
> (2) to allow for weekends.
> (3) to allow time for contributors who are not working full time on the project.
>
> Many projects use a 7 day vote.
>
> We just had 2 PIP votes called for 48 hours so this rule is worth reiterating!
>
> All the best,
> Dave
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
Thanks,
Haiting Jiang