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Posted to dev@harmony.apache.org by Tomer Barletz <to...@regard.co.il> on 2005/05/17 14:02:24 UTC
Gosling on Harmony
http://www.devx.com/Java/Article/28125?trk=DXRSS_JAVA
Looks like Doc java is pretty upset...
Re: Gosling on Harmony
Posted by Sheref Younan <sh...@gmail.com>.
On 5/18/05, theUser BL <th...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> For this here is a new article:
> http://software.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=05/05/16/1358227&from=rss
>
> It seems, that now Sun want to bring more and more parts of OOo2 to the
> Java-platform.
>
> Greatings
> theuserbl
>
how does this article says that Sun want to bring more and more parts
of OOo2 to the
Java-platform, quite the contrary, this will lead to less dependency
on Sun's JVM and we will start to take other opensource JVM's more
seriously
Re: Gosling on Harmony
Posted by theUser BL <th...@hotmail.com>.
At first I want to cite myself:
>Sun have given with OpenOffice.org the OpenSource-community a lot.
>But with Java, it looks a little bit diffrent.
>And the reason is, that Java _is_ already popular. So they see no need to
>make it more popular.
>[...]
>The idea behind it is clear: Letting a platform closed source or commercial
>(Java by Sun, Windows/.net by Microsoft) and give products which run on
>this platform away for free or OpenSource, to make the platform more
>public.
For this here is a new article:
http://software.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=05/05/16/1358227&from=rss
It seems, that now Sun want to bring more and more parts of OOo2 to the
Java-platform.
Greatings
theuserbl
Re: Gosling on Harmony
Posted by theUser BL <th...@hotmail.com>.
>Ahmed Saad wrote:
>>The "clear need" that Magnusson cites is anything but clear to Gosling,
>>who says Sun has received negative response from the enterprise
>>development community regarding the idea of open-source Java."
>
>You need read no further than "if this thing turned into an open source
>project—where just any old person could check in stuff" to understand that
>Gosling is living in an alternate reality.
What a lot of people forgot is, that Sun is a firm like any other else.
It is not better and not warser then other firms.
When Gosling, McNealy or anybody of the other people by Sun say, that Java
is already nearly like an OpenSource license, than it is the same like when
Microsoft say, that their Shared Source license is better then OpenSource.
Ok, the SCSL is better then SharedSource, but the idea behind it, is
similar.
Sun have given with OpenOffice.org the OpenSource-community a lot.
But with Java, it looks a little bit diffrent.
And the reason is, that Java _is_ already popular. So they see no need to
make it more popular.
The same ist with OpenSolaris and so on. Because there migrate more people
from Solaris to Linux, they put the x86 Solaris version under an OpenSource
license - the CDDL.
And I say, if Sun would be in the position of Microsoft, they would also act
like Microsoft today.
And don't forget this:
http://www.sun.com/aboutsun/media/features/sun_microsoft.html
The other thing, Sun does is, that they put Looking Glass, NetBeans and so
on under an OpenSource license.
In a liller scale Microsoft have also published WiX and some other projects
under an OpenSource liicense. And there compileres are free of charge, if
you only use it on Windows.
The idea behind it is clear: Letting a platform closed source or commercial
(Java by Sun, Windows/.net by Microsoft) and give products which run on this
platform away for free or OpenSource, to make the platform more public.
Btw: I wonder, that my comment in the Java.net-forum at
http://forums.java.net/jive/thread.jspa?threadID=671&tstart=0
is since the 13.5. the last one and nobody contradicting me there.
Greatings
theuserbl
Re: Gosling on Harmony
Posted by Ben Laurie <be...@algroup.co.uk>.
Ahmed Saad wrote:
> The "clear need" that Magnusson cites is anything but clear to Gosling, who
> says Sun has received negative response from the enterprise development
> community regarding the idea of open-source Java."
You need read no further than "if this thing turned into an open source
project—where just any old person could check in stuff" to understand
that Gosling is living in an alternate reality.
--
http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html http://www.thebunker.net/
"There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he
doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff
Re: Gosling on Harmony
Posted by Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com>.
Hi Danese,
Since the VOTE on the proposal has closed with a positive result. I'd
love to hear with your INTEL hat on :)
-- dims
On 5/18/05, Danese Cooper <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Much as I admire James, I have to say that the responses from
> enterprise developers of which he presumably speaks were carefully
> choreographed by the organizers of JavaONE (who are of course Sun
> employees). Its the old story...you can't ask a question without
> influencing the answer. When Sun asks they often hear what they want
> to hear. When Tim O'Reilly asked the same question a month later at
> OSCON he got the opposite answer (of course). I spent 6 years at Sun
> asking the question every chance I got and probably because of who I
> am I heard clear support for a *compatible* open J2SE...which is what
> Harmony is trying to be (and why I'm a supporter) :-)...
>
> In my experience, James is a fair-minded guy and I believe that a
> strong, ethical and hard-working Harmony community is bound to
> impress him over time.
>
> Danese (still speaking on my own and neither on behalf of my former
> nor my current employer)
>
> On May 17, 2005, at 4:11 PM, Ahmed Saad wrote:
>
> > The "clear need" that Magnusson cites is anything but clear to
> > Gosling, who
> > says Sun has received negative response from the enterprise
> > development
> > community regarding the idea of open-source Java."
> >
> > welcome to the matrix, guys ;)
> >
> > On 5/17/05, Tomer Barletz <to...@regard.co.il> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> http://www.devx.com/Java/Article/28125?trk=DXRSS_JAVA
> >>
> >> Looks like Doc java is pretty upset...
> >>
> >
>
>
--
Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/
Re: Gosling on Harmony
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@apache.org>.
On May 18, 2005, at 10:54 AM, Simon Phipps wrote:
>
> I completely agree with this. I regret that James showed how out of
> touch he was with real open source practice (crazy answer about put-
> backs), but my interactions with him (most recently at Cafe Brasil
> where he also met with Dalibor and Geir) suggest that he's
> interested in code alone, not in either Sun of FOSS politics, and
> that positive results will get positive support.
>
Lets make this a goal too :) Lets get James as a Harmony fan :)
geir
--
Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437
geirm@apache.org
Re: Gosling on Harmony
Posted by Danese Cooper <da...@gmail.com>.
LOL, I'm not exactly in a position to influence that anymore,
Stefano :-)
What say you, Simon Phipps?
Danese
On May 18, 2005, at 12:54 PM, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> Danese Cooper wrote:
>
>
>> Yup in a nutshell. I'd like to see James keynote at ApacheCon one
>> of these years soon :-)
>>
>
> What *I*'d like to see is *our* keynote at JavaOne :-)
>
> --
> Stefano, who was part of a javaone keynote already once and would
> not mind doing it again :-)
>
>
Re: Gosling on Harmony
Posted by Dalibor Topic <ro...@kaffe.org>.
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> Danese Cooper wrote:
>
>> Yup in a nutshell. I'd like to see James keynote at ApacheCon one of
>> these years soon :-)
>
>
> What *I*'d like to see is *our* keynote at JavaOne :-)
>
What I'd like to see is a keynote where someone covers M.A.R.R.S. 'Pump
Up The Volume' in true Atari Teenage Riot style with distorted mobile
phones, Jonathan Schwartz does the vocals and Steve Ballmer does the
dancing.
cheers,
dalibor topic
Re: Gosling on Harmony
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Danese Cooper wrote:
> Yup in a nutshell. I'd like to see James keynote at ApacheCon one of
> these years soon :-)
What *I*'d like to see is *our* keynote at JavaOne :-)
--
Stefano, who was part of a javaone keynote already once and would not
mind doing it again :-)
Re: Gosling on Harmony
Posted by Ben Laurie <be...@algroup.co.uk>.
Danese Cooper wrote:
> Yup in a nutshell. I'd like to see James keynote at ApacheCon one of
> these years soon :-)
That would rock. Even better, attend the Hackathon.
--
http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html http://www.thebunker.net/
"There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he
doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff
Re: Gosling on Harmony
Posted by Danese Cooper <da...@gmail.com>.
Hi Simon :-)
On May 18, 2005, at 7:54 AM, Simon Phipps wrote:
> On May 18, 2005, at 05:33, Danese Cooper wrote:
>
>
>> Much as I admire James, I have to say that the responses from
>> enterprise developers of which he presumably speaks were carefully
>> choreographed by the organizers of JavaONE (who are of course Sun
>> employees).
>>
> I'm sorry, I respectfully disagree. The answer that Tim got to his
> question about whether the audience wanted to see Java open source
> at JavaOne was exactly the answer you would expect from that
> audience, actually for reasons James regularly explains. No
> choreography needed. Frankly, the people who organised that debate
> wouldn't have been able to anyway.
I think you and I are agreeing here essentially (although perhaps not
on whether or not an audience willing and able to pay JavaONE
entrance fee wouldn't automatically be more vested in status
quo :-) ). Not saying this was "machiavellian" but it seems to be at
least "malthusian".
>
>
>> Its the old story...you can't ask a question without influencing
>> the answer. When Sun asks they often hear what they want to
>> hear. When Tim O'Reilly asked the same question a month later at
>> OSCON he got the opposite answer (of course).
>>
> So are you accusing ORM of choreographing the results too? Again,
> ask a large audience of pro-FOSS people (most of whom are at best
> ambivalent towards Java) and this is the answer you'd expect.
Not accusing anything...just pointing out the obvious (again, we are
in agreement)
>
> I don't believe either of these examples cast any light on the
> situation. The Java world needs open source JREs because there's a
> large F/OSS community that will find it hard to engage without
> them, and we need each other. The Open Source world needs the Java
> world because without it deployment will be a nightmare for non-
> hackers - at least until some new-order monopolist creates
> uniformity. Neither community is likely to embrace the philosophies
> of the other in the contexts described. It will take bridge-
> building and expressions of trust.
You know I always tell people to read email generously :-)...bridge-
building is exactly what I'm advocating as well (and again, I'm not
accusing anyone of anything...please re-read). I'm hoping as you
that Harmony can be that bridge through balanced and serious
technology focus and clean implementation. It can be a validation of
what's good about Java (as a standard).
>
>
>> I spent 6 years at Sun asking the question every chance I got
>> and probably because of who I am I heard clear support for a
>> *compatible* open J2SE...which is what Harmony is trying to be
>> (and why I'm a supporter) :-)...
>>
>
> Likewise, it continues to be my passion, which is why I too am a
> Harmony supporter, even if I didn't get the chance to put my name
> to the original list. In particular I support Harmony because for
> the first time there is the real chance of all parties to the
> philosophical debate described above to at last meet on an equal
> footing and build bridges that benefit them all.
I can certainly vouch for your support of Harmony. As I said when
leaving Sun...there are several people inside who "get" it and who
will continue to build trust with the F/OSS community. My leaving
didn't mean that anyone should doubt that there are still open source
supporters at Sun. I've been very pleased to see you interviewed
positively about Harmony (and of course blogging). Harmony will need
all of our support; it is a huge job we are undertaking.
>
>
>> In my experience, James is a fair-minded guy and I believe that a
>> strong, ethical and hard-working Harmony community is bound to
>> impress him over time.
>>
>
> I completely agree with this. I regret that James showed how out of
> touch he was with real open source practice (crazy answer about put-
> backs), but my interactions with him (most recently at Cafe Brasil
> where he also met with Dalibor and Geir) suggest that he's
> interested in code alone, not in either Sun of FOSS politics, and
> that positive results will get positive support.
Yup in a nutshell. I'd like to see James keynote at ApacheCon one of
these years soon :-)
Danese
>
> Simon
>
>
>>
>> Danese (still speaking on my own and neither on behalf of my
>> former nor my current employer)
>>
>> On May 17, 2005, at 4:11 PM, Ahmed Saad wrote:
>>
Re: Gosling on Harmony
Posted by Simon Phipps <we...@Sun.COM>.
On May 18, 2005, at 05:33, Danese Cooper wrote:
> Much as I admire James, I have to say that the responses from
> enterprise developers of which he presumably speaks were carefully
> choreographed by the organizers of JavaONE (who are of course Sun
> employees).
I'm sorry, I respectfully disagree. The answer that Tim got to his
question about whether the audience wanted to see Java open source at
JavaOne was exactly the answer you would expect from that audience,
actually for reasons James regularly explains. No choreography needed.
Frankly, the people who organised that debate wouldn't have been able
to anyway.
> Its the old story...you can't ask a question without influencing the
> answer. When Sun asks they often hear what they want to hear. When
> Tim O'Reilly asked the same question a month later at OSCON he got the
> opposite answer (of course).
So are you accusing ORM of choreographing the results too? Again, ask a
large audience of pro-FOSS people (most of whom are at best ambivalent
towards Java) and this is the answer you'd expect.
I don't believe either of these examples cast any light on the
situation. The Java world needs open source JREs because there's a
large F/OSS community that will find it hard to engage without them,
and we need each other. The Open Source world needs the Java world
because without it deployment will be a nightmare for non-hackers - at
least until some new-order monopolist creates uniformity. Neither
community is likely to embrace the philosophies of the other in the
contexts described. It will take bridge-building and expressions of
trust.
> I spent 6 years at Sun asking the question every chance I got and
> probably because of who I am I heard clear support for a *compatible*
> open J2SE...which is what Harmony is trying to be (and why I'm a
> supporter) :-)...
Likewise, it continues to be my passion, which is why I too am a
Harmony supporter, even if I didn't get the chance to put my name to
the original list. In particular I support Harmony because for the
first time there is the real chance of all parties to the philosophical
debate described above to at last meet on an equal footing and build
bridges that benefit them all.
> In my experience, James is a fair-minded guy and I believe that a
> strong, ethical and hard-working Harmony community is bound to impress
> him over time.
I completely agree with this. I regret that James showed how out of
touch he was with real open source practice (crazy answer about
put-backs), but my interactions with him (most recently at Cafe Brasil
where he also met with Dalibor and Geir) suggest that he's interested
in code alone, not in either Sun of FOSS politics, and that positive
results will get positive support.
Simon
>
> Danese (still speaking on my own and neither on behalf of my former
> nor my current employer)
>
> On May 17, 2005, at 4:11 PM, Ahmed Saad wrote:
>
>> The "clear need" that Magnusson cites is anything but clear to
>> Gosling, who
>> says Sun has received negative response from the enterprise
>> development
>> community regarding the idea of open-source Java."
>>
>> welcome to the matrix, guys ;)
>>
>> On 5/17/05, Tomer Barletz <to...@regard.co.il> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> http://www.devx.com/Java/Article/28125?trk=DXRSS_JAVA
>>>
>>> Looks like Doc java is pretty upset...
>>>
>>
>
Re: Gosling on Harmony
Posted by Danese Cooper <da...@gmail.com>.
Much as I admire James, I have to say that the responses from
enterprise developers of which he presumably speaks were carefully
choreographed by the organizers of JavaONE (who are of course Sun
employees). Its the old story...you can't ask a question without
influencing the answer. When Sun asks they often hear what they want
to hear. When Tim O'Reilly asked the same question a month later at
OSCON he got the opposite answer (of course). I spent 6 years at Sun
asking the question every chance I got and probably because of who I
am I heard clear support for a *compatible* open J2SE...which is what
Harmony is trying to be (and why I'm a supporter) :-)...
In my experience, James is a fair-minded guy and I believe that a
strong, ethical and hard-working Harmony community is bound to
impress him over time.
Danese (still speaking on my own and neither on behalf of my former
nor my current employer)
On May 17, 2005, at 4:11 PM, Ahmed Saad wrote:
> The "clear need" that Magnusson cites is anything but clear to
> Gosling, who
> says Sun has received negative response from the enterprise
> development
> community regarding the idea of open-source Java."
>
> welcome to the matrix, guys ;)
>
> On 5/17/05, Tomer Barletz <to...@regard.co.il> wrote:
>
>>
>> http://www.devx.com/Java/Article/28125?trk=DXRSS_JAVA
>>
>> Looks like Doc java is pretty upset...
>>
>
Re: Gosling on Harmony
Posted by Ahmed Saad <my...@gmail.com>.
The "clear need" that Magnusson cites is anything but clear to Gosling, who
says Sun has received negative response from the enterprise development
community regarding the idea of open-source Java."
welcome to the matrix, guys ;)
On 5/17/05, Tomer Barletz <to...@regard.co.il> wrote:
>
> http://www.devx.com/Java/Article/28125?trk=DXRSS_JAVA
>
> Looks like Doc java is pretty upset...
>