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Posted to dev@xalan.apache.org by Gary Gregory <ga...@gmail.com> on 2022/07/13 11:56:10 UTC
Retire Xalan to the Attic
Hello All,
Let us consider retiring the Apache Xalan project to the Attic, or at
least its Xalan-J component.
While it saddens me that I've not taken the time to continue
maintaining this project, I see the following:
- No one remembers or knows _for sure_ how to release components like
Xalan-J, specifically what svn, now git branches are for what. I did
the last Xalan-J release a long time ago and it would take a lot of
effort to gather up the pieces to do another, and Xalan-J should
really have a maintenance release. I don't want to take my FOSS time
to do this ATM.
- I have pinged this very list in the past for help on building
Xalan-J and received zero feedback, so I can only conclude that, aside
from me for the Xalan-J side at least, there is no institutional
knowledge left.
- There are a number of Xalan-J Jira tickets that have been left dying
on the vine, some with patches even.
- Very little if any Xalan-J user activity, which might be
self-fulfilling due to project inactivity
- On the Xalan-C side, there has been some activity so there might be
hope there. I've never worked on the Xalan-C component so I cannot say
anything about it.
- We could retire the Xalan-J component and keep Xalan-C alive, thus
keeping this PMC alive.
What are your thoughts?
Before you consider volunteering to perform a release, I would
encourage you to try locally, building a release is a lot more than
compiling a jar ;-) and there might not be anyone available to help
once you hit a snag, IOW, pitfalls, and time sink.
Gary (PMC Chair)
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RE: Retire Xalan to the Attic
Posted by Vladimir Sitnikov <vl...@apache.org>.
Roger> It would also be highly beneficial if we could have some CI build and test workflow in place with e.g. GitHub Actions, so we can verify that it builds and passes successfully. If a new public release is going to be made, I think this is a requirement.
I added apache/xalan-test test execution to GitHub Actions: https://github.com/vlsi/xalan-java/runs/7496001505?check_suite_focus=true
Vladimir
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RE: Retire Xalan to the Attic
Posted by Roger Leigh <rl...@codelibre.net>.
Hi Vladimir,
The changes all look reasonable to me, but you might want to create a Jira ticket for the work.
On the point about stylebook. For xalan-c I really struggled to get an old JVM that could run with the old stylebook jar, and it's long retired. I ended up moving the entire documentation set to use GitHub pages, which may be found here: https://apache.github.io/xalan-c/ with the sources here: https://github.com/apache/xalan-c/tree/master/docs. The conversion took a bit of effort (I'd do a build of the HTML then convert that to Markdown if I were to repeat it), but if you wanted to get rid of the stylebook dependency this is a reasonable way to do it--feel free to copy any of the documentation over that you like.
It would also be highly beneficial if we could have some CI build and test workflow in place with e.g. GitHub Actions, so we can verify that it builds and passes successfully. If a new public release is going to be made, I think this is a requirement.
Kind regards,
Roger
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Vladimir Sitnikov <vl...@apache.org>
> Sent: 24 July 2022 20:45
> To: dev@xalan.apache.org
> Subject: RE: Retire Xalan to the Attic
>
> Here's a PR that fixes xalan-j build: https://github.com/apache/xalan-
> j/pull/14
>
> Release to Central will need to be performed manually, however, it should
> be acceptable for now.
>
> Vladimir
>
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Re: Retire Xalan to the Attic
Posted by Vladimir Sitnikov <vl...@apache.org>.
> Since, we earlier on this list (about two months ago)
Was the CVE-2022-34169 known by that time?
I expect you did not anticipate the CVE back then when you agreed on 1.8, so that is the reason I suggest considering something below 1.8 for the next release. 1.7 is fine.
> I think, fixing the CVE that you're referring to, is to support Apache JMeter
Well, releasing Xalan with the fix would ease JMeter maintenance, and it would help
many more people who use xalan.jar.
I do not suggest maintaining Xalan indefinitely, however, it would be nice to fix the known CVE.
Vladimir
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Re: Retire Xalan to the Attic
Posted by Mukul Gandhi <mu...@apache.org>.
Hi Vladimir,
I think, fixing the CVE that you're referring to, is to support
Apache JMeter.
I'm personally fine, keeping the Java byte code level to 1.7 for the
next XalanJ release. We can't keep byte code level lower than 1.7, for
XalanJ's next release, because otherwise XalanJ's next release can't
use latest XercesJ (since its byte code is at level 1.7).
Since, we earlier on this list (about two months ago), agreed to have
byte code level to 1.8 for XalanJ's next release (it was Gary's
suggestion, and we agreed to that). I hope, Gary or others on this
list shall not have objections, keeping byte code level to 1.7, for
XalanJ's next release.
On Mon, Jul 25, 2022 at 3:29 PM Vladimir Sitnikov
<vl...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> If we consider "fix CVE" release, then keeping 1.5 or 1.7 bytecode would make sense.
> Just in case: 1.8 would be fine for me, however, releasing the CVE fix with 1.5 bytecode would not be harder than 1.8, and it would help a broader set of users.
--
Regards,
Mukul Gandhi
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Re: Retire Xalan to the Attic
Posted by Vladimir Sitnikov <vl...@apache.org>.
>decided to use Java 8 to produce XalanJ's next release
If we consider "fix CVE" release, then keeping 1.5 or 1.7 bytecode would make sense.
Just in case: 1.8 would be fine for me, however, releasing the CVE fix with 1.5 bytecode would not be harder than 1.8, and it would help a broader set of users.
Vladimir
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Re: Retire Xalan to the Attic
Posted by Mukul Gandhi <mu...@apache.org>.
Hi Vladimir,
On Mon, Jul 25, 2022 at 1:14 AM Vladimir Sitnikov
<vl...@apache.org> wrote:
> Here's a PR that fixes xalan-j build: https://github.com/apache/xalan-j/pull/14
It seems that, you're working with github XalanJ repos apache/xalan-j.
I think, we should be working with github XalanJ repos
apache/xalan-java. And I think, the next version of XalanJ should be
released from branch xalan-j_2_7_1_maint, of the github repos
apache/xalan-java.
We had about two months ago, decided to use Java 8 to produce XalanJ's
next release (i.e, we should produce Java 8 bytecode for the next
XalanJ release), which I think is the current status quo for this
point (ref, the jira issue
https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/XALANJ-2601).
--
Regards,
Mukul Gandhi
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RE: Retire Xalan to the Attic
Posted by Vladimir Sitnikov <vl...@apache.org>.
Here's a PR that fixes xalan-j build: https://github.com/apache/xalan-j/pull/14
Release to Central will need to be performed manually, however, it should be acceptable for now.
Vladimir
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RE: Retire Xalan to the Attic
Posted by Vladimir Sitnikov <vl...@apache.org>.
>Java 11 (LTS) might be a better baseline
1) Building Xalan with Java 8 is **easier** than building xalan-j with Java 11.
2) Raising "bytecode level to Java 11" does not seem to be reasonable for fixing CVE. So I'm inclined that we should fix the CVE with keeping the bytecode at java 1.7.
I just checked, and Java11 allows building with target=1.6.
Java 8 allows building with target=1.5
3) Having bytecode at 1.7 (or 1.5/1.6) would make it easier for the consumers to drop-replace xalan-2.7.2.jar with xalan-2.7.3.jar
>Companies which are paying to stick with these old versions are also highly unlikely to be upgrading Xalan-J to a new version
They will upgrade provided there's a trivial upgrade path.
For xalan 2.7.2 we could make a release that brings minimal disruption and which fixes the CVE.
For example, many companies would happily upgrade log4j 1.2.17 to 1.2.18 provided The case is very same there, and many companies have to fork log4j1 for the sole reason of fixing CVEs.
Vladimir
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RE: Retire Xalan to the Attic
Posted by Roger Leigh <rl...@codelibre.net>.
Hi,
Regarding JDK versions to support, it might be worth looking at the roadmap here: https://www.oracle.com/java/technologies/java-se-support-roadmap.html. Support for Java 1.7 ended in 2015. Extended support ends this month (July 2022). https://blogs.oracle.com/java/post/java-se-7-end-of-extended-support-in-july-2022. Java 1.8 support is a bit more nebulous but commercial support ended in March 2022. Extended support for paying customers ends in 2030.
Java 11 (LTS) might be a better baseline.
It really depends upon who you are trying to support here, and what their needs are. In the absence of additional constraints, I would question why we would put effort into supporting thoroughly obsolete JDK versions which are no longer supported. Companies which are paying to stick with these old versions are also highly unlikely to be upgrading Xalan-J to a new version.
Kind regards,
Roger
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Vladimir Sitnikov <vl...@apache.org>
> Sent: 24 July 2022 11:23
> To: dev@xalan.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Retire Xalan to the Attic
>
> > I think 1.7 is the earliest I can _easily_ compile for...
>
> Just in case, I added GitHub Actions in my fork:
> https://github.com/vlsi/xalan-
> j/runs/7487182942?check_suite_focus=true#step:4:1889
>
> Here are all the changes: https://github.com/apache/xalan-
> j/compare/trunk...vlsi:xalan-j:trunk
>
> Vladimir
>
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Re: Retire Xalan to the Attic
Posted by Vladimir Sitnikov <vl...@apache.org>.
> I think 1.7 is the earliest I can _easily_ compile for...
Just in case, I added GitHub Actions in my fork: https://github.com/vlsi/xalan-j/runs/7487182942?check_suite_focus=true#step:4:1889
Here are all the changes: https://github.com/apache/xalan-j/compare/trunk...vlsi:xalan-j:trunk
Vladimir
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Re: Retire Xalan to the Attic
Posted by Joseph Kesselman <ke...@alum.mit.edu>.
If we're willing to bring Xalan-j forward to a recent Java, that does seem to be the biggest hurdle. I think 1.7 is the earliest I can _easily_ compile for...
________________________________
From: Vladimir Sitnikov <vl...@apache.org>
Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2022 5:14 AM
To: dev@xalan.apache.org <de...@xalan.apache.org>
Subject: Re: Retire Xalan to the Attic
Mukul>I feel that, XalanJ should not move to Attic sometime soon
+1
I wonder if we can fix CVE in xalan-j, and then let it rest, move to attic or whatever.
The CVE is trivial to fix, so I belive it would be vey nice of Xalan PMC to release a fix.
I came from Apache JMeter here (see https://bz.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=66171 ), and it turns out that JMeter has non-trivial use of xalan-j.
Of course, we could spend some time on replacing xalan-j with something else,
however, it is cumbersome, and it would be way easier if we could have more time doing that.
Just in case: CVE raises red flags, so having that "CVE pressure" is not really helpful for JMeter devs.
Gary> Before you consider volunteering to perform a release, I would
Gary> encourage you to try locally, building a release is a lot more than
Gary> compiling a jar ;-) and there might not be anyone available to help
Gary> once you hit a snag, IOW, pitfalls, and time sink.
Gary, I was able to build xalan-j on my macOS 12 with Java 11 with minor updates like "bump minimal Java from 1.3 to 1.7, and remove explicit boot classpath overrides".
I spent less than 15 minutes to get xalan-j_2_7_2-bin.tar.gz, xalan-j_2_7_2-src.tar.gz.
So I don't understand what do you mean by "try locally". It just works.
Well, -src.tar.gz contains several jar files which are no-no under the current ASF policy,
however, I believe the jars could be downloaded from the Internet via small Ant task,
so it would not take much time to rip off the jars from src.tar.gz and still keep the sources buildable.
So would you please consider releasing xalan-j to fix the CVE?
Vladimir
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Re: Retire Xalan to the Attic
Posted by Vladimir Sitnikov <vl...@apache.org>.
Mukul>I feel that, XalanJ should not move to Attic sometime soon
+1
I wonder if we can fix CVE in xalan-j, and then let it rest, move to attic or whatever.
The CVE is trivial to fix, so I belive it would be vey nice of Xalan PMC to release a fix.
I came from Apache JMeter here (see https://bz.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=66171 ), and it turns out that JMeter has non-trivial use of xalan-j.
Of course, we could spend some time on replacing xalan-j with something else,
however, it is cumbersome, and it would be way easier if we could have more time doing that.
Just in case: CVE raises red flags, so having that "CVE pressure" is not really helpful for JMeter devs.
Gary> Before you consider volunteering to perform a release, I would
Gary> encourage you to try locally, building a release is a lot more than
Gary> compiling a jar ;-) and there might not be anyone available to help
Gary> once you hit a snag, IOW, pitfalls, and time sink.
Gary, I was able to build xalan-j on my macOS 12 with Java 11 with minor updates like "bump minimal Java from 1.3 to 1.7, and remove explicit boot classpath overrides".
I spent less than 15 minutes to get xalan-j_2_7_2-bin.tar.gz, xalan-j_2_7_2-src.tar.gz.
So I don't understand what do you mean by "try locally". It just works.
Well, -src.tar.gz contains several jar files which are no-no under the current ASF policy,
however, I believe the jars could be downloaded from the Internet via small Ant task,
so it would not take much time to rip off the jars from src.tar.gz and still keep the sources buildable.
So would you please consider releasing xalan-j to fix the CVE?
Vladimir
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Re: Retire Xalan to the Attic
Posted by Mukul Gandhi <mu...@apache.org>.
Hi Gary,
I believe that, XalanJ is a pretty nice project, and useful to
programming community in various circumstances. I personally, use
XalanJ from time to time, even these days. Currently, I frequently
use, XalanJ's XPath 1.0 engine for various kinds of work. XalanJ's
XSLT 1.0 implementation, is awesome as well, and I use that
occasionally as well these days.
I've thought over the past couple of days over this topic, since I saw
your original mail within this thread, suggesting to move XalanJ to
Attic. IMHO, I feel that, XalanJ should not move to Attic sometime
soon. Even if, XalanJ developers have not been much active over the
last couple of months or years, I believe that, XalanJ project should
be active at Apache, for the benefit of XML and XSLT community and for
those who integrate XalanJ within their applications.
If I may compare, XSLT 1.0 to something as awesome as C language,
despite many newer and widely adopted language these days, likeness of
C language within the programming community hasn't reduced, and still
C language is used whenever its needed. I believe that, the same holds
true for XSLT 1.0 as well.
On Wed, Jul 13, 2022 at 5:26 PM Gary Gregory <ga...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hello All,
>
> Let us consider retiring the Apache Xalan project to the Attic, or at
> least its Xalan-J component.
>
> While it saddens me that I've not taken the time to continue
> maintaining this project, I see the following:
> - No one remembers or knows _for sure_ how to release components like
> Xalan-J, specifically what svn, now git branches are for what. I did
> the last Xalan-J release a long time ago and it would take a lot of
> effort to gather up the pieces to do another, and Xalan-J should
> really have a maintenance release. I don't want to take my FOSS time
> to do this ATM.
> - I have pinged this very list in the past for help on building
> Xalan-J and received zero feedback, so I can only conclude that, aside
> from me for the Xalan-J side at least, there is no institutional
> knowledge left.
> - There are a number of Xalan-J Jira tickets that have been left dying
> on the vine, some with patches even.
> - Very little if any Xalan-J user activity, which might be
> self-fulfilling due to project inactivity
> - On the Xalan-C side, there has been some activity so there might be
> hope there. I've never worked on the Xalan-C component so I cannot say
> anything about it.
> - We could retire the Xalan-J component and keep Xalan-C alive, thus
> keeping this PMC alive.
>
> What are your thoughts?
>
> Before you consider volunteering to perform a release, I would
> encourage you to try locally, building a release is a lot more than
> compiling a jar ;-) and there might not be anyone available to help
> once you hit a snag, IOW, pitfalls, and time sink.
>
> Gary (PMC Chair)
--
Regards,
Mukul Gandhi
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Re: Retire Xalan to the Attic
Posted by jean-frederic clere <jf...@gmail.com>.
On 13/07/2022 13:56, Gary Gregory wrote:
> What are your thoughts?
Did you check with the xerces community?
Someone might be able to help there.
--
Cheers
Jean-Frederic
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RE: Retire Xalan to the Attic
Posted by Roger Leigh <rl...@codelibre.net>.
> -----Original Message-----
> Let us consider retiring the Apache Xalan project to the Attic, or at least its
> Xalan-J component.
...
> - On the Xalan-C side, there has been some activity so there might be hope
> there. I've never worked on the Xalan-C component so I cannot say anything
> about it.
I'm the only one who worked on it in the last few years, and I sent this message to the list last month to ask exactly the same question:
https://lists.apache.org/thread/f76q63ktdpt1y888qqo1fo711smn4jkw
The responses to the question are included in the thread.
I was going to leave this for another week before asking if we should have a vote on moving the xalan-c project to the Attic, but I think we've received all of the responses we can hope to get, given that the question was asked three weeks ago. Would anyone like to initiate that call for votes?
Kind regards,
Roger
Re: Retire Xalan to the Attic
Posted by Mukul Gandhi <mu...@apache.org>.
Hi Joseph,
On Wed, Jul 13, 2022 at 10:01 PM Joseph Kesselman <ke...@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
>
> There is the question of which Java to build against these days.
I believe that, we've sometime ago on this list, decided to build next
version of Xalan Java with Java 1.8.
To reiterate as well (anyone may correct me, if I'm wrong), Xalan
Java's root git location is
https://gitbox.apache.org/repos/asf?p=xalan-java.git, and next version
of Xalan Java needs to be built from the branch xalan-j_2_7_1_maint.
--
Regards,
Mukul Gandhi
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Re: Retire Xalan to the Attic
Posted by Joseph Kesselman <ke...@alum.mit.edu>.
Hm. The build instructions on the website still reference svn, don't they.
Even if we were just going to archive, that should be corrected...
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On Jul 13, 2022 7:56 AM, Gary Gregory <ga...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello All,
>
> Let us consider retiring the Apache Xalan project to the Attic, or at
> least its Xalan-J component.
>
> While it saddens me that I've not taken the time to continue
> maintaining this project, I see the following:
> \- No one remembers or knows _for sure_ how to release components like
> Xalan-J, specifically what svn, now git branches are for what. I did
> the last Xalan-J release a long time ago and it would take a lot of
> effort to gather up the pieces to do another, and Xalan-J should
> really have a maintenance release. I don't want to take my FOSS time
> to do this ATM.
> \- I have pinged this very list in the past for help on building
> Xalan-J and received zero feedback, so I can only conclude that, aside
> from me for the Xalan-J side at least, there is no institutional
> knowledge left.
> \- There are a number of Xalan-J Jira tickets that have been left dying
> on the vine, some with patches even.
> \- Very little if any Xalan-J user activity, which might be
> self-fulfilling due to project inactivity
> \- On the Xalan-C side, there has been some activity so there might be
> hope there. I've never worked on the Xalan-C component so I cannot say
> anything about it.
> \- We could retire the Xalan-J component and keep Xalan-C alive, thus
> keeping this PMC alive.
>
> What are your thoughts?
>
> Before you consider volunteering to perform a release, I would
> encourage you to try locally, building a release is a lot more than
> compiling a jar ;-) and there might not be anyone available to help
> once you hit a snag, IOW, pitfalls, and time sink.
>
> Gary (PMC Chair)
>
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Re: Retire Xalan to the Attic
Posted by Joseph Kesselman <ke...@alum.mit.edu>.
Most of the branches, of course, are old stuff that should probably have been
discarded long ago, either because incorporated or abandoned.
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On Jul 13, 2022 7:56 AM, Gary Gregory <ga...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello All,
>
> Let us consider retiring the Apache Xalan project to the Attic, or at
> least its Xalan-J component.
>
> While it saddens me that I've not taken the time to continue
> maintaining this project, I see the following:
> \- No one remembers or knows _for sure_ how to release components like
> Xalan-J, specifically what svn, now git branches are for what. I did
> the last Xalan-J release a long time ago and it would take a lot of
> effort to gather up the pieces to do another, and Xalan-J should
> really have a maintenance release. I don't want to take my FOSS time
> to do this ATM.
> \- I have pinged this very list in the past for help on building
> Xalan-J and received zero feedback, so I can only conclude that, aside
> from me for the Xalan-J side at least, there is no institutional
> knowledge left.
> \- There are a number of Xalan-J Jira tickets that have been left dying
> on the vine, some with patches even.
> \- Very little if any Xalan-J user activity, which might be
> self-fulfilling due to project inactivity
> \- On the Xalan-C side, there has been some activity so there might be
> hope there. I've never worked on the Xalan-C component so I cannot say
> anything about it.
> \- We could retire the Xalan-J component and keep Xalan-C alive, thus
> keeping this PMC alive.
>
> What are your thoughts?
>
> Before you consider volunteering to perform a release, I would
> encourage you to try locally, building a release is a lot more than
> compiling a jar ;-) and there might not be anyone available to help
> once you hit a snag, IOW, pitfalls, and time sink.
>
> Gary (PMC Chair)
>
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>
Re: Retire Xalan to the Attic
Posted by Joseph Kesselman <ke...@alum.mit.edu>.
Certainly willing to at least look at running a build and see how much I can
recall.
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On Jul 13, 2022 7:56 AM, Gary Gregory <ga...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello All,
>
> Let us consider retiring the Apache Xalan project to the Attic, or at
> least its Xalan-J component.
>
> While it saddens me that I've not taken the time to continue
> maintaining this project, I see the following:
> \- No one remembers or knows _for sure_ how to release components like
> Xalan-J, specifically what svn, now git branches are for what. I did
> the last Xalan-J release a long time ago and it would take a lot of
> effort to gather up the pieces to do another, and Xalan-J should
> really have a maintenance release. I don't want to take my FOSS time
> to do this ATM.
> \- I have pinged this very list in the past for help on building
> Xalan-J and received zero feedback, so I can only conclude that, aside
> from me for the Xalan-J side at least, there is no institutional
> knowledge left.
> \- There are a number of Xalan-J Jira tickets that have been left dying
> on the vine, some with patches even.
> \- Very little if any Xalan-J user activity, which might be
> self-fulfilling due to project inactivity
> \- On the Xalan-C side, there has been some activity so there might be
> hope there. I've never worked on the Xalan-C component so I cannot say
> anything about it.
> \- We could retire the Xalan-J component and keep Xalan-C alive, thus
> keeping this PMC alive.
>
> What are your thoughts?
>
> Before you consider volunteering to perform a release, I would
> encourage you to try locally, building a release is a lot more than
> compiling a jar ;-) and there might not be anyone available to help
> once you hit a snag, IOW, pitfalls, and time sink.
>
> Gary (PMC Chair)
>
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Re: Retire Xalan to the Attic
Posted by Joseph Kesselman <ke...@alum.mit.edu>.
There is the question of which Java to build against these days.
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On Jul 13, 2022 7:56 AM, Gary Gregory <ga...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello All,
>
> Let us consider retiring the Apache Xalan project to the Attic, or at
> least its Xalan-J component.
>
> While it saddens me that I've not taken the time to continue
> maintaining this project, I see the following:
> \- No one remembers or knows _for sure_ how to release components like
> Xalan-J, specifically what svn, now git branches are for what. I did
> the last Xalan-J release a long time ago and it would take a lot of
> effort to gather up the pieces to do another, and Xalan-J should
> really have a maintenance release. I don't want to take my FOSS time
> to do this ATM.
> \- I have pinged this very list in the past for help on building
> Xalan-J and received zero feedback, so I can only conclude that, aside
> from me for the Xalan-J side at least, there is no institutional
> knowledge left.
> \- There are a number of Xalan-J Jira tickets that have been left dying
> on the vine, some with patches even.
> \- Very little if any Xalan-J user activity, which might be
> self-fulfilling due to project inactivity
> \- On the Xalan-C side, there has been some activity so there might be
> hope there. I've never worked on the Xalan-C component so I cannot say
> anything about it.
> \- We could retire the Xalan-J component and keep Xalan-C alive, thus
> keeping this PMC alive.
>
> What are your thoughts?
>
> Before you consider volunteering to perform a release, I would
> encourage you to try locally, building a release is a lot more than
> compiling a jar ;-) and there might not be anyone available to help
> once you hit a snag, IOW, pitfalls, and time sink.
>
> Gary (PMC Chair)
>
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