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Posted to general@incubator.apache.org by Hani Suleiman <ha...@formicary.net> on 2006/06/23 06:52:51 UTC
Various
I'm fairly astounded by the amount of email generated due to my name
being on the initial committer list.
It is interesting to note that all the people who have objected are
those who feel personally offended by some of my writing
(specifically, the tomcat and axis2 rants...ironically my tomcat
DefaultServlet rant was purely technical and did not degenerate into
my usual personal insult comfort zone). I'm sorry that you can't take
a little criticism, and while I will happily admit that yes, I did
insult you in ways that you probably didn't quite expect, I fully
stand by everything I said, and will still insist that Axis2 and
Tomcat are awful projects, that are badly written and have only
gotten where they are today due to marketing forces, instead of
technical merit. I am perplexed that you feel that a dislike of an
Apache project merits a membership rejection though. Does everyone at
Apache love every project there? If that were the case, then the
whole ecosystem is in a far unhealthier state than anyone on the
outside might suspect.
If Apache people feel that my technical abilities are not relevant,
and that what should matter in whether I am allowed in as a cxfire
committer is how willing I am to tow the party line, then I shouldn't
be on that list. Apache would be the first organisation I've joined
(or might have joined) that did not judge me on technical merit;
quite an irony considering the whole meritocracy approach that Apache
claims. This is, astoundingly, my first experience of being judged
not on technical merit, but on random blathering that serves no
particular purpose than ranting for ranting's sake.
Just to set expectations, I will not stop saying things like 'Apache
sucks', because I still do think that many of the processes and
members have some terrible flaws. I am not aware of any Apache
membership requirements that state that one's freedom of speech and
expression are curtailed in any way; it is after all an alleged
meritocracy, all that matters is how good the code I check in is, and
how well I play within the team I'm a member of. If the cxfire team
at any point feels I'm a liability rather than an asset, I would
gladly leave. In fact I'd like to think that I'm self-aware enough to
leave way before they feel the need to ask me to. I know plenty of
Apache members who find many of the processes cumbersome and onerous,
yet are still active participants; nobody seems to threaten them with
being kicked out.
I believe in cxfire, and think it's a superb project. I think
competition in this space is healthy, and think it's rather lame that
people like dims and sanjiva keep trying to cast doubts on the
validity of the project, just because it happens to eat into their
projected revenues. It does feel like there's a small amount of
hypocrisy going around, where people express concern that cxfire has
many IONA people involved, without noticing that most of the
objectors are WSO2 people, who (quite rationally) put WSO2 priorities
ahead of Apache ones.
If there's a policy of only endorsing one technology for any given
field within Apache, then sure, cxfire does not belong. If there is
space for allowing competing technologies, then I fail to see why
xfire choosing to ignore axis2 or not support it has any relevant at
all as to whether it can live in Apache or not.
I always thought that despite all its flaws, Apache was a great
ground for the 'let a thousand flowers bloom' approach, and I am
frankly disturbed by how much say commercial interests seem to have
in whether projects get accepted or not. In many ways this thread has
left me with an even worse impression of Apache than I already had,
which is, believe or not, a very sad thing.
I'd like to think that Apache is a meritocracy, driven by technology,
with no allegiance to commercial interests. It is driven by the
concept of open source for the sake of open source; not open source
that we can now build a company around and get funding and piss
around with in order to make a living to avoid having a real job.
Certainly not the latter to the exclusion of the former! On that
basis, I cannot conceive of a single good reason for rejecting
cxfire. By all criteria that count, it's a successful project, it is
widely deployed, it has an active developer base, and an interested
and participatory community. So what if it happens to be technically
superior to Axis2 (at least, in most people's opinions), is that a
reason to reject it?
I apologise if I've offended anyone, that was certainly not my
intent, in this case. I also apologise for being blunt and
undiplomatic, but this thread was too silly and the issues raised too
pedantic for me not to stoop to the same level. To the sane people
who responded with sensible requests and criticisms, I sincerely
apologise, and hope you see my rather long discourse as an heartfelt
plea for sanity and objectivity, rather than dismissing it as the
ranting of a rather angry random java guy.
Regards,
Hani
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Re: Various
Posted by Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com>.
You clearly have no clue! Just as an example.
- Daniel Kulp from IONA is a Tuscany Committer. Which is a WS PMC
sponsored Incubator project
- Daniel Diephouse from Envoi working on XFire is a WS Committer as he
earned karma on the XmlSchema project.
FWW, Thanks for letting people see your true colors. Geir has always
told me that your blog is a Literary device. It's just abundantly
clear that it is a farce.
I'll let my actions speak for themselves rather than stoop to your level.
thanks,
dims
On 6/23/06, Hani Suleiman <ha...@formicary.net> wrote:
> I'm fairly astounded by the amount of email generated due to my name
> being on the initial committer list.
>
> It is interesting to note that all the people who have objected are
> those who feel personally offended by some of my writing
> (specifically, the tomcat and axis2 rants...ironically my tomcat
> DefaultServlet rant was purely technical and did not degenerate into
> my usual personal insult comfort zone). I'm sorry that you can't take
> a little criticism, and while I will happily admit that yes, I did
> insult you in ways that you probably didn't quite expect, I fully
> stand by everything I said, and will still insist that Axis2 and
> Tomcat are awful projects, that are badly written and have only
> gotten where they are today due to marketing forces, instead of
> technical merit. I am perplexed that you feel that a dislike of an
> Apache project merits a membership rejection though. Does everyone at
> Apache love every project there? If that were the case, then the
> whole ecosystem is in a far unhealthier state than anyone on the
> outside might suspect.
>
> If Apache people feel that my technical abilities are not relevant,
> and that what should matter in whether I am allowed in as a cxfire
> committer is how willing I am to tow the party line, then I shouldn't
> be on that list. Apache would be the first organisation I've joined
> (or might have joined) that did not judge me on technical merit;
> quite an irony considering the whole meritocracy approach that Apache
> claims. This is, astoundingly, my first experience of being judged
> not on technical merit, but on random blathering that serves no
> particular purpose than ranting for ranting's sake.
>
> Just to set expectations, I will not stop saying things like 'Apache
> sucks', because I still do think that many of the processes and
> members have some terrible flaws. I am not aware of any Apache
> membership requirements that state that one's freedom of speech and
> expression are curtailed in any way; it is after all an alleged
> meritocracy, all that matters is how good the code I check in is, and
> how well I play within the team I'm a member of. If the cxfire team
> at any point feels I'm a liability rather than an asset, I would
> gladly leave. In fact I'd like to think that I'm self-aware enough to
> leave way before they feel the need to ask me to. I know plenty of
> Apache members who find many of the processes cumbersome and onerous,
> yet are still active participants; nobody seems to threaten them with
> being kicked out.
>
> I believe in cxfire, and think it's a superb project. I think
> competition in this space is healthy, and think it's rather lame that
> people like dims and sanjiva keep trying to cast doubts on the
> validity of the project, just because it happens to eat into their
> projected revenues. It does feel like there's a small amount of
> hypocrisy going around, where people express concern that cxfire has
> many IONA people involved, without noticing that most of the
> objectors are WSO2 people, who (quite rationally) put WSO2 priorities
> ahead of Apache ones.
>
> If there's a policy of only endorsing one technology for any given
> field within Apache, then sure, cxfire does not belong. If there is
> space for allowing competing technologies, then I fail to see why
> xfire choosing to ignore axis2 or not support it has any relevant at
> all as to whether it can live in Apache or not.
>
> I always thought that despite all its flaws, Apache was a great
> ground for the 'let a thousand flowers bloom' approach, and I am
> frankly disturbed by how much say commercial interests seem to have
> in whether projects get accepted or not. In many ways this thread has
> left me with an even worse impression of Apache than I already had,
> which is, believe or not, a very sad thing.
>
> I'd like to think that Apache is a meritocracy, driven by technology,
> with no allegiance to commercial interests. It is driven by the
> concept of open source for the sake of open source; not open source
> that we can now build a company around and get funding and piss
> around with in order to make a living to avoid having a real job.
> Certainly not the latter to the exclusion of the former! On that
> basis, I cannot conceive of a single good reason for rejecting
> cxfire. By all criteria that count, it's a successful project, it is
> widely deployed, it has an active developer base, and an interested
> and participatory community. So what if it happens to be technically
> superior to Axis2 (at least, in most people's opinions), is that a
> reason to reject it?
>
> I apologise if I've offended anyone, that was certainly not my
> intent, in this case. I also apologise for being blunt and
> undiplomatic, but this thread was too silly and the issues raised too
> pedantic for me not to stoop to the same level. To the sane people
> who responded with sensible requests and criticisms, I sincerely
> apologise, and hope you see my rather long discourse as an heartfelt
> plea for sanity and objectivity, rather than dismissing it as the
> ranting of a rather angry random java guy.
>
> Regards,
> Hani
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
--
Davanum Srinivas : http://people.apache.org/~dims/
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Re: Various
Posted by "William A. Rowe, Jr." <wr...@rowe-clan.net>.
Hani Suleiman wrote:
> I'm fairly astounded by the amount of email generated due to my name
> being on the initial committer list.
>
> [...] I'm sorry that you can't take a little criticism,
> and while I will happily admit that yes, I did insult you in ways that
> you probably didn't quite expect, I fully stand by everything I said,
> and will still insist that Axis2 and Tomcat are awful projects
And I strongly believe that if that's what you had blogged, there really
would be no [legitimate] objections in this discussion.
> Apache would be the first organisation I've joined (or might have
> joined) that did not judge me on technical merit;
And technical merit, or debate on technical issues (like you identified
in your rants) is *entirely* the appropriate consideration.
But you have reread your blog entries a few times to recognize that you
-far- exceeded technical objections and ranting? If your blog entries are
any indication, you have no issue with lowering the conversation to the
level of personal assualts and attacks on individuals, instead of being
*appropriately* hot and bothered over technical issues and the resulting code.
Your flowerful adjectives aside, if you spoke to the code, and not the coders,
nobody would point to your blog and suggest 'hey, this really wouldn't be a
very good person to have participate here'.
We have had participants in the past who focus on persons instead of issues.
And these participants have consistently caused more damage to the code by
fracturing the community than they put out in effective LoC.
If rather than defending your right to say "Apache FOO Sucks" (which you have,
within or outside of the ASF) - if your email addresses the issue of this
apparent inability to decouple the code from the coders (who you effectively
slam), then perhaps some on this list will be reassured you can work within
a community and debate the message without killing the messenger?
This is not an issue of towing party lines, consistently nodding your head yes
like a robot, or even the ability to play nice. It is about a fundamental
respect for your fellow coders, even when you detest what they create.
Bill
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Re: Various
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>.
On Jun 23, 2006, at 12:52 AM, Hani Suleiman wrote:
>
> If Apache people feel that my technical abilities are not relevant,
> and that what should matter in whether I am allowed in as a cxfire
> committer is how willing I am to tow the party line, then I
> shouldn't be on that list. Apache would be the first organisation
> I've joined (or might have joined) that did not judge me on
> technical merit; quite an irony considering the whole meritocracy
> approach that Apache claims. This is, astoundingly, my first
> experience of being judged not on technical merit, but on random
> blathering that serves no particular purpose than ranting for
> ranting's sake.
>
To be honest, technical merit counts not a bit, if the
person is so disruptive to the community as to stagnate
or destroy the communal, collaborative nature central
to the ASF.
So, to be blunt, we would prefer someone with "adequate"
skills who gets along with people and works well
with people rather than a top-notch code monkey who is
a super prick.
And no, I'm not implying that you are one of those
at all. Just making a point.
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Re: Various
Posted by Sanjiva Weerawarana <sa...@opensource.lk>.
On Fri, 2006-06-23 at 05:52 +0100, Hani Suleiman wrote:
> It is interesting to note that all the people who have objected are
> those who feel personally offended by some of my writing
> (specifically, the tomcat and axis2 rants...ironically my tomcat
I was never personally offended by your rants. However, I was very
impressed by what it shows about you as a person.
> I'm sorry that you can't take
> a little criticism, and while I will happily admit that yes, I did
> insult you in ways that you probably didn't quite expect, I fully
> stand by everything I said, and will still insist that Axis2 and
> Tomcat are awful projects, that are badly written and have only
> gotten where they are today due to marketing forces, instead of
> technical merit.
Thanks for clarifying this- several people have said on this list that
your blog is simply a public persona and that you don't really believe
in what you write there.
Your statement shows that they don't know you as well as they thought
they did!
> I am perplexed that you feel that a dislike of an
> Apache project merits a membership rejection though. Does everyone at
> Apache love every project there? If that were the case, then the
> whole ecosystem is in a far unhealthier state than anyone on the
> outside might suspect.
Who said anything about loving every project? Apache is fundamentally
about communities and not about code. It doesn't matter whether I or any
other ASF person likes the technical rationale/motivation/aspects of the
project or not- as long as a healthy community exists for it then its a
great project from ASF's perspective. That project may produce software
for underwater basketweaving, but the ASF doesn't worry about the
technical merits of such software.
> I believe in cxfire, and think it's a superb project. I think
> competition in this space is healthy, and think it's rather lame that
> people like dims and sanjiva keep trying to cast doubts on the
> validity of the project, just because it happens to eat into their
> projected revenues.
Coming from a guy who loves to dish out criticism, how come you can't
take a bit of it?
The "casting doubt" was to understand what it is .. the proposal talks
about SOA etc. etc. and James, one of the mentors, says "SOA means
nothing" (paraphrased) and the different people give different
explanations of what it is. If the people who proposed the project don't
quite agree what it is, how do you expect to form a healthy community?
Here's what I wrote to James' explanation of what it is:
----
On Thu, 2006-06-22 at 17:30 +0200, James Strachan wrote:
>
> CeltixFire is aimed at implementing the JAX-WS/JAX-WSA/JSR-181
> standards which are the newer standards for working with SOAP &
> WS-Addressing on the Java platform
Thanks for the clarification. So its basically an alternate to Axis2 as
we are working on all these specs there too; which of course is cool ..
alternates are a good way to figure out different ways of skinning a cat
and eventually we'll find the right way (hopefully before the cat
dies ;-)).
----
Where is there anything there saying Apache doesn't accept alternatives?
Or where does it say that I objected to it?
If its an alternate to Axis2, then I'm glad to +1 it.
> It does feel like there's a small amount of
> hypocrisy going around, where people express concern that cxfire has
> many IONA people involved, without noticing that most of the
> objectors are WSO2 people, who (quite rationally) put WSO2 priorities
> ahead of Apache ones.
Instead of looking at where people are employed why don't you look at
what we do in Apache and why that gives us the credibility to ask these
questions?
I've been contributing to Apache since 1998, when I wrote the extension
code for Xalan, using then IBM BSF, which also I created. BSF is of
course now an Apache project. I was the one who created Apache SOAP
originally (along with Matt Duftler from my group in IBM). I've
participated in numerous WS projects and created the Axis2 effort long
before WSO2 was even conceived. I doubt you can find a *single* place
where I've let WSO2 priorities come in front of ASF ones.
Paul has been involved since about 2001, when the WSIF project was
donated to Apache by IBM. Paul is now a leading contributor to Synapse.
Dims has been around since I don't know when .. before me too I believe
(in Cocoon) and he is of course chair of the WS PMC, which is a position
he earned by his long and solid contributions to WS projects. Again, he
got to that position before WSO2 was ever conceived.
We have all *earned* the right to question what these new projects are
how they should or should not be brought into the ASF.
> If there's a policy of only endorsing one technology for any given
> field within Apache, then sure, cxfire does not belong. If there is
> space for allowing competing technologies, then I fail to see why
> xfire choosing to ignore axis2 or not support it has any relevant at
> all as to whether it can live in Apache or not.
Absolutely +1.
> I'd like to think that Apache is a meritocracy, driven by technology,
> with no allegiance to commercial interests.
Ah that's where you're mistaken- we're a meritocracy driven by people,
not by technology. Build a better community and the code will sort
itself out.
> It is driven by the
> concept of open source for the sake of open source; not open source
> that we can now build a company around and get funding and piss
> around with in order to make a living to avoid having a real job.
:)
> Certainly not the latter to the exclusion of the former! On that
> basis, I cannot conceive of a single good reason for rejecting
> cxfire. By all criteria that count, it's a successful project, it is
> widely deployed, it has an active developer base, and an interested
> and participatory community. So what if it happens to be technically
> superior to Axis2 (at least, in most people's opinions), is that a
> reason to reject it?
Why do you (appear to) assume this project is rejected?
Why did you convert this to a cxfire vs. axis2?
I said this already- if its an alternate to Axis2, +1 from me for
bringing it to Apache.
Is that what it is? You guys can't seem to make your own mind up! AFAICT
the Celtix guys don't see themselves as an alternative to Axis2 .. if it
is then say so.
I don't understand the big deal; the ASF does not have exactly one
implementation for one technology .. we're not a company.
> I apologise if I've offended anyone, that was certainly not my
> intent, in this case. I also apologise for being blunt and
> undiplomatic, but this thread was too silly and the issues raised too
> pedantic for me not to stoop to the same level. To the sane people
> who responded with sensible requests and criticisms, I sincerely
> apologise, and hope you see my rather long discourse as an heartfelt
> plea for sanity and objectivity, rather than dismissing it as the
> ranting of a rather angry random java guy.
Ah so all these WS-* guys who responded aren't sane? We know this space
dude, why don't you try answering the questions instead of going on a
personal attack?
I made a mistake in raising a concern about you publicly and I've
already apologized for it (to you even). So you have some right to
return the favor .. which I take this email as. I'd be perfectly happy
to convert this conversation to a technical discussion, which several
people claimed you're really good at and capable of.
So, can you answer the technical issues that have been raised without
attacking those who asked the questions and assuming that those
questions are motivated by trying to keep you guys out of the ASF? Jeez,
I'm *much* smarter than that Hani. And I even have the long hair to
prove it.
Sanjiva.
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Re: Various
Posted by Ian Holsman <li...@holsman.net>.
Hani.
I haven't read your bileblog, but this email really shows a bad
attitude.
I personally don't care how good your code is. in my past experience
your code isn't worth the pain the attitude is going to cause.
Technical merit is only aspect of apache, it's about the community.
and flamewars are so 90's it isn't funny.
as for party line, you don't have to tow anything.. you just need to
give other apache comitters / members some respect.
as for saying Apache Sucks.. go for it. just be constructive about it
(and be prepared to help un-suckify it.. any moron can say something
is bad)
--Ian
On 23/06/2006, at 2:52 PM, Hani Suleiman wrote:
> I'm fairly astounded by the amount of email generated due to my
> name being on the initial committer list.
>
> It is interesting to note that all the people who have objected are
> those who feel personally offended by some of my writing
> (specifically, the tomcat and axis2 rants...ironically my tomcat
> DefaultServlet rant was purely technical and did not degenerate
> into my usual personal insult comfort zone). I'm sorry that you
> can't take a little criticism, and while I will happily admit that
> yes, I did insult you in ways that you probably didn't quite
> expect, I fully stand by everything I said, and will still insist
> that Axis2 and Tomcat are awful projects, that are badly written
> and have only gotten where they are today due to marketing forces,
> instead of technical merit. I am perplexed that you feel that a
> dislike of an Apache project merits a membership rejection though.
> Does everyone at Apache love every project there? If that were the
> case, then the whole ecosystem is in a far unhealthier state than
> anyone on the outside might suspect.
>
> If Apache people feel that my technical abilities are not relevant,
> and that what should matter in whether I am allowed in as a cxfire
> committer is how willing I am to tow the party line, then I
> shouldn't be on that list. Apache would be the first organisation
> I've joined (or might have joined) that did not judge me on
> technical merit; quite an irony considering the whole meritocracy
> approach that Apache claims. This is, astoundingly, my first
> experience of being judged not on technical merit, but on random
> blathering that serves no particular purpose than ranting for
> ranting's sake.
>
> Just to set expectations, I will not stop saying things like
> 'Apache sucks', because I still do think that many of the processes
> and members have some terrible flaws. I am not aware of any Apache
> membership requirements that state that one's freedom of speech and
> expression are curtailed in any way; it is after all an alleged
> meritocracy, all that matters is how good the code I check in is,
> and how well I play within the team I'm a member of. If the cxfire
> team at any point feels I'm a liability rather than an asset, I
> would gladly leave. In fact I'd like to think that I'm self-aware
> enough to leave way before they feel the need to ask me to. I know
> plenty of Apache members who find many of the processes cumbersome
> and onerous, yet are still active participants; nobody seems to
> threaten them with being kicked out.
>
> I believe in cxfire, and think it's a superb project. I think
> competition in this space is healthy, and think it's rather lame
> that people like dims and sanjiva keep trying to cast doubts on the
> validity of the project, just because it happens to eat into their
> projected revenues. It does feel like there's a small amount of
> hypocrisy going around, where people express concern that cxfire
> has many IONA people involved, without noticing that most of the
> objectors are WSO2 people, who (quite rationally) put WSO2
> priorities ahead of Apache ones.
>
> If there's a policy of only endorsing one technology for any given
> field within Apache, then sure, cxfire does not belong. If there is
> space for allowing competing technologies, then I fail to see why
> xfire choosing to ignore axis2 or not support it has any relevant
> at all as to whether it can live in Apache or not.
>
> I always thought that despite all its flaws, Apache was a great
> ground for the 'let a thousand flowers bloom' approach, and I am
> frankly disturbed by how much say commercial interests seem to have
> in whether projects get accepted or not. In many ways this thread
> has left me with an even worse impression of Apache than I already
> had, which is, believe or not, a very sad thing.
>
> I'd like to think that Apache is a meritocracy, driven by
> technology, with no allegiance to commercial interests. It is
> driven by the concept of open source for the sake of open source;
> not open source that we can now build a company around and get
> funding and piss around with in order to make a living to avoid
> having a real job. Certainly not the latter to the exclusion of the
> former! On that basis, I cannot conceive of a single good reason
> for rejecting cxfire. By all criteria that count, it's a successful
> project, it is widely deployed, it has an active developer base,
> and an interested and participatory community. So what if it
> happens to be technically superior to Axis2 (at least, in most
> people's opinions), is that a reason to reject it?
>
> I apologise if I've offended anyone, that was certainly not my
> intent, in this case. I also apologise for being blunt and
> undiplomatic, but this thread was too silly and the issues raised
> too pedantic for me not to stoop to the same level. To the sane
> people who responded with sensible requests and criticisms, I
> sincerely apologise, and hope you see my rather long discourse as
> an heartfelt plea for sanity and objectivity, rather than
> dismissing it as the ranting of a rather angry random java guy.
>
> Regards,
> Hani
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
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Re: Various
Posted by "Roy T. Fielding" <fi...@gbiv.com>.
On Jun 22, 2006, at 9:52 PM, Hani Suleiman wrote:
> I'm fairly astounded by the amount of email generated due to my
> name being on the initial committer list.
I'm astonished that you didn't expect it. Apache is a social
organization
that depends on trust, and one of the easiest ways to lose trust is to
take on a persona that doesn't accept responsibility for your own
actions.
> It is interesting to note that all the people who have objected are
> those who feel personally offended by some of my writing
> (specifically, the tomcat and axis2 rants...ironically my tomcat
> DefaultServlet rant was purely technical and did not degenerate
> into my usual personal insult comfort zone).
I don't find your blog to be technical at all. It is mostly just
childish
whining, even when everything you say is accurate. It is not
constructive
criticism.
> I'm sorry that you can't take a little criticism, and while I will
> happily admit that yes, I did insult you in ways that you probably
> didn't quite expect, I fully stand by everything I said, and will
> still insist that Axis2 and Tomcat are awful projects, that are
> badly written and have only gotten where they are today due to
> marketing forces, instead of technical merit.
Then fix them or write a replacement. If you have time to entertain
yourself
on your blog, then you have time to fix the open source that you
dislike.
> I am perplexed that you feel that a dislike of an Apache project
> merits a membership rejection though. Does everyone at Apache love
> every project there? If that were the case, then the whole
> ecosystem is in a far unhealthier state than anyone on the outside
> might suspect.
We live on criticism -- constructive criticism, that is. You don't
seriously
think your blog is constructive, do you? No, we don't all love each
other's
projects and we encourage participants to rethink entire
architectures on a
regular basis. Anyone who actually participated in a project,
instead of
just whining from a distance, would know that.
> If Apache people feel that my technical abilities are not relevant,
> and that what should matter in whether I am allowed in as a cxfire
> committer is how willing I am to tow the party line, then I
> shouldn't be on that list. Apache would be the first organisation
> I've joined (or might have joined) that did not judge me on
> technical merit; quite an irony considering the whole meritocracy
> approach that Apache claims. This is, astoundingly, my first
> experience of being judged not on technical merit, but on random
> blathering that serves no particular purpose than ranting for
> ranting's sake.
Meritocracy is based on what you have earned, not on your potential
ability.
Right now you are one of the few individuals in the world with negative
Apache merit -- IMO, you cause more damage by your whining personal
insults
than you have contributed in your critiques as a user or developer.
In fact, the only person I can think of at the moment with more negative
Apache merit than you is Marc Fleury. Are you happy now?
That doesn't mean you can't turn that situation around, start
contributing
in a meaningful manner, and have a huge impact on future Apache
projects.
It just means you are in a hole right now and should expect to dig your
way out before getting much respect here. That is what asking to be a
committer is about -- gaining our respect so that we trust you to use
our
infrastructure for good purpose without damaging any of our projects.
> Just to set expectations, I will not stop saying things like
> 'Apache sucks', because I still do think that many of the processes
> and members have some terrible flaws.
Why don't you just suggest a patch to the process? Most of our
documentation needs improvement. Saying "Apache sucks" without actually
contributing just means you are too lame to do better.
Members, however, are human. If you think they have terrible flaws,
then
find ways to work around those flaws (or find a nice way to fix those
flaws, if possible). Apache is a collaboration and our processes are
designed to enable decisions to be made in spite of disagreement,
because
there will always be disagreement when faced with design trade-offs.
Learning that is part of being a contributor. If you want to be a whiny
little prick, then you don't need collaborators and we don't need you.
> I am not aware of any Apache membership requirements that state
> that one's freedom of speech and expression are curtailed in any
> way; it is after all an alleged meritocracy, all that matters is
> how good the code I check in is, and how well I play within the
> team I'm a member of. If the cxfire team at any point feels I'm a
> liability rather than an asset, I would gladly leave. In fact I'd
> like to think that I'm self-aware enough to leave way before they
> feel the need to ask me to.
Again, you seem to have no clue what meritocracy means at Apache.
People who have been offended by you are saying that they think you
will be a negative influence on the project based on your past behavior.
Don't give me any trite excuses that your "blog persona" is somehow
different from your behavior as a professional -- that is bullshit and
you know it. Everything we do is part of being professional. The
Internet is our workplace.
You are a human being. Your actions impact other human beings.
You will be held accountable for those actions whether or not you
accept responsibility for them. That's life.
Apache membership and project membership are two different things.
We do, frequently, accept project members who have been assholes in
the past. Sometimes that works out, sometimes it doesn't. I don't
think this case is any different and I expect some new project in
this space to be incubated if the contributors are willing, once
people figure out what is actually being contributed.
> I know plenty of Apache members who find many of the processes
> cumbersome and onerous, yet are still active participants; nobody
> seems to threaten them with being kicked out.
We don't need to. For one thing, they have earned our respect and
have the right to fix our processes. For another, they find out soon
enough that the processes exist to protect their own projects, and
they actually work when the shit hits the fan.
> I believe in cxfire, and think it's a superb project. I think
> competition in this space is healthy, and think it's rather lame
> that people like dims and sanjiva keep trying to cast doubts on the
> validity of the project, just because it happens to eat into their
> projected revenues. It does feel like there's a small amount of
> hypocrisy going around, where people express concern that cxfire
> has many IONA people involved, without noticing that most of the
> objectors are WSO2 people, who (quite rationally) put WSO2
> priorities ahead of Apache ones.
Being open and clear about company affiliations is a requirement for all
incubator proposals, due to past experience, and has nothing special
to do with IONA or WS02. We get tired of repeating that to the same
people, over and over. Hopefully, the docathon will result in better
documentation of the proposal process.
Sanjiva and Dims have already earned our respect. I happen to agree
with
you that competition is healthy, and I do wish that folks in the Web
Services
project would stop trying to fit all of web services into their own
project.
However, I also know them well enough to say that WS02 is not the cause
of their priorities, and all that they are trying to do is protect the
communal spirit of Apache projects. They do that because they've grown
to care about Apache as a whole, in *addition* to their personal work,
and because they are used to the Cocoon way of doing things at Apache.
Each Apache project picks up its own culture and beliefs, in addition
to those learned from the old projects, and each has its own perspective
on what makes for a productive collaboration.
You, OTOH, don't know them well enough to suggest anything about their
priorities. You are just behaving like a fool as a result and should
try to listen and learn before making it worse.
Obviously, everyone would prefer to have a perfect product. I do not
believe that any single such thing exists -- a product is only perfect
if it exactly fits the needs of a given set of consumers, and not all
consumers have the same needs. So, at best we can have many different
products in the same space, each with their own trade-offs to fit their
own target audience. We gain from our ability to cut and paste between
projects when it suits our interests. We need to accept that and
promote
it as a good thing, not disparage each other's projects just because we
don't understand their target audience.
....Roy
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Re: Various
Posted by Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@pobox.com>.
Craig McClanahan wrote:
> On 6/22/06, Hani Suleiman <ha...@formicary.net> wrote:
>>
>> I'm fairly astounded by the amount of email generated due to my name
>> being on the initial committer list.
>
>
> PS: Hani, will you *please* someday, just once, spell my name correctly so
> that Google can find your pearls of wisdom about me? :-)
>
Just for the record, here's the list I've accumulated :
Craig McLanalanahamabanahan
Craig Mcflanabanawanaflafla
Craig Mclanaflanapoopoo
Craig Mclanafanablahblahhan
Craig Mclalaflahwibble
Craig Mcflafla
Craig Mcclalalanasomethingortheother
Craig McBlahblah
Craig McFlaBlahlan
Craig McThingy
Craig Mcflaflaweewomjibberploppy
I'd be flattered, Craig :)
geir
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Re: Various
Posted by Jochen Wiedmann <jo...@gmail.com>.
Craig McClanahan wrote:
> PS: Hani, will you *please* someday, just once, spell my name correctly so
> that Google can find your pearls of wisdom about me? :-)
:-)
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Re: Various
Posted by Craig McClanahan <cr...@apache.org>.
On 6/22/06, Hani Suleiman <ha...@formicary.net> wrote:
>
> I'm fairly astounded by the amount of email generated due to my name
> being on the initial committer list.
FWIW, I've been the target of more than a few BileBlog comments ... but that
has nothing to do with whether I think Hani would be a good Apache committer
or not. Member is a different thing ... but sometimes we learn the most
from people who call us on our foibles and faults, rather than just
overlooking things because we are friends. And there have been *many* more
than a few Apache committers over the last six years that I'd prefer not to
deal with.
The opinions expressed in the BileBlog have nothing to do with whether Hani
is technically qualified to be a comimitter on an Apache project, and will
not have anything to do with how I view this particular proposal.
Craig
PS: Hani, will you *please* someday, just once, spell my name correctly so
that Google can find your pearls of wisdom about me? :-)
PPS: Ask Remy about DefaultServlet :-)
Re: Various
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>.
Hani writes:
> I'm fairly astounded by the amount of email generated due to my
> name being on the initial committer list.
>
> I am perplexed that you feel that a dislike of an Apache project
> merits a membership rejection though.
and
> I am not aware of any Apache membership requirements that state
> that one's freedom of speech and expression are curtailed in any way
Just to be clear: being a committer on a Incubated project or even
a "real" ASF project is totally and completely a different
beast than being a "member" of the ASF.
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Re: Various
Posted by Hani Suleiman <ha...@formicary.net>.
Hi Leo,
On Jun 23, 2006, at 10:41 AM, Leo Simons wrote:
> "The Apache projects are characterized by a collaborative,
> consensus based development process, an open and
> pragmatic software license, and a desire to create high quality
> software that leads the way in its field. We
> consider ourselves not simply a group of projects sharing a server,
> but rather a community of developers and
> users."
>
> Some of the keywords there relevant to this thread are "collaborative"
> and "community". We expect many simple things from each other such as
>
> * showing respect for your peers
> * making sure your e-mails to apache mailing lists are PG-13 and
> preferably suitable for all ages
> * not making unfounded assertions
> * never "flaming" other people, especially not in public
> * no trolling or flaming in general
>
Yep, and I think in every technical context (and by that I mean any
community I'm part of, whether it be the JCP, Opensymphony, a bunch
of java.net projects, and so on) I've always adhered to every single
one of these rules, or promptly apologised if I'd ever stepped over
the line. The only venue that's an exception to these rules of good
behaviour is my blog, and that will remain an exception.
I apologise if my email came off to harshly, that was certainly not
my intent. It was bourne out of frustration from (for the first time)
seeing people judge me based on a blog I write for fun, that is it in
any way tied or or relevant to what I do *professionally*. Perhaps I
should have been clearer when I said 'technical', and made it obvious
that it's not just about the code, or how good (or bad) of a
developer I am, it's about how I function in mailing lists, how I am
towards people asking for help, and whether I play nice in whatever
ecosystem I'm in. ALL those to me count as professional environments,
where unprofessional behaviour will be weeded out very quickly.
The bileblog is what it is, and will remain what it is. My behavior
in other situations similar to the current one (ie, being part of a
community) is what should be under scrutiny, not what I choose to do
in my spare time.
Anyway, as flattering it is to be the subject of so much attention, I
think it's more worthwhile to instead focus on cxfire and question
its merit, than on some random committer who does weird things in his
spare time!
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Re: Various
Posted by Leo Simons <ma...@leosimons.com>.
Hani,
(I'm a big BileBlog fan. I'm ever so upset that Geir always gets named
when it comes to Harmony while I and more importantly quite a few others
also pour lots of effort in too.
I did a lightning talk at ApacheCon Las Vegas titled "The ASF sucks".
I had 5 minutes, I could've gone on for 30. Lots of fun. I think most
people liked it. I'm a committer and member and things like that
around here. Most people around here appreciate some good roasting or
bile as much as the next person.)
On Fri, Jun 23, 2006 at 05:52:51AM +0100, Hani Suleiman wrote:
> I'm fairly astounded by the amount of email generated due to my name
> being on the initial committer list.
I would say I was a little surprised. This e-mail of yours is also a bit
of a surprise though.
Nevertheless. To respond to this actual email. www.apache.org says
"The Apache projects are characterized by a collaborative, consensus based development process, an open and
pragmatic software license, and a desire to create high quality software that leads the way in its field. We
consider ourselves not simply a group of projects sharing a server, but rather a community of developers and
users."
Some of the keywords there relevant to this thread are "collaborative"
and "community". We expect many simple things from each other such as
* showing respect for your peers
* making sure your e-mails to apache mailing lists are PG-13 and
preferably suitable for all ages
* not making unfounded assertions
* never "flaming" other people, especially not in public
* no trolling or flaming in general
Being frank and undiplomatic is fine. I'm frank and undiplomatic all the
time. Saying some piece of software is bad is fine (if backed up by
technical argument or reference). For example if I mention that I think
that SOAP is a bad idea in the first place (I do) and that I think that
all implementations of it today all have rather serious problems (for
example, scalability is simply still a joke. 50 than 3 requests per second
is still abonimable. I want 5000, and mind you, when running on my
laptop), that is fine.
But e-mails like this one basically do fit the 20-year-old textbook
definitions of "trolling" and "flaming" that the usenet people invented way
back. I won't bother picking it apart to point this out, I'm rather confident
you know exactly what I mean. Being frank and undiplomatic again, we don't
have all that many people around here who repeatedly display that kind of
behaviour on apache mailing lists, and that's not about to change.
Now, could we please get back to more interesting things?
LSD
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Re: Various
Posted by Jochen Wiedmann <jo...@gmail.com>.
Hani Suleiman wrote:
> Just to set expectations, I will not stop saying things like 'Apache
> sucks', because I still do think that many of the processes and members
> have some terrible flaws.
I do not think, that I'm gonna like Hani (one should not mismatch "telling
the truth" and impoliteness, they may be related sometimes, but they can
live without each other), but as long as his activities are within the
project, then I do think that it is up to the project to decide, whether
they want him as a committer or not.
The reason is simple: Within a certain boundary, a developers visibility
(and vision, for that matter), are restricted to the project. A developers
personal style may possibly harm the other developers, contributors, and
users, but then: It is up to them whether they can live with it or not. For
that matter, *they* are the community, and not Apache members, or developers
who live in another project.
Of course, there *is* a boundary. For example, one could not tolerate, if a
committer would knowingly violate other people's copyrights or abuse his
accounts. But such things aren't the subject of this discussion.
Look at it like this: If Hani's name weren't on the initial list of
committers, but he we coopted later, then the whole discussion would not
arise. And I cannot see, why we should distinguish between these cases.
Jochen
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