[PROPOSAL] Add commercial support page on website

[fpapon <fp...@apache.org>]

Hi,

After starting a first thread on this topic (https://lists.apache.org/thread/kkox33rhtjcdr5zztq3lzj7c5s7k9wsr), I would like to propose a PR:

https://github.com/apache/kafka-site/pull/577

The purpose of this proposal is to help users to find support for sla, training, consulting...whatever that is not provide by the community as, like we can already see in many ASF projects, no commercial support is provided by the foundation. I think it could help with the adoption and the growth of the project because the users
need commercial support for production issues.

If the community is agree about this idea and want to move forward, I just add one company in the PR but everybody can add some by providing a new PR to complete the list. If people want me to add other you can reply to this thread because it will be better to have several company at the first publication of the page.

Just provide the company-name and a short description of the service offer around Apache Kafka. The information must be factual and informational in nature and not be a marketing statement.

regards,

François

Re: [PROPOSAL] Add commercial support page on website

[fpapon <fp...@apache.org>]

Hi Chris,

I never said that the Apache Kafka community "has to" provide this kind 
of page and it's not an official policy of the ASF.

I just listed other projects to show that this is something that already 
exist so this is potentially something that could be good for the 
community of an ASF project.

My proposal is just to help the project to growth and to help users to 
find production support because this is not the purpose of the ASF.

If the PMC and members of the community are not agree and think this is 
a bad thing for the project, I'm ok with that and I will close my PR.

regards,

François

On 11/01/2024 20:56, Chris Egerton wrote:
> Hi François,
>
> Is it an official policy of the ASF that projects provide a listing of
> commercial support options for themselves? I understand that other projects
> have chosen to provide one, but this doesn't necessarily imply that all
> projects should do the same, and I can't say I find this point very
> convincing as a rebuttal to some of the good-faith concerns raised by the
> PMC and members of the community so far. However, if there's an official
> ASF stance on this topic, then I acknowledge that Apache Kafka should align
> with it.
>
> Best,
>
> Chris
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 11, 2024, 14:50 fpapon <fp...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi Justine,
>>
>> I'm not sure to see the difference between "happy users" and vendors
>> that advertise their products in some of the company list in the
>> "powered by" page.
>>
>> Btw, my initial purpose of my proposal was to help user to find support
>> for production stuff rather than searching in google.
>>
>> I don't think this is a bad thing because this is something that already
>> exist in many ASF projects like:
>>
>> https://hop.apache.org/community/commercial/
>> https://struts.apache.org/commercial-support.html
>> https://directory.apache.org/commercial-support.html
>> https://tomee.apache.org/commercial-support.html
>> https://plc4x.apache.org/users/commercial-support.html
>> https://camel.apache.org/community/support/
>> https://openmeetings.apache.org/commercial-support.html
>> https://guacamole.apache.org/support/
>>
>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/HADOOP2/Distributions+and+Commercial+Support
>> https://activemq.apache.org/supporthttps://karaf.apache.org/community.html
>> https://netbeans.apache.org/front/main/help/commercial-support/
>> https://royale.apache.org/royale-commercial-support/
>>
>> https://karaf.apache.org/community.html
>>
>> As I understand for now, the channel for users to find production
>> support is:
>>
>> - The mailing list (user@kafka.apache.org / dev@kafka.apache.org)
>>
>> - The official #kafka  ASF Slack channel (may be we can add it on the
>> website because I didn't find it in the website =>
>> https://kafka.apache.org/contact)
>>
>> - Search in google for commercial support only
>>
>> I can update my PR to mention only the 3 points above for the "get
>> support" page if people think that having a support page make sense.
>>
>> regards,
>>
>> François
>>
>> On 11/01/2024 19:34, Justine Olshan wrote:
>>> I think there is a difference between the "Powered by" page and a page
>> for
>>> vendors to advertise their products and services.
>>>
>>> The idea is that the companies on that page are "powered by" Kafka. They
>>> serve as examples of happy users of Kafka.
>>> I don't think it is meant only as a place just for those companies to
>>> advertise.
>>>
>>> I'm a little confused by
>>>
>>>> In this case, I'm ok to say that the commercial support section in the
>>> "Get support" is no need as we can use this page.
>>>
>>> If you plan to submit for this page, please include a description on how
>>> your company uses Kafka.
>>>
>>> I'm happy to hear other folks' opinions on this page as well.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Justine
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jan 11, 2024 at 8:57 AM fpapon <fp...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> About the vendors list and neutrality, what is the policy of the
>>>> "Powered by" page?
>>>>
>>>> https://kafka.apache.org/powered-by
>>>>
>>>> We can see company with logo, some are talking about their product
>>>> (Agoora), some are offering services (Instaclustr, Aiven), and we can
>>>> also see some that just put their logo and a link to their website
>>>> without any explanation (GoldmanSachs).
>>>>
>>>> So as I understand and after reading the text in the footer of this
>>>> page, every company can add themselves by providing a PR right?
>>>>
>>>> "Want to appear on this page?
>>>> Submit a pull request or send a quick description of your organization
>>>> and usage to the mailing list and we'll add you."
>>>>
>>>> In this case, I'm ok to say that the commercial support section in the
>>>> "Get support" is no need as we can use this page.
>>>>
>>>> regards,
>>>>
>>>> François
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 10/01/2024 19:03, Kenneth Eversole wrote:
>>>>> I agree with Divji here and to be more pointed. I worry that if we go
>>>> down
>>>>> the path of adding vendors to a list it comes off as supporting their
>>>>> product, not to mention could be a huge security risk for novice
>> users. I
>>>>> would rather this be a callout to other purely open source tooling,
>> such
>>>> as
>>>>> cruise control.
>>>>>
>>>>> Divji brings up good question
>>>>> 1.  What value does additional of this page bring to the users of
>> Apache
>>>>> Kafka?
>>>>>
>>>>> I think the community would be a better service to have a more
>>>> synchronous
>>>>> line of communication such as Slack/Discord and we call that out here.
>> It
>>>>> would be more inline with other major open source projects.
>>>>>
>>>>> ---
>>>>> Kenneth Eversole
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Jan 10, 2024 at 10:30 AM Divij Vaidya <divijvaidya13@gmail.com
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't see a need for this. What additional information does this
>>>> provide
>>>>>> over what can be found via a quick google search?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My primary concern is that we are getting in the business of listing
>>>>>> vendors in the project site which brings it's own complications
>> without
>>>>>> adding much additional value for users. In the spirit of being vendor
>>>>>> neutral, I would try to avoid this as much as possible.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, my question to you is:
>>>>>> 1. What value does additional of this page bring to the users of
>> Apache
>>>>>> Kafka?
>>>>>> 2. When a new PR is submitted to add a vendor, what criteria do we
>> have
>>>> to
>>>>>> decide whether to add them or not? If we keep a blanket criteria of
>>>>>> accepting all PRs, then we may end up in a situation where the llink
>>>>>> redirects to a phishing page or nefarious website. Hence, we might
>> have
>>>> to
>>>>>> at least perform some basic due diligence which adds overhead to the
>>>>>> resources of the community.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Divij Vaidya
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Jan 10, 2024 at 5:00 PM fpapon <fp...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> After starting a first thread on this topic (
>>>>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/kkox33rhtjcdr5zztq3lzj7c5s7k9wsr), I
>>>>>>> would like to propose a PR:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://github.com/apache/kafka-site/pull/577
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The purpose of this proposal is to help users to find support for
>> sla,
>>>>>>> training, consulting...whatever that is not provide by the community
>>>> as,
>>>>>>> like we can already see in many ASF projects, no commercial support
>> is
>>>>>>> provided by the foundation. I think it could help with the adoption
>> and
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> growth of the project because the users
>>>>>>> need commercial support for production issues.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If the community is agree about this idea and want to move forward, I
>>>>>> just
>>>>>>> add one company in the PR but everybody can add some by providing a
>> new
>>>>>> PR
>>>>>>> to complete the list. If people want me to add other you can reply to
>>>>>> this
>>>>>>> thread because it will be better to have several company at the first
>>>>>>> publication of the page.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Just provide the company-name and a short description of the service
>>>>>> offer
>>>>>>> around Apache Kafka. The information must be factual and
>> informational
>>>> in
>>>>>>> nature and not be a marketing statement.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> regards,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> François
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> --
>>>> François
>>>>
>>>>
>> --
>> --
>> François
>>
>>
-- 
--
François

Re: [PROPOSAL] Add commercial support page on website

[Francois Papon <fr...@openobject.fr>]

Hi Matthias,

Thank you for your feedback, it make sense. My proposal was to help user 
finding support but as you said, may be this is not the right way to 
address it.

regards,

François

On 13/01/2024 00:34, Matthias J. Sax wrote:
> François,
>
> thanks for starting this initiative. Personally, I don't think it's 
> necessarily harmful for the project to add such a new page, however, I 
> share the same concerns others raised already.
>
> I understand your motivation that people had issues finding commercial 
> support, but I am not sure we can address this issue that way. I am 
> also "worried" (for the lack of a better word) that the page might 
> become long an unwieldy. In the end, any freelancer/consultant 
> offering Kafka services would be able to get on the page, so we might 
> get hundreds of entries, what also makes it impossible for users to 
> find what they are looking for. Also, the services of different 
> companies might vary drastically; should users read all these 
> descriptions? I can also imagine that some companies offer their 
> services only in some countries/regions making it even harder for user 
> to find what they are looking for?
>
> Overall, it sounds more like a search optimization problem, and thus 
> it seems out-of-scope what we can solve. As I said, I am not strictly 
> against it, but I just don't see much value either.
>
>
> -Matthias
>
> On 1/11/24 12:55 PM, Francois Papon wrote:
>> Hi Justine,
>>
>> You're right, Kafka is a part of my business (training, consulting, 
>> architecture design, sla...) and most of the time, users/customers 
>> said that it was hard for them to find a commercial support (in 
>> France for my case) after searching on the Kafka website (Google 
>> didn't help them).
>>
>> As an ASF member and PMC of several ASF projects, I know that this 
>> kind of page exist so this is why I made this proposal for the Kafka 
>> project because I really think that it can help users.
>>
>> As you suggest, I can submit a PR to be added on the "powered by" page.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> François
>>
>> On 11/01/2024 21:00, Justine Olshan wrote:
>>> Hey François,
>>>
>>> My point was that the companies on that page use kafka as part of their
>>> business. If you use Kafka as part of your business feel free to 
>>> submit a
>>> PR to be added.
>>>
>>> I second Chris's point that other projects are not enough to require 
>>> Kafka
>>> having such a support page.
>>>
>>> Justine
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jan 11, 2024 at 11:57 AM Chris Egerton 
>>> <fe...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi François,
>>>>
>>>> Is it an official policy of the ASF that projects provide a listing of
>>>> commercial support options for themselves? I understand that other 
>>>> projects
>>>> have chosen to provide one, but this doesn't necessarily imply that 
>>>> all
>>>> projects should do the same, and I can't say I find this point very
>>>> convincing as a rebuttal to some of the good-faith concerns raised 
>>>> by the
>>>> PMC and members of the community so far. However, if there's an 
>>>> official
>>>> ASF stance on this topic, then I acknowledge that Apache Kafka 
>>>> should align
>>>> with it.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Chris
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Jan 11, 2024, 14:50 fpapon <fp...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Justine,
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not sure to see the difference between "happy users" and vendors
>>>>> that advertise their products in some of the company list in the
>>>>> "powered by" page.
>>>>>
>>>>> Btw, my initial purpose of my proposal was to help user to find 
>>>>> support
>>>>> for production stuff rather than searching in google.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't think this is a bad thing because this is something that 
>>>>> already
>>>>> exist in many ASF projects like:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://hop.apache.org/community/commercial/
>>>>> https://struts.apache.org/commercial-support.html
>>>>> https://directory.apache.org/commercial-support.html
>>>>> https://tomee.apache.org/commercial-support.html
>>>>> https://plc4x.apache.org/users/commercial-support.html
>>>>> https://camel.apache.org/community/support/
>>>>> https://openmeetings.apache.org/commercial-support.html
>>>>> https://guacamole.apache.org/support/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/HADOOP2/Distributions+and+Commercial+Support 
>>>>
>>>> https://activemq.apache.org/supporthttps://karaf.apache.org/community.html 
>>>>
>>>>> https://netbeans.apache.org/front/main/help/commercial-support/
>>>>> https://royale.apache.org/royale-commercial-support/
>>>>>
>>>>> https://karaf.apache.org/community.html
>>>>>
>>>>> As I understand for now, the channel for users to find production
>>>>> support is:
>>>>>
>>>>> - The mailing list (user@kafka.apache.org / dev@kafka.apache.org)
>>>>>
>>>>> - The official #kafka  ASF Slack channel (may be we can add it on the
>>>>> website because I didn't find it in the website =>
>>>>> https://kafka.apache.org/contact)
>>>>>
>>>>> - Search in google for commercial support only
>>>>>
>>>>> I can update my PR to mention only the 3 points above for the "get
>>>>> support" page if people think that having a support page make sense.
>>>>>
>>>>> regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> François
>>>>>
>>>>> On 11/01/2024 19:34, Justine Olshan wrote:
>>>>>> I think there is a difference between the "Powered by" page and a 
>>>>>> page
>>>>> for
>>>>>> vendors to advertise their products and services.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The idea is that the companies on that page are "powered by" Kafka.
>>>> They
>>>>>> serve as examples of happy users of Kafka.
>>>>>> I don't think it is meant only as a place just for those 
>>>>>> companies to
>>>>>> advertise.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm a little confused by
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In this case, I'm ok to say that the commercial support section 
>>>>>>> in the
>>>>>> "Get support" is no need as we can use this page.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you plan to submit for this page, please include a description on
>>>> how
>>>>>> your company uses Kafka.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm happy to hear other folks' opinions on this page as well.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> Justine
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Jan 11, 2024 at 8:57 AM fpapon <fp...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> About the vendors list and neutrality, what is the policy of the
>>>>>>> "Powered by" page?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://kafka.apache.org/powered-by
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We can see company with logo, some are talking about their product
>>>>>>> (Agoora), some are offering services (Instaclustr, Aiven), and 
>>>>>>> we can
>>>>>>> also see some that just put their logo and a link to their website
>>>>>>> without any explanation (GoldmanSachs).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So as I understand and after reading the text in the footer of this
>>>>>>> page, every company can add themselves by providing a PR right?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Want to appear on this page?
>>>>>>> Submit a pull request or send a quick description of your 
>>>>>>> organization
>>>>>>> and usage to the mailing list and we'll add you."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In this case, I'm ok to say that the commercial support section 
>>>>>>> in the
>>>>>>> "Get support" is no need as we can use this page.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> regards,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> François
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 10/01/2024 19:03, Kenneth Eversole wrote:
>>>>>>>> I agree with Divji here and to be more pointed. I worry that if 
>>>>>>>> we go
>>>>>>> down
>>>>>>>> the path of adding vendors to a list it comes off as supporting 
>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>> product, not to mention could be a huge security risk for novice
>>>>> users. I
>>>>>>>> would rather this be a callout to other purely open source 
>>>>>>>> tooling,
>>>>> such
>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>> cruise control.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Divji brings up good question
>>>>>>>> 1.  What value does additional of this page bring to the users of
>>>>> Apache
>>>>>>>> Kafka?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think the community would be a better service to have a more
>>>>>>> synchronous
>>>>>>>> line of communication such as Slack/Discord and we call that out
>>>> here.
>>>>> It
>>>>>>>> would be more inline with other major open source projects.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ---
>>>>>>>> Kenneth Eversole
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jan 10, 2024 at 10:30 AM Divij Vaidya <
>>>> divijvaidya13@gmail.com
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I don't see a need for this. What additional information does 
>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>> provide
>>>>>>>>> over what can be found via a quick google search?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> My primary concern is that we are getting in the business of 
>>>>>>>>> listing
>>>>>>>>> vendors in the project site which brings it's own complications
>>>>> without
>>>>>>>>> adding much additional value for users. In the spirit of being
>>>> vendor
>>>>>>>>> neutral, I would try to avoid this as much as possible.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So, my question to you is:
>>>>>>>>> 1. What value does additional of this page bring to the users of
>>>>> Apache
>>>>>>>>> Kafka?
>>>>>>>>> 2. When a new PR is submitted to add a vendor, what criteria 
>>>>>>>>> do we
>>>>> have
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> decide whether to add them or not? If we keep a blanket 
>>>>>>>>> criteria of
>>>>>>>>> accepting all PRs, then we may end up in a situation where the 
>>>>>>>>> llink
>>>>>>>>> redirects to a phishing page or nefarious website. Hence, we 
>>>>>>>>> might
>>>>> have
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> at least perform some basic due diligence which adds overhead 
>>>>>>>>> to the
>>>>>>>>> resources of the community.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>>> Divij Vaidya
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jan 10, 2024 at 5:00 PM fpapon <fp...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> After starting a first thread on this topic (
>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/kkox33rhtjcdr5zztq3lzj7c5s7k9wsr), 
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>> would like to propose a PR:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/apache/kafka-site/pull/577
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The purpose of this proposal is to help users to find support 
>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>> sla,
>>>>>>>>>> training, consulting...whatever that is not provide by the
>>>> community
>>>>>>> as,
>>>>>>>>>> like we can already see in many ASF projects, no commercial 
>>>>>>>>>> support
>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>> provided by the foundation. I think it could help with the 
>>>>>>>>>> adoption
>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> growth of the project because the users
>>>>>>>>>> need commercial support for production issues.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If the community is agree about this idea and want to move
>>>> forward, I
>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>> add one company in the PR but everybody can add some by 
>>>>>>>>>> providing a
>>>>> new
>>>>>>>>> PR
>>>>>>>>>> to complete the list. If people want me to add other you can 
>>>>>>>>>> reply
>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>> thread because it will be better to have several company at the
>>>> first
>>>>>>>>>> publication of the page.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Just provide the company-name and a short description of the
>>>> service
>>>>>>>>> offer
>>>>>>>>>> around Apache Kafka. The information must be factual and
>>>>> informational
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>> nature and not be a marketing statement.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> regards,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> François
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>> François
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> François
>>>>>
>>>>>

Re: [PROPOSAL] Add commercial support page on website

[Viktor Somogyi-Vass <vi...@cloudera.com.INVALID>]

Hi Romain,

Yes, you may be right that it's either everybody or nobody. Coming up with
any levels of entry is going to raise questions as we see :).
I wasn't aware that my idea might be against ASF guidelines as it is
somewhat based on its own sponsorship page (
https://www.apache.org/foundation/sponsors). Anyway, my point is moot if
it's not allowed by those guidelines.

Regarding your original suggestion, I'm not against it, although I am
worried about that it might get out of hand, however I also see that we
don't really have any means to anticipate if it does or not, so it might be
that the only way is to try it out if the community leans toward it.

Thanks,
Viktor


On Mon, Jan 15, 2024 at 4:15 PM Romain Manni-Bucau <rm...@apache.org>
wrote:

> Hi Viktor,
>
> Having a support page is ASF friendly and quite common for the reasons
> mentionned in the ticket and these threads and aim at helping end users.
>
> I saw that Matthias was afraid of the maintenance of such a page but I
> guess it costs nothing to merge François PR - or alike, accept the coming
> proposals for a few months and see after some period if it stays something
> moving a lot and if it becomes something the community can't handle - other
> projects kind of show it is not the case and some projects are way more
> used and supported than Kafka in terms of potential entries count - please
> don't take it as an offense it is just an history and scope point - so
> means they would have had the issue which is not what happent AFAIK.
>
> However please note that trying to promote cloudera, for example, because
> it contributes often to Kafka and reject Yupiik because it just takes the
> support side for now would be quite unfair on one side and strictly
> speaking this would be against ASF policy (you can reread
> https://www.apache.org/foundation/policies/conduct for example) so the
> question is quite simple for me: it is everybody or nobody and if you pick
> nobody, do you accept to make it harder for users to embrace Kafka (even if
> it would be ok from an ASF standpoint, the spirit would be more to enable
> that strictly speaking cause support is just part of the real life of such
> a complex project). I really take the "can be hard to handle" point
> seriously but trying that for 6 months or so does not cost much to the
> community and if at the end it helps some users it is only a win IMHO.
>
> So overall my 2cts would be to try based on other projects model and if it
> turns out Kafka is specific and it does not work for any reason, the page
> can be dropped quite easily.
>
> Wdyt?
>
> Best,
>
> On 2024/01/15 14:35:15 Viktor Somogyi-Vass wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I think that making and updating such a list implies tricky questions
> that
> > we have to deal with. Good examples were given by Matthias, that was my
> > first thought as well before reading his response.
> >
> > On the other hand I think it would be a good alternative to create a list
> > of companies that are either regular or meaningful contributors to the
> > project, provide other help such as testing infra or sponsors of the
> > project in other ways. This may present those companies who provide
> support
> > too and I think it'd be some appreciation as well to display them.
> >
> > What do you all think?
> >
> > Best,
> > Viktor
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Jan 15, 2024 at 10:08 AM Francois Papon <
> > francois.papon@openobject.fr> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Tison,
> > >
> > > Publishing a dedicated website for that can be a good idea, however if
> > > the link of the website could not be mention in the official Apache
> > > Kafka website I'm afraid that it will not be relevant.
> > >
> > > BTW, as I understand after all the feedback of the Apache Kafka PMC and
> > > community, my proposal is not a good idea for the project so I will
> > > close the PR.
> > >
> > > Thanks all for the feedback.
> > >
> > > regards,
> > >
> > > François
> > >
> > > On 14/01/2024 12:56, tison wrote:
> > > > FWIW - even if it's rejected by the Kafka PMC, you can maintain your
> > > > own page for such information and provide your personal comments on
> > > > them. If the object is to provide information and help users to make
> > > > decisions, it should help. Although you should do the SEO by
> yourself,
> > > > if the information is somehow neutral and valuable, you can ask the
> > > > @apachekafka Twitter (X) account to propagate it and provide a blog
> > > > for Kafka blogs.
> > > >
> > > > This is the common way how third-party "evangelist" producing content
> > > > and get it promoted.
> > > >
> > > > Best,
> > > > tison.
> > > >
> > > > Matthias J. Sax <mj...@apache.org> 于2024年1月13日周六 07:35写道：
> > > >> François,
> > > >>
> > > >> thanks for starting this initiative. Personally, I don't think it's
> > > >> necessarily harmful for the project to add such a new page,
> however, I
> > > >> share the same concerns others raised already.
> > > >>
> > > >> I understand your motivation that people had issues finding
> commercial
> > > >> support, but I am not sure we can address this issue that way. I am
> also
> > > >> "worried" (for the lack of a better word) that the page might become
> > > >> long an unwieldy. In the end, any freelancer/consultant offering
> Kafka
> > > >> services would be able to get on the page, so we might get hundreds
> of
> > > >> entries, what also makes it impossible for users to find what they
> are
> > > >> looking for. Also, the services of different companies might vary
> > > >> drastically; should users read all these descriptions? I can also
> > > >> imagine that some companies offer their services only in some
> > > >> countries/regions making it even harder for user to find what they
> are
> > > >> looking for?
> > > >>
> > > >> Overall, it sounds more like a search optimization problem, and
> thus it
> > > >> seems out-of-scope what we can solve. As I said, I am not strictly
> > > >> against it, but I just don't see much value either.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> -Matthias
> > > >>
> > > >> On 1/11/24 12:55 PM, Francois Papon wrote:
> > > >>> Hi Justine,
> > > >>>
> > > >>> You're right, Kafka is a part of my business (training, consulting,
> > > >>> architecture design, sla...) and most of the time, users/customers
> said
> > > >>> that it was hard for them to find a commercial support (in France
> for
> > > my
> > > >>> case) after searching on the Kafka website (Google didn't help
> them).
> > > >>>
> > > >>> As an ASF member and PMC of several ASF projects, I know that this
> kind
> > > >>> of page exist so this is why I made this proposal for the Kafka
> project
> > > >>> because I really think that it can help users.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> As you suggest, I can submit a PR to be added on the "powered by"
> page.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Thanks,
> > > >>>
> > > >>> François
> > > >>>
> > > >>> On 11/01/2024 21:00, Justine Olshan wrote:
> > > >>>> Hey François,
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> My point was that the companies on that page use kafka as part of
> > > their
> > > >>>> business. If you use Kafka as part of your business feel free to
> > > submit a
> > > >>>> PR to be added.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> I second Chris's point that other projects are not enough to
> require
> > > >>>> Kafka
> > > >>>> having such a support page.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Justine
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> On Thu, Jan 11, 2024 at 11:57 AM Chris Egerton <
> > > fearthecellos@gmail.com>
> > > >>>> wrote:
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>> Hi François,
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Is it an official policy of the ASF that projects provide a
> listing
> > > of
> > > >>>>> commercial support options for themselves? I understand that
> other
> > > >>>>> projects
> > > >>>>> have chosen to provide one, but this doesn't necessarily imply
> that
> > > all
> > > >>>>> projects should do the same, and I can't say I find this point
> very
> > > >>>>> convincing as a rebuttal to some of the good-faith concerns
> raised by
> > > >>>>> the
> > > >>>>> PMC and members of the community so far. However, if there's an
> > > official
> > > >>>>> ASF stance on this topic, then I acknowledge that Apache Kafka
> should
> > > >>>>> align
> > > >>>>> with it.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Best,
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Chris
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> On Thu, Jan 11, 2024, 14:50 fpapon <fp...@apache.org> wrote:
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Hi Justine,
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> I'm not sure to see the difference between "happy users" and
> vendors
> > > >>>>>> that advertise their products in some of the company list in the
> > > >>>>>> "powered by" page.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Btw, my initial purpose of my proposal was to help user to find
> > > support
> > > >>>>>> for production stuff rather than searching in google.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> I don't think this is a bad thing because this is something that
> > > >>>>>> already
> > > >>>>>> exist in many ASF projects like:
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> https://hop.apache.org/community/commercial/
> > > >>>>>> https://struts.apache.org/commercial-support.html
> > > >>>>>> https://directory.apache.org/commercial-support.html
> > > >>>>>> https://tomee.apache.org/commercial-support.html
> > > >>>>>> https://plc4x.apache.org/users/commercial-support.html
> > > >>>>>> https://camel.apache.org/community/support/
> > > >>>>>> https://openmeetings.apache.org/commercial-support.html
> > > >>>>>> https://guacamole.apache.org/support/
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > >
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/HADOOP2/Distributions+and+Commercial+Support
> > > >>>>>
> > >
> https://activemq.apache.org/supporthttps://karaf.apache.org/community.html
> > > >>>>>> https://netbeans.apache.org/front/main/help/commercial-support/
> > > >>>>>> https://royale.apache.org/royale-commercial-support/
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> https://karaf.apache.org/community.html
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> As I understand for now, the channel for users to find
> production
> > > >>>>>> support is:
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> - The mailing list (user@kafka.apache.org /
> dev@kafka.apache.org)
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> - The official #kafka  ASF Slack channel (may be we can add it
> on
> > > the
> > > >>>>>> website because I didn't find it in the website =>
> > > >>>>>> https://kafka.apache.org/contact)
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> - Search in google for commercial support only
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> I can update my PR to mention only the 3 points above for the
> "get
> > > >>>>>> support" page if people think that having a support page make
> sense.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> regards,
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> François
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> On 11/01/2024 19:34, Justine Olshan wrote:
> > > >>>>>>> I think there is a difference between the "Powered by" page
> and a
> > > page
> > > >>>>>> for
> > > >>>>>>> vendors to advertise their products and services.
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> The idea is that the companies on that page are "powered by"
> Kafka.
> > > >>>>> They
> > > >>>>>>> serve as examples of happy users of Kafka.
> > > >>>>>>> I don't think it is meant only as a place just for those
> companies
> > > to
> > > >>>>>>> advertise.
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> I'm a little confused by
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> In this case, I'm ok to say that the commercial support
> section in
> > > >>>>>>>> the
> > > >>>>>>> "Get support" is no need as we can use this page.
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> If you plan to submit for this page, please include a
> description
> > > on
> > > >>>>> how
> > > >>>>>>> your company uses Kafka.
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> I'm happy to hear other folks' opinions on this page as well.
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> Thanks,
> > > >>>>>>> Justine
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> On Thu, Jan 11, 2024 at 8:57 AM fpapon <fp...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> Hi,
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> About the vendors list and neutrality, what is the policy of
> the
> > > >>>>>>>> "Powered by" page?
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> https://kafka.apache.org/powered-by
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> We can see company with logo, some are talking about their
> product
> > > >>>>>>>> (Agoora), some are offering services (Instaclustr, Aiven),
> and we
> > > can
> > > >>>>>>>> also see some that just put their logo and a link to their
> website
> > > >>>>>>>> without any explanation (GoldmanSachs).
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> So as I understand and after reading the text in the footer of
> > > this
> > > >>>>>>>> page, every company can add themselves by providing a PR
> right?
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> "Want to appear on this page?
> > > >>>>>>>> Submit a pull request or send a quick description of your
> > > >>>>>>>> organization
> > > >>>>>>>> and usage to the mailing list and we'll add you."
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> In this case, I'm ok to say that the commercial support
> section in
> > > >>>>>>>> the
> > > >>>>>>>> "Get support" is no need as we can use this page.
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> regards,
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> François
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> On 10/01/2024 19:03, Kenneth Eversole wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>>> I agree with Divji here and to be more pointed. I worry that
> if
> > > >>>>>>>>> we go
> > > >>>>>>>> down
> > > >>>>>>>>> the path of adding vendors to a list it comes off as
> supporting
> > > >>>>>>>>> their
> > > >>>>>>>>> product, not to mention could be a huge security risk for
> novice
> > > >>>>>> users. I
> > > >>>>>>>>> would rather this be a callout to other purely open source
> > > tooling,
> > > >>>>>> such
> > > >>>>>>>> as
> > > >>>>>>>>> cruise control.
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> Divji brings up good question
> > > >>>>>>>>> 1.  What value does additional of this page bring to the
> users of
> > > >>>>>> Apache
> > > >>>>>>>>> Kafka?
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> I think the community would be a better service to have a
> more
> > > >>>>>>>> synchronous
> > > >>>>>>>>> line of communication such as Slack/Discord and we call that
> out
> > > >>>>> here.
> > > >>>>>> It
> > > >>>>>>>>> would be more inline with other major open source projects.
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> ---
> > > >>>>>>>>> Kenneth Eversole
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jan 10, 2024 at 10:30 AM Divij Vaidya <
> > > >>>>> divijvaidya13@gmail.com
> > > >>>>>>>>> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> I don't see a need for this. What additional information
> does
> > > this
> > > >>>>>>>> provide
> > > >>>>>>>>>> over what can be found via a quick google search?
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> My primary concern is that we are getting in the business of
> > > >>>>>>>>>> listing
> > > >>>>>>>>>> vendors in the project site which brings it's own
> complications
> > > >>>>>> without
> > > >>>>>>>>>> adding much additional value for users. In the spirit of
> being
> > > >>>>> vendor
> > > >>>>>>>>>> neutral, I would try to avoid this as much as possible.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> So, my question to you is:
> > > >>>>>>>>>> 1. What value does additional of this page bring to the
> users of
> > > >>>>>> Apache
> > > >>>>>>>>>> Kafka?
> > > >>>>>>>>>> 2. When a new PR is submitted to add a vendor, what
> criteria do
> > > we
> > > >>>>>> have
> > > >>>>>>>> to
> > > >>>>>>>>>> decide whether to add them or not? If we keep a blanket
> > > criteria of
> > > >>>>>>>>>> accepting all PRs, then we may end up in a situation where
> the
> > > >>>>>>>>>> llink
> > > >>>>>>>>>> redirects to a phishing page or nefarious website. Hence, we
> > > might
> > > >>>>>> have
> > > >>>>>>>> to
> > > >>>>>>>>>> at least perform some basic due diligence which adds
> overhead to
> > > >>>>>>>>>> the
> > > >>>>>>>>>> resources of the community.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> --
> > > >>>>>>>>>> Divij Vaidya
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jan 10, 2024 at 5:00 PM fpapon <fp...@apache.org>
> > > wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> After starting a first thread on this topic (
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > https://lists.apache.org/thread/kkox33rhtjcdr5zztq3lzj7c5s7k9wsr),
> > > >>>>> I
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> would like to propose a PR:
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/apache/kafka-site/pull/577
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> The purpose of this proposal is to help users to find
> support
> > > for
> > > >>>>>> sla,
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> training, consulting...whatever that is not provide by the
> > > >>>>> community
> > > >>>>>>>> as,
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> like we can already see in many ASF projects, no commercial
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> support
> > > >>>>>> is
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> provided by the foundation. I think it could help with the
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> adoption
> > > >>>>>> and
> > > >>>>>>>>>> the
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> growth of the project because the users
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> need commercial support for production issues.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> If the community is agree about this idea and want to move
> > > >>>>> forward, I
> > > >>>>>>>>>> just
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> add one company in the PR but everybody can add some by
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> providing a
> > > >>>>>> new
> > > >>>>>>>>>> PR
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> to complete the list. If people want me to add other you
> can
> > > reply
> > > >>>>> to
> > > >>>>>>>>>> this
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> thread because it will be better to have several company
> at the
> > > >>>>> first
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> publication of the page.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> Just provide the company-name and a short description of
> the
> > > >>>>> service
> > > >>>>>>>>>> offer
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> around Apache Kafka. The information must be factual and
> > > >>>>>> informational
> > > >>>>>>>> in
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> nature and not be a marketing statement.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> regards,
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> François
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> --
> > > >>>>>>>> --
> > > >>>>>>>> François
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> --
> > > >>>>>> --
> > > >>>>>> François
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > >
> >
>

Re: [PROPOSAL] Add commercial support page on website

[Romain Manni-Bucau <rm...@apache.org>]

Hi Viktor,

Having a support page is ASF friendly and quite common for the reasons mentionned in the ticket and these threads and aim at helping end users.

I saw that Matthias was afraid of the maintenance of such a page but I guess it costs nothing to merge François PR - or alike, accept the coming proposals for a few months and see after some period if it stays something moving a lot and if it becomes something the community can't handle - other projects kind of show it is not the case and some projects are way more used and supported than Kafka in terms of potential entries count - please don't take it as an offense it is just an history and scope point - so means they would have had the issue which is not what happent AFAIK.

However please note that trying to promote cloudera, for example, because it contributes often to Kafka and reject Yupiik because it just takes the support side for now would be quite unfair on one side and strictly speaking this would be against ASF policy (you can reread https://www.apache.org/foundation/policies/conduct for example) so the question is quite simple for me: it is everybody or nobody and if you pick nobody, do you accept to make it harder for users to embrace Kafka (even if it would be ok from an ASF standpoint, the spirit would be more to enable that strictly speaking cause support is just part of the real life of such a complex project). I really take the "can be hard to handle" point seriously but trying that for 6 months or so does not cost much to the community and if at the end it helps some users it is only a win IMHO.

So overall my 2cts would be to try based on other projects model and if it turns out Kafka is specific and it does not work for any reason, the page can be dropped quite easily.

Wdyt?

Best,

On 2024/01/15 14:35:15 Viktor Somogyi-Vass wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> I think that making and updating such a list implies tricky questions that
> we have to deal with. Good examples were given by Matthias, that was my
> first thought as well before reading his response.
> 
> On the other hand I think it would be a good alternative to create a list
> of companies that are either regular or meaningful contributors to the
> project, provide other help such as testing infra or sponsors of the
> project in other ways. This may present those companies who provide support
> too and I think it'd be some appreciation as well to display them.
> 
> What do you all think?
> 
> Best,
> Viktor
> 
> 
> On Mon, Jan 15, 2024 at 10:08 AM Francois Papon <
> francois.papon@openobject.fr> wrote:
> 
> > Hi Tison,
> >
> > Publishing a dedicated website for that can be a good idea, however if
> > the link of the website could not be mention in the official Apache
> > Kafka website I'm afraid that it will not be relevant.
> >
> > BTW, as I understand after all the feedback of the Apache Kafka PMC and
> > community, my proposal is not a good idea for the project so I will
> > close the PR.
> >
> > Thanks all for the feedback.
> >
> > regards,
> >
> > François
> >
> > On 14/01/2024 12:56, tison wrote:
> > > FWIW - even if it's rejected by the Kafka PMC, you can maintain your
> > > own page for such information and provide your personal comments on
> > > them. If the object is to provide information and help users to make
> > > decisions, it should help. Although you should do the SEO by yourself,
> > > if the information is somehow neutral and valuable, you can ask the
> > > @apachekafka Twitter (X) account to propagate it and provide a blog
> > > for Kafka blogs.
> > >
> > > This is the common way how third-party "evangelist" producing content
> > > and get it promoted.
> > >
> > > Best,
> > > tison.
> > >
> > > Matthias J. Sax <mj...@apache.org> 于2024年1月13日周六 07:35写道：
> > >> François,
> > >>
> > >> thanks for starting this initiative. Personally, I don't think it's
> > >> necessarily harmful for the project to add such a new page, however, I
> > >> share the same concerns others raised already.
> > >>
> > >> I understand your motivation that people had issues finding commercial
> > >> support, but I am not sure we can address this issue that way. I am also
> > >> "worried" (for the lack of a better word) that the page might become
> > >> long an unwieldy. In the end, any freelancer/consultant offering Kafka
> > >> services would be able to get on the page, so we might get hundreds of
> > >> entries, what also makes it impossible for users to find what they are
> > >> looking for. Also, the services of different companies might vary
> > >> drastically; should users read all these descriptions? I can also
> > >> imagine that some companies offer their services only in some
> > >> countries/regions making it even harder for user to find what they are
> > >> looking for?
> > >>
> > >> Overall, it sounds more like a search optimization problem, and thus it
> > >> seems out-of-scope what we can solve. As I said, I am not strictly
> > >> against it, but I just don't see much value either.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> -Matthias
> > >>
> > >> On 1/11/24 12:55 PM, Francois Papon wrote:
> > >>> Hi Justine,
> > >>>
> > >>> You're right, Kafka is a part of my business (training, consulting,
> > >>> architecture design, sla...) and most of the time, users/customers said
> > >>> that it was hard for them to find a commercial support (in France for
> > my
> > >>> case) after searching on the Kafka website (Google didn't help them).
> > >>>
> > >>> As an ASF member and PMC of several ASF projects, I know that this kind
> > >>> of page exist so this is why I made this proposal for the Kafka project
> > >>> because I really think that it can help users.
> > >>>
> > >>> As you suggest, I can submit a PR to be added on the "powered by" page.
> > >>>
> > >>> Thanks,
> > >>>
> > >>> François
> > >>>
> > >>> On 11/01/2024 21:00, Justine Olshan wrote:
> > >>>> Hey François,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> My point was that the companies on that page use kafka as part of
> > their
> > >>>> business. If you use Kafka as part of your business feel free to
> > submit a
> > >>>> PR to be added.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I second Chris's point that other projects are not enough to require
> > >>>> Kafka
> > >>>> having such a support page.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Justine
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On Thu, Jan 11, 2024 at 11:57 AM Chris Egerton <
> > fearthecellos@gmail.com>
> > >>>> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> Hi François,
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Is it an official policy of the ASF that projects provide a listing
> > of
> > >>>>> commercial support options for themselves? I understand that other
> > >>>>> projects
> > >>>>> have chosen to provide one, but this doesn't necessarily imply that
> > all
> > >>>>> projects should do the same, and I can't say I find this point very
> > >>>>> convincing as a rebuttal to some of the good-faith concerns raised by
> > >>>>> the
> > >>>>> PMC and members of the community so far. However, if there's an
> > official
> > >>>>> ASF stance on this topic, then I acknowledge that Apache Kafka should
> > >>>>> align
> > >>>>> with it.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Best,
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Chris
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> On Thu, Jan 11, 2024, 14:50 fpapon <fp...@apache.org> wrote:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> Hi Justine,
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> I'm not sure to see the difference between "happy users" and vendors
> > >>>>>> that advertise their products in some of the company list in the
> > >>>>>> "powered by" page.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Btw, my initial purpose of my proposal was to help user to find
> > support
> > >>>>>> for production stuff rather than searching in google.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> I don't think this is a bad thing because this is something that
> > >>>>>> already
> > >>>>>> exist in many ASF projects like:
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> https://hop.apache.org/community/commercial/
> > >>>>>> https://struts.apache.org/commercial-support.html
> > >>>>>> https://directory.apache.org/commercial-support.html
> > >>>>>> https://tomee.apache.org/commercial-support.html
> > >>>>>> https://plc4x.apache.org/users/commercial-support.html
> > >>>>>> https://camel.apache.org/community/support/
> > >>>>>> https://openmeetings.apache.org/commercial-support.html
> > >>>>>> https://guacamole.apache.org/support/
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/HADOOP2/Distributions+and+Commercial+Support
> > >>>>>
> > https://activemq.apache.org/supporthttps://karaf.apache.org/community.html
> > >>>>>> https://netbeans.apache.org/front/main/help/commercial-support/
> > >>>>>> https://royale.apache.org/royale-commercial-support/
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> https://karaf.apache.org/community.html
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> As I understand for now, the channel for users to find production
> > >>>>>> support is:
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> - The mailing list (user@kafka.apache.org / dev@kafka.apache.org)
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> - The official #kafka  ASF Slack channel (may be we can add it on
> > the
> > >>>>>> website because I didn't find it in the website =>
> > >>>>>> https://kafka.apache.org/contact)
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> - Search in google for commercial support only
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> I can update my PR to mention only the 3 points above for the "get
> > >>>>>> support" page if people think that having a support page make sense.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> regards,
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> François
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> On 11/01/2024 19:34, Justine Olshan wrote:
> > >>>>>>> I think there is a difference between the "Powered by" page and a
> > page
> > >>>>>> for
> > >>>>>>> vendors to advertise their products and services.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> The idea is that the companies on that page are "powered by" Kafka.
> > >>>>> They
> > >>>>>>> serve as examples of happy users of Kafka.
> > >>>>>>> I don't think it is meant only as a place just for those companies
> > to
> > >>>>>>> advertise.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> I'm a little confused by
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> In this case, I'm ok to say that the commercial support section in
> > >>>>>>>> the
> > >>>>>>> "Get support" is no need as we can use this page.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> If you plan to submit for this page, please include a description
> > on
> > >>>>> how
> > >>>>>>> your company uses Kafka.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> I'm happy to hear other folks' opinions on this page as well.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Thanks,
> > >>>>>>> Justine
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> On Thu, Jan 11, 2024 at 8:57 AM fpapon <fp...@apache.org> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Hi,
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> About the vendors list and neutrality, what is the policy of the
> > >>>>>>>> "Powered by" page?
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> https://kafka.apache.org/powered-by
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> We can see company with logo, some are talking about their product
> > >>>>>>>> (Agoora), some are offering services (Instaclustr, Aiven), and we
> > can
> > >>>>>>>> also see some that just put their logo and a link to their website
> > >>>>>>>> without any explanation (GoldmanSachs).
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> So as I understand and after reading the text in the footer of
> > this
> > >>>>>>>> page, every company can add themselves by providing a PR right?
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> "Want to appear on this page?
> > >>>>>>>> Submit a pull request or send a quick description of your
> > >>>>>>>> organization
> > >>>>>>>> and usage to the mailing list and we'll add you."
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> In this case, I'm ok to say that the commercial support section in
> > >>>>>>>> the
> > >>>>>>>> "Get support" is no need as we can use this page.
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> regards,
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> François
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> On 10/01/2024 19:03, Kenneth Eversole wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>> I agree with Divji here and to be more pointed. I worry that if
> > >>>>>>>>> we go
> > >>>>>>>> down
> > >>>>>>>>> the path of adding vendors to a list it comes off as supporting
> > >>>>>>>>> their
> > >>>>>>>>> product, not to mention could be a huge security risk for novice
> > >>>>>> users. I
> > >>>>>>>>> would rather this be a callout to other purely open source
> > tooling,
> > >>>>>> such
> > >>>>>>>> as
> > >>>>>>>>> cruise control.
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> Divji brings up good question
> > >>>>>>>>> 1.  What value does additional of this page bring to the users of
> > >>>>>> Apache
> > >>>>>>>>> Kafka?
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> I think the community would be a better service to have a more
> > >>>>>>>> synchronous
> > >>>>>>>>> line of communication such as Slack/Discord and we call that out
> > >>>>> here.
> > >>>>>> It
> > >>>>>>>>> would be more inline with other major open source projects.
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> ---
> > >>>>>>>>> Kenneth Eversole
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jan 10, 2024 at 10:30 AM Divij Vaidya <
> > >>>>> divijvaidya13@gmail.com
> > >>>>>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> I don't see a need for this. What additional information does
> > this
> > >>>>>>>> provide
> > >>>>>>>>>> over what can be found via a quick google search?
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> My primary concern is that we are getting in the business of
> > >>>>>>>>>> listing
> > >>>>>>>>>> vendors in the project site which brings it's own complications
> > >>>>>> without
> > >>>>>>>>>> adding much additional value for users. In the spirit of being
> > >>>>> vendor
> > >>>>>>>>>> neutral, I would try to avoid this as much as possible.
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> So, my question to you is:
> > >>>>>>>>>> 1. What value does additional of this page bring to the users of
> > >>>>>> Apache
> > >>>>>>>>>> Kafka?
> > >>>>>>>>>> 2. When a new PR is submitted to add a vendor, what criteria do
> > we
> > >>>>>> have
> > >>>>>>>> to
> > >>>>>>>>>> decide whether to add them or not? If we keep a blanket
> > criteria of
> > >>>>>>>>>> accepting all PRs, then we may end up in a situation where the
> > >>>>>>>>>> llink
> > >>>>>>>>>> redirects to a phishing page or nefarious website. Hence, we
> > might
> > >>>>>> have
> > >>>>>>>> to
> > >>>>>>>>>> at least perform some basic due diligence which adds overhead to
> > >>>>>>>>>> the
> > >>>>>>>>>> resources of the community.
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> --
> > >>>>>>>>>> Divij Vaidya
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jan 10, 2024 at 5:00 PM fpapon <fp...@apache.org>
> > wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> After starting a first thread on this topic (
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/kkox33rhtjcdr5zztq3lzj7c5s7k9wsr),
> > >>>>> I
> > >>>>>>>>>>> would like to propose a PR:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/apache/kafka-site/pull/577
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> The purpose of this proposal is to help users to find support
> > for
> > >>>>>> sla,
> > >>>>>>>>>>> training, consulting...whatever that is not provide by the
> > >>>>> community
> > >>>>>>>> as,
> > >>>>>>>>>>> like we can already see in many ASF projects, no commercial
> > >>>>>>>>>>> support
> > >>>>>> is
> > >>>>>>>>>>> provided by the foundation. I think it could help with the
> > >>>>>>>>>>> adoption
> > >>>>>> and
> > >>>>>>>>>> the
> > >>>>>>>>>>> growth of the project because the users
> > >>>>>>>>>>> need commercial support for production issues.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> If the community is agree about this idea and want to move
> > >>>>> forward, I
> > >>>>>>>>>> just
> > >>>>>>>>>>> add one company in the PR but everybody can add some by
> > >>>>>>>>>>> providing a
> > >>>>>> new
> > >>>>>>>>>> PR
> > >>>>>>>>>>> to complete the list. If people want me to add other you can
> > reply
> > >>>>> to
> > >>>>>>>>>> this
> > >>>>>>>>>>> thread because it will be better to have several company at the
> > >>>>> first
> > >>>>>>>>>>> publication of the page.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Just provide the company-name and a short description of the
> > >>>>> service
> > >>>>>>>>>> offer
> > >>>>>>>>>>> around Apache Kafka. The information must be factual and
> > >>>>>> informational
> > >>>>>>>> in
> > >>>>>>>>>>> nature and not be a marketing statement.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> regards,
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> François
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> --
> > >>>>>>>> --
> > >>>>>>>> François
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>> --
> > >>>>>> --
> > >>>>>> François
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> >
> 

Re: [PROPOSAL] Add commercial support page on website

[Viktor Somogyi-Vass <vi...@cloudera.com.INVALID>]

Hi all,

I think that making and updating such a list implies tricky questions that
we have to deal with. Good examples were given by Matthias, that was my
first thought as well before reading his response.

On the other hand I think it would be a good alternative to create a list
of companies that are either regular or meaningful contributors to the
project, provide other help such as testing infra or sponsors of the
project in other ways. This may present those companies who provide support
too and I think it'd be some appreciation as well to display them.

What do you all think?

Best,
Viktor


On Mon, Jan 15, 2024 at 10:08 AM Francois Papon <
francois.papon@openobject.fr> wrote:

> Hi Tison,
>
> Publishing a dedicated website for that can be a good idea, however if
> the link of the website could not be mention in the official Apache
> Kafka website I'm afraid that it will not be relevant.
>
> BTW, as I understand after all the feedback of the Apache Kafka PMC and
> community, my proposal is not a good idea for the project so I will
> close the PR.
>
> Thanks all for the feedback.
>
> regards,
>
> François
>
> On 14/01/2024 12:56, tison wrote:
> > FWIW - even if it's rejected by the Kafka PMC, you can maintain your
> > own page for such information and provide your personal comments on
> > them. If the object is to provide information and help users to make
> > decisions, it should help. Although you should do the SEO by yourself,
> > if the information is somehow neutral and valuable, you can ask the
> > @apachekafka Twitter (X) account to propagate it and provide a blog
> > for Kafka blogs.
> >
> > This is the common way how third-party "evangelist" producing content
> > and get it promoted.
> >
> > Best,
> > tison.
> >
> > Matthias J. Sax <mj...@apache.org> 于2024年1月13日周六 07:35写道：
> >> François,
> >>
> >> thanks for starting this initiative. Personally, I don't think it's
> >> necessarily harmful for the project to add such a new page, however, I
> >> share the same concerns others raised already.
> >>
> >> I understand your motivation that people had issues finding commercial
> >> support, but I am not sure we can address this issue that way. I am also
> >> "worried" (for the lack of a better word) that the page might become
> >> long an unwieldy. In the end, any freelancer/consultant offering Kafka
> >> services would be able to get on the page, so we might get hundreds of
> >> entries, what also makes it impossible for users to find what they are
> >> looking for. Also, the services of different companies might vary
> >> drastically; should users read all these descriptions? I can also
> >> imagine that some companies offer their services only in some
> >> countries/regions making it even harder for user to find what they are
> >> looking for?
> >>
> >> Overall, it sounds more like a search optimization problem, and thus it
> >> seems out-of-scope what we can solve. As I said, I am not strictly
> >> against it, but I just don't see much value either.
> >>
> >>
> >> -Matthias
> >>
> >> On 1/11/24 12:55 PM, Francois Papon wrote:
> >>> Hi Justine,
> >>>
> >>> You're right, Kafka is a part of my business (training, consulting,
> >>> architecture design, sla...) and most of the time, users/customers said
> >>> that it was hard for them to find a commercial support (in France for
> my
> >>> case) after searching on the Kafka website (Google didn't help them).
> >>>
> >>> As an ASF member and PMC of several ASF projects, I know that this kind
> >>> of page exist so this is why I made this proposal for the Kafka project
> >>> because I really think that it can help users.
> >>>
> >>> As you suggest, I can submit a PR to be added on the "powered by" page.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks,
> >>>
> >>> François
> >>>
> >>> On 11/01/2024 21:00, Justine Olshan wrote:
> >>>> Hey François,
> >>>>
> >>>> My point was that the companies on that page use kafka as part of
> their
> >>>> business. If you use Kafka as part of your business feel free to
> submit a
> >>>> PR to be added.
> >>>>
> >>>> I second Chris's point that other projects are not enough to require
> >>>> Kafka
> >>>> having such a support page.
> >>>>
> >>>> Justine
> >>>>
> >>>> On Thu, Jan 11, 2024 at 11:57 AM Chris Egerton <
> fearthecellos@gmail.com>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Hi François,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Is it an official policy of the ASF that projects provide a listing
> of
> >>>>> commercial support options for themselves? I understand that other
> >>>>> projects
> >>>>> have chosen to provide one, but this doesn't necessarily imply that
> all
> >>>>> projects should do the same, and I can't say I find this point very
> >>>>> convincing as a rebuttal to some of the good-faith concerns raised by
> >>>>> the
> >>>>> PMC and members of the community so far. However, if there's an
> official
> >>>>> ASF stance on this topic, then I acknowledge that Apache Kafka should
> >>>>> align
> >>>>> with it.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Best,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Chris
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Thu, Jan 11, 2024, 14:50 fpapon <fp...@apache.org> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Hi Justine,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I'm not sure to see the difference between "happy users" and vendors
> >>>>>> that advertise their products in some of the company list in the
> >>>>>> "powered by" page.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Btw, my initial purpose of my proposal was to help user to find
> support
> >>>>>> for production stuff rather than searching in google.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I don't think this is a bad thing because this is something that
> >>>>>> already
> >>>>>> exist in many ASF projects like:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> https://hop.apache.org/community/commercial/
> >>>>>> https://struts.apache.org/commercial-support.html
> >>>>>> https://directory.apache.org/commercial-support.html
> >>>>>> https://tomee.apache.org/commercial-support.html
> >>>>>> https://plc4x.apache.org/users/commercial-support.html
> >>>>>> https://camel.apache.org/community/support/
> >>>>>> https://openmeetings.apache.org/commercial-support.html
> >>>>>> https://guacamole.apache.org/support/
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/HADOOP2/Distributions+and+Commercial+Support
> >>>>>
> https://activemq.apache.org/supporthttps://karaf.apache.org/community.html
> >>>>>> https://netbeans.apache.org/front/main/help/commercial-support/
> >>>>>> https://royale.apache.org/royale-commercial-support/
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> https://karaf.apache.org/community.html
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> As I understand for now, the channel for users to find production
> >>>>>> support is:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> - The mailing list (user@kafka.apache.org / dev@kafka.apache.org)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> - The official #kafka  ASF Slack channel (may be we can add it on
> the
> >>>>>> website because I didn't find it in the website =>
> >>>>>> https://kafka.apache.org/contact)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> - Search in google for commercial support only
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I can update my PR to mention only the 3 points above for the "get
> >>>>>> support" page if people think that having a support page make sense.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> regards,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> François
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On 11/01/2024 19:34, Justine Olshan wrote:
> >>>>>>> I think there is a difference between the "Powered by" page and a
> page
> >>>>>> for
> >>>>>>> vendors to advertise their products and services.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> The idea is that the companies on that page are "powered by" Kafka.
> >>>>> They
> >>>>>>> serve as examples of happy users of Kafka.
> >>>>>>> I don't think it is meant only as a place just for those companies
> to
> >>>>>>> advertise.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I'm a little confused by
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> In this case, I'm ok to say that the commercial support section in
> >>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>> "Get support" is no need as we can use this page.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> If you plan to submit for this page, please include a description
> on
> >>>>> how
> >>>>>>> your company uses Kafka.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I'm happy to hear other folks' opinions on this page as well.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>>> Justine
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Thu, Jan 11, 2024 at 8:57 AM fpapon <fp...@apache.org> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Hi,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> About the vendors list and neutrality, what is the policy of the
> >>>>>>>> "Powered by" page?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> https://kafka.apache.org/powered-by
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> We can see company with logo, some are talking about their product
> >>>>>>>> (Agoora), some are offering services (Instaclustr, Aiven), and we
> can
> >>>>>>>> also see some that just put their logo and a link to their website
> >>>>>>>> without any explanation (GoldmanSachs).
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> So as I understand and after reading the text in the footer of
> this
> >>>>>>>> page, every company can add themselves by providing a PR right?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> "Want to appear on this page?
> >>>>>>>> Submit a pull request or send a quick description of your
> >>>>>>>> organization
> >>>>>>>> and usage to the mailing list and we'll add you."
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> In this case, I'm ok to say that the commercial support section in
> >>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>> "Get support" is no need as we can use this page.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> regards,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> François
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On 10/01/2024 19:03, Kenneth Eversole wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> I agree with Divji here and to be more pointed. I worry that if
> >>>>>>>>> we go
> >>>>>>>> down
> >>>>>>>>> the path of adding vendors to a list it comes off as supporting
> >>>>>>>>> their
> >>>>>>>>> product, not to mention could be a huge security risk for novice
> >>>>>> users. I
> >>>>>>>>> would rather this be a callout to other purely open source
> tooling,
> >>>>>> such
> >>>>>>>> as
> >>>>>>>>> cruise control.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Divji brings up good question
> >>>>>>>>> 1.  What value does additional of this page bring to the users of
> >>>>>> Apache
> >>>>>>>>> Kafka?
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I think the community would be a better service to have a more
> >>>>>>>> synchronous
> >>>>>>>>> line of communication such as Slack/Discord and we call that out
> >>>>> here.
> >>>>>> It
> >>>>>>>>> would be more inline with other major open source projects.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> ---
> >>>>>>>>> Kenneth Eversole
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jan 10, 2024 at 10:30 AM Divij Vaidya <
> >>>>> divijvaidya13@gmail.com
> >>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I don't see a need for this. What additional information does
> this
> >>>>>>>> provide
> >>>>>>>>>> over what can be found via a quick google search?
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> My primary concern is that we are getting in the business of
> >>>>>>>>>> listing
> >>>>>>>>>> vendors in the project site which brings it's own complications
> >>>>>> without
> >>>>>>>>>> adding much additional value for users. In the spirit of being
> >>>>> vendor
> >>>>>>>>>> neutral, I would try to avoid this as much as possible.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> So, my question to you is:
> >>>>>>>>>> 1. What value does additional of this page bring to the users of
> >>>>>> Apache
> >>>>>>>>>> Kafka?
> >>>>>>>>>> 2. When a new PR is submitted to add a vendor, what criteria do
> we
> >>>>>> have
> >>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>>> decide whether to add them or not? If we keep a blanket
> criteria of
> >>>>>>>>>> accepting all PRs, then we may end up in a situation where the
> >>>>>>>>>> llink
> >>>>>>>>>> redirects to a phishing page or nefarious website. Hence, we
> might
> >>>>>> have
> >>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>>> at least perform some basic due diligence which adds overhead to
> >>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>> resources of the community.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>> Divij Vaidya
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jan 10, 2024 at 5:00 PM fpapon <fp...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> After starting a first thread on this topic (
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> https://lists.apache.org/thread/kkox33rhtjcdr5zztq3lzj7c5s7k9wsr),
> >>>>> I
> >>>>>>>>>>> would like to propose a PR:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/apache/kafka-site/pull/577
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> The purpose of this proposal is to help users to find support
> for
> >>>>>> sla,
> >>>>>>>>>>> training, consulting...whatever that is not provide by the
> >>>>> community
> >>>>>>>> as,
> >>>>>>>>>>> like we can already see in many ASF projects, no commercial
> >>>>>>>>>>> support
> >>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>>>>> provided by the foundation. I think it could help with the
> >>>>>>>>>>> adoption
> >>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>> growth of the project because the users
> >>>>>>>>>>> need commercial support for production issues.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> If the community is agree about this idea and want to move
> >>>>> forward, I
> >>>>>>>>>> just
> >>>>>>>>>>> add one company in the PR but everybody can add some by
> >>>>>>>>>>> providing a
> >>>>>> new
> >>>>>>>>>> PR
> >>>>>>>>>>> to complete the list. If people want me to add other you can
> reply
> >>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>>> this
> >>>>>>>>>>> thread because it will be better to have several company at the
> >>>>> first
> >>>>>>>>>>> publication of the page.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Just provide the company-name and a short description of the
> >>>>> service
> >>>>>>>>>> offer
> >>>>>>>>>>> around Apache Kafka. The information must be factual and
> >>>>>> informational
> >>>>>>>> in
> >>>>>>>>>>> nature and not be a marketing statement.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> regards,
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> François
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>> François
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> François
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
>

Re: [PROPOSAL] Add commercial support page on website

[Viktor Somogyi-Vass <vi...@cloudera.com.INVALID>]

Hi all,

I think that making and updating such a list implies tricky questions that
we have to deal with. Good examples were given by Matthias, that was my
first thought as well before reading his response.

On the other hand I think it would be a good alternative to create a list
of companies that are either regular or meaningful contributors to the
project, provide other help such as testing infra or sponsors of the
project in other ways. This may present those companies who provide support
too and I think it'd be some appreciation as well to display them.

What do you all think?

Best,
Viktor


On Mon, Jan 15, 2024 at 10:08 AM Francois Papon <
francois.papon@openobject.fr> wrote:

> Hi Tison,
>
> Publishing a dedicated website for that can be a good idea, however if
> the link of the website could not be mention in the official Apache
> Kafka website I'm afraid that it will not be relevant.
>
> BTW, as I understand after all the feedback of the Apache Kafka PMC and
> community, my proposal is not a good idea for the project so I will
> close the PR.
>
> Thanks all for the feedback.
>
> regards,
>
> François
>
> On 14/01/2024 12:56, tison wrote:
> > FWIW - even if it's rejected by the Kafka PMC, you can maintain your
> > own page for such information and provide your personal comments on
> > them. If the object is to provide information and help users to make
> > decisions, it should help. Although you should do the SEO by yourself,
> > if the information is somehow neutral and valuable, you can ask the
> > @apachekafka Twitter (X) account to propagate it and provide a blog
> > for Kafka blogs.
> >
> > This is the common way how third-party "evangelist" producing content
> > and get it promoted.
> >
> > Best,
> > tison.
> >
> > Matthias J. Sax <mj...@apache.org> 于2024年1月13日周六 07:35写道：
> >> François,
> >>
> >> thanks for starting this initiative. Personally, I don't think it's
> >> necessarily harmful for the project to add such a new page, however, I
> >> share the same concerns others raised already.
> >>
> >> I understand your motivation that people had issues finding commercial
> >> support, but I am not sure we can address this issue that way. I am also
> >> "worried" (for the lack of a better word) that the page might become
> >> long an unwieldy. In the end, any freelancer/consultant offering Kafka
> >> services would be able to get on the page, so we might get hundreds of
> >> entries, what also makes it impossible for users to find what they are
> >> looking for. Also, the services of different companies might vary
> >> drastically; should users read all these descriptions? I can also
> >> imagine that some companies offer their services only in some
> >> countries/regions making it even harder for user to find what they are
> >> looking for?
> >>
> >> Overall, it sounds more like a search optimization problem, and thus it
> >> seems out-of-scope what we can solve. As I said, I am not strictly
> >> against it, but I just don't see much value either.
> >>
> >>
> >> -Matthias
> >>
> >> On 1/11/24 12:55 PM, Francois Papon wrote:
> >>> Hi Justine,
> >>>
> >>> You're right, Kafka is a part of my business (training, consulting,
> >>> architecture design, sla...) and most of the time, users/customers said
> >>> that it was hard for them to find a commercial support (in France for
> my
> >>> case) after searching on the Kafka website (Google didn't help them).
> >>>
> >>> As an ASF member and PMC of several ASF projects, I know that this kind
> >>> of page exist so this is why I made this proposal for the Kafka project
> >>> because I really think that it can help users.
> >>>
> >>> As you suggest, I can submit a PR to be added on the "powered by" page.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks,
> >>>
> >>> François
> >>>
> >>> On 11/01/2024 21:00, Justine Olshan wrote:
> >>>> Hey François,
> >>>>
> >>>> My point was that the companies on that page use kafka as part of
> their
> >>>> business. If you use Kafka as part of your business feel free to
> submit a
> >>>> PR to be added.
> >>>>
> >>>> I second Chris's point that other projects are not enough to require
> >>>> Kafka
> >>>> having such a support page.
> >>>>
> >>>> Justine
> >>>>
> >>>> On Thu, Jan 11, 2024 at 11:57 AM Chris Egerton <
> fearthecellos@gmail.com>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Hi François,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Is it an official policy of the ASF that projects provide a listing
> of
> >>>>> commercial support options for themselves? I understand that other
> >>>>> projects
> >>>>> have chosen to provide one, but this doesn't necessarily imply that
> all
> >>>>> projects should do the same, and I can't say I find this point very
> >>>>> convincing as a rebuttal to some of the good-faith concerns raised by
> >>>>> the
> >>>>> PMC and members of the community so far. However, if there's an
> official
> >>>>> ASF stance on this topic, then I acknowledge that Apache Kafka should
> >>>>> align
> >>>>> with it.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Best,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Chris
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Thu, Jan 11, 2024, 14:50 fpapon <fp...@apache.org> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Hi Justine,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I'm not sure to see the difference between "happy users" and vendors
> >>>>>> that advertise their products in some of the company list in the
> >>>>>> "powered by" page.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Btw, my initial purpose of my proposal was to help user to find
> support
> >>>>>> for production stuff rather than searching in google.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I don't think this is a bad thing because this is something that
> >>>>>> already
> >>>>>> exist in many ASF projects like:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> https://hop.apache.org/community/commercial/
> >>>>>> https://struts.apache.org/commercial-support.html
> >>>>>> https://directory.apache.org/commercial-support.html
> >>>>>> https://tomee.apache.org/commercial-support.html
> >>>>>> https://plc4x.apache.org/users/commercial-support.html
> >>>>>> https://camel.apache.org/community/support/
> >>>>>> https://openmeetings.apache.org/commercial-support.html
> >>>>>> https://guacamole.apache.org/support/
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/HADOOP2/Distributions+and+Commercial+Support
> >>>>>
> https://activemq.apache.org/supporthttps://karaf.apache.org/community.html
> >>>>>> https://netbeans.apache.org/front/main/help/commercial-support/
> >>>>>> https://royale.apache.org/royale-commercial-support/
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> https://karaf.apache.org/community.html
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> As I understand for now, the channel for users to find production
> >>>>>> support is:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> - The mailing list (user@kafka.apache.org / dev@kafka.apache.org)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> - The official #kafka  ASF Slack channel (may be we can add it on
> the
> >>>>>> website because I didn't find it in the website =>
> >>>>>> https://kafka.apache.org/contact)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> - Search in google for commercial support only
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I can update my PR to mention only the 3 points above for the "get
> >>>>>> support" page if people think that having a support page make sense.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> regards,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> François
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On 11/01/2024 19:34, Justine Olshan wrote:
> >>>>>>> I think there is a difference between the "Powered by" page and a
> page
> >>>>>> for
> >>>>>>> vendors to advertise their products and services.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> The idea is that the companies on that page are "powered by" Kafka.
> >>>>> They
> >>>>>>> serve as examples of happy users of Kafka.
> >>>>>>> I don't think it is meant only as a place just for those companies
> to
> >>>>>>> advertise.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I'm a little confused by
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> In this case, I'm ok to say that the commercial support section in
> >>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>> "Get support" is no need as we can use this page.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> If you plan to submit for this page, please include a description
> on
> >>>>> how
> >>>>>>> your company uses Kafka.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I'm happy to hear other folks' opinions on this page as well.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>>> Justine
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Thu, Jan 11, 2024 at 8:57 AM fpapon <fp...@apache.org> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Hi,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> About the vendors list and neutrality, what is the policy of the
> >>>>>>>> "Powered by" page?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> https://kafka.apache.org/powered-by
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> We can see company with logo, some are talking about their product
> >>>>>>>> (Agoora), some are offering services (Instaclustr, Aiven), and we
> can
> >>>>>>>> also see some that just put their logo and a link to their website
> >>>>>>>> without any explanation (GoldmanSachs).
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> So as I understand and after reading the text in the footer of
> this
> >>>>>>>> page, every company can add themselves by providing a PR right?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> "Want to appear on this page?
> >>>>>>>> Submit a pull request or send a quick description of your
> >>>>>>>> organization
> >>>>>>>> and usage to the mailing list and we'll add you."
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> In this case, I'm ok to say that the commercial support section in
> >>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>> "Get support" is no need as we can use this page.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> regards,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> François
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On 10/01/2024 19:03, Kenneth Eversole wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> I agree with Divji here and to be more pointed. I worry that if
> >>>>>>>>> we go
> >>>>>>>> down
> >>>>>>>>> the path of adding vendors to a list it comes off as supporting
> >>>>>>>>> their
> >>>>>>>>> product, not to mention could be a huge security risk for novice
> >>>>>> users. I
> >>>>>>>>> would rather this be a callout to other purely open source
> tooling,
> >>>>>> such
> >>>>>>>> as
> >>>>>>>>> cruise control.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Divji brings up good question
> >>>>>>>>> 1.  What value does additional of this page bring to the users of
> >>>>>> Apache
> >>>>>>>>> Kafka?
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I think the community would be a better service to have a more
> >>>>>>>> synchronous
> >>>>>>>>> line of communication such as Slack/Discord and we call that out
> >>>>> here.
> >>>>>> It
> >>>>>>>>> would be more inline with other major open source projects.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> ---
> >>>>>>>>> Kenneth Eversole
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jan 10, 2024 at 10:30 AM Divij Vaidya <
> >>>>> divijvaidya13@gmail.com
> >>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I don't see a need for this. What additional information does
> this
> >>>>>>>> provide
> >>>>>>>>>> over what can be found via a quick google search?
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> My primary concern is that we are getting in the business of
> >>>>>>>>>> listing
> >>>>>>>>>> vendors in the project site which brings it's own complications
> >>>>>> without
> >>>>>>>>>> adding much additional value for users. In the spirit of being
> >>>>> vendor
> >>>>>>>>>> neutral, I would try to avoid this as much as possible.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> So, my question to you is:
> >>>>>>>>>> 1. What value does additional of this page bring to the users of
> >>>>>> Apache
> >>>>>>>>>> Kafka?
> >>>>>>>>>> 2. When a new PR is submitted to add a vendor, what criteria do
> we
> >>>>>> have
> >>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>>> decide whether to add them or not? If we keep a blanket
> criteria of
> >>>>>>>>>> accepting all PRs, then we may end up in a situation where the
> >>>>>>>>>> llink
> >>>>>>>>>> redirects to a phishing page or nefarious website. Hence, we
> might
> >>>>>> have
> >>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>>> at least perform some basic due diligence which adds overhead to
> >>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>> resources of the community.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>> Divij Vaidya
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jan 10, 2024 at 5:00 PM fpapon <fp...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> After starting a first thread on this topic (
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> https://lists.apache.org/thread/kkox33rhtjcdr5zztq3lzj7c5s7k9wsr),
> >>>>> I
> >>>>>>>>>>> would like to propose a PR:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/apache/kafka-site/pull/577
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> The purpose of this proposal is to help users to find support
> for
> >>>>>> sla,
> >>>>>>>>>>> training, consulting...whatever that is not provide by the
> >>>>> community
> >>>>>>>> as,
> >>>>>>>>>>> like we can already see in many ASF projects, no commercial
> >>>>>>>>>>> support
> >>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>>>>> provided by the foundation. I think it could help with the
> >>>>>>>>>>> adoption
> >>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>> growth of the project because the users
> >>>>>>>>>>> need commercial support for production issues.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> If the community is agree about this idea and want to move
> >>>>> forward, I
> >>>>>>>>>> just
> >>>>>>>>>>> add one company in the PR but everybody can add some by
> >>>>>>>>>>> providing a
> >>>>>> new
> >>>>>>>>>> PR
> >>>>>>>>>>> to complete the list. If people want me to add other you can
> reply
> >>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>>> this
> >>>>>>>>>>> thread because it will be better to have several company at the
> >>>>> first
> >>>>>>>>>>> publication of the page.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Just provide the company-name and a short description of the
> >>>>> service
> >>>>>>>>>> offer
> >>>>>>>>>>> around Apache Kafka. The information must be factual and
> >>>>>> informational
> >>>>>>>> in
> >>>>>>>>>>> nature and not be a marketing statement.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> regards,
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> François
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>> François
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> François
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
>

Re: [PROPOSAL] Add commercial support page on website

[Francois Papon <fr...@openobject.fr>]

Hi Tison,

Publishing a dedicated website for that can be a good idea, however if 
the link of the website could not be mention in the official Apache 
Kafka website I'm afraid that it will not be relevant.

BTW, as I understand after all the feedback of the Apache Kafka PMC and 
community, my proposal is not a good idea for the project so I will 
close the PR.

Thanks all for the feedback.

regards,

François

On 14/01/2024 12:56, tison wrote:
> FWIW - even if it's rejected by the Kafka PMC, you can maintain your
> own page for such information and provide your personal comments on
> them. If the object is to provide information and help users to make
> decisions, it should help. Although you should do the SEO by yourself,
> if the information is somehow neutral and valuable, you can ask the
> @apachekafka Twitter (X) account to propagate it and provide a blog
> for Kafka blogs.
>
> This is the common way how third-party "evangelist" producing content
> and get it promoted.
>
> Best,
> tison.
>
> Matthias J. Sax <mj...@apache.org> 于2024年1月13日周六 07:35写道：
>> François,
>>
>> thanks for starting this initiative. Personally, I don't think it's
>> necessarily harmful for the project to add such a new page, however, I
>> share the same concerns others raised already.
>>
>> I understand your motivation that people had issues finding commercial
>> support, but I am not sure we can address this issue that way. I am also
>> "worried" (for the lack of a better word) that the page might become
>> long an unwieldy. In the end, any freelancer/consultant offering Kafka
>> services would be able to get on the page, so we might get hundreds of
>> entries, what also makes it impossible for users to find what they are
>> looking for. Also, the services of different companies might vary
>> drastically; should users read all these descriptions? I can also
>> imagine that some companies offer their services only in some
>> countries/regions making it even harder for user to find what they are
>> looking for?
>>
>> Overall, it sounds more like a search optimization problem, and thus it
>> seems out-of-scope what we can solve. As I said, I am not strictly
>> against it, but I just don't see much value either.
>>
>>
>> -Matthias
>>
>> On 1/11/24 12:55 PM, Francois Papon wrote:
>>> Hi Justine,
>>>
>>> You're right, Kafka is a part of my business (training, consulting,
>>> architecture design, sla...) and most of the time, users/customers said
>>> that it was hard for them to find a commercial support (in France for my
>>> case) after searching on the Kafka website (Google didn't help them).
>>>
>>> As an ASF member and PMC of several ASF projects, I know that this kind
>>> of page exist so this is why I made this proposal for the Kafka project
>>> because I really think that it can help users.
>>>
>>> As you suggest, I can submit a PR to be added on the "powered by" page.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> François
>>>
>>> On 11/01/2024 21:00, Justine Olshan wrote:
>>>> Hey François,
>>>>
>>>> My point was that the companies on that page use kafka as part of their
>>>> business. If you use Kafka as part of your business feel free to submit a
>>>> PR to be added.
>>>>
>>>> I second Chris's point that other projects are not enough to require
>>>> Kafka
>>>> having such a support page.
>>>>
>>>> Justine
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Jan 11, 2024 at 11:57 AM Chris Egerton <fe...@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi François,
>>>>>
>>>>> Is it an official policy of the ASF that projects provide a listing of
>>>>> commercial support options for themselves? I understand that other
>>>>> projects
>>>>> have chosen to provide one, but this doesn't necessarily imply that all
>>>>> projects should do the same, and I can't say I find this point very
>>>>> convincing as a rebuttal to some of the good-faith concerns raised by
>>>>> the
>>>>> PMC and members of the community so far. However, if there's an official
>>>>> ASF stance on this topic, then I acknowledge that Apache Kafka should
>>>>> align
>>>>> with it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best,
>>>>>
>>>>> Chris
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Jan 11, 2024, 14:50 fpapon <fp...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Justine,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm not sure to see the difference between "happy users" and vendors
>>>>>> that advertise their products in some of the company list in the
>>>>>> "powered by" page.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Btw, my initial purpose of my proposal was to help user to find support
>>>>>> for production stuff rather than searching in google.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't think this is a bad thing because this is something that
>>>>>> already
>>>>>> exist in many ASF projects like:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://hop.apache.org/community/commercial/
>>>>>> https://struts.apache.org/commercial-support.html
>>>>>> https://directory.apache.org/commercial-support.html
>>>>>> https://tomee.apache.org/commercial-support.html
>>>>>> https://plc4x.apache.org/users/commercial-support.html
>>>>>> https://camel.apache.org/community/support/
>>>>>> https://openmeetings.apache.org/commercial-support.html
>>>>>> https://guacamole.apache.org/support/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/HADOOP2/Distributions+and+Commercial+Support
>>>>> https://activemq.apache.org/supporthttps://karaf.apache.org/community.html
>>>>>> https://netbeans.apache.org/front/main/help/commercial-support/
>>>>>> https://royale.apache.org/royale-commercial-support/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://karaf.apache.org/community.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As I understand for now, the channel for users to find production
>>>>>> support is:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - The mailing list (user@kafka.apache.org / dev@kafka.apache.org)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - The official #kafka  ASF Slack channel (may be we can add it on the
>>>>>> website because I didn't find it in the website =>
>>>>>> https://kafka.apache.org/contact)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - Search in google for commercial support only
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I can update my PR to mention only the 3 points above for the "get
>>>>>> support" page if people think that having a support page make sense.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> François
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 11/01/2024 19:34, Justine Olshan wrote:
>>>>>>> I think there is a difference between the "Powered by" page and a page
>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> vendors to advertise their products and services.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The idea is that the companies on that page are "powered by" Kafka.
>>>>> They
>>>>>>> serve as examples of happy users of Kafka.
>>>>>>> I don't think it is meant only as a place just for those companies to
>>>>>>> advertise.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm a little confused by
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In this case, I'm ok to say that the commercial support section in
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> "Get support" is no need as we can use this page.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you plan to submit for this page, please include a description on
>>>>> how
>>>>>>> your company uses Kafka.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm happy to hear other folks' opinions on this page as well.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>> Justine
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Jan 11, 2024 at 8:57 AM fpapon <fp...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> About the vendors list and neutrality, what is the policy of the
>>>>>>>> "Powered by" page?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://kafka.apache.org/powered-by
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We can see company with logo, some are talking about their product
>>>>>>>> (Agoora), some are offering services (Instaclustr, Aiven), and we can
>>>>>>>> also see some that just put their logo and a link to their website
>>>>>>>> without any explanation (GoldmanSachs).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So as I understand and after reading the text in the footer of this
>>>>>>>> page, every company can add themselves by providing a PR right?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Want to appear on this page?
>>>>>>>> Submit a pull request or send a quick description of your
>>>>>>>> organization
>>>>>>>> and usage to the mailing list and we'll add you."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In this case, I'm ok to say that the commercial support section in
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> "Get support" is no need as we can use this page.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> regards,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> François
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 10/01/2024 19:03, Kenneth Eversole wrote:
>>>>>>>>> I agree with Divji here and to be more pointed. I worry that if
>>>>>>>>> we go
>>>>>>>> down
>>>>>>>>> the path of adding vendors to a list it comes off as supporting
>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>> product, not to mention could be a huge security risk for novice
>>>>>> users. I
>>>>>>>>> would rather this be a callout to other purely open source tooling,
>>>>>> such
>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>> cruise control.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Divji brings up good question
>>>>>>>>> 1.  What value does additional of this page bring to the users of
>>>>>> Apache
>>>>>>>>> Kafka?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I think the community would be a better service to have a more
>>>>>>>> synchronous
>>>>>>>>> line of communication such as Slack/Discord and we call that out
>>>>> here.
>>>>>> It
>>>>>>>>> would be more inline with other major open source projects.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ---
>>>>>>>>> Kenneth Eversole
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jan 10, 2024 at 10:30 AM Divij Vaidya <
>>>>> divijvaidya13@gmail.com
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I don't see a need for this. What additional information does this
>>>>>>>> provide
>>>>>>>>>> over what can be found via a quick google search?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> My primary concern is that we are getting in the business of
>>>>>>>>>> listing
>>>>>>>>>> vendors in the project site which brings it's own complications
>>>>>> without
>>>>>>>>>> adding much additional value for users. In the spirit of being
>>>>> vendor
>>>>>>>>>> neutral, I would try to avoid this as much as possible.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> So, my question to you is:
>>>>>>>>>> 1. What value does additional of this page bring to the users of
>>>>>> Apache
>>>>>>>>>> Kafka?
>>>>>>>>>> 2. When a new PR is submitted to add a vendor, what criteria do we
>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> decide whether to add them or not? If we keep a blanket criteria of
>>>>>>>>>> accepting all PRs, then we may end up in a situation where the
>>>>>>>>>> llink
>>>>>>>>>> redirects to a phishing page or nefarious website. Hence, we might
>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> at least perform some basic due diligence which adds overhead to
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> resources of the community.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Divij Vaidya
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jan 10, 2024 at 5:00 PM fpapon <fp...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> After starting a first thread on this topic (
>>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/kkox33rhtjcdr5zztq3lzj7c5s7k9wsr),
>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>> would like to propose a PR:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/apache/kafka-site/pull/577
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The purpose of this proposal is to help users to find support for
>>>>>> sla,
>>>>>>>>>>> training, consulting...whatever that is not provide by the
>>>>> community
>>>>>>>> as,
>>>>>>>>>>> like we can already see in many ASF projects, no commercial
>>>>>>>>>>> support
>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>> provided by the foundation. I think it could help with the
>>>>>>>>>>> adoption
>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> growth of the project because the users
>>>>>>>>>>> need commercial support for production issues.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> If the community is agree about this idea and want to move
>>>>> forward, I
>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>>> add one company in the PR but everybody can add some by
>>>>>>>>>>> providing a
>>>>>> new
>>>>>>>>>> PR
>>>>>>>>>>> to complete the list. If people want me to add other you can reply
>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>> thread because it will be better to have several company at the
>>>>> first
>>>>>>>>>>> publication of the page.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Just provide the company-name and a short description of the
>>>>> service
>>>>>>>>>> offer
>>>>>>>>>>> around Apache Kafka. The information must be factual and
>>>>>> informational
>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>> nature and not be a marketing statement.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> François
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> François
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> François
>>>>>>
>>>>>>

Re: [PROPOSAL] Add commercial support page on website

[Francois Papon <fr...@openobject.fr>]

Hi Tison,

Publishing a dedicated website for that can be a good idea, however if 
the link of the website could not be mention in the official Apache 
Kafka website I'm afraid that it will not be relevant.

BTW, as I understand after all the feedback of the Apache Kafka PMC and 
community, my proposal is not a good idea for the project so I will 
close the PR.

Thanks all for the feedback.

regards,

François

On 14/01/2024 12:56, tison wrote:
> FWIW - even if it's rejected by the Kafka PMC, you can maintain your
> own page for such information and provide your personal comments on
> them. If the object is to provide information and help users to make
> decisions, it should help. Although you should do the SEO by yourself,
> if the information is somehow neutral and valuable, you can ask the
> @apachekafka Twitter (X) account to propagate it and provide a blog
> for Kafka blogs.
>
> This is the common way how third-party "evangelist" producing content
> and get it promoted.
>
> Best,
> tison.
>
> Matthias J. Sax <mj...@apache.org> 于2024年1月13日周六 07:35写道：
>> François,
>>
>> thanks for starting this initiative. Personally, I don't think it's
>> necessarily harmful for the project to add such a new page, however, I
>> share the same concerns others raised already.
>>
>> I understand your motivation that people had issues finding commercial
>> support, but I am not sure we can address this issue that way. I am also
>> "worried" (for the lack of a better word) that the page might become
>> long an unwieldy. In the end, any freelancer/consultant offering Kafka
>> services would be able to get on the page, so we might get hundreds of
>> entries, what also makes it impossible for users to find what they are
>> looking for. Also, the services of different companies might vary
>> drastically; should users read all these descriptions? I can also
>> imagine that some companies offer their services only in some
>> countries/regions making it even harder for user to find what they are
>> looking for?
>>
>> Overall, it sounds more like a search optimization problem, and thus it
>> seems out-of-scope what we can solve. As I said, I am not strictly
>> against it, but I just don't see much value either.
>>
>>
>> -Matthias
>>
>> On 1/11/24 12:55 PM, Francois Papon wrote:
>>> Hi Justine,
>>>
>>> You're right, Kafka is a part of my business (training, consulting,
>>> architecture design, sla...) and most of the time, users/customers said
>>> that it was hard for them to find a commercial support (in France for my
>>> case) after searching on the Kafka website (Google didn't help them).
>>>
>>> As an ASF member and PMC of several ASF projects, I know that this kind
>>> of page exist so this is why I made this proposal for the Kafka project
>>> because I really think that it can help users.
>>>
>>> As you suggest, I can submit a PR to be added on the "powered by" page.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> François
>>>
>>> On 11/01/2024 21:00, Justine Olshan wrote:
>>>> Hey François,
>>>>
>>>> My point was that the companies on that page use kafka as part of their
>>>> business. If you use Kafka as part of your business feel free to submit a
>>>> PR to be added.
>>>>
>>>> I second Chris's point that other projects are not enough to require
>>>> Kafka
>>>> having such a support page.
>>>>
>>>> Justine
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Jan 11, 2024 at 11:57 AM Chris Egerton <fe...@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi François,
>>>>>
>>>>> Is it an official policy of the ASF that projects provide a listing of
>>>>> commercial support options for themselves? I understand that other
>>>>> projects
>>>>> have chosen to provide one, but this doesn't necessarily imply that all
>>>>> projects should do the same, and I can't say I find this point very
>>>>> convincing as a rebuttal to some of the good-faith concerns raised by
>>>>> the
>>>>> PMC and members of the community so far. However, if there's an official
>>>>> ASF stance on this topic, then I acknowledge that Apache Kafka should
>>>>> align
>>>>> with it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best,
>>>>>
>>>>> Chris
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Jan 11, 2024, 14:50 fpapon <fp...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Justine,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm not sure to see the difference between "happy users" and vendors
>>>>>> that advertise their products in some of the company list in the
>>>>>> "powered by" page.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Btw, my initial purpose of my proposal was to help user to find support
>>>>>> for production stuff rather than searching in google.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't think this is a bad thing because this is something that
>>>>>> already
>>>>>> exist in many ASF projects like:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://hop.apache.org/community/commercial/
>>>>>> https://struts.apache.org/commercial-support.html
>>>>>> https://directory.apache.org/commercial-support.html
>>>>>> https://tomee.apache.org/commercial-support.html
>>>>>> https://plc4x.apache.org/users/commercial-support.html
>>>>>> https://camel.apache.org/community/support/
>>>>>> https://openmeetings.apache.org/commercial-support.html
>>>>>> https://guacamole.apache.org/support/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/HADOOP2/Distributions+and+Commercial+Support
>>>>> https://activemq.apache.org/supporthttps://karaf.apache.org/community.html
>>>>>> https://netbeans.apache.org/front/main/help/commercial-support/
>>>>>> https://royale.apache.org/royale-commercial-support/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://karaf.apache.org/community.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As I understand for now, the channel for users to find production
>>>>>> support is:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - The mailing list (user@kafka.apache.org / dev@kafka.apache.org)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - The official #kafka  ASF Slack channel (may be we can add it on the
>>>>>> website because I didn't find it in the website =>
>>>>>> https://kafka.apache.org/contact)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - Search in google for commercial support only
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I can update my PR to mention only the 3 points above for the "get
>>>>>> support" page if people think that having a support page make sense.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> François
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 11/01/2024 19:34, Justine Olshan wrote:
>>>>>>> I think there is a difference between the "Powered by" page and a page
>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> vendors to advertise their products and services.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The idea is that the companies on that page are "powered by" Kafka.
>>>>> They
>>>>>>> serve as examples of happy users of Kafka.
>>>>>>> I don't think it is meant only as a place just for those companies to
>>>>>>> advertise.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm a little confused by
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In this case, I'm ok to say that the commercial support section in
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> "Get support" is no need as we can use this page.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you plan to submit for this page, please include a description on
>>>>> how
>>>>>>> your company uses Kafka.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm happy to hear other folks' opinions on this page as well.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>> Justine
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Jan 11, 2024 at 8:57 AM fpapon <fp...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> About the vendors list and neutrality, what is the policy of the
>>>>>>>> "Powered by" page?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://kafka.apache.org/powered-by
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We can see company with logo, some are talking about their product
>>>>>>>> (Agoora), some are offering services (Instaclustr, Aiven), and we can
>>>>>>>> also see some that just put their logo and a link to their website
>>>>>>>> without any explanation (GoldmanSachs).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So as I understand and after reading the text in the footer of this
>>>>>>>> page, every company can add themselves by providing a PR right?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Want to appear on this page?
>>>>>>>> Submit a pull request or send a quick description of your
>>>>>>>> organization
>>>>>>>> and usage to the mailing list and we'll add you."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In this case, I'm ok to say that the commercial support section in
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> "Get support" is no need as we can use this page.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> regards,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> François
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 10/01/2024 19:03, Kenneth Eversole wrote:
>>>>>>>>> I agree with Divji here and to be more pointed. I worry that if
>>>>>>>>> we go
>>>>>>>> down
>>>>>>>>> the path of adding vendors to a list it comes off as supporting
>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>> product, not to mention could be a huge security risk for novice
>>>>>> users. I
>>>>>>>>> would rather this be a callout to other purely open source tooling,
>>>>>> such
>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>> cruise control.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Divji brings up good question
>>>>>>>>> 1.  What value does additional of this page bring to the users of
>>>>>> Apache
>>>>>>>>> Kafka?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I think the community would be a better service to have a more
>>>>>>>> synchronous
>>>>>>>>> line of communication such as Slack/Discord and we call that out
>>>>> here.
>>>>>> It
>>>>>>>>> would be more inline with other major open source projects.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ---
>>>>>>>>> Kenneth Eversole
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jan 10, 2024 at 10:30 AM Divij Vaidya <
>>>>> divijvaidya13@gmail.com
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I don't see a need for this. What additional information does this
>>>>>>>> provide
>>>>>>>>>> over what can be found via a quick google search?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> My primary concern is that we are getting in the business of
>>>>>>>>>> listing
>>>>>>>>>> vendors in the project site which brings it's own complications
>>>>>> without
>>>>>>>>>> adding much additional value for users. In the spirit of being
>>>>> vendor
>>>>>>>>>> neutral, I would try to avoid this as much as possible.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> So, my question to you is:
>>>>>>>>>> 1. What value does additional of this page bring to the users of
>>>>>> Apache
>>>>>>>>>> Kafka?
>>>>>>>>>> 2. When a new PR is submitted to add a vendor, what criteria do we
>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> decide whether to add them or not? If we keep a blanket criteria of
>>>>>>>>>> accepting all PRs, then we may end up in a situation where the
>>>>>>>>>> llink
>>>>>>>>>> redirects to a phishing page or nefarious website. Hence, we might
>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> at least perform some basic due diligence which adds overhead to
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> resources of the community.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Divij Vaidya
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jan 10, 2024 at 5:00 PM fpapon <fp...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> After starting a first thread on this topic (
>>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/kkox33rhtjcdr5zztq3lzj7c5s7k9wsr),
>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>> would like to propose a PR:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/apache/kafka-site/pull/577
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The purpose of this proposal is to help users to find support for
>>>>>> sla,
>>>>>>>>>>> training, consulting...whatever that is not provide by the
>>>>> community
>>>>>>>> as,
>>>>>>>>>>> like we can already see in many ASF projects, no commercial
>>>>>>>>>>> support
>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>> provided by the foundation. I think it could help with the
>>>>>>>>>>> adoption
>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> growth of the project because the users
>>>>>>>>>>> need commercial support for production issues.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> If the community is agree about this idea and want to move
>>>>> forward, I
>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>>> add one company in the PR but everybody can add some by
>>>>>>>>>>> providing a
>>>>>> new
>>>>>>>>>> PR
>>>>>>>>>>> to complete the list. If people want me to add other you can reply
>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>> thread because it will be better to have several company at the
>>>>> first
>>>>>>>>>>> publication of the page.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Just provide the company-name and a short description of the
>>>>> service
>>>>>>>>>> offer
>>>>>>>>>>> around Apache Kafka. The information must be factual and
>>>>>> informational
>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>> nature and not be a marketing statement.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> François
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> François
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> François
>>>>>>
>>>>>>

Re: [PROPOSAL] Add commercial support page on website

[tison <wa...@gmail.com>]

FWIW - even if it's rejected by the Kafka PMC, you can maintain your
own page for such information and provide your personal comments on
them. If the object is to provide information and help users to make
decisions, it should help. Although you should do the SEO by yourself,
if the information is somehow neutral and valuable, you can ask the
@apachekafka Twitter (X) account to propagate it and provide a blog
for Kafka blogs.

This is the common way how third-party "evangelist" producing content
and get it promoted.

Best,
tison.

Matthias J. Sax <mj...@apache.org> 于2024年1月13日周六 07:35写道：
>
> François,
>
> thanks for starting this initiative. Personally, I don't think it's
> necessarily harmful for the project to add such a new page, however, I
> share the same concerns others raised already.
>
> I understand your motivation that people had issues finding commercial
> support, but I am not sure we can address this issue that way. I am also
> "worried" (for the lack of a better word) that the page might become
> long an unwieldy. In the end, any freelancer/consultant offering Kafka
> services would be able to get on the page, so we might get hundreds of
> entries, what also makes it impossible for users to find what they are
> looking for. Also, the services of different companies might vary
> drastically; should users read all these descriptions? I can also
> imagine that some companies offer their services only in some
> countries/regions making it even harder for user to find what they are
> looking for?
>
> Overall, it sounds more like a search optimization problem, and thus it
> seems out-of-scope what we can solve. As I said, I am not strictly
> against it, but I just don't see much value either.
>
>
> -Matthias
>
> On 1/11/24 12:55 PM, Francois Papon wrote:
> > Hi Justine,
> >
> > You're right, Kafka is a part of my business (training, consulting,
> > architecture design, sla...) and most of the time, users/customers said
> > that it was hard for them to find a commercial support (in France for my
> > case) after searching on the Kafka website (Google didn't help them).
> >
> > As an ASF member and PMC of several ASF projects, I know that this kind
> > of page exist so this is why I made this proposal for the Kafka project
> > because I really think that it can help users.
> >
> > As you suggest, I can submit a PR to be added on the "powered by" page.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > François
> >
> > On 11/01/2024 21:00, Justine Olshan wrote:
> >> Hey François,
> >>
> >> My point was that the companies on that page use kafka as part of their
> >> business. If you use Kafka as part of your business feel free to submit a
> >> PR to be added.
> >>
> >> I second Chris's point that other projects are not enough to require
> >> Kafka
> >> having such a support page.
> >>
> >> Justine
> >>
> >> On Thu, Jan 11, 2024 at 11:57 AM Chris Egerton <fe...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hi François,
> >>>
> >>> Is it an official policy of the ASF that projects provide a listing of
> >>> commercial support options for themselves? I understand that other
> >>> projects
> >>> have chosen to provide one, but this doesn't necessarily imply that all
> >>> projects should do the same, and I can't say I find this point very
> >>> convincing as a rebuttal to some of the good-faith concerns raised by
> >>> the
> >>> PMC and members of the community so far. However, if there's an official
> >>> ASF stance on this topic, then I acknowledge that Apache Kafka should
> >>> align
> >>> with it.
> >>>
> >>> Best,
> >>>
> >>> Chris
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Thu, Jan 11, 2024, 14:50 fpapon <fp...@apache.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Hi Justine,
> >>>>
> >>>> I'm not sure to see the difference between "happy users" and vendors
> >>>> that advertise their products in some of the company list in the
> >>>> "powered by" page.
> >>>>
> >>>> Btw, my initial purpose of my proposal was to help user to find support
> >>>> for production stuff rather than searching in google.
> >>>>
> >>>> I don't think this is a bad thing because this is something that
> >>>> already
> >>>> exist in many ASF projects like:
> >>>>
> >>>> https://hop.apache.org/community/commercial/
> >>>> https://struts.apache.org/commercial-support.html
> >>>> https://directory.apache.org/commercial-support.html
> >>>> https://tomee.apache.org/commercial-support.html
> >>>> https://plc4x.apache.org/users/commercial-support.html
> >>>> https://camel.apache.org/community/support/
> >>>> https://openmeetings.apache.org/commercial-support.html
> >>>> https://guacamole.apache.org/support/
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/HADOOP2/Distributions+and+Commercial+Support
> >>> https://activemq.apache.org/supporthttps://karaf.apache.org/community.html
> >>>> https://netbeans.apache.org/front/main/help/commercial-support/
> >>>> https://royale.apache.org/royale-commercial-support/
> >>>>
> >>>> https://karaf.apache.org/community.html
> >>>>
> >>>> As I understand for now, the channel for users to find production
> >>>> support is:
> >>>>
> >>>> - The mailing list (user@kafka.apache.org / dev@kafka.apache.org)
> >>>>
> >>>> - The official #kafka  ASF Slack channel (may be we can add it on the
> >>>> website because I didn't find it in the website =>
> >>>> https://kafka.apache.org/contact)
> >>>>
> >>>> - Search in google for commercial support only
> >>>>
> >>>> I can update my PR to mention only the 3 points above for the "get
> >>>> support" page if people think that having a support page make sense.
> >>>>
> >>>> regards,
> >>>>
> >>>> François
> >>>>
> >>>> On 11/01/2024 19:34, Justine Olshan wrote:
> >>>>> I think there is a difference between the "Powered by" page and a page
> >>>> for
> >>>>> vendors to advertise their products and services.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The idea is that the companies on that page are "powered by" Kafka.
> >>> They
> >>>>> serve as examples of happy users of Kafka.
> >>>>> I don't think it is meant only as a place just for those companies to
> >>>>> advertise.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I'm a little confused by
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> In this case, I'm ok to say that the commercial support section in
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>> "Get support" is no need as we can use this page.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> If you plan to submit for this page, please include a description on
> >>> how
> >>>>> your company uses Kafka.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I'm happy to hear other folks' opinions on this page as well.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>> Justine
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Thu, Jan 11, 2024 at 8:57 AM fpapon <fp...@apache.org> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Hi,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> About the vendors list and neutrality, what is the policy of the
> >>>>>> "Powered by" page?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> https://kafka.apache.org/powered-by
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> We can see company with logo, some are talking about their product
> >>>>>> (Agoora), some are offering services (Instaclustr, Aiven), and we can
> >>>>>> also see some that just put their logo and a link to their website
> >>>>>> without any explanation (GoldmanSachs).
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> So as I understand and after reading the text in the footer of this
> >>>>>> page, every company can add themselves by providing a PR right?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> "Want to appear on this page?
> >>>>>> Submit a pull request or send a quick description of your
> >>>>>> organization
> >>>>>> and usage to the mailing list and we'll add you."
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> In this case, I'm ok to say that the commercial support section in
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>> "Get support" is no need as we can use this page.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> regards,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> François
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On 10/01/2024 19:03, Kenneth Eversole wrote:
> >>>>>>> I agree with Divji here and to be more pointed. I worry that if
> >>>>>>> we go
> >>>>>> down
> >>>>>>> the path of adding vendors to a list it comes off as supporting
> >>>>>>> their
> >>>>>>> product, not to mention could be a huge security risk for novice
> >>>> users. I
> >>>>>>> would rather this be a callout to other purely open source tooling,
> >>>> such
> >>>>>> as
> >>>>>>> cruise control.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Divji brings up good question
> >>>>>>> 1.  What value does additional of this page bring to the users of
> >>>> Apache
> >>>>>>> Kafka?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I think the community would be a better service to have a more
> >>>>>> synchronous
> >>>>>>> line of communication such as Slack/Discord and we call that out
> >>> here.
> >>>> It
> >>>>>>> would be more inline with other major open source projects.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> ---
> >>>>>>> Kenneth Eversole
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Wed, Jan 10, 2024 at 10:30 AM Divij Vaidya <
> >>> divijvaidya13@gmail.com
> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I don't see a need for this. What additional information does this
> >>>>>> provide
> >>>>>>>> over what can be found via a quick google search?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> My primary concern is that we are getting in the business of
> >>>>>>>> listing
> >>>>>>>> vendors in the project site which brings it's own complications
> >>>> without
> >>>>>>>> adding much additional value for users. In the spirit of being
> >>> vendor
> >>>>>>>> neutral, I would try to avoid this as much as possible.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> So, my question to you is:
> >>>>>>>> 1. What value does additional of this page bring to the users of
> >>>> Apache
> >>>>>>>> Kafka?
> >>>>>>>> 2. When a new PR is submitted to add a vendor, what criteria do we
> >>>> have
> >>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>> decide whether to add them or not? If we keep a blanket criteria of
> >>>>>>>> accepting all PRs, then we may end up in a situation where the
> >>>>>>>> llink
> >>>>>>>> redirects to a phishing page or nefarious website. Hence, we might
> >>>> have
> >>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>> at least perform some basic due diligence which adds overhead to
> >>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>> resources of the community.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>> Divij Vaidya
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Wed, Jan 10, 2024 at 5:00 PM fpapon <fp...@apache.org> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Hi,
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> After starting a first thread on this topic (
> >>>>>>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/kkox33rhtjcdr5zztq3lzj7c5s7k9wsr),
> >>> I
> >>>>>>>>> would like to propose a PR:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> https://github.com/apache/kafka-site/pull/577
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> The purpose of this proposal is to help users to find support for
> >>>> sla,
> >>>>>>>>> training, consulting...whatever that is not provide by the
> >>> community
> >>>>>> as,
> >>>>>>>>> like we can already see in many ASF projects, no commercial
> >>>>>>>>> support
> >>>> is
> >>>>>>>>> provided by the foundation. I think it could help with the
> >>>>>>>>> adoption
> >>>> and
> >>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>> growth of the project because the users
> >>>>>>>>> need commercial support for production issues.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> If the community is agree about this idea and want to move
> >>> forward, I
> >>>>>>>> just
> >>>>>>>>> add one company in the PR but everybody can add some by
> >>>>>>>>> providing a
> >>>> new
> >>>>>>>> PR
> >>>>>>>>> to complete the list. If people want me to add other you can reply
> >>> to
> >>>>>>>> this
> >>>>>>>>> thread because it will be better to have several company at the
> >>> first
> >>>>>>>>> publication of the page.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Just provide the company-name and a short description of the
> >>> service
> >>>>>>>> offer
> >>>>>>>>> around Apache Kafka. The information must be factual and
> >>>> informational
> >>>>>> in
> >>>>>>>>> nature and not be a marketing statement.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> regards,
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> François
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> François
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> --
> >>>> François
> >>>>
> >>>>

Re: [PROPOSAL] Add commercial support page on website

[Francois Papon <fr...@openobject.fr>]

Hi Matthias,

Thank you for your feedback, it make sense. My proposal was to help user 
finding support but as you said, may be this is not the right way to 
address it.

regards,

François

On 13/01/2024 00:34, Matthias J. Sax wrote:
> François,
>
> thanks for starting this initiative. Personally, I don't think it's 
> necessarily harmful for the project to add such a new page, however, I 
> share the same concerns others raised already.
>
> I understand your motivation that people had issues finding commercial 
> support, but I am not sure we can address this issue that way. I am 
> also "worried" (for the lack of a better word) that the page might 
> become long an unwieldy. In the end, any freelancer/consultant 
> offering Kafka services would be able to get on the page, so we might 
> get hundreds of entries, what also makes it impossible for users to 
> find what they are looking for. Also, the services of different 
> companies might vary drastically; should users read all these 
> descriptions? I can also imagine that some companies offer their 
> services only in some countries/regions making it even harder for user 
> to find what they are looking for?
>
> Overall, it sounds more like a search optimization problem, and thus 
> it seems out-of-scope what we can solve. As I said, I am not strictly 
> against it, but I just don't see much value either.
>
>
> -Matthias
>
> On 1/11/24 12:55 PM, Francois Papon wrote:
>> Hi Justine,
>>
>> You're right, Kafka is a part of my business (training, consulting, 
>> architecture design, sla...) and most of the time, users/customers 
>> said that it was hard for them to find a commercial support (in 
>> France for my case) after searching on the Kafka website (Google 
>> didn't help them).
>>
>> As an ASF member and PMC of several ASF projects, I know that this 
>> kind of page exist so this is why I made this proposal for the Kafka 
>> project because I really think that it can help users.
>>
>> As you suggest, I can submit a PR to be added on the "powered by" page.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> François
>>
>> On 11/01/2024 21:00, Justine Olshan wrote:
>>> Hey François,
>>>
>>> My point was that the companies on that page use kafka as part of their
>>> business. If you use Kafka as part of your business feel free to 
>>> submit a
>>> PR to be added.
>>>
>>> I second Chris's point that other projects are not enough to require 
>>> Kafka
>>> having such a support page.
>>>
>>> Justine
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jan 11, 2024 at 11:57 AM Chris Egerton 
>>> <fe...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi François,
>>>>
>>>> Is it an official policy of the ASF that projects provide a listing of
>>>> commercial support options for themselves? I understand that other 
>>>> projects
>>>> have chosen to provide one, but this doesn't necessarily imply that 
>>>> all
>>>> projects should do the same, and I can't say I find this point very
>>>> convincing as a rebuttal to some of the good-faith concerns raised 
>>>> by the
>>>> PMC and members of the community so far. However, if there's an 
>>>> official
>>>> ASF stance on this topic, then I acknowledge that Apache Kafka 
>>>> should align
>>>> with it.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Chris
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Jan 11, 2024, 14:50 fpapon <fp...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Justine,
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not sure to see the difference between "happy users" and vendors
>>>>> that advertise their products in some of the company list in the
>>>>> "powered by" page.
>>>>>
>>>>> Btw, my initial purpose of my proposal was to help user to find 
>>>>> support
>>>>> for production stuff rather than searching in google.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't think this is a bad thing because this is something that 
>>>>> already
>>>>> exist in many ASF projects like:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://hop.apache.org/community/commercial/
>>>>> https://struts.apache.org/commercial-support.html
>>>>> https://directory.apache.org/commercial-support.html
>>>>> https://tomee.apache.org/commercial-support.html
>>>>> https://plc4x.apache.org/users/commercial-support.html
>>>>> https://camel.apache.org/community/support/
>>>>> https://openmeetings.apache.org/commercial-support.html
>>>>> https://guacamole.apache.org/support/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/HADOOP2/Distributions+and+Commercial+Support 
>>>>
>>>> https://activemq.apache.org/supporthttps://karaf.apache.org/community.html 
>>>>
>>>>> https://netbeans.apache.org/front/main/help/commercial-support/
>>>>> https://royale.apache.org/royale-commercial-support/
>>>>>
>>>>> https://karaf.apache.org/community.html
>>>>>
>>>>> As I understand for now, the channel for users to find production
>>>>> support is:
>>>>>
>>>>> - The mailing list (user@kafka.apache.org / dev@kafka.apache.org)
>>>>>
>>>>> - The official #kafka  ASF Slack channel (may be we can add it on the
>>>>> website because I didn't find it in the website =>
>>>>> https://kafka.apache.org/contact)
>>>>>
>>>>> - Search in google for commercial support only
>>>>>
>>>>> I can update my PR to mention only the 3 points above for the "get
>>>>> support" page if people think that having a support page make sense.
>>>>>
>>>>> regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> François
>>>>>
>>>>> On 11/01/2024 19:34, Justine Olshan wrote:
>>>>>> I think there is a difference between the "Powered by" page and a 
>>>>>> page
>>>>> for
>>>>>> vendors to advertise their products and services.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The idea is that the companies on that page are "powered by" Kafka.
>>>> They
>>>>>> serve as examples of happy users of Kafka.
>>>>>> I don't think it is meant only as a place just for those 
>>>>>> companies to
>>>>>> advertise.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm a little confused by
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In this case, I'm ok to say that the commercial support section 
>>>>>>> in the
>>>>>> "Get support" is no need as we can use this page.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you plan to submit for this page, please include a description on
>>>> how
>>>>>> your company uses Kafka.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm happy to hear other folks' opinions on this page as well.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> Justine
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Jan 11, 2024 at 8:57 AM fpapon <fp...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> About the vendors list and neutrality, what is the policy of the
>>>>>>> "Powered by" page?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://kafka.apache.org/powered-by
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We can see company with logo, some are talking about their product
>>>>>>> (Agoora), some are offering services (Instaclustr, Aiven), and 
>>>>>>> we can
>>>>>>> also see some that just put their logo and a link to their website
>>>>>>> without any explanation (GoldmanSachs).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So as I understand and after reading the text in the footer of this
>>>>>>> page, every company can add themselves by providing a PR right?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Want to appear on this page?
>>>>>>> Submit a pull request or send a quick description of your 
>>>>>>> organization
>>>>>>> and usage to the mailing list and we'll add you."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In this case, I'm ok to say that the commercial support section 
>>>>>>> in the
>>>>>>> "Get support" is no need as we can use this page.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> regards,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> François
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 10/01/2024 19:03, Kenneth Eversole wrote:
>>>>>>>> I agree with Divji here and to be more pointed. I worry that if 
>>>>>>>> we go
>>>>>>> down
>>>>>>>> the path of adding vendors to a list it comes off as supporting 
>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>> product, not to mention could be a huge security risk for novice
>>>>> users. I
>>>>>>>> would rather this be a callout to other purely open source 
>>>>>>>> tooling,
>>>>> such
>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>> cruise control.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Divji brings up good question
>>>>>>>> 1.  What value does additional of this page bring to the users of
>>>>> Apache
>>>>>>>> Kafka?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think the community would be a better service to have a more
>>>>>>> synchronous
>>>>>>>> line of communication such as Slack/Discord and we call that out
>>>> here.
>>>>> It
>>>>>>>> would be more inline with other major open source projects.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ---
>>>>>>>> Kenneth Eversole
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jan 10, 2024 at 10:30 AM Divij Vaidya <
>>>> divijvaidya13@gmail.com
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I don't see a need for this. What additional information does 
>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>> provide
>>>>>>>>> over what can be found via a quick google search?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> My primary concern is that we are getting in the business of 
>>>>>>>>> listing
>>>>>>>>> vendors in the project site which brings it's own complications
>>>>> without
>>>>>>>>> adding much additional value for users. In the spirit of being
>>>> vendor
>>>>>>>>> neutral, I would try to avoid this as much as possible.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So, my question to you is:
>>>>>>>>> 1. What value does additional of this page bring to the users of
>>>>> Apache
>>>>>>>>> Kafka?
>>>>>>>>> 2. When a new PR is submitted to add a vendor, what criteria 
>>>>>>>>> do we
>>>>> have
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> decide whether to add them or not? If we keep a blanket 
>>>>>>>>> criteria of
>>>>>>>>> accepting all PRs, then we may end up in a situation where the 
>>>>>>>>> llink
>>>>>>>>> redirects to a phishing page or nefarious website. Hence, we 
>>>>>>>>> might
>>>>> have
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> at least perform some basic due diligence which adds overhead 
>>>>>>>>> to the
>>>>>>>>> resources of the community.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>>> Divij Vaidya
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jan 10, 2024 at 5:00 PM fpapon <fp...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> After starting a first thread on this topic (
>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/kkox33rhtjcdr5zztq3lzj7c5s7k9wsr), 
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>> would like to propose a PR:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/apache/kafka-site/pull/577
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The purpose of this proposal is to help users to find support 
>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>> sla,
>>>>>>>>>> training, consulting...whatever that is not provide by the
>>>> community
>>>>>>> as,
>>>>>>>>>> like we can already see in many ASF projects, no commercial 
>>>>>>>>>> support
>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>> provided by the foundation. I think it could help with the 
>>>>>>>>>> adoption
>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> growth of the project because the users
>>>>>>>>>> need commercial support for production issues.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If the community is agree about this idea and want to move
>>>> forward, I
>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>> add one company in the PR but everybody can add some by 
>>>>>>>>>> providing a
>>>>> new
>>>>>>>>> PR
>>>>>>>>>> to complete the list. If people want me to add other you can 
>>>>>>>>>> reply
>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>> thread because it will be better to have several company at the
>>>> first
>>>>>>>>>> publication of the page.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Just provide the company-name and a short description of the
>>>> service
>>>>>>>>> offer
>>>>>>>>>> around Apache Kafka. The information must be factual and
>>>>> informational
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>> nature and not be a marketing statement.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> regards,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> François
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>> François
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> François
>>>>>
>>>>>

Re: [PROPOSAL] Add commercial support page on website

[tison <wa...@gmail.com>]

FWIW - even if it's rejected by the Kafka PMC, you can maintain your
own page for such information and provide your personal comments on
them. If the object is to provide information and help users to make
decisions, it should help. Although you should do the SEO by yourself,
if the information is somehow neutral and valuable, you can ask the
@apachekafka Twitter (X) account to propagate it and provide a blog
for Kafka blogs.

This is the common way how third-party "evangelist" producing content
and get it promoted.

Best,
tison.

Matthias J. Sax <mj...@apache.org> 于2024年1月13日周六 07:35写道：
>
> François,
>
> thanks for starting this initiative. Personally, I don't think it's
> necessarily harmful for the project to add such a new page, however, I
> share the same concerns others raised already.
>
> I understand your motivation that people had issues finding commercial
> support, but I am not sure we can address this issue that way. I am also
> "worried" (for the lack of a better word) that the page might become
> long an unwieldy. In the end, any freelancer/consultant offering Kafka
> services would be able to get on the page, so we might get hundreds of
> entries, what also makes it impossible for users to find what they are
> looking for. Also, the services of different companies might vary
> drastically; should users read all these descriptions? I can also
> imagine that some companies offer their services only in some
> countries/regions making it even harder for user to find what they are
> looking for?
>
> Overall, it sounds more like a search optimization problem, and thus it
> seems out-of-scope what we can solve. As I said, I am not strictly
> against it, but I just don't see much value either.
>
>
> -Matthias
>
> On 1/11/24 12:55 PM, Francois Papon wrote:
> > Hi Justine,
> >
> > You're right, Kafka is a part of my business (training, consulting,
> > architecture design, sla...) and most of the time, users/customers said
> > that it was hard for them to find a commercial support (in France for my
> > case) after searching on the Kafka website (Google didn't help them).
> >
> > As an ASF member and PMC of several ASF projects, I know that this kind
> > of page exist so this is why I made this proposal for the Kafka project
> > because I really think that it can help users.
> >
> > As you suggest, I can submit a PR to be added on the "powered by" page.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > François
> >
> > On 11/01/2024 21:00, Justine Olshan wrote:
> >> Hey François,
> >>
> >> My point was that the companies on that page use kafka as part of their
> >> business. If you use Kafka as part of your business feel free to submit a
> >> PR to be added.
> >>
> >> I second Chris's point that other projects are not enough to require
> >> Kafka
> >> having such a support page.
> >>
> >> Justine
> >>
> >> On Thu, Jan 11, 2024 at 11:57 AM Chris Egerton <fe...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hi François,
> >>>
> >>> Is it an official policy of the ASF that projects provide a listing of
> >>> commercial support options for themselves? I understand that other
> >>> projects
> >>> have chosen to provide one, but this doesn't necessarily imply that all
> >>> projects should do the same, and I can't say I find this point very
> >>> convincing as a rebuttal to some of the good-faith concerns raised by
> >>> the
> >>> PMC and members of the community so far. However, if there's an official
> >>> ASF stance on this topic, then I acknowledge that Apache Kafka should
> >>> align
> >>> with it.
> >>>
> >>> Best,
> >>>
> >>> Chris
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Thu, Jan 11, 2024, 14:50 fpapon <fp...@apache.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Hi Justine,
> >>>>
> >>>> I'm not sure to see the difference between "happy users" and vendors
> >>>> that advertise their products in some of the company list in the
> >>>> "powered by" page.
> >>>>
> >>>> Btw, my initial purpose of my proposal was to help user to find support
> >>>> for production stuff rather than searching in google.
> >>>>
> >>>> I don't think this is a bad thing because this is something that
> >>>> already
> >>>> exist in many ASF projects like:
> >>>>
> >>>> https://hop.apache.org/community/commercial/
> >>>> https://struts.apache.org/commercial-support.html
> >>>> https://directory.apache.org/commercial-support.html
> >>>> https://tomee.apache.org/commercial-support.html
> >>>> https://plc4x.apache.org/users/commercial-support.html
> >>>> https://camel.apache.org/community/support/
> >>>> https://openmeetings.apache.org/commercial-support.html
> >>>> https://guacamole.apache.org/support/
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/HADOOP2/Distributions+and+Commercial+Support
> >>> https://activemq.apache.org/supporthttps://karaf.apache.org/community.html
> >>>> https://netbeans.apache.org/front/main/help/commercial-support/
> >>>> https://royale.apache.org/royale-commercial-support/
> >>>>
> >>>> https://karaf.apache.org/community.html
> >>>>
> >>>> As I understand for now, the channel for users to find production
> >>>> support is:
> >>>>
> >>>> - The mailing list (user@kafka.apache.org / dev@kafka.apache.org)
> >>>>
> >>>> - The official #kafka  ASF Slack channel (may be we can add it on the
> >>>> website because I didn't find it in the website =>
> >>>> https://kafka.apache.org/contact)
> >>>>
> >>>> - Search in google for commercial support only
> >>>>
> >>>> I can update my PR to mention only the 3 points above for the "get
> >>>> support" page if people think that having a support page make sense.
> >>>>
> >>>> regards,
> >>>>
> >>>> François
> >>>>
> >>>> On 11/01/2024 19:34, Justine Olshan wrote:
> >>>>> I think there is a difference between the "Powered by" page and a page
> >>>> for
> >>>>> vendors to advertise their products and services.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The idea is that the companies on that page are "powered by" Kafka.
> >>> They
> >>>>> serve as examples of happy users of Kafka.
> >>>>> I don't think it is meant only as a place just for those companies to
> >>>>> advertise.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I'm a little confused by
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> In this case, I'm ok to say that the commercial support section in
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>> "Get support" is no need as we can use this page.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> If you plan to submit for this page, please include a description on
> >>> how
> >>>>> your company uses Kafka.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I'm happy to hear other folks' opinions on this page as well.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>> Justine
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Thu, Jan 11, 2024 at 8:57 AM fpapon <fp...@apache.org> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Hi,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> About the vendors list and neutrality, what is the policy of the
> >>>>>> "Powered by" page?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> https://kafka.apache.org/powered-by
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> We can see company with logo, some are talking about their product
> >>>>>> (Agoora), some are offering services (Instaclustr, Aiven), and we can
> >>>>>> also see some that just put their logo and a link to their website
> >>>>>> without any explanation (GoldmanSachs).
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> So as I understand and after reading the text in the footer of this
> >>>>>> page, every company can add themselves by providing a PR right?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> "Want to appear on this page?
> >>>>>> Submit a pull request or send a quick description of your
> >>>>>> organization
> >>>>>> and usage to the mailing list and we'll add you."
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> In this case, I'm ok to say that the commercial support section in
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>> "Get support" is no need as we can use this page.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> regards,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> François
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On 10/01/2024 19:03, Kenneth Eversole wrote:
> >>>>>>> I agree with Divji here and to be more pointed. I worry that if
> >>>>>>> we go
> >>>>>> down
> >>>>>>> the path of adding vendors to a list it comes off as supporting
> >>>>>>> their
> >>>>>>> product, not to mention could be a huge security risk for novice
> >>>> users. I
> >>>>>>> would rather this be a callout to other purely open source tooling,
> >>>> such
> >>>>>> as
> >>>>>>> cruise control.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Divji brings up good question
> >>>>>>> 1.  What value does additional of this page bring to the users of
> >>>> Apache
> >>>>>>> Kafka?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I think the community would be a better service to have a more
> >>>>>> synchronous
> >>>>>>> line of communication such as Slack/Discord and we call that out
> >>> here.
> >>>> It
> >>>>>>> would be more inline with other major open source projects.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> ---
> >>>>>>> Kenneth Eversole
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Wed, Jan 10, 2024 at 10:30 AM Divij Vaidya <
> >>> divijvaidya13@gmail.com
> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I don't see a need for this. What additional information does this
> >>>>>> provide
> >>>>>>>> over what can be found via a quick google search?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> My primary concern is that we are getting in the business of
> >>>>>>>> listing
> >>>>>>>> vendors in the project site which brings it's own complications
> >>>> without
> >>>>>>>> adding much additional value for users. In the spirit of being
> >>> vendor
> >>>>>>>> neutral, I would try to avoid this as much as possible.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> So, my question to you is:
> >>>>>>>> 1. What value does additional of this page bring to the users of
> >>>> Apache
> >>>>>>>> Kafka?
> >>>>>>>> 2. When a new PR is submitted to add a vendor, what criteria do we
> >>>> have
> >>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>> decide whether to add them or not? If we keep a blanket criteria of
> >>>>>>>> accepting all PRs, then we may end up in a situation where the
> >>>>>>>> llink
> >>>>>>>> redirects to a phishing page or nefarious website. Hence, we might
> >>>> have
> >>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>> at least perform some basic due diligence which adds overhead to
> >>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>> resources of the community.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>> Divij Vaidya
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Wed, Jan 10, 2024 at 5:00 PM fpapon <fp...@apache.org> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Hi,
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> After starting a first thread on this topic (
> >>>>>>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/kkox33rhtjcdr5zztq3lzj7c5s7k9wsr),
> >>> I
> >>>>>>>>> would like to propose a PR:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> https://github.com/apache/kafka-site/pull/577
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> The purpose of this proposal is to help users to find support for
> >>>> sla,
> >>>>>>>>> training, consulting...whatever that is not provide by the
> >>> community
> >>>>>> as,
> >>>>>>>>> like we can already see in many ASF projects, no commercial
> >>>>>>>>> support
> >>>> is
> >>>>>>>>> provided by the foundation. I think it could help with the
> >>>>>>>>> adoption
> >>>> and
> >>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>> growth of the project because the users
> >>>>>>>>> need commercial support for production issues.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> If the community is agree about this idea and want to move
> >>> forward, I
> >>>>>>>> just
> >>>>>>>>> add one company in the PR but everybody can add some by
> >>>>>>>>> providing a
> >>>> new
> >>>>>>>> PR
> >>>>>>>>> to complete the list. If people want me to add other you can reply
> >>> to
> >>>>>>>> this
> >>>>>>>>> thread because it will be better to have several company at the
> >>> first
> >>>>>>>>> publication of the page.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Just provide the company-name and a short description of the
> >>> service
> >>>>>>>> offer
> >>>>>>>>> around Apache Kafka. The information must be factual and
> >>>> informational
> >>>>>> in
> >>>>>>>>> nature and not be a marketing statement.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> regards,
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> François
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> François
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> --
> >>>> François
> >>>>
> >>>>

Re: [PROPOSAL] Add commercial support page on website

["Matthias J. Sax" <mj...@apache.org>]

François,

thanks for starting this initiative. Personally, I don't think it's 
necessarily harmful for the project to add such a new page, however, I 
share the same concerns others raised already.

I understand your motivation that people had issues finding commercial 
support, but I am not sure we can address this issue that way. I am also 
"worried" (for the lack of a better word) that the page might become 
long an unwieldy. In the end, any freelancer/consultant offering Kafka 
services would be able to get on the page, so we might get hundreds of 
entries, what also makes it impossible for users to find what they are 
looking for. Also, the services of different companies might vary 
drastically; should users read all these descriptions? I can also 
imagine that some companies offer their services only in some 
countries/regions making it even harder for user to find what they are 
looking for?

Overall, it sounds more like a search optimization problem, and thus it 
seems out-of-scope what we can solve. As I said, I am not strictly 
against it, but I just don't see much value either.


-Matthias

On 1/11/24 12:55 PM, Francois Papon wrote:
> Hi Justine,
> 
> You're right, Kafka is a part of my business (training, consulting, 
> architecture design, sla...) and most of the time, users/customers said 
> that it was hard for them to find a commercial support (in France for my 
> case) after searching on the Kafka website (Google didn't help them).
> 
> As an ASF member and PMC of several ASF projects, I know that this kind 
> of page exist so this is why I made this proposal for the Kafka project 
> because I really think that it can help users.
> 
> As you suggest, I can submit a PR to be added on the "powered by" page.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> François
> 
> On 11/01/2024 21:00, Justine Olshan wrote:
>> Hey François,
>>
>> My point was that the companies on that page use kafka as part of their
>> business. If you use Kafka as part of your business feel free to submit a
>> PR to be added.
>>
>> I second Chris's point that other projects are not enough to require 
>> Kafka
>> having such a support page.
>>
>> Justine
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 11, 2024 at 11:57 AM Chris Egerton <fe...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi François,
>>>
>>> Is it an official policy of the ASF that projects provide a listing of
>>> commercial support options for themselves? I understand that other 
>>> projects
>>> have chosen to provide one, but this doesn't necessarily imply that all
>>> projects should do the same, and I can't say I find this point very
>>> convincing as a rebuttal to some of the good-faith concerns raised by 
>>> the
>>> PMC and members of the community so far. However, if there's an official
>>> ASF stance on this topic, then I acknowledge that Apache Kafka should 
>>> align
>>> with it.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Chris
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jan 11, 2024, 14:50 fpapon <fp...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Justine,
>>>>
>>>> I'm not sure to see the difference between "happy users" and vendors
>>>> that advertise their products in some of the company list in the
>>>> "powered by" page.
>>>>
>>>> Btw, my initial purpose of my proposal was to help user to find support
>>>> for production stuff rather than searching in google.
>>>>
>>>> I don't think this is a bad thing because this is something that 
>>>> already
>>>> exist in many ASF projects like:
>>>>
>>>> https://hop.apache.org/community/commercial/
>>>> https://struts.apache.org/commercial-support.html
>>>> https://directory.apache.org/commercial-support.html
>>>> https://tomee.apache.org/commercial-support.html
>>>> https://plc4x.apache.org/users/commercial-support.html
>>>> https://camel.apache.org/community/support/
>>>> https://openmeetings.apache.org/commercial-support.html
>>>> https://guacamole.apache.org/support/
>>>>
>>>>
>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/HADOOP2/Distributions+and+Commercial+Support
>>> https://activemq.apache.org/supporthttps://karaf.apache.org/community.html
>>>> https://netbeans.apache.org/front/main/help/commercial-support/
>>>> https://royale.apache.org/royale-commercial-support/
>>>>
>>>> https://karaf.apache.org/community.html
>>>>
>>>> As I understand for now, the channel for users to find production
>>>> support is:
>>>>
>>>> - The mailing list (user@kafka.apache.org / dev@kafka.apache.org)
>>>>
>>>> - The official #kafka  ASF Slack channel (may be we can add it on the
>>>> website because I didn't find it in the website =>
>>>> https://kafka.apache.org/contact)
>>>>
>>>> - Search in google for commercial support only
>>>>
>>>> I can update my PR to mention only the 3 points above for the "get
>>>> support" page if people think that having a support page make sense.
>>>>
>>>> regards,
>>>>
>>>> François
>>>>
>>>> On 11/01/2024 19:34, Justine Olshan wrote:
>>>>> I think there is a difference between the "Powered by" page and a page
>>>> for
>>>>> vendors to advertise their products and services.
>>>>>
>>>>> The idea is that the companies on that page are "powered by" Kafka.
>>> They
>>>>> serve as examples of happy users of Kafka.
>>>>> I don't think it is meant only as a place just for those companies to
>>>>> advertise.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm a little confused by
>>>>>
>>>>>> In this case, I'm ok to say that the commercial support section in 
>>>>>> the
>>>>> "Get support" is no need as we can use this page.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you plan to submit for this page, please include a description on
>>> how
>>>>> your company uses Kafka.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm happy to hear other folks' opinions on this page as well.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Justine
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Jan 11, 2024 at 8:57 AM fpapon <fp...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> About the vendors list and neutrality, what is the policy of the
>>>>>> "Powered by" page?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://kafka.apache.org/powered-by
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We can see company with logo, some are talking about their product
>>>>>> (Agoora), some are offering services (Instaclustr, Aiven), and we can
>>>>>> also see some that just put their logo and a link to their website
>>>>>> without any explanation (GoldmanSachs).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So as I understand and after reading the text in the footer of this
>>>>>> page, every company can add themselves by providing a PR right?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Want to appear on this page?
>>>>>> Submit a pull request or send a quick description of your 
>>>>>> organization
>>>>>> and usage to the mailing list and we'll add you."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In this case, I'm ok to say that the commercial support section in 
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> "Get support" is no need as we can use this page.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> François
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 10/01/2024 19:03, Kenneth Eversole wrote:
>>>>>>> I agree with Divji here and to be more pointed. I worry that if 
>>>>>>> we go
>>>>>> down
>>>>>>> the path of adding vendors to a list it comes off as supporting 
>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>> product, not to mention could be a huge security risk for novice
>>>> users. I
>>>>>>> would rather this be a callout to other purely open source tooling,
>>>> such
>>>>>> as
>>>>>>> cruise control.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Divji brings up good question
>>>>>>> 1.  What value does additional of this page bring to the users of
>>>> Apache
>>>>>>> Kafka?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think the community would be a better service to have a more
>>>>>> synchronous
>>>>>>> line of communication such as Slack/Discord and we call that out
>>> here.
>>>> It
>>>>>>> would be more inline with other major open source projects.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ---
>>>>>>> Kenneth Eversole
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, Jan 10, 2024 at 10:30 AM Divij Vaidya <
>>> divijvaidya13@gmail.com
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't see a need for this. What additional information does this
>>>>>> provide
>>>>>>>> over what can be found via a quick google search?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My primary concern is that we are getting in the business of 
>>>>>>>> listing
>>>>>>>> vendors in the project site which brings it's own complications
>>>> without
>>>>>>>> adding much additional value for users. In the spirit of being
>>> vendor
>>>>>>>> neutral, I would try to avoid this as much as possible.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So, my question to you is:
>>>>>>>> 1. What value does additional of this page bring to the users of
>>>> Apache
>>>>>>>> Kafka?
>>>>>>>> 2. When a new PR is submitted to add a vendor, what criteria do we
>>>> have
>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> decide whether to add them or not? If we keep a blanket criteria of
>>>>>>>> accepting all PRs, then we may end up in a situation where the 
>>>>>>>> llink
>>>>>>>> redirects to a phishing page or nefarious website. Hence, we might
>>>> have
>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> at least perform some basic due diligence which adds overhead to 
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> resources of the community.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>> Divij Vaidya
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jan 10, 2024 at 5:00 PM fpapon <fp...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> After starting a first thread on this topic (
>>>>>>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/kkox33rhtjcdr5zztq3lzj7c5s7k9wsr),
>>> I
>>>>>>>>> would like to propose a PR:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/apache/kafka-site/pull/577
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The purpose of this proposal is to help users to find support for
>>>> sla,
>>>>>>>>> training, consulting...whatever that is not provide by the
>>> community
>>>>>> as,
>>>>>>>>> like we can already see in many ASF projects, no commercial 
>>>>>>>>> support
>>>> is
>>>>>>>>> provided by the foundation. I think it could help with the 
>>>>>>>>> adoption
>>>> and
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> growth of the project because the users
>>>>>>>>> need commercial support for production issues.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If the community is agree about this idea and want to move
>>> forward, I
>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>> add one company in the PR but everybody can add some by 
>>>>>>>>> providing a
>>>> new
>>>>>>>> PR
>>>>>>>>> to complete the list. If people want me to add other you can reply
>>> to
>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>> thread because it will be better to have several company at the
>>> first
>>>>>>>>> publication of the page.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Just provide the company-name and a short description of the
>>> service
>>>>>>>> offer
>>>>>>>>> around Apache Kafka. The information must be factual and
>>>> informational
>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>> nature and not be a marketing statement.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> regards,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> François
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>> François
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>> -- 
>>>> François
>>>>
>>>>

Re: [PROPOSAL] Add commercial support page on website

["Matthias J. Sax" <mj...@apache.org>]

François,

thanks for starting this initiative. Personally, I don't think it's 
necessarily harmful for the project to add such a new page, however, I 
share the same concerns others raised already.

I understand your motivation that people had issues finding commercial 
support, but I am not sure we can address this issue that way. I am also 
"worried" (for the lack of a better word) that the page might become 
long an unwieldy. In the end, any freelancer/consultant offering Kafka 
services would be able to get on the page, so we might get hundreds of 
entries, what also makes it impossible for users to find what they are 
looking for. Also, the services of different companies might vary 
drastically; should users read all these descriptions? I can also 
imagine that some companies offer their services only in some 
countries/regions making it even harder for user to find what they are 
looking for?

Overall, it sounds more like a search optimization problem, and thus it 
seems out-of-scope what we can solve. As I said, I am not strictly 
against it, but I just don't see much value either.


-Matthias

On 1/11/24 12:55 PM, Francois Papon wrote:
> Hi Justine,
> 
> You're right, Kafka is a part of my business (training, consulting, 
> architecture design, sla...) and most of the time, users/customers said 
> that it was hard for them to find a commercial support (in France for my 
> case) after searching on the Kafka website (Google didn't help them).
> 
> As an ASF member and PMC of several ASF projects, I know that this kind 
> of page exist so this is why I made this proposal for the Kafka project 
> because I really think that it can help users.
> 
> As you suggest, I can submit a PR to be added on the "powered by" page.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> François
> 
> On 11/01/2024 21:00, Justine Olshan wrote:
>> Hey François,
>>
>> My point was that the companies on that page use kafka as part of their
>> business. If you use Kafka as part of your business feel free to submit a
>> PR to be added.
>>
>> I second Chris's point that other projects are not enough to require 
>> Kafka
>> having such a support page.
>>
>> Justine
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 11, 2024 at 11:57 AM Chris Egerton <fe...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi François,
>>>
>>> Is it an official policy of the ASF that projects provide a listing of
>>> commercial support options for themselves? I understand that other 
>>> projects
>>> have chosen to provide one, but this doesn't necessarily imply that all
>>> projects should do the same, and I can't say I find this point very
>>> convincing as a rebuttal to some of the good-faith concerns raised by 
>>> the
>>> PMC and members of the community so far. However, if there's an official
>>> ASF stance on this topic, then I acknowledge that Apache Kafka should 
>>> align
>>> with it.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Chris
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jan 11, 2024, 14:50 fpapon <fp...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Justine,
>>>>
>>>> I'm not sure to see the difference between "happy users" and vendors
>>>> that advertise their products in some of the company list in the
>>>> "powered by" page.
>>>>
>>>> Btw, my initial purpose of my proposal was to help user to find support
>>>> for production stuff rather than searching in google.
>>>>
>>>> I don't think this is a bad thing because this is something that 
>>>> already
>>>> exist in many ASF projects like:
>>>>
>>>> https://hop.apache.org/community/commercial/
>>>> https://struts.apache.org/commercial-support.html
>>>> https://directory.apache.org/commercial-support.html
>>>> https://tomee.apache.org/commercial-support.html
>>>> https://plc4x.apache.org/users/commercial-support.html
>>>> https://camel.apache.org/community/support/
>>>> https://openmeetings.apache.org/commercial-support.html
>>>> https://guacamole.apache.org/support/
>>>>
>>>>
>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/HADOOP2/Distributions+and+Commercial+Support
>>> https://activemq.apache.org/supporthttps://karaf.apache.org/community.html
>>>> https://netbeans.apache.org/front/main/help/commercial-support/
>>>> https://royale.apache.org/royale-commercial-support/
>>>>
>>>> https://karaf.apache.org/community.html
>>>>
>>>> As I understand for now, the channel for users to find production
>>>> support is:
>>>>
>>>> - The mailing list (user@kafka.apache.org / dev@kafka.apache.org)
>>>>
>>>> - The official #kafka  ASF Slack channel (may be we can add it on the
>>>> website because I didn't find it in the website =>
>>>> https://kafka.apache.org/contact)
>>>>
>>>> - Search in google for commercial support only
>>>>
>>>> I can update my PR to mention only the 3 points above for the "get
>>>> support" page if people think that having a support page make sense.
>>>>
>>>> regards,
>>>>
>>>> François
>>>>
>>>> On 11/01/2024 19:34, Justine Olshan wrote:
>>>>> I think there is a difference between the "Powered by" page and a page
>>>> for
>>>>> vendors to advertise their products and services.
>>>>>
>>>>> The idea is that the companies on that page are "powered by" Kafka.
>>> They
>>>>> serve as examples of happy users of Kafka.
>>>>> I don't think it is meant only as a place just for those companies to
>>>>> advertise.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm a little confused by
>>>>>
>>>>>> In this case, I'm ok to say that the commercial support section in 
>>>>>> the
>>>>> "Get support" is no need as we can use this page.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you plan to submit for this page, please include a description on
>>> how
>>>>> your company uses Kafka.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm happy to hear other folks' opinions on this page as well.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Justine
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Jan 11, 2024 at 8:57 AM fpapon <fp...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> About the vendors list and neutrality, what is the policy of the
>>>>>> "Powered by" page?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://kafka.apache.org/powered-by
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We can see company with logo, some are talking about their product
>>>>>> (Agoora), some are offering services (Instaclustr, Aiven), and we can
>>>>>> also see some that just put their logo and a link to their website
>>>>>> without any explanation (GoldmanSachs).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So as I understand and after reading the text in the footer of this
>>>>>> page, every company can add themselves by providing a PR right?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Want to appear on this page?
>>>>>> Submit a pull request or send a quick description of your 
>>>>>> organization
>>>>>> and usage to the mailing list and we'll add you."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In this case, I'm ok to say that the commercial support section in 
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> "Get support" is no need as we can use this page.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> François
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 10/01/2024 19:03, Kenneth Eversole wrote:
>>>>>>> I agree with Divji here and to be more pointed. I worry that if 
>>>>>>> we go
>>>>>> down
>>>>>>> the path of adding vendors to a list it comes off as supporting 
>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>> product, not to mention could be a huge security risk for novice
>>>> users. I
>>>>>>> would rather this be a callout to other purely open source tooling,
>>>> such
>>>>>> as
>>>>>>> cruise control.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Divji brings up good question
>>>>>>> 1.  What value does additional of this page bring to the users of
>>>> Apache
>>>>>>> Kafka?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think the community would be a better service to have a more
>>>>>> synchronous
>>>>>>> line of communication such as Slack/Discord and we call that out
>>> here.
>>>> It
>>>>>>> would be more inline with other major open source projects.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ---
>>>>>>> Kenneth Eversole
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, Jan 10, 2024 at 10:30 AM Divij Vaidya <
>>> divijvaidya13@gmail.com
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't see a need for this. What additional information does this
>>>>>> provide
>>>>>>>> over what can be found via a quick google search?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My primary concern is that we are getting in the business of 
>>>>>>>> listing
>>>>>>>> vendors in the project site which brings it's own complications
>>>> without
>>>>>>>> adding much additional value for users. In the spirit of being
>>> vendor
>>>>>>>> neutral, I would try to avoid this as much as possible.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So, my question to you is:
>>>>>>>> 1. What value does additional of this page bring to the users of
>>>> Apache
>>>>>>>> Kafka?
>>>>>>>> 2. When a new PR is submitted to add a vendor, what criteria do we
>>>> have
>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> decide whether to add them or not? If we keep a blanket criteria of
>>>>>>>> accepting all PRs, then we may end up in a situation where the 
>>>>>>>> llink
>>>>>>>> redirects to a phishing page or nefarious website. Hence, we might
>>>> have
>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> at least perform some basic due diligence which adds overhead to 
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> resources of the community.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>> Divij Vaidya
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jan 10, 2024 at 5:00 PM fpapon <fp...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> After starting a first thread on this topic (
>>>>>>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/kkox33rhtjcdr5zztq3lzj7c5s7k9wsr),
>>> I
>>>>>>>>> would like to propose a PR:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/apache/kafka-site/pull/577
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The purpose of this proposal is to help users to find support for
>>>> sla,
>>>>>>>>> training, consulting...whatever that is not provide by the
>>> community
>>>>>> as,
>>>>>>>>> like we can already see in many ASF projects, no commercial 
>>>>>>>>> support
>>>> is
>>>>>>>>> provided by the foundation. I think it could help with the 
>>>>>>>>> adoption
>>>> and
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> growth of the project because the users
>>>>>>>>> need commercial support for production issues.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If the community is agree about this idea and want to move
>>> forward, I
>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>> add one company in the PR but everybody can add some by 
>>>>>>>>> providing a
>>>> new
>>>>>>>> PR
>>>>>>>>> to complete the list. If people want me to add other you can reply
>>> to
>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>> thread because it will be better to have several company at the
>>> first
>>>>>>>>> publication of the page.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Just provide the company-name and a short description of the
>>> service
>>>>>>>> offer
>>>>>>>>> around Apache Kafka. The information must be factual and
>>>> informational
>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>> nature and not be a marketing statement.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> regards,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> François
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>> François
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>> -- 
>>>> François
>>>>
>>>>

Re: [PROPOSAL] Add commercial support page on website

[Francois Papon <fr...@openobject.fr>]

Hi Justine,

You're right, Kafka is a part of my business (training, consulting, 
architecture design, sla...) and most of the time, users/customers said 
that it was hard for them to find a commercial support (in France for my 
case) after searching on the Kafka website (Google didn't help them).

As an ASF member and PMC of several ASF projects, I know that this kind 
of page exist so this is why I made this proposal for the Kafka project 
because I really think that it can help users.

As you suggest, I can submit a PR to be added on the "powered by" page.

Thanks,

François

On 11/01/2024 21:00, Justine Olshan wrote:
> Hey François,
>
> My point was that the companies on that page use kafka as part of their
> business. If you use Kafka as part of your business feel free to submit a
> PR to be added.
>
> I second Chris's point that other projects are not enough to require Kafka
> having such a support page.
>
> Justine
>
> On Thu, Jan 11, 2024 at 11:57 AM Chris Egerton <fe...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi François,
>>
>> Is it an official policy of the ASF that projects provide a listing of
>> commercial support options for themselves? I understand that other projects
>> have chosen to provide one, but this doesn't necessarily imply that all
>> projects should do the same, and I can't say I find this point very
>> convincing as a rebuttal to some of the good-faith concerns raised by the
>> PMC and members of the community so far. However, if there's an official
>> ASF stance on this topic, then I acknowledge that Apache Kafka should align
>> with it.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Chris
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 11, 2024, 14:50 fpapon <fp...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Justine,
>>>
>>> I'm not sure to see the difference between "happy users" and vendors
>>> that advertise their products in some of the company list in the
>>> "powered by" page.
>>>
>>> Btw, my initial purpose of my proposal was to help user to find support
>>> for production stuff rather than searching in google.
>>>
>>> I don't think this is a bad thing because this is something that already
>>> exist in many ASF projects like:
>>>
>>> https://hop.apache.org/community/commercial/
>>> https://struts.apache.org/commercial-support.html
>>> https://directory.apache.org/commercial-support.html
>>> https://tomee.apache.org/commercial-support.html
>>> https://plc4x.apache.org/users/commercial-support.html
>>> https://camel.apache.org/community/support/
>>> https://openmeetings.apache.org/commercial-support.html
>>> https://guacamole.apache.org/support/
>>>
>>>
>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/HADOOP2/Distributions+and+Commercial+Support
>> https://activemq.apache.org/supporthttps://karaf.apache.org/community.html
>>> https://netbeans.apache.org/front/main/help/commercial-support/
>>> https://royale.apache.org/royale-commercial-support/
>>>
>>> https://karaf.apache.org/community.html
>>>
>>> As I understand for now, the channel for users to find production
>>> support is:
>>>
>>> - The mailing list (user@kafka.apache.org / dev@kafka.apache.org)
>>>
>>> - The official #kafka  ASF Slack channel (may be we can add it on the
>>> website because I didn't find it in the website =>
>>> https://kafka.apache.org/contact)
>>>
>>> - Search in google for commercial support only
>>>
>>> I can update my PR to mention only the 3 points above for the "get
>>> support" page if people think that having a support page make sense.
>>>
>>> regards,
>>>
>>> François
>>>
>>> On 11/01/2024 19:34, Justine Olshan wrote:
>>>> I think there is a difference between the "Powered by" page and a page
>>> for
>>>> vendors to advertise their products and services.
>>>>
>>>> The idea is that the companies on that page are "powered by" Kafka.
>> They
>>>> serve as examples of happy users of Kafka.
>>>> I don't think it is meant only as a place just for those companies to
>>>> advertise.
>>>>
>>>> I'm a little confused by
>>>>
>>>>> In this case, I'm ok to say that the commercial support section in the
>>>> "Get support" is no need as we can use this page.
>>>>
>>>> If you plan to submit for this page, please include a description on
>> how
>>>> your company uses Kafka.
>>>>
>>>> I'm happy to hear other folks' opinions on this page as well.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Justine
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Jan 11, 2024 at 8:57 AM fpapon <fp...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> About the vendors list and neutrality, what is the policy of the
>>>>> "Powered by" page?
>>>>>
>>>>> https://kafka.apache.org/powered-by
>>>>>
>>>>> We can see company with logo, some are talking about their product
>>>>> (Agoora), some are offering services (Instaclustr, Aiven), and we can
>>>>> also see some that just put their logo and a link to their website
>>>>> without any explanation (GoldmanSachs).
>>>>>
>>>>> So as I understand and after reading the text in the footer of this
>>>>> page, every company can add themselves by providing a PR right?
>>>>>
>>>>> "Want to appear on this page?
>>>>> Submit a pull request or send a quick description of your organization
>>>>> and usage to the mailing list and we'll add you."
>>>>>
>>>>> In this case, I'm ok to say that the commercial support section in the
>>>>> "Get support" is no need as we can use this page.
>>>>>
>>>>> regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> François
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 10/01/2024 19:03, Kenneth Eversole wrote:
>>>>>> I agree with Divji here and to be more pointed. I worry that if we go
>>>>> down
>>>>>> the path of adding vendors to a list it comes off as supporting their
>>>>>> product, not to mention could be a huge security risk for novice
>>> users. I
>>>>>> would rather this be a callout to other purely open source tooling,
>>> such
>>>>> as
>>>>>> cruise control.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Divji brings up good question
>>>>>> 1.  What value does additional of this page bring to the users of
>>> Apache
>>>>>> Kafka?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think the community would be a better service to have a more
>>>>> synchronous
>>>>>> line of communication such as Slack/Discord and we call that out
>> here.
>>> It
>>>>>> would be more inline with other major open source projects.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ---
>>>>>> Kenneth Eversole
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Jan 10, 2024 at 10:30 AM Divij Vaidya <
>> divijvaidya13@gmail.com
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't see a need for this. What additional information does this
>>>>> provide
>>>>>>> over what can be found via a quick google search?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My primary concern is that we are getting in the business of listing
>>>>>>> vendors in the project site which brings it's own complications
>>> without
>>>>>>> adding much additional value for users. In the spirit of being
>> vendor
>>>>>>> neutral, I would try to avoid this as much as possible.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So, my question to you is:
>>>>>>> 1. What value does additional of this page bring to the users of
>>> Apache
>>>>>>> Kafka?
>>>>>>> 2. When a new PR is submitted to add a vendor, what criteria do we
>>> have
>>>>> to
>>>>>>> decide whether to add them or not? If we keep a blanket criteria of
>>>>>>> accepting all PRs, then we may end up in a situation where the llink
>>>>>>> redirects to a phishing page or nefarious website. Hence, we might
>>> have
>>>>> to
>>>>>>> at least perform some basic due diligence which adds overhead to the
>>>>>>> resources of the community.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Divij Vaidya
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, Jan 10, 2024 at 5:00 PM fpapon <fp...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> After starting a first thread on this topic (
>>>>>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/kkox33rhtjcdr5zztq3lzj7c5s7k9wsr),
>> I
>>>>>>>> would like to propose a PR:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://github.com/apache/kafka-site/pull/577
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The purpose of this proposal is to help users to find support for
>>> sla,
>>>>>>>> training, consulting...whatever that is not provide by the
>> community
>>>>> as,
>>>>>>>> like we can already see in many ASF projects, no commercial support
>>> is
>>>>>>>> provided by the foundation. I think it could help with the adoption
>>> and
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> growth of the project because the users
>>>>>>>> need commercial support for production issues.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If the community is agree about this idea and want to move
>> forward, I
>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>> add one company in the PR but everybody can add some by providing a
>>> new
>>>>>>> PR
>>>>>>>> to complete the list. If people want me to add other you can reply
>> to
>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>> thread because it will be better to have several company at the
>> first
>>>>>>>> publication of the page.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Just provide the company-name and a short description of the
>> service
>>>>>>> offer
>>>>>>>> around Apache Kafka. The information must be factual and
>>> informational
>>>>> in
>>>>>>>> nature and not be a marketing statement.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> regards,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> François
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> --
>>>>> François
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> --
>>> --
>>> François
>>>
>>>

Re: [PROPOSAL] Add commercial support page on website

[Francois Papon <fr...@openobject.fr>]

Hi Justine,

You're right, Kafka is a part of my business (training, consulting, 
architecture design, sla...) and most of the time, users/customers said 
that it was hard for them to find a commercial support (in France for my 
case) after searching on the Kafka website (Google didn't help them).

As an ASF member and PMC of several ASF projects, I know that this kind 
of page exist so this is why I made this proposal for the Kafka project 
because I really think that it can help users.

As you suggest, I can submit a PR to be added on the "powered by" page.

Thanks,

François

On 11/01/2024 21:00, Justine Olshan wrote:
> Hey François,
>
> My point was that the companies on that page use kafka as part of their
> business. If you use Kafka as part of your business feel free to submit a
> PR to be added.
>
> I second Chris's point that other projects are not enough to require Kafka
> having such a support page.
>
> Justine
>
> On Thu, Jan 11, 2024 at 11:57 AM Chris Egerton <fe...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi François,
>>
>> Is it an official policy of the ASF that projects provide a listing of
>> commercial support options for themselves? I understand that other projects
>> have chosen to provide one, but this doesn't necessarily imply that all
>> projects should do the same, and I can't say I find this point very
>> convincing as a rebuttal to some of the good-faith concerns raised by the
>> PMC and members of the community so far. However, if there's an official
>> ASF stance on this topic, then I acknowledge that Apache Kafka should align
>> with it.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Chris
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 11, 2024, 14:50 fpapon <fp...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Justine,
>>>
>>> I'm not sure to see the difference between "happy users" and vendors
>>> that advertise their products in some of the company list in the
>>> "powered by" page.
>>>
>>> Btw, my initial purpose of my proposal was to help user to find support
>>> for production stuff rather than searching in google.
>>>
>>> I don't think this is a bad thing because this is something that already
>>> exist in many ASF projects like:
>>>
>>> https://hop.apache.org/community/commercial/
>>> https://struts.apache.org/commercial-support.html
>>> https://directory.apache.org/commercial-support.html
>>> https://tomee.apache.org/commercial-support.html
>>> https://plc4x.apache.org/users/commercial-support.html
>>> https://camel.apache.org/community/support/
>>> https://openmeetings.apache.org/commercial-support.html
>>> https://guacamole.apache.org/support/
>>>
>>>
>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/HADOOP2/Distributions+and+Commercial+Support
>> https://activemq.apache.org/supporthttps://karaf.apache.org/community.html
>>> https://netbeans.apache.org/front/main/help/commercial-support/
>>> https://royale.apache.org/royale-commercial-support/
>>>
>>> https://karaf.apache.org/community.html
>>>
>>> As I understand for now, the channel for users to find production
>>> support is:
>>>
>>> - The mailing list (user@kafka.apache.org / dev@kafka.apache.org)
>>>
>>> - The official #kafka  ASF Slack channel (may be we can add it on the
>>> website because I didn't find it in the website =>
>>> https://kafka.apache.org/contact)
>>>
>>> - Search in google for commercial support only
>>>
>>> I can update my PR to mention only the 3 points above for the "get
>>> support" page if people think that having a support page make sense.
>>>
>>> regards,
>>>
>>> François
>>>
>>> On 11/01/2024 19:34, Justine Olshan wrote:
>>>> I think there is a difference between the "Powered by" page and a page
>>> for
>>>> vendors to advertise their products and services.
>>>>
>>>> The idea is that the companies on that page are "powered by" Kafka.
>> They
>>>> serve as examples of happy users of Kafka.
>>>> I don't think it is meant only as a place just for those companies to
>>>> advertise.
>>>>
>>>> I'm a little confused by
>>>>
>>>>> In this case, I'm ok to say that the commercial support section in the
>>>> "Get support" is no need as we can use this page.
>>>>
>>>> If you plan to submit for this page, please include a description on
>> how
>>>> your company uses Kafka.
>>>>
>>>> I'm happy to hear other folks' opinions on this page as well.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Justine
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Jan 11, 2024 at 8:57 AM fpapon <fp...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> About the vendors list and neutrality, what is the policy of the
>>>>> "Powered by" page?
>>>>>
>>>>> https://kafka.apache.org/powered-by
>>>>>
>>>>> We can see company with logo, some are talking about their product
>>>>> (Agoora), some are offering services (Instaclustr, Aiven), and we can
>>>>> also see some that just put their logo and a link to their website
>>>>> without any explanation (GoldmanSachs).
>>>>>
>>>>> So as I understand and after reading the text in the footer of this
>>>>> page, every company can add themselves by providing a PR right?
>>>>>
>>>>> "Want to appear on this page?
>>>>> Submit a pull request or send a quick description of your organization
>>>>> and usage to the mailing list and we'll add you."
>>>>>
>>>>> In this case, I'm ok to say that the commercial support section in the
>>>>> "Get support" is no need as we can use this page.
>>>>>
>>>>> regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> François
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 10/01/2024 19:03, Kenneth Eversole wrote:
>>>>>> I agree with Divji here and to be more pointed. I worry that if we go
>>>>> down
>>>>>> the path of adding vendors to a list it comes off as supporting their
>>>>>> product, not to mention could be a huge security risk for novice
>>> users. I
>>>>>> would rather this be a callout to other purely open source tooling,
>>> such
>>>>> as
>>>>>> cruise control.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Divji brings up good question
>>>>>> 1.  What value does additional of this page bring to the users of
>>> Apache
>>>>>> Kafka?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think the community would be a better service to have a more
>>>>> synchronous
>>>>>> line of communication such as Slack/Discord and we call that out
>> here.
>>> It
>>>>>> would be more inline with other major open source projects.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ---
>>>>>> Kenneth Eversole
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Jan 10, 2024 at 10:30 AM Divij Vaidya <
>> divijvaidya13@gmail.com
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't see a need for this. What additional information does this
>>>>> provide
>>>>>>> over what can be found via a quick google search?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My primary concern is that we are getting in the business of listing
>>>>>>> vendors in the project site which brings it's own complications
>>> without
>>>>>>> adding much additional value for users. In the spirit of being
>> vendor
>>>>>>> neutral, I would try to avoid this as much as possible.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So, my question to you is:
>>>>>>> 1. What value does additional of this page bring to the users of
>>> Apache
>>>>>>> Kafka?
>>>>>>> 2. When a new PR is submitted to add a vendor, what criteria do we
>>> have
>>>>> to
>>>>>>> decide whether to add them or not? If we keep a blanket criteria of
>>>>>>> accepting all PRs, then we may end up in a situation where the llink
>>>>>>> redirects to a phishing page or nefarious website. Hence, we might
>>> have
>>>>> to
>>>>>>> at least perform some basic due diligence which adds overhead to the
>>>>>>> resources of the community.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Divij Vaidya
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, Jan 10, 2024 at 5:00 PM fpapon <fp...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> After starting a first thread on this topic (
>>>>>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/kkox33rhtjcdr5zztq3lzj7c5s7k9wsr),
>> I
>>>>>>>> would like to propose a PR:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://github.com/apache/kafka-site/pull/577
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The purpose of this proposal is to help users to find support for
>>> sla,
>>>>>>>> training, consulting...whatever that is not provide by the
>> community
>>>>> as,
>>>>>>>> like we can already see in many ASF projects, no commercial support
>>> is
>>>>>>>> provided by the foundation. I think it could help with the adoption
>>> and
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> growth of the project because the users
>>>>>>>> need commercial support for production issues.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If the community is agree about this idea and want to move
>> forward, I
>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>> add one company in the PR but everybody can add some by providing a
>>> new
>>>>>>> PR
>>>>>>>> to complete the list. If people want me to add other you can reply
>> to
>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>> thread because it will be better to have several company at the
>> first
>>>>>>>> publication of the page.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Just provide the company-name and a short description of the
>> service
>>>>>>> offer
>>>>>>>> around Apache Kafka. The information must be factual and
>>> informational
>>>>> in
>>>>>>>> nature and not be a marketing statement.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> regards,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> François
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> --
>>>>> François
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> --
>>> --
>>> François
>>>
>>>

Re: [PROPOSAL] Add commercial support page on website

[Justine Olshan <jo...@confluent.io.INVALID>]

Hey François,

My point was that the companies on that page use kafka as part of their
business. If you use Kafka as part of your business feel free to submit a
PR to be added.

I second Chris's point that other projects are not enough to require Kafka
having such a support page.

Justine

On Thu, Jan 11, 2024 at 11:57 AM Chris Egerton <fe...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hi François,
>
> Is it an official policy of the ASF that projects provide a listing of
> commercial support options for themselves? I understand that other projects
> have chosen to provide one, but this doesn't necessarily imply that all
> projects should do the same, and I can't say I find this point very
> convincing as a rebuttal to some of the good-faith concerns raised by the
> PMC and members of the community so far. However, if there's an official
> ASF stance on this topic, then I acknowledge that Apache Kafka should align
> with it.
>
> Best,
>
> Chris
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 11, 2024, 14:50 fpapon <fp...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > Hi Justine,
> >
> > I'm not sure to see the difference between "happy users" and vendors
> > that advertise their products in some of the company list in the
> > "powered by" page.
> >
> > Btw, my initial purpose of my proposal was to help user to find support
> > for production stuff rather than searching in google.
> >
> > I don't think this is a bad thing because this is something that already
> > exist in many ASF projects like:
> >
> > https://hop.apache.org/community/commercial/
> > https://struts.apache.org/commercial-support.html
> > https://directory.apache.org/commercial-support.html
> > https://tomee.apache.org/commercial-support.html
> > https://plc4x.apache.org/users/commercial-support.html
> > https://camel.apache.org/community/support/
> > https://openmeetings.apache.org/commercial-support.html
> > https://guacamole.apache.org/support/
> >
> >
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/HADOOP2/Distributions+and+Commercial+Support
> >
> https://activemq.apache.org/supporthttps://karaf.apache.org/community.html
> > https://netbeans.apache.org/front/main/help/commercial-support/
> > https://royale.apache.org/royale-commercial-support/
> >
> > https://karaf.apache.org/community.html
> >
> > As I understand for now, the channel for users to find production
> > support is:
> >
> > - The mailing list (user@kafka.apache.org / dev@kafka.apache.org)
> >
> > - The official #kafka  ASF Slack channel (may be we can add it on the
> > website because I didn't find it in the website =>
> > https://kafka.apache.org/contact)
> >
> > - Search in google for commercial support only
> >
> > I can update my PR to mention only the 3 points above for the "get
> > support" page if people think that having a support page make sense.
> >
> > regards,
> >
> > François
> >
> > On 11/01/2024 19:34, Justine Olshan wrote:
> > > I think there is a difference between the "Powered by" page and a page
> > for
> > > vendors to advertise their products and services.
> > >
> > > The idea is that the companies on that page are "powered by" Kafka.
> They
> > > serve as examples of happy users of Kafka.
> > > I don't think it is meant only as a place just for those companies to
> > > advertise.
> > >
> > > I'm a little confused by
> > >
> > >> In this case, I'm ok to say that the commercial support section in the
> > > "Get support" is no need as we can use this page.
> > >
> > > If you plan to submit for this page, please include a description on
> how
> > > your company uses Kafka.
> > >
> > > I'm happy to hear other folks' opinions on this page as well.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Justine
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, Jan 11, 2024 at 8:57 AM fpapon <fp...@apache.org> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Hi,
> > >>
> > >> About the vendors list and neutrality, what is the policy of the
> > >> "Powered by" page?
> > >>
> > >> https://kafka.apache.org/powered-by
> > >>
> > >> We can see company with logo, some are talking about their product
> > >> (Agoora), some are offering services (Instaclustr, Aiven), and we can
> > >> also see some that just put their logo and a link to their website
> > >> without any explanation (GoldmanSachs).
> > >>
> > >> So as I understand and after reading the text in the footer of this
> > >> page, every company can add themselves by providing a PR right?
> > >>
> > >> "Want to appear on this page?
> > >> Submit a pull request or send a quick description of your organization
> > >> and usage to the mailing list and we'll add you."
> > >>
> > >> In this case, I'm ok to say that the commercial support section in the
> > >> "Get support" is no need as we can use this page.
> > >>
> > >> regards,
> > >>
> > >> François
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On 10/01/2024 19:03, Kenneth Eversole wrote:
> > >>> I agree with Divji here and to be more pointed. I worry that if we go
> > >> down
> > >>> the path of adding vendors to a list it comes off as supporting their
> > >>> product, not to mention could be a huge security risk for novice
> > users. I
> > >>> would rather this be a callout to other purely open source tooling,
> > such
> > >> as
> > >>> cruise control.
> > >>>
> > >>> Divji brings up good question
> > >>> 1.  What value does additional of this page bring to the users of
> > Apache
> > >>> Kafka?
> > >>>
> > >>> I think the community would be a better service to have a more
> > >> synchronous
> > >>> line of communication such as Slack/Discord and we call that out
> here.
> > It
> > >>> would be more inline with other major open source projects.
> > >>>
> > >>> ---
> > >>> Kenneth Eversole
> > >>>
> > >>> On Wed, Jan 10, 2024 at 10:30 AM Divij Vaidya <
> divijvaidya13@gmail.com
> > >
> > >>> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>> I don't see a need for this. What additional information does this
> > >> provide
> > >>>> over what can be found via a quick google search?
> > >>>>
> > >>>> My primary concern is that we are getting in the business of listing
> > >>>> vendors in the project site which brings it's own complications
> > without
> > >>>> adding much additional value for users. In the spirit of being
> vendor
> > >>>> neutral, I would try to avoid this as much as possible.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> So, my question to you is:
> > >>>> 1. What value does additional of this page bring to the users of
> > Apache
> > >>>> Kafka?
> > >>>> 2. When a new PR is submitted to add a vendor, what criteria do we
> > have
> > >> to
> > >>>> decide whether to add them or not? If we keep a blanket criteria of
> > >>>> accepting all PRs, then we may end up in a situation where the llink
> > >>>> redirects to a phishing page or nefarious website. Hence, we might
> > have
> > >> to
> > >>>> at least perform some basic due diligence which adds overhead to the
> > >>>> resources of the community.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> --
> > >>>> Divij Vaidya
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On Wed, Jan 10, 2024 at 5:00 PM fpapon <fp...@apache.org> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> Hi,
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> After starting a first thread on this topic (
> > >>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/kkox33rhtjcdr5zztq3lzj7c5s7k9wsr),
> I
> > >>>>> would like to propose a PR:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> https://github.com/apache/kafka-site/pull/577
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> The purpose of this proposal is to help users to find support for
> > sla,
> > >>>>> training, consulting...whatever that is not provide by the
> community
> > >> as,
> > >>>>> like we can already see in many ASF projects, no commercial support
> > is
> > >>>>> provided by the foundation. I think it could help with the adoption
> > and
> > >>>> the
> > >>>>> growth of the project because the users
> > >>>>> need commercial support for production issues.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> If the community is agree about this idea and want to move
> forward, I
> > >>>> just
> > >>>>> add one company in the PR but everybody can add some by providing a
> > new
> > >>>> PR
> > >>>>> to complete the list. If people want me to add other you can reply
> to
> > >>>> this
> > >>>>> thread because it will be better to have several company at the
> first
> > >>>>> publication of the page.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Just provide the company-name and a short description of the
> service
> > >>>> offer
> > >>>>> around Apache Kafka. The information must be factual and
> > informational
> > >> in
> > >>>>> nature and not be a marketing statement.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> regards,
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> François
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >> --
> > >> --
> > >> François
> > >>
> > >>
> > --
> > --
> > François
> >
> >
>

Re: [PROPOSAL] Add commercial support page on website

[fpapon <fp...@apache.org>]

Hi Chris,

I never said that the Apache Kafka community "has to" provide this kind 
of page and it's not an official policy of the ASF.

I just listed other projects to show that this is something that already 
exist so this is potentially something that could be good for the 
community of an ASF project.

My proposal is just to help the project to growth and to help users to 
find production support because this is not the purpose of the ASF.

If the PMC and members of the community are not agree and think this is 
a bad thing for the project, I'm ok with that and I will close my PR.

regards,

François

On 11/01/2024 20:56, Chris Egerton wrote:
> Hi François,
>
> Is it an official policy of the ASF that projects provide a listing of
> commercial support options for themselves? I understand that other projects
> have chosen to provide one, but this doesn't necessarily imply that all
> projects should do the same, and I can't say I find this point very
> convincing as a rebuttal to some of the good-faith concerns raised by the
> PMC and members of the community so far. However, if there's an official
> ASF stance on this topic, then I acknowledge that Apache Kafka should align
> with it.
>
> Best,
>
> Chris
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 11, 2024, 14:50 fpapon <fp...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi Justine,
>>
>> I'm not sure to see the difference between "happy users" and vendors
>> that advertise their products in some of the company list in the
>> "powered by" page.
>>
>> Btw, my initial purpose of my proposal was to help user to find support
>> for production stuff rather than searching in google.
>>
>> I don't think this is a bad thing because this is something that already
>> exist in many ASF projects like:
>>
>> https://hop.apache.org/community/commercial/
>> https://struts.apache.org/commercial-support.html
>> https://directory.apache.org/commercial-support.html
>> https://tomee.apache.org/commercial-support.html
>> https://plc4x.apache.org/users/commercial-support.html
>> https://camel.apache.org/community/support/
>> https://openmeetings.apache.org/commercial-support.html
>> https://guacamole.apache.org/support/
>>
>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/HADOOP2/Distributions+and+Commercial+Support
>> https://activemq.apache.org/supporthttps://karaf.apache.org/community.html
>> https://netbeans.apache.org/front/main/help/commercial-support/
>> https://royale.apache.org/royale-commercial-support/
>>
>> https://karaf.apache.org/community.html
>>
>> As I understand for now, the channel for users to find production
>> support is:
>>
>> - The mailing list (user@kafka.apache.org / dev@kafka.apache.org)
>>
>> - The official #kafka  ASF Slack channel (may be we can add it on the
>> website because I didn't find it in the website =>
>> https://kafka.apache.org/contact)
>>
>> - Search in google for commercial support only
>>
>> I can update my PR to mention only the 3 points above for the "get
>> support" page if people think that having a support page make sense.
>>
>> regards,
>>
>> François
>>
>> On 11/01/2024 19:34, Justine Olshan wrote:
>>> I think there is a difference between the "Powered by" page and a page
>> for
>>> vendors to advertise their products and services.
>>>
>>> The idea is that the companies on that page are "powered by" Kafka. They
>>> serve as examples of happy users of Kafka.
>>> I don't think it is meant only as a place just for those companies to
>>> advertise.
>>>
>>> I'm a little confused by
>>>
>>>> In this case, I'm ok to say that the commercial support section in the
>>> "Get support" is no need as we can use this page.
>>>
>>> If you plan to submit for this page, please include a description on how
>>> your company uses Kafka.
>>>
>>> I'm happy to hear other folks' opinions on this page as well.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Justine
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jan 11, 2024 at 8:57 AM fpapon <fp...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> About the vendors list and neutrality, what is the policy of the
>>>> "Powered by" page?
>>>>
>>>> https://kafka.apache.org/powered-by
>>>>
>>>> We can see company with logo, some are talking about their product
>>>> (Agoora), some are offering services (Instaclustr, Aiven), and we can
>>>> also see some that just put their logo and a link to their website
>>>> without any explanation (GoldmanSachs).
>>>>
>>>> So as I understand and after reading the text in the footer of this
>>>> page, every company can add themselves by providing a PR right?
>>>>
>>>> "Want to appear on this page?
>>>> Submit a pull request or send a quick description of your organization
>>>> and usage to the mailing list and we'll add you."
>>>>
>>>> In this case, I'm ok to say that the commercial support section in the
>>>> "Get support" is no need as we can use this page.
>>>>
>>>> regards,
>>>>
>>>> François
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 10/01/2024 19:03, Kenneth Eversole wrote:
>>>>> I agree with Divji here and to be more pointed. I worry that if we go
>>>> down
>>>>> the path of adding vendors to a list it comes off as supporting their
>>>>> product, not to mention could be a huge security risk for novice
>> users. I
>>>>> would rather this be a callout to other purely open source tooling,
>> such
>>>> as
>>>>> cruise control.
>>>>>
>>>>> Divji brings up good question
>>>>> 1.  What value does additional of this page bring to the users of
>> Apache
>>>>> Kafka?
>>>>>
>>>>> I think the community would be a better service to have a more
>>>> synchronous
>>>>> line of communication such as Slack/Discord and we call that out here.
>> It
>>>>> would be more inline with other major open source projects.
>>>>>
>>>>> ---
>>>>> Kenneth Eversole
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Jan 10, 2024 at 10:30 AM Divij Vaidya <divijvaidya13@gmail.com
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't see a need for this. What additional information does this
>>>> provide
>>>>>> over what can be found via a quick google search?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My primary concern is that we are getting in the business of listing
>>>>>> vendors in the project site which brings it's own complications
>> without
>>>>>> adding much additional value for users. In the spirit of being vendor
>>>>>> neutral, I would try to avoid this as much as possible.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, my question to you is:
>>>>>> 1. What value does additional of this page bring to the users of
>> Apache
>>>>>> Kafka?
>>>>>> 2. When a new PR is submitted to add a vendor, what criteria do we
>> have
>>>> to
>>>>>> decide whether to add them or not? If we keep a blanket criteria of
>>>>>> accepting all PRs, then we may end up in a situation where the llink
>>>>>> redirects to a phishing page or nefarious website. Hence, we might
>> have
>>>> to
>>>>>> at least perform some basic due diligence which adds overhead to the
>>>>>> resources of the community.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Divij Vaidya
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Jan 10, 2024 at 5:00 PM fpapon <fp...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> After starting a first thread on this topic (
>>>>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/kkox33rhtjcdr5zztq3lzj7c5s7k9wsr), I
>>>>>>> would like to propose a PR:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://github.com/apache/kafka-site/pull/577
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The purpose of this proposal is to help users to find support for
>> sla,
>>>>>>> training, consulting...whatever that is not provide by the community
>>>> as,
>>>>>>> like we can already see in many ASF projects, no commercial support
>> is
>>>>>>> provided by the foundation. I think it could help with the adoption
>> and
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> growth of the project because the users
>>>>>>> need commercial support for production issues.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If the community is agree about this idea and want to move forward, I
>>>>>> just
>>>>>>> add one company in the PR but everybody can add some by providing a
>> new
>>>>>> PR
>>>>>>> to complete the list. If people want me to add other you can reply to
>>>>>> this
>>>>>>> thread because it will be better to have several company at the first
>>>>>>> publication of the page.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Just provide the company-name and a short description of the service
>>>>>> offer
>>>>>>> around Apache Kafka. The information must be factual and
>> informational
>>>> in
>>>>>>> nature and not be a marketing statement.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> regards,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> François
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> --
>>>> François
>>>>
>>>>
>> --
>> --
>> François
>>
>>
-- 
--
François

Re: [PROPOSAL] Add commercial support page on website

[Chris Egerton <fe...@gmail.com>]

Hi François,

Is it an official policy of the ASF that projects provide a listing of
commercial support options for themselves? I understand that other projects
have chosen to provide one, but this doesn't necessarily imply that all
projects should do the same, and I can't say I find this point very
convincing as a rebuttal to some of the good-faith concerns raised by the
PMC and members of the community so far. However, if there's an official
ASF stance on this topic, then I acknowledge that Apache Kafka should align
with it.

Best,

Chris


On Thu, Jan 11, 2024, 14:50 fpapon <fp...@apache.org> wrote:

> Hi Justine,
>
> I'm not sure to see the difference between "happy users" and vendors
> that advertise their products in some of the company list in the
> "powered by" page.
>
> Btw, my initial purpose of my proposal was to help user to find support
> for production stuff rather than searching in google.
>
> I don't think this is a bad thing because this is something that already
> exist in many ASF projects like:
>
> https://hop.apache.org/community/commercial/
> https://struts.apache.org/commercial-support.html
> https://directory.apache.org/commercial-support.html
> https://tomee.apache.org/commercial-support.html
> https://plc4x.apache.org/users/commercial-support.html
> https://camel.apache.org/community/support/
> https://openmeetings.apache.org/commercial-support.html
> https://guacamole.apache.org/support/
>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/HADOOP2/Distributions+and+Commercial+Support
> https://activemq.apache.org/supporthttps://karaf.apache.org/community.html
> https://netbeans.apache.org/front/main/help/commercial-support/
> https://royale.apache.org/royale-commercial-support/
>
> https://karaf.apache.org/community.html
>
> As I understand for now, the channel for users to find production
> support is:
>
> - The mailing list (user@kafka.apache.org / dev@kafka.apache.org)
>
> - The official #kafka  ASF Slack channel (may be we can add it on the
> website because I didn't find it in the website =>
> https://kafka.apache.org/contact)
>
> - Search in google for commercial support only
>
> I can update my PR to mention only the 3 points above for the "get
> support" page if people think that having a support page make sense.
>
> regards,
>
> François
>
> On 11/01/2024 19:34, Justine Olshan wrote:
> > I think there is a difference between the "Powered by" page and a page
> for
> > vendors to advertise their products and services.
> >
> > The idea is that the companies on that page are "powered by" Kafka. They
> > serve as examples of happy users of Kafka.
> > I don't think it is meant only as a place just for those companies to
> > advertise.
> >
> > I'm a little confused by
> >
> >> In this case, I'm ok to say that the commercial support section in the
> > "Get support" is no need as we can use this page.
> >
> > If you plan to submit for this page, please include a description on how
> > your company uses Kafka.
> >
> > I'm happy to hear other folks' opinions on this page as well.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Justine
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Jan 11, 2024 at 8:57 AM fpapon <fp...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> About the vendors list and neutrality, what is the policy of the
> >> "Powered by" page?
> >>
> >> https://kafka.apache.org/powered-by
> >>
> >> We can see company with logo, some are talking about their product
> >> (Agoora), some are offering services (Instaclustr, Aiven), and we can
> >> also see some that just put their logo and a link to their website
> >> without any explanation (GoldmanSachs).
> >>
> >> So as I understand and after reading the text in the footer of this
> >> page, every company can add themselves by providing a PR right?
> >>
> >> "Want to appear on this page?
> >> Submit a pull request or send a quick description of your organization
> >> and usage to the mailing list and we'll add you."
> >>
> >> In this case, I'm ok to say that the commercial support section in the
> >> "Get support" is no need as we can use this page.
> >>
> >> regards,
> >>
> >> François
> >>
> >>
> >> On 10/01/2024 19:03, Kenneth Eversole wrote:
> >>> I agree with Divji here and to be more pointed. I worry that if we go
> >> down
> >>> the path of adding vendors to a list it comes off as supporting their
> >>> product, not to mention could be a huge security risk for novice
> users. I
> >>> would rather this be a callout to other purely open source tooling,
> such
> >> as
> >>> cruise control.
> >>>
> >>> Divji brings up good question
> >>> 1.  What value does additional of this page bring to the users of
> Apache
> >>> Kafka?
> >>>
> >>> I think the community would be a better service to have a more
> >> synchronous
> >>> line of communication such as Slack/Discord and we call that out here.
> It
> >>> would be more inline with other major open source projects.
> >>>
> >>> ---
> >>> Kenneth Eversole
> >>>
> >>> On Wed, Jan 10, 2024 at 10:30 AM Divij Vaidya <divijvaidya13@gmail.com
> >
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> I don't see a need for this. What additional information does this
> >> provide
> >>>> over what can be found via a quick google search?
> >>>>
> >>>> My primary concern is that we are getting in the business of listing
> >>>> vendors in the project site which brings it's own complications
> without
> >>>> adding much additional value for users. In the spirit of being vendor
> >>>> neutral, I would try to avoid this as much as possible.
> >>>>
> >>>> So, my question to you is:
> >>>> 1. What value does additional of this page bring to the users of
> Apache
> >>>> Kafka?
> >>>> 2. When a new PR is submitted to add a vendor, what criteria do we
> have
> >> to
> >>>> decide whether to add them or not? If we keep a blanket criteria of
> >>>> accepting all PRs, then we may end up in a situation where the llink
> >>>> redirects to a phishing page or nefarious website. Hence, we might
> have
> >> to
> >>>> at least perform some basic due diligence which adds overhead to the
> >>>> resources of the community.
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Divij Vaidya
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Wed, Jan 10, 2024 at 5:00 PM fpapon <fp...@apache.org> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Hi,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> After starting a first thread on this topic (
> >>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/kkox33rhtjcdr5zztq3lzj7c5s7k9wsr), I
> >>>>> would like to propose a PR:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> https://github.com/apache/kafka-site/pull/577
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The purpose of this proposal is to help users to find support for
> sla,
> >>>>> training, consulting...whatever that is not provide by the community
> >> as,
> >>>>> like we can already see in many ASF projects, no commercial support
> is
> >>>>> provided by the foundation. I think it could help with the adoption
> and
> >>>> the
> >>>>> growth of the project because the users
> >>>>> need commercial support for production issues.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> If the community is agree about this idea and want to move forward, I
> >>>> just
> >>>>> add one company in the PR but everybody can add some by providing a
> new
> >>>> PR
> >>>>> to complete the list. If people want me to add other you can reply to
> >>>> this
> >>>>> thread because it will be better to have several company at the first
> >>>>> publication of the page.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Just provide the company-name and a short description of the service
> >>>> offer
> >>>>> around Apache Kafka. The information must be factual and
> informational
> >> in
> >>>>> nature and not be a marketing statement.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> regards,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> François
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >> --
> >> --
> >> François
> >>
> >>
> --
> --
> François
>
>

Re: [PROPOSAL] Add commercial support page on website

[Chris Egerton <fe...@gmail.com>]

Hi François,

Is it an official policy of the ASF that projects provide a listing of
commercial support options for themselves? I understand that other projects
have chosen to provide one, but this doesn't necessarily imply that all
projects should do the same, and I can't say I find this point very
convincing as a rebuttal to some of the good-faith concerns raised by the
PMC and members of the community so far. However, if there's an official
ASF stance on this topic, then I acknowledge that Apache Kafka should align
with it.

Best,

Chris


On Thu, Jan 11, 2024, 14:50 fpapon <fp...@apache.org> wrote:

> Hi Justine,
>
> I'm not sure to see the difference between "happy users" and vendors
> that advertise their products in some of the company list in the
> "powered by" page.
>
> Btw, my initial purpose of my proposal was to help user to find support
> for production stuff rather than searching in google.
>
> I don't think this is a bad thing because this is something that already
> exist in many ASF projects like:
>
> https://hop.apache.org/community/commercial/
> https://struts.apache.org/commercial-support.html
> https://directory.apache.org/commercial-support.html
> https://tomee.apache.org/commercial-support.html
> https://plc4x.apache.org/users/commercial-support.html
> https://camel.apache.org/community/support/
> https://openmeetings.apache.org/commercial-support.html
> https://guacamole.apache.org/support/
>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/HADOOP2/Distributions+and+Commercial+Support
> https://activemq.apache.org/supporthttps://karaf.apache.org/community.html
> https://netbeans.apache.org/front/main/help/commercial-support/
> https://royale.apache.org/royale-commercial-support/
>
> https://karaf.apache.org/community.html
>
> As I understand for now, the channel for users to find production
> support is:
>
> - The mailing list (user@kafka.apache.org / dev@kafka.apache.org)
>
> - The official #kafka  ASF Slack channel (may be we can add it on the
> website because I didn't find it in the website =>
> https://kafka.apache.org/contact)
>
> - Search in google for commercial support only
>
> I can update my PR to mention only the 3 points above for the "get
> support" page if people think that having a support page make sense.
>
> regards,
>
> François
>
> On 11/01/2024 19:34, Justine Olshan wrote:
> > I think there is a difference between the "Powered by" page and a page
> for
> > vendors to advertise their products and services.
> >
> > The idea is that the companies on that page are "powered by" Kafka. They
> > serve as examples of happy users of Kafka.
> > I don't think it is meant only as a place just for those companies to
> > advertise.
> >
> > I'm a little confused by
> >
> >> In this case, I'm ok to say that the commercial support section in the
> > "Get support" is no need as we can use this page.
> >
> > If you plan to submit for this page, please include a description on how
> > your company uses Kafka.
> >
> > I'm happy to hear other folks' opinions on this page as well.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Justine
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Jan 11, 2024 at 8:57 AM fpapon <fp...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> About the vendors list and neutrality, what is the policy of the
> >> "Powered by" page?
> >>
> >> https://kafka.apache.org/powered-by
> >>
> >> We can see company with logo, some are talking about their product
> >> (Agoora), some are offering services (Instaclustr, Aiven), and we can
> >> also see some that just put their logo and a link to their website
> >> without any explanation (GoldmanSachs).
> >>
> >> So as I understand and after reading the text in the footer of this
> >> page, every company can add themselves by providing a PR right?
> >>
> >> "Want to appear on this page?
> >> Submit a pull request or send a quick description of your organization
> >> and usage to the mailing list and we'll add you."
> >>
> >> In this case, I'm ok to say that the commercial support section in the
> >> "Get support" is no need as we can use this page.
> >>
> >> regards,
> >>
> >> François
> >>
> >>
> >> On 10/01/2024 19:03, Kenneth Eversole wrote:
> >>> I agree with Divji here and to be more pointed. I worry that if we go
> >> down
> >>> the path of adding vendors to a list it comes off as supporting their
> >>> product, not to mention could be a huge security risk for novice
> users. I
> >>> would rather this be a callout to other purely open source tooling,
> such
> >> as
> >>> cruise control.
> >>>
> >>> Divji brings up good question
> >>> 1.  What value does additional of this page bring to the users of
> Apache
> >>> Kafka?
> >>>
> >>> I think the community would be a better service to have a more
> >> synchronous
> >>> line of communication such as Slack/Discord and we call that out here.
> It
> >>> would be more inline with other major open source projects.
> >>>
> >>> ---
> >>> Kenneth Eversole
> >>>
> >>> On Wed, Jan 10, 2024 at 10:30 AM Divij Vaidya <divijvaidya13@gmail.com
> >
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> I don't see a need for this. What additional information does this
> >> provide
> >>>> over what can be found via a quick google search?
> >>>>
> >>>> My primary concern is that we are getting in the business of listing
> >>>> vendors in the project site which brings it's own complications
> without
> >>>> adding much additional value for users. In the spirit of being vendor
> >>>> neutral, I would try to avoid this as much as possible.
> >>>>
> >>>> So, my question to you is:
> >>>> 1. What value does additional of this page bring to the users of
> Apache
> >>>> Kafka?
> >>>> 2. When a new PR is submitted to add a vendor, what criteria do we
> have
> >> to
> >>>> decide whether to add them or not? If we keep a blanket criteria of
> >>>> accepting all PRs, then we may end up in a situation where the llink
> >>>> redirects to a phishing page or nefarious website. Hence, we might
> have
> >> to
> >>>> at least perform some basic due diligence which adds overhead to the
> >>>> resources of the community.
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Divij Vaidya
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Wed, Jan 10, 2024 at 5:00 PM fpapon <fp...@apache.org> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Hi,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> After starting a first thread on this topic (
> >>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/kkox33rhtjcdr5zztq3lzj7c5s7k9wsr), I
> >>>>> would like to propose a PR:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> https://github.com/apache/kafka-site/pull/577
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The purpose of this proposal is to help users to find support for
> sla,
> >>>>> training, consulting...whatever that is not provide by the community
> >> as,
> >>>>> like we can already see in many ASF projects, no commercial support
> is
> >>>>> provided by the foundation. I think it could help with the adoption
> and
> >>>> the
> >>>>> growth of the project because the users
> >>>>> need commercial support for production issues.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> If the community is agree about this idea and want to move forward, I
> >>>> just
> >>>>> add one company in the PR but everybody can add some by providing a
> new
> >>>> PR
> >>>>> to complete the list. If people want me to add other you can reply to
> >>>> this
> >>>>> thread because it will be better to have several company at the first
> >>>>> publication of the page.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Just provide the company-name and a short description of the service
> >>>> offer
> >>>>> around Apache Kafka. The information must be factual and
> informational
> >> in
> >>>>> nature and not be a marketing statement.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> regards,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> François
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >> --
> >> --
> >> François
> >>
> >>
> --
> --
> François
>
>

Re: [PROPOSAL] Add commercial support page on website

[fpapon <fp...@apache.org>]

Hi Justine,

I'm not sure to see the difference between "happy users" and vendors 
that advertise their products in some of the company list in the 
"powered by" page.

Btw, my initial purpose of my proposal was to help user to find support 
for production stuff rather than searching in google.

I don't think this is a bad thing because this is something that already 
exist in many ASF projects like:

https://hop.apache.org/community/commercial/
https://struts.apache.org/commercial-support.html
https://directory.apache.org/commercial-support.html
https://tomee.apache.org/commercial-support.html
https://plc4x.apache.org/users/commercial-support.html
https://camel.apache.org/community/support/
https://openmeetings.apache.org/commercial-support.html
https://guacamole.apache.org/support/
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/HADOOP2/Distributions+and+Commercial+Support
https://activemq.apache.org/supporthttps://karaf.apache.org/community.html
https://netbeans.apache.org/front/main/help/commercial-support/
https://royale.apache.org/royale-commercial-support/

https://karaf.apache.org/community.html

As I understand for now, the channel for users to find production 
support is:

- The mailing list (user@kafka.apache.org / dev@kafka.apache.org)

- The official #kafka  ASF Slack channel (may be we can add it on the 
website because I didn't find it in the website => 
https://kafka.apache.org/contact)

- Search in google for commercial support only

I can update my PR to mention only the 3 points above for the "get 
support" page if people think that having a support page make sense.

regards,

François

On 11/01/2024 19:34, Justine Olshan wrote:
> I think there is a difference between the "Powered by" page and a page for
> vendors to advertise their products and services.
>
> The idea is that the companies on that page are "powered by" Kafka. They
> serve as examples of happy users of Kafka.
> I don't think it is meant only as a place just for those companies to
> advertise.
>
> I'm a little confused by
>
>> In this case, I'm ok to say that the commercial support section in the
> "Get support" is no need as we can use this page.
>
> If you plan to submit for this page, please include a description on how
> your company uses Kafka.
>
> I'm happy to hear other folks' opinions on this page as well.
>
> Thanks,
> Justine
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 11, 2024 at 8:57 AM fpapon <fp...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> About the vendors list and neutrality, what is the policy of the
>> "Powered by" page?
>>
>> https://kafka.apache.org/powered-by
>>
>> We can see company with logo, some are talking about their product
>> (Agoora), some are offering services (Instaclustr, Aiven), and we can
>> also see some that just put their logo and a link to their website
>> without any explanation (GoldmanSachs).
>>
>> So as I understand and after reading the text in the footer of this
>> page, every company can add themselves by providing a PR right?
>>
>> "Want to appear on this page?
>> Submit a pull request or send a quick description of your organization
>> and usage to the mailing list and we'll add you."
>>
>> In this case, I'm ok to say that the commercial support section in the
>> "Get support" is no need as we can use this page.
>>
>> regards,
>>
>> François
>>
>>
>> On 10/01/2024 19:03, Kenneth Eversole wrote:
>>> I agree with Divji here and to be more pointed. I worry that if we go
>> down
>>> the path of adding vendors to a list it comes off as supporting their
>>> product, not to mention could be a huge security risk for novice users. I
>>> would rather this be a callout to other purely open source tooling, such
>> as
>>> cruise control.
>>>
>>> Divji brings up good question
>>> 1.  What value does additional of this page bring to the users of Apache
>>> Kafka?
>>>
>>> I think the community would be a better service to have a more
>> synchronous
>>> line of communication such as Slack/Discord and we call that out here. It
>>> would be more inline with other major open source projects.
>>>
>>> ---
>>> Kenneth Eversole
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jan 10, 2024 at 10:30 AM Divij Vaidya <di...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I don't see a need for this. What additional information does this
>> provide
>>>> over what can be found via a quick google search?
>>>>
>>>> My primary concern is that we are getting in the business of listing
>>>> vendors in the project site which brings it's own complications without
>>>> adding much additional value for users. In the spirit of being vendor
>>>> neutral, I would try to avoid this as much as possible.
>>>>
>>>> So, my question to you is:
>>>> 1. What value does additional of this page bring to the users of Apache
>>>> Kafka?
>>>> 2. When a new PR is submitted to add a vendor, what criteria do we have
>> to
>>>> decide whether to add them or not? If we keep a blanket criteria of
>>>> accepting all PRs, then we may end up in a situation where the llink
>>>> redirects to a phishing page or nefarious website. Hence, we might have
>> to
>>>> at least perform some basic due diligence which adds overhead to the
>>>> resources of the community.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Divij Vaidya
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Jan 10, 2024 at 5:00 PM fpapon <fp...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> After starting a first thread on this topic (
>>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/kkox33rhtjcdr5zztq3lzj7c5s7k9wsr), I
>>>>> would like to propose a PR:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://github.com/apache/kafka-site/pull/577
>>>>>
>>>>> The purpose of this proposal is to help users to find support for sla,
>>>>> training, consulting...whatever that is not provide by the community
>> as,
>>>>> like we can already see in many ASF projects, no commercial support is
>>>>> provided by the foundation. I think it could help with the adoption and
>>>> the
>>>>> growth of the project because the users
>>>>> need commercial support for production issues.
>>>>>
>>>>> If the community is agree about this idea and want to move forward, I
>>>> just
>>>>> add one company in the PR but everybody can add some by providing a new
>>>> PR
>>>>> to complete the list. If people want me to add other you can reply to
>>>> this
>>>>> thread because it will be better to have several company at the first
>>>>> publication of the page.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just provide the company-name and a short description of the service
>>>> offer
>>>>> around Apache Kafka. The information must be factual and informational
>> in
>>>>> nature and not be a marketing statement.
>>>>>
>>>>> regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> François
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>> --
>> --
>> François
>>
>>
-- 
--
François

Re: [PROPOSAL] Add commercial support page on website

[fpapon <fp...@apache.org>]

Hi Justine,

I'm not sure to see the difference between "happy users" and vendors 
that advertise their products in some of the company list in the 
"powered by" page.

Btw, my initial purpose of my proposal was to help user to find support 
for production stuff rather than searching in google.

I don't think this is a bad thing because this is something that already 
exist in many ASF projects like:

https://hop.apache.org/community/commercial/
https://struts.apache.org/commercial-support.html
https://directory.apache.org/commercial-support.html
https://tomee.apache.org/commercial-support.html
https://plc4x.apache.org/users/commercial-support.html
https://camel.apache.org/community/support/
https://openmeetings.apache.org/commercial-support.html
https://guacamole.apache.org/support/
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/HADOOP2/Distributions+and+Commercial+Support
https://activemq.apache.org/supporthttps://karaf.apache.org/community.html
https://netbeans.apache.org/front/main/help/commercial-support/
https://royale.apache.org/royale-commercial-support/

https://karaf.apache.org/community.html

As I understand for now, the channel for users to find production 
support is:

- The mailing list (user@kafka.apache.org / dev@kafka.apache.org)

- The official #kafka  ASF Slack channel (may be we can add it on the 
website because I didn't find it in the website => 
https://kafka.apache.org/contact)

- Search in google for commercial support only

I can update my PR to mention only the 3 points above for the "get 
support" page if people think that having a support page make sense.

regards,

François

On 11/01/2024 19:34, Justine Olshan wrote:
> I think there is a difference between the "Powered by" page and a page for
> vendors to advertise their products and services.
>
> The idea is that the companies on that page are "powered by" Kafka. They
> serve as examples of happy users of Kafka.
> I don't think it is meant only as a place just for those companies to
> advertise.
>
> I'm a little confused by
>
>> In this case, I'm ok to say that the commercial support section in the
> "Get support" is no need as we can use this page.
>
> If you plan to submit for this page, please include a description on how
> your company uses Kafka.
>
> I'm happy to hear other folks' opinions on this page as well.
>
> Thanks,
> Justine
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 11, 2024 at 8:57 AM fpapon <fp...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> About the vendors list and neutrality, what is the policy of the
>> "Powered by" page?
>>
>> https://kafka.apache.org/powered-by
>>
>> We can see company with logo, some are talking about their product
>> (Agoora), some are offering services (Instaclustr, Aiven), and we can
>> also see some that just put their logo and a link to their website
>> without any explanation (GoldmanSachs).
>>
>> So as I understand and after reading the text in the footer of this
>> page, every company can add themselves by providing a PR right?
>>
>> "Want to appear on this page?
>> Submit a pull request or send a quick description of your organization
>> and usage to the mailing list and we'll add you."
>>
>> In this case, I'm ok to say that the commercial support section in the
>> "Get support" is no need as we can use this page.
>>
>> regards,
>>
>> François
>>
>>
>> On 10/01/2024 19:03, Kenneth Eversole wrote:
>>> I agree with Divji here and to be more pointed. I worry that if we go
>> down
>>> the path of adding vendors to a list it comes off as supporting their
>>> product, not to mention could be a huge security risk for novice users. I
>>> would rather this be a callout to other purely open source tooling, such
>> as
>>> cruise control.
>>>
>>> Divji brings up good question
>>> 1.  What value does additional of this page bring to the users of Apache
>>> Kafka?
>>>
>>> I think the community would be a better service to have a more
>> synchronous
>>> line of communication such as Slack/Discord and we call that out here. It
>>> would be more inline with other major open source projects.
>>>
>>> ---
>>> Kenneth Eversole
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jan 10, 2024 at 10:30 AM Divij Vaidya <di...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I don't see a need for this. What additional information does this
>> provide
>>>> over what can be found via a quick google search?
>>>>
>>>> My primary concern is that we are getting in the business of listing
>>>> vendors in the project site which brings it's own complications without
>>>> adding much additional value for users. In the spirit of being vendor
>>>> neutral, I would try to avoid this as much as possible.
>>>>
>>>> So, my question to you is:
>>>> 1. What value does additional of this page bring to the users of Apache
>>>> Kafka?
>>>> 2. When a new PR is submitted to add a vendor, what criteria do we have
>> to
>>>> decide whether to add them or not? If we keep a blanket criteria of
>>>> accepting all PRs, then we may end up in a situation where the llink
>>>> redirects to a phishing page or nefarious website. Hence, we might have
>> to
>>>> at least perform some basic due diligence which adds overhead to the
>>>> resources of the community.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Divij Vaidya
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Jan 10, 2024 at 5:00 PM fpapon <fp...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> After starting a first thread on this topic (
>>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/kkox33rhtjcdr5zztq3lzj7c5s7k9wsr), I
>>>>> would like to propose a PR:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://github.com/apache/kafka-site/pull/577
>>>>>
>>>>> The purpose of this proposal is to help users to find support for sla,
>>>>> training, consulting...whatever that is not provide by the community
>> as,
>>>>> like we can already see in many ASF projects, no commercial support is
>>>>> provided by the foundation. I think it could help with the adoption and
>>>> the
>>>>> growth of the project because the users
>>>>> need commercial support for production issues.
>>>>>
>>>>> If the community is agree about this idea and want to move forward, I
>>>> just
>>>>> add one company in the PR but everybody can add some by providing a new
>>>> PR
>>>>> to complete the list. If people want me to add other you can reply to
>>>> this
>>>>> thread because it will be better to have several company at the first
>>>>> publication of the page.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just provide the company-name and a short description of the service
>>>> offer
>>>>> around Apache Kafka. The information must be factual and informational
>> in
>>>>> nature and not be a marketing statement.
>>>>>
>>>>> regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> François
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>> --
>> --
>> François
>>
>>
-- 
--
François

Re: [PROPOSAL] Add commercial support page on website

[Justine Olshan <jo...@confluent.io.INVALID>]

I think there is a difference between the "Powered by" page and a page for
vendors to advertise their products and services.

The idea is that the companies on that page are "powered by" Kafka. They
serve as examples of happy users of Kafka.
I don't think it is meant only as a place just for those companies to
advertise.

I'm a little confused by

> In this case, I'm ok to say that the commercial support section in the
"Get support" is no need as we can use this page.

If you plan to submit for this page, please include a description on how
your company uses Kafka.

I'm happy to hear other folks' opinions on this page as well.

Thanks,
Justine



On Thu, Jan 11, 2024 at 8:57 AM fpapon <fp...@apache.org> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> About the vendors list and neutrality, what is the policy of the
> "Powered by" page?
>
> https://kafka.apache.org/powered-by
>
> We can see company with logo, some are talking about their product
> (Agoora), some are offering services (Instaclustr, Aiven), and we can
> also see some that just put their logo and a link to their website
> without any explanation (GoldmanSachs).
>
> So as I understand and after reading the text in the footer of this
> page, every company can add themselves by providing a PR right?
>
> "Want to appear on this page?
> Submit a pull request or send a quick description of your organization
> and usage to the mailing list and we'll add you."
>
> In this case, I'm ok to say that the commercial support section in the
> "Get support" is no need as we can use this page.
>
> regards,
>
> François
>
>
> On 10/01/2024 19:03, Kenneth Eversole wrote:
> > I agree with Divji here and to be more pointed. I worry that if we go
> down
> > the path of adding vendors to a list it comes off as supporting their
> > product, not to mention could be a huge security risk for novice users. I
> > would rather this be a callout to other purely open source tooling, such
> as
> > cruise control.
> >
> > Divji brings up good question
> > 1.  What value does additional of this page bring to the users of Apache
> > Kafka?
> >
> > I think the community would be a better service to have a more
> synchronous
> > line of communication such as Slack/Discord and we call that out here. It
> > would be more inline with other major open source projects.
> >
> > ---
> > Kenneth Eversole
> >
> > On Wed, Jan 10, 2024 at 10:30 AM Divij Vaidya <di...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> I don't see a need for this. What additional information does this
> provide
> >> over what can be found via a quick google search?
> >>
> >> My primary concern is that we are getting in the business of listing
> >> vendors in the project site which brings it's own complications without
> >> adding much additional value for users. In the spirit of being vendor
> >> neutral, I would try to avoid this as much as possible.
> >>
> >> So, my question to you is:
> >> 1. What value does additional of this page bring to the users of Apache
> >> Kafka?
> >> 2. When a new PR is submitted to add a vendor, what criteria do we have
> to
> >> decide whether to add them or not? If we keep a blanket criteria of
> >> accepting all PRs, then we may end up in a situation where the llink
> >> redirects to a phishing page or nefarious website. Hence, we might have
> to
> >> at least perform some basic due diligence which adds overhead to the
> >> resources of the community.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Divij Vaidya
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, Jan 10, 2024 at 5:00 PM fpapon <fp...@apache.org> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hi,
> >>>
> >>> After starting a first thread on this topic (
> >>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/kkox33rhtjcdr5zztq3lzj7c5s7k9wsr), I
> >>> would like to propose a PR:
> >>>
> >>> https://github.com/apache/kafka-site/pull/577
> >>>
> >>> The purpose of this proposal is to help users to find support for sla,
> >>> training, consulting...whatever that is not provide by the community
> as,
> >>> like we can already see in many ASF projects, no commercial support is
> >>> provided by the foundation. I think it could help with the adoption and
> >> the
> >>> growth of the project because the users
> >>> need commercial support for production issues.
> >>>
> >>> If the community is agree about this idea and want to move forward, I
> >> just
> >>> add one company in the PR but everybody can add some by providing a new
> >> PR
> >>> to complete the list. If people want me to add other you can reply to
> >> this
> >>> thread because it will be better to have several company at the first
> >>> publication of the page.
> >>>
> >>> Just provide the company-name and a short description of the service
> >> offer
> >>> around Apache Kafka. The information must be factual and informational
> in
> >>> nature and not be a marketing statement.
> >>>
> >>> regards,
> >>>
> >>> François
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> --
> --
> François
>
>

Re: [PROPOSAL] Add commercial support page on website

[fpapon <fp...@apache.org>]

Hi,

About the vendors list and neutrality, what is the policy of the 
"Powered by" page?

https://kafka.apache.org/powered-by

We can see company with logo, some are talking about their product 
(Agoora), some are offering services (Instaclustr, Aiven), and we can 
also see some that just put their logo and a link to their website 
without any explanation (GoldmanSachs).

So as I understand and after reading the text in the footer of this 
page, every company can add themselves by providing a PR right?

"Want to appear on this page?
Submit a pull request or send a quick description of your organization 
and usage to the mailing list and we'll add you."

In this case, I'm ok to say that the commercial support section in the 
"Get support" is no need as we can use this page.

regards,

François


On 10/01/2024 19:03, Kenneth Eversole wrote:
> I agree with Divji here and to be more pointed. I worry that if we go down
> the path of adding vendors to a list it comes off as supporting their
> product, not to mention could be a huge security risk for novice users. I
> would rather this be a callout to other purely open source tooling, such as
> cruise control.
>
> Divji brings up good question
> 1.  What value does additional of this page bring to the users of Apache
> Kafka?
>
> I think the community would be a better service to have a more synchronous
> line of communication such as Slack/Discord and we call that out here. It
> would be more inline with other major open source projects.
>
> ---
> Kenneth Eversole
>
> On Wed, Jan 10, 2024 at 10:30 AM Divij Vaidya <di...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I don't see a need for this. What additional information does this provide
>> over what can be found via a quick google search?
>>
>> My primary concern is that we are getting in the business of listing
>> vendors in the project site which brings it's own complications without
>> adding much additional value for users. In the spirit of being vendor
>> neutral, I would try to avoid this as much as possible.
>>
>> So, my question to you is:
>> 1. What value does additional of this page bring to the users of Apache
>> Kafka?
>> 2. When a new PR is submitted to add a vendor, what criteria do we have to
>> decide whether to add them or not? If we keep a blanket criteria of
>> accepting all PRs, then we may end up in a situation where the llink
>> redirects to a phishing page or nefarious website. Hence, we might have to
>> at least perform some basic due diligence which adds overhead to the
>> resources of the community.
>>
>> --
>> Divij Vaidya
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 10, 2024 at 5:00 PM fpapon <fp...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> After starting a first thread on this topic (
>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/kkox33rhtjcdr5zztq3lzj7c5s7k9wsr), I
>>> would like to propose a PR:
>>>
>>> https://github.com/apache/kafka-site/pull/577
>>>
>>> The purpose of this proposal is to help users to find support for sla,
>>> training, consulting...whatever that is not provide by the community as,
>>> like we can already see in many ASF projects, no commercial support is
>>> provided by the foundation. I think it could help with the adoption and
>> the
>>> growth of the project because the users
>>> need commercial support for production issues.
>>>
>>> If the community is agree about this idea and want to move forward, I
>> just
>>> add one company in the PR but everybody can add some by providing a new
>> PR
>>> to complete the list. If people want me to add other you can reply to
>> this
>>> thread because it will be better to have several company at the first
>>> publication of the page.
>>>
>>> Just provide the company-name and a short description of the service
>> offer
>>> around Apache Kafka. The information must be factual and informational in
>>> nature and not be a marketing statement.
>>>
>>> regards,
>>>
>>> François
>>>
>>>
>>>
-- 
--
François

Re: [PROPOSAL] Add commercial support page on website

[fpapon <fp...@apache.org>]

Hi,

About the vendors list and neutrality, what is the policy of the 
"Powered by" page?

https://kafka.apache.org/powered-by

We can see company with logo, some are talking about their product 
(Agoora), some are offering services (Instaclustr, Aiven), and we can 
also see some that just put their logo and a link to their website 
without any explanation (GoldmanSachs).

So as I understand and after reading the text in the footer of this 
page, every company can add themselves by providing a PR right?

"Want to appear on this page?
Submit a pull request or send a quick description of your organization 
and usage to the mailing list and we'll add you."

In this case, I'm ok to say that the commercial support section in the 
"Get support" is no need as we can use this page.

regards,

François


On 10/01/2024 19:03, Kenneth Eversole wrote:
> I agree with Divji here and to be more pointed. I worry that if we go down
> the path of adding vendors to a list it comes off as supporting their
> product, not to mention could be a huge security risk for novice users. I
> would rather this be a callout to other purely open source tooling, such as
> cruise control.
>
> Divji brings up good question
> 1.  What value does additional of this page bring to the users of Apache
> Kafka?
>
> I think the community would be a better service to have a more synchronous
> line of communication such as Slack/Discord and we call that out here. It
> would be more inline with other major open source projects.
>
> ---
> Kenneth Eversole
>
> On Wed, Jan 10, 2024 at 10:30 AM Divij Vaidya <di...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I don't see a need for this. What additional information does this provide
>> over what can be found via a quick google search?
>>
>> My primary concern is that we are getting in the business of listing
>> vendors in the project site which brings it's own complications without
>> adding much additional value for users. In the spirit of being vendor
>> neutral, I would try to avoid this as much as possible.
>>
>> So, my question to you is:
>> 1. What value does additional of this page bring to the users of Apache
>> Kafka?
>> 2. When a new PR is submitted to add a vendor, what criteria do we have to
>> decide whether to add them or not? If we keep a blanket criteria of
>> accepting all PRs, then we may end up in a situation where the llink
>> redirects to a phishing page or nefarious website. Hence, we might have to
>> at least perform some basic due diligence which adds overhead to the
>> resources of the community.
>>
>> --
>> Divij Vaidya
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 10, 2024 at 5:00 PM fpapon <fp...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> After starting a first thread on this topic (
>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/kkox33rhtjcdr5zztq3lzj7c5s7k9wsr), I
>>> would like to propose a PR:
>>>
>>> https://github.com/apache/kafka-site/pull/577
>>>
>>> The purpose of this proposal is to help users to find support for sla,
>>> training, consulting...whatever that is not provide by the community as,
>>> like we can already see in many ASF projects, no commercial support is
>>> provided by the foundation. I think it could help with the adoption and
>> the
>>> growth of the project because the users
>>> need commercial support for production issues.
>>>
>>> If the community is agree about this idea and want to move forward, I
>> just
>>> add one company in the PR but everybody can add some by providing a new
>> PR
>>> to complete the list. If people want me to add other you can reply to
>> this
>>> thread because it will be better to have several company at the first
>>> publication of the page.
>>>
>>> Just provide the company-name and a short description of the service
>> offer
>>> around Apache Kafka. The information must be factual and informational in
>>> nature and not be a marketing statement.
>>>
>>> regards,
>>>
>>> François
>>>
>>>
>>>
-- 
--
François

Re: [PROPOSAL] Add commercial support page on website

[Kenneth Eversole <ke...@cloudflare.com.INVALID>]

I agree with Divji here and to be more pointed. I worry that if we go down
the path of adding vendors to a list it comes off as supporting their
product, not to mention could be a huge security risk for novice users. I
would rather this be a callout to other purely open source tooling, such as
cruise control.

Divji brings up good question
1.  What value does additional of this page bring to the users of Apache
Kafka?

I think the community would be a better service to have a more synchronous
line of communication such as Slack/Discord and we call that out here. It
would be more inline with other major open source projects.

---
Kenneth Eversole

On Wed, Jan 10, 2024 at 10:30 AM Divij Vaidya <di...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> I don't see a need for this. What additional information does this provide
> over what can be found via a quick google search?
>
> My primary concern is that we are getting in the business of listing
> vendors in the project site which brings it's own complications without
> adding much additional value for users. In the spirit of being vendor
> neutral, I would try to avoid this as much as possible.
>
> So, my question to you is:
> 1. What value does additional of this page bring to the users of Apache
> Kafka?
> 2. When a new PR is submitted to add a vendor, what criteria do we have to
> decide whether to add them or not? If we keep a blanket criteria of
> accepting all PRs, then we may end up in a situation where the llink
> redirects to a phishing page or nefarious website. Hence, we might have to
> at least perform some basic due diligence which adds overhead to the
> resources of the community.
>
> --
> Divij Vaidya
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 10, 2024 at 5:00 PM fpapon <fp...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > After starting a first thread on this topic (
> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/kkox33rhtjcdr5zztq3lzj7c5s7k9wsr), I
> > would like to propose a PR:
> >
> > https://github.com/apache/kafka-site/pull/577
> >
> > The purpose of this proposal is to help users to find support for sla,
> > training, consulting...whatever that is not provide by the community as,
> > like we can already see in many ASF projects, no commercial support is
> > provided by the foundation. I think it could help with the adoption and
> the
> > growth of the project because the users
> > need commercial support for production issues.
> >
> > If the community is agree about this idea and want to move forward, I
> just
> > add one company in the PR but everybody can add some by providing a new
> PR
> > to complete the list. If people want me to add other you can reply to
> this
> > thread because it will be better to have several company at the first
> > publication of the page.
> >
> > Just provide the company-name and a short description of the service
> offer
> > around Apache Kafka. The information must be factual and informational in
> > nature and not be a marketing statement.
> >
> > regards,
> >
> > François
> >
> >
> >
>

Re: [PROPOSAL] Add commercial support page on website

[Kenneth Eversole <ke...@cloudflare.com.INVALID>]

I agree with Divji here and to be more pointed. I worry that if we go down
the path of adding vendors to a list it comes off as supporting their
product, not to mention could be a huge security risk for novice users. I
would rather this be a callout to other purely open source tooling, such as
cruise control.

Divji brings up good question
1.  What value does additional of this page bring to the users of Apache
Kafka?

I think the community would be a better service to have a more synchronous
line of communication such as Slack/Discord and we call that out here. It
would be more inline with other major open source projects.

---
Kenneth Eversole

On Wed, Jan 10, 2024 at 10:30 AM Divij Vaidya <di...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> I don't see a need for this. What additional information does this provide
> over what can be found via a quick google search?
>
> My primary concern is that we are getting in the business of listing
> vendors in the project site which brings it's own complications without
> adding much additional value for users. In the spirit of being vendor
> neutral, I would try to avoid this as much as possible.
>
> So, my question to you is:
> 1. What value does additional of this page bring to the users of Apache
> Kafka?
> 2. When a new PR is submitted to add a vendor, what criteria do we have to
> decide whether to add them or not? If we keep a blanket criteria of
> accepting all PRs, then we may end up in a situation where the llink
> redirects to a phishing page or nefarious website. Hence, we might have to
> at least perform some basic due diligence which adds overhead to the
> resources of the community.
>
> --
> Divij Vaidya
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 10, 2024 at 5:00 PM fpapon <fp...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > After starting a first thread on this topic (
> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/kkox33rhtjcdr5zztq3lzj7c5s7k9wsr), I
> > would like to propose a PR:
> >
> > https://github.com/apache/kafka-site/pull/577
> >
> > The purpose of this proposal is to help users to find support for sla,
> > training, consulting...whatever that is not provide by the community as,
> > like we can already see in many ASF projects, no commercial support is
> > provided by the foundation. I think it could help with the adoption and
> the
> > growth of the project because the users
> > need commercial support for production issues.
> >
> > If the community is agree about this idea and want to move forward, I
> just
> > add one company in the PR but everybody can add some by providing a new
> PR
> > to complete the list. If people want me to add other you can reply to
> this
> > thread because it will be better to have several company at the first
> > publication of the page.
> >
> > Just provide the company-name and a short description of the service
> offer
> > around Apache Kafka. The information must be factual and informational in
> > nature and not be a marketing statement.
> >
> > regards,
> >
> > François
> >
> >
> >
>

Re: [PROPOSAL] Add commercial support page on website

[fpapon <fp...@apache.org>]

Hi,

The purpose is not to mention or list vendor, it's not a page to list 
product based on Apache Kafka. The purpose is to list companies that 
offer support for production, training or consulting only on Apache Kafka.

It's a common use case where users are looking for a commercial support 
and this is something that the ASF doesn't provide so it's fair for 
companies to propose offers to cover this use case. It's fair and help 
the adoption of the project, like we can see in a lot of ASF projects 
and I think it's better for a user to have a list on the website rather 
than searching in google.

There is a mention in the text:

"The information must be factual and informational in nature and not be 
a marketing statement.
   Statements that promote your products and services over other 
offerings on the page will not be tolerated and
   will be removed. Such marketing statements can be added to your own 
pages on your own site, but not here."

About the "phishing page" it's about the committer to check that the PR 
to add a website is not a phishing and I'm not sure that their will be a 
lot of these kind of PR.

regards,

François

On 10/01/2024 17:29, Divij Vaidya wrote:
> I don't see a need for this. What additional information does this provide
> over what can be found via a quick google search?
>
> My primary concern is that we are getting in the business of listing
> vendors in the project site which brings it's own complications without
> adding much additional value for users. In the spirit of being vendor
> neutral, I would try to avoid this as much as possible.
>
> So, my question to you is:
> 1. What value does additional of this page bring to the users of Apache
> Kafka?
> 2. When a new PR is submitted to add a vendor, what criteria do we have to
> decide whether to add them or not? If we keep a blanket criteria of
> accepting all PRs, then we may end up in a situation where the llink
> redirects to a phishing page or nefarious website. Hence, we might have to
> at least perform some basic due diligence which adds overhead to the
> resources of the community.
>
> --
> Divij Vaidya
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 10, 2024 at 5:00 PM fpapon <fp...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> After starting a first thread on this topic (
>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/kkox33rhtjcdr5zztq3lzj7c5s7k9wsr), I
>> would like to propose a PR:
>>
>> https://github.com/apache/kafka-site/pull/577
>>
>> The purpose of this proposal is to help users to find support for sla,
>> training, consulting...whatever that is not provide by the community as,
>> like we can already see in many ASF projects, no commercial support is
>> provided by the foundation. I think it could help with the adoption and the
>> growth of the project because the users
>> need commercial support for production issues.
>>
>> If the community is agree about this idea and want to move forward, I just
>> add one company in the PR but everybody can add some by providing a new PR
>> to complete the list. If people want me to add other you can reply to this
>> thread because it will be better to have several company at the first
>> publication of the page.
>>
>> Just provide the company-name and a short description of the service offer
>> around Apache Kafka. The information must be factual and informational in
>> nature and not be a marketing statement.
>>
>> regards,
>>
>> François
>>
>>
>>
-- 
--
François

Re: [PROPOSAL] Add commercial support page on website

[Divij Vaidya <di...@gmail.com>]

I don't see a need for this. What additional information does this provide
over what can be found via a quick google search?

My primary concern is that we are getting in the business of listing
vendors in the project site which brings it's own complications without
adding much additional value for users. In the spirit of being vendor
neutral, I would try to avoid this as much as possible.

So, my question to you is:
1. What value does additional of this page bring to the users of Apache
Kafka?
2. When a new PR is submitted to add a vendor, what criteria do we have to
decide whether to add them or not? If we keep a blanket criteria of
accepting all PRs, then we may end up in a situation where the llink
redirects to a phishing page or nefarious website. Hence, we might have to
at least perform some basic due diligence which adds overhead to the
resources of the community.

--
Divij Vaidya



On Wed, Jan 10, 2024 at 5:00 PM fpapon <fp...@apache.org> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> After starting a first thread on this topic (
> https://lists.apache.org/thread/kkox33rhtjcdr5zztq3lzj7c5s7k9wsr), I
> would like to propose a PR:
>
> https://github.com/apache/kafka-site/pull/577
>
> The purpose of this proposal is to help users to find support for sla,
> training, consulting...whatever that is not provide by the community as,
> like we can already see in many ASF projects, no commercial support is
> provided by the foundation. I think it could help with the adoption and the
> growth of the project because the users
> need commercial support for production issues.
>
> If the community is agree about this idea and want to move forward, I just
> add one company in the PR but everybody can add some by providing a new PR
> to complete the list. If people want me to add other you can reply to this
> thread because it will be better to have several company at the first
> publication of the page.
>
> Just provide the company-name and a short description of the service offer
> around Apache Kafka. The information must be factual and informational in
> nature and not be a marketing statement.
>
> regards,
>
> François
>
>
>

Re: [PROPOSAL] Add commercial support page on website

[Divij Vaidya <di...@gmail.com>]

I don't see a need for this. What additional information does this provide
over what can be found via a quick google search?

My primary concern is that we are getting in the business of listing
vendors in the project site which brings it's own complications without
adding much additional value for users. In the spirit of being vendor
neutral, I would try to avoid this as much as possible.

So, my question to you is:
1. What value does additional of this page bring to the users of Apache
Kafka?
2. When a new PR is submitted to add a vendor, what criteria do we have to
decide whether to add them or not? If we keep a blanket criteria of
accepting all PRs, then we may end up in a situation where the llink
redirects to a phishing page or nefarious website. Hence, we might have to
at least perform some basic due diligence which adds overhead to the
resources of the community.

--
Divij Vaidya



On Wed, Jan 10, 2024 at 5:00 PM fpapon <fp...@apache.org> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> After starting a first thread on this topic (
> https://lists.apache.org/thread/kkox33rhtjcdr5zztq3lzj7c5s7k9wsr), I
> would like to propose a PR:
>
> https://github.com/apache/kafka-site/pull/577
>
> The purpose of this proposal is to help users to find support for sla,
> training, consulting...whatever that is not provide by the community as,
> like we can already see in many ASF projects, no commercial support is
> provided by the foundation. I think it could help with the adoption and the
> growth of the project because the users
> need commercial support for production issues.
>
> If the community is agree about this idea and want to move forward, I just
> add one company in the PR but everybody can add some by providing a new PR
> to complete the list. If people want me to add other you can reply to this
> thread because it will be better to have several company at the first
> publication of the page.
>
> Just provide the company-name and a short description of the service offer
> around Apache Kafka. The information must be factual and informational in
> nature and not be a marketing statement.
>
> regards,
>
> François
>
>
>