RE: cvs commit: xml-cocoon/src/org/apache/cocoon Notification.jav a Notifier.java

["Timm, Sean" <ST...@mailgo.com>]

I was rather surprised to see a response like this to a simple code change.
I've addressed several items below that I hope you will give strong
consideration to.  Please remember that I am speaking only for myself...I
have no idea how others feel about this issue.

Nicola Ken Barozzi [mailto:nicolaken@supereva.it] wrote:
> stefano@locus.apache.org wrote:
> > 
> > Log:
> >   removed that unportable (and useless) ASCII art along with (slow)
> >   system.out (logs are there for a reason) and cleanup the messy code
> 
> Thanks! (this eases stuff!)

>I'm sorry that you think my coding is messy, and I would prefer that you
tell
>me first, being it my code, if it's not too much of a fuss >:-(

I think it is important to recognize that we are working on an open-source
project.  I know there are "code ownership" political issues in many
companies, but I would sincerely hope that those attitudes would not bleed
into this project.  Once the code has been committed, it is no longer *your*
code...it is *our* code, and we all are committed to making that code as
good as possible.  It's one of the strengths of open source.

>Anyway, why is it messy? Would you like it if I go round saying _your_
>code is messy? Don't think you are perfect, we _all_ have to learn.
>It is important that I get feedback on my code.
>I think these remarks are _unfair_. :-(

You ask for feedback on your code, and you slam the feedback you got all in
the same paragraph!  You didn't just get some minor feedback.  You got the
fully revised source of how someone else feels things should be, and you can
compare it to what you had and learn.  What could possibly be better than
that?  Not only that, but if you disagree with the feedback, you now have
the opportunity to discuss it among a widely experienced group of developers
to come up with the best solution.  In this scenario, everyone improves!

>The " unportable (and useless) ASCII art " was there to make errors more
>evident and not pass unnoticed. No problem if it annoys you, I don't care
>if you take it away, but it was not put there just for fun.
>The "(slow) system.out" is rather important to me and to many other 
>programmers IMO, and if it's slow who cares, it should not fire if all
>is ok. "(logs are there for a reason)"... yes, I KNOW, I already said
>I knew logging had to be kicked in, and the "(slow) system.out" is there
>just till C2 gets finished. Alpha 2a? Get real.
>

It looks like these are some issues you disagree with, and this open forum
would be a good opportunity for you to increase your learning (or educate
some others) :) .

>I would appreciate you all refer to the author of the code first before
>spreading _bullshit_ because:
>1. nobody is perfect, this is for the users and the coders.

The users want high-quality code.  The coders want to be able to change it.
A "code ownership" attitude prevents both.

>2. if you didn't write the code maybe you don't understand it. Some things
>that seem stupid to you have been thought of. 

Sounds like a good opportunity for some discussion...in the open...on the
list...

>3. if the author doesn't get notified he cannot improve.

You have been notified.  You got CVS commit mailings just like everyone
else, and instead of taking the opportunity to improve or make inquiries
into how to improve or why improvement was necessary, you took offense to
it.

>4. it's not nice to refer to other's people code as sloppy, you are not
perfect.

We could play a touchy-feely dance where we try and get the words right so
we don't offend anyone at all, or we can call it like we see it.
Personally, I'd rather know that someone thought my code was sloppy instead
of never finding out because they don't know how to tell me without
offending me.  Since the issue has been brought up, I'd like to state the
following to all Cocoon developers:

IF ANYONE THINKS MY CODE SUCKS...TELL ME IT SUCKS...BUT TELL ME WHY.

>5. if the code is not ok, who wrote it is the first one who has to make it
ok.

I completely disagree with this statement.  Whoever wrote it, released it to
an open-source project.  Anyone can (and will) make it ok.  I can't make
this point strongly enough...there is NO PLACE for code-ownership on an
open-source project.

>
>I am astonished by this lack of sensibility.
>I hope it will not happen again.
>Nobody would like to contribute if this is done behind their backs.
>If you don't trust me, tell me.
>If you don't like my code tell me.

You were told through the CVS commit...

>If you don't think I'm good enough, don't accept my work.

No one ever said you weren't good enough...they just improved the portions
of code that they felt weren't good enough.  What's wrong with that?

>
>But please, don't make fun of me.

No one *EVER* made fun of you.  If a committer ever did make fun of
someone's code, and no one did anything about it, I would personally fork
this project, actively recruit from the existing project, and make an active
effort to piss off those that did so (even if I'm not half as qualified a
coder).  :)  You chose to take offense to someone making a code change to
something that you happened to initially write.  You chose to view an
opportunity for improvement as a personal attack against you as a person.
You still have the opportunity to choose to look at things in a different
light, and I sincerely hope you will.

- Sean T.

Re: cvs commit: xml-cocoon/src/org/apache/cocoon Notification.java Notifier.java

[Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@tiscalinet.it>]

From: "Timm, Sean" <ST...@mailgo.com>

> I was rather surprised to see a response like this to a simple code change.
> I've addressed several items below that I hope you will give strong
> consideration to.  Please remember that I am speaking only for myself...I
> have no idea how others feel about this issue.
> 
> Nicola Ken Barozzi [mailto:nicolaken@supereva.it] wrote:
> > stefano@locus.apache.org wrote:
> > > 
> > > Log:
> > >   removed that unportable (and useless) ASCII art along with (slow)
> > >   system.out (logs are there for a reason) and cleanup the messy code
> > 
> > Thanks! (this eases stuff!)
> 
> >I'm sorry that you think my coding is messy, and I would prefer that you
> tell
> >me first, being it my code, if it's not too much of a fuss >:-(
> 
> I think it is important to recognize that we are working on an open-source
> project.  I know there are "code ownership" political issues in many
> companies, but I would sincerely hope that those attitudes would not bleed
> into this project.  Once the code has been committed, it is no longer *your*
> code...it is *our* code, and we all are committed to making that code as
> good as possible.  It's one of the strengths of open source.

I totally agree.
When I say my code, I'm just saying I wrote it in the first place, and that
I feel I did my best. I'm not sending something I personally regard messy.

> >Anyway, why is it messy? Would you like it if I go round saying _your_
> >code is messy? Don't think you are perfect, we _all_ have to learn.
> >It is important that I get feedback on my code.
> >I think these remarks are _unfair_. :-(
> 
> You ask for feedback on your code, and you slam the feedback you got all in
> the same paragraph!  

That's not feedback.
Stefano made changes, Pier posted to the list.
What makes Stefano think it's best to ditch chunks of code?
If it's there, someone is using it, no?

> You didn't just get some minor feedback.  You got the
> fully revised source of how someone else feels things should be, and you can
> compare it to what you had and learn.  What could possibly be better than
> that?  Not only that, but if you disagree with the feedback, you now have
> the opportunity to discuss it among a widely experienced group of developers
> to come up with the best solution.  In this scenario, everyone improves!

I agree too.
Giacomo Pati did the same with the first things I sent and I really appreciated
it.
He didn't have to make remarks about how it was written (I know it was horrible
by myself ;-) )and didn't take whole bunches of code away without first 
asking the list.
Useful (IMO) functionality was stripped without first asking the list.

> >The " unportable (and useless) ASCII art " was there to make errors more
> >evident and not pass unnoticed. No problem if it annoys you, I don't care
> >if you take it away, but it was not put there just for fun.
> >The "(slow) system.out" is rather important to me and to many other 
> >programmers IMO, and if it's slow who cares, it should not fire if all
> >is ok. "(logs are there for a reason)"... yes, I KNOW, I already said
> >I knew logging had to be kicked in, and the "(slow) system.out" is there
> >just till C2 gets finished. Alpha 2a? Get real.
> >
> 
> It looks like these are some issues you disagree with, and this open forum
> would be a good opportunity for you to increase your learning (or educate
> some others) :) .

It is with both.
I posted several replies and put forth many issues as you know.
I tell people when I disagree, don't go changing code I don't like
when it's _not_ buggy.

> >I would appreciate you all refer to the author of the code first before
> >spreading _bullshit_ because:
> >1. nobody is perfect, this is for the users and the coders.
> 
> The users want high-quality code.  The coders want to be able to change it.
> A "code ownership" attitude prevents both.

Right.
It's the comments I don't like.

> >2. if you didn't write the code maybe you don't understand it. Some things
> >that seem stupid to you have been thought of. 
> 
> Sounds like a good opportunity for some discussion...in the open...on the
> list...

That's what I want.

> >3. if the author doesn't get notified he cannot improve.
> 
> You have been notified.  You got CVS commit mailings just like everyone
> else, and instead of taking the opportunity to improve or make inquiries
> into how to improve or why improvement was necessary, you took offense to
> it.

Probably I fire too easily and it's not good.
I apoligise for this. 
Sorry.
But being notified of the changes in this way is not the same thing 
of being brought in a discussion on what to do.

> >4. it's not nice to refer to other's people code as sloppy, you are not
> perfect.
> 
> We could play a touchy-feely dance where we try and get the words right so
> we don't offend anyone at all, or we can call it like we see it.
> Personally, I'd rather know that someone thought my code was sloppy instead
> of never finding out because they don't know how to tell me without
> offending me.  Since the issue has been brought up, I'd like to state the
> following to all Cocoon developers:
> 
> IF ANYONE THINKS MY CODE SUCKS...TELL ME IT SUCKS...BUT TELL ME WHY.

Good.
This is EXACTLY what I meant.

> >5. if the code is not ok, who wrote it is the first one who has to make it
> ok.
> 
> I completely disagree with this statement.  Whoever wrote it, released it to
> an open-source project.  Anyone can (and will) make it ok.  I can't make
> this point strongly enough...there is NO PLACE for code-ownership on an
> open-source project.

Right.
There is NO PLACE for code-ownership. 
I know.
But it is not correct to say that the code was not ok.
It worked.
There were no bugs.

> >I am astonished by this lack of sensibility.
> >I hope it will not happen again.
> >Nobody would like to contribute if this is done behind their backs.
> >If you don't trust me, tell me.
> >If you don't like my code tell me.
> 
> You were told through the CVS commit...

Not with a very happy choice of words I should say...
 
> >If you don't think I'm good enough, don't accept my work.
> 
> No one ever said you weren't good enough...they just improved the portions
> of code that they felt weren't good enough.  What's wrong with that?

That's not the point.
The comment is.

> >
> >But please, don't make fun of me.
> 
> No one *EVER* made fun of you.  If a committer ever did make fun of
> someone's code, and no one did anything about it, I would personally fork
> this project, actively recruit from the existing project, and make an active
> effort to piss off those that did so (even if I'm not half as qualified a
> coder).  :)  You chose to take offense to someone making a code change to
> something that you happened to initially write.  You chose to view an
> opportunity for improvement as a personal attack against you as a person.
> You still have the opportunity to choose to look at things in a different
> light, and I sincerely hope you will.

Ok. 
Sorry again for my letter, I just didn't like what I think are unappropriate
remarks on my work without a decent explanation.
I have worked very well till now with you all and hope this will continue in
the future.
I hope that from now on feature decisions can be discussed on the list 
before being singlehandedly taken away.
I would also like to clarify that the point was not on the ownership of the
code, it's all of the Cocoon project, but on how certain feature changes are
maken to the code without prior list discusions and on how certain remarks
on code quality are made without clarifications.

Nicola Ken Barozzi

RE: cvs commit: xml-cocoon/src/org/apache/cocoon Notification.jav a Notifier.java

[Jeremy Quinn <je...@media.demon.co.uk>]

At 15:07 -0600 24/09/00, Timm, Sean wrote:
>
>IF ANYONE THINKS MY CODE SUCKS...TELL ME IT SUCKS...BUT TELL ME WHY.

Me too !

Sorry Nicola, but I agree with Timm.
Please don't take offence, take the chance to learn :)

regards Jeremy
-- 
   ___________________________________________________________________

   Jeremy Quinn                                           Karma Divers
                                                       webSpace Design
                                            HyperMedia Research Centre

   <ma...@mac.com>     		 <http://www.media.demon.co.uk>
    <phone:+44.[0].20.7737.6831>        <pa...@sms.genie.co.uk>