[discuss] graduation: what is the 'hand over'?

[Martijn Dashorst <ma...@gmail.com>]

I am in the process of going through the graduation guide
(graduation.xml in the guides directory of the incubator website), and
I came across a TODO: section and didn't know what to do with it (no
pun intended).

What is the post-graduation 'Hand Over'?

To me the process for a TLP is in a simplified form:
 - create graduation proposal
 - vote on the proposal by the ppmc
 - vote on the proposal by the ipmc
 - vote on the proposal by the board

instant karma

 - move podling resources to TLP resources

done.

The graduation guide says that there are two things following the move
of the resources:
 * "The Hand Over"
 * solving "Remaining Obstacles"

Perhaps the IPMC can shed a light on this question?

Martijn

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Re: [discuss] graduation: what is the 'hand over'?

[Leo Simons <ma...@leosimons.com>]

On May 8, 2007, at 11:57 PM, robert burrell donkin wrote:
> i've written this up into the graduation document. unless leo has any
> objections, i'll commit it.

You're kidding right? :-)

Thanks for doing the hard work Robert!

- Leo, who is reminded of the need to write up that proposal for RAT...


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Re: [discuss] graduation: what is the 'hand over'?

[robert burrell donkin <ro...@gmail.com>]

On 5/5/07, Leo Simons <ma...@leosimons.com> wrote:
> On May 3, 2007, at 5:56 PM, Martijn Dashorst wrote:

<snip>

> > What is the post-graduation 'Hand Over'?
>
> No idea. Heh. I think we don't really have one.
>
> The board@ tries to notify us almost immediately after they vote on
> any resolution; usually via an e-mail to board@ as well as the
> relevant private@ PMC list if that applies. I guess the Chairman is
> always supposed to do that, but he's a busy man, so others help out.
> Sometimes they all forget, and the way to work around that is to nag
> your favorite board member into sending an email after you don't hear
> anything (say, 72 hours) after the board meeting (I recommend people
> pick Henri for nagging, since he's often most responsive for these
> kinds of questions) so they remember.
>
> After such a board resolution, apache will have a new PMC with an
> associated new chair/VP, who can then act on their own behalf (like
> requesting infra resources). We assume (given that they're all
> graduated and stuff), they'll know what to do next.
>
> In practice it's not that great of an assumption. So a pattern that
> has worked pretty well in the past is that the most active/
> experienced/gullible mentor becomes the PMC chair initially, and then
> optionally that person can help "groom" someone else from within the
> community to take over after a few months.
>
> > To me the process for a TLP is in a simplified form:
> - make sure status files and the like are up-to-date and completed
> > - create graduation proposal
> > - vote on the proposal by the ppmc
> > - vote on the proposal by the ipmc
> > - vote on the proposal by the board
> >
> > instant karma
>
> Heh. The new PMC has the power to ask for karma, at least, but
> response times from infrastructure may vary :-). Follow procedures
>
>    http://www.apache.org/dev/
>
> for interacting with infrastructure@.
>
> > - move podling resources to TLP resources
>
> There's a checklist at
>
>    http://incubator.apache.org/incubation/Incubation_Policy.html#Post-
> Graduation+Check+List
>
> That checklist is missing at least
>
>    * new chair subscribes to board@ mailing list
>    * new chair subscribes to infrastructure@ mailing list
>    * new chair gets self added to pmc chairs group in svnauth
>    * entire PMC reviews
>      (add salt since process docs are permanently out-of-date)
>      ** http://www.apache.org/dev/pmc.html
>      ** http://www.apache.org/dev/#pmc
>    * chair reviews
>      (add salt since process docs are permanently out-of-date)
>      ** http://wiki.apache.org/jakarta/RoleOfChair
>      ** http://www.apache.org/dev/pmc.html#chair
>      ** http://incubator.apache.org/guides/chair.html
>         (no idea why the tidbits on that page live over there, most
> of it should be at www.a.o/dev/)
>      ** http://www.apache.org/foundation/board/calendar.html
>         (to figure out how to write reports for the board@)
>    * for the first 3 months after graduation, chair submits a
>      report to the board every month. After that, slot into the
>      quarterly reporting schedule. Work with board@.
>    * stick around the incubator and help future projects have
>      an easier time than you did

<snip>

i've written this up into the graduation document. unless leo has any
objections, i'll commit it.

- robert

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Re: [discuss] graduation: what is the 'hand over'?

[Leo Simons <ma...@leosimons.com>]

On May 3, 2007, at 5:56 PM, Martijn Dashorst wrote:
> I am in the process of going through the graduation guide
> (graduation.xml in the guides directory of the incubator website),

wow, that's pretty detailed. It's also not linked from the main menu.

> and I came across a TODO: section and didn't know what to do with  
> it (no
> pun intended).
>
> What is the post-graduation 'Hand Over'?

No idea. Heh. I think we don't really have one.

The board@ tries to notify us almost immediately after they vote on  
any resolution; usually via an e-mail to board@ as well as the  
relevant private@ PMC list if that applies. I guess the Chairman is  
always supposed to do that, but he's a busy man, so others help out.  
Sometimes they all forget, and the way to work around that is to nag  
your favorite board member into sending an email after you don't hear  
anything (say, 72 hours) after the board meeting (I recommend people  
pick Henri for nagging, since he's often most responsive for these  
kinds of questions) so they remember.

After such a board resolution, apache will have a new PMC with an  
associated new chair/VP, who can then act on their own behalf (like  
requesting infra resources). We assume (given that they're all  
graduated and stuff), they'll know what to do next.

In practice it's not that great of an assumption. So a pattern that  
has worked pretty well in the past is that the most active/ 
experienced/gullible mentor becomes the PMC chair initially, and then  
optionally that person can help "groom" someone else from within the  
community to take over after a few months.

> To me the process for a TLP is in a simplified form:
- make sure status files and the like are up-to-date and completed
> - create graduation proposal
> - vote on the proposal by the ppmc
> - vote on the proposal by the ipmc
> - vote on the proposal by the board
>
> instant karma

Heh. The new PMC has the power to ask for karma, at least, but  
response times from infrastructure may vary :-). Follow procedures

   http://www.apache.org/dev/

for interacting with infrastructure@.

> - move podling resources to TLP resources

There's a checklist at

   http://incubator.apache.org/incubation/Incubation_Policy.html#Post- 
Graduation+Check+List

That checklist is missing at least

   * new chair subscribes to board@ mailing list
   * new chair subscribes to infrastructure@ mailing list
   * new chair gets self added to pmc chairs group in svnauth
   * entire PMC reviews
     (add salt since process docs are permanently out-of-date)
     ** http://www.apache.org/dev/pmc.html
     ** http://www.apache.org/dev/#pmc
   * chair reviews
     (add salt since process docs are permanently out-of-date)
     ** http://wiki.apache.org/jakarta/RoleOfChair
     ** http://www.apache.org/dev/pmc.html#chair
     ** http://incubator.apache.org/guides/chair.html
        (no idea why the tidbits on that page live over there, most  
of it should be at www.a.o/dev/)
     ** http://www.apache.org/foundation/board/calendar.html
        (to figure out how to write reports for the board@)
   * for the first 3 months after graduation, chair submits a
     report to the board every month. After that, slot into the
     quarterly reporting schedule. Work with board@.
   * stick around the incubator and help future projects have
     an easier time than you did

> The graduation guide says that there are two things following the move
> of the resources:
> * "The Hand Over"

I guess I sort-of gave an answer, above.

> * solving "Remaining Obstacles"

No idea what those would be. "It depends".

> Perhaps the IPMC can shed a light on this question?

In general, the amount of documentation for "how to be a PMC" is a  
lot less than we have for "how to incubate". PMCs are supposed to be  
"self-managing", which means each PMC figures out what their  
obstacles are all by themselves.

Usually by the time a project graduates it knows what to expect in  
terms of handholding (i.e.: not much) or extensive and correct policy  
documentation (i.e.: not much). So obstacles can include things such  
as "we need a unix group on people.a.o to own our releases" or "we  
need a solaris zone on the zone server to host a demo version of our  
software" or "I need to figure out how to make Marvin (a mailbot)  
send me those you-need-to-send-your-board-report reminders".


cheers,


- Leo the process weenie


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