[m17n] mailinglist (Re: [i18n] Internationalization project)

[Tetsuya Kitahata <te...@apache.org>]

On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 21:31:10 +0100
(Subject: Re: [i18n] Internationalization project)
robert burrell donkin <rd...@apache.org> wrote:

> IMHO a major stumbling block is that a pmc cannot adequately
> supervise the committing of patches unless they there are sufficient
> fluent speakers of the language. but, how can a pool of trusted
> translators for a project grow if no one can commit their patches?

> hosting a japanese version of jakarta on the main apache site would
> be very cool but without a number of japanese speaking pmc members,
> this would seem to me to put the ASF at legal risk.

> i think that a central mechanism is needed so that a pool of
> translators trusted by the ASF can develop. if a management committee
> for translations is out of the question then maybe a mailing list
> would at least be a start.

Very good points I think.

1. Legal risk
2. where to start as a first step
3. how to manage

1.

Sure, I think if the ASF hosts the translated websites, we (sorry: I
prefer to use *WE* when indicationg the ASF) have to think about the
<QUALITY> of translations. If *non-preferable* words for each languages
are there, it will be very risky (e.g. secret language, erotic).

However, at the same time, this goes for the English documents, too.
(By the way, really the jakarta PMC is reviewing whole jakarta
subprojects' websites even written in english?)
So, we do not have to be nervous so much. "A Patchy" spirits can solve
the problems. I can not see precise statistics, however, Japan is the 
third country of the page views of apache.org websites, IIRC.
(I saw the statistics of Jakarta-Cactus the other day, but I forgot the
URL .. if anyone can give us the precise statistics, please let me know)

This means that there are many *reviewer*s who have good eyes.

2.

As Noel has pointed out, I also agree with setting up mailing list
for it as a first step. In this mailing list, I think we can recruit
the appropriate translators for each languages.
Then, the <project> (TLP) can launch out after that. So, we can assure
the quality of the translations and can offer the best infrastructure
for the translators. This leads the growth of the ASF more and more
and make the ASF more marketer-friendly. (I mean, evangelist-friendly)

We have the precursor: HTTPD-DOCS project.

3.

<2> mentioned above will solve this, and gives the more wider
insights into this.

> > After some time, they'll probably require some tool support and
> > other technical infrastructure, which will hopefully grow in parallel.
> 
> +1

+1

> - robert

I am thinking of the would-be-mailing-list:
 1.  each projects' committers can post to the list
 2.  each projects' committers can ask to the list with english file,
     "Hi, I prepared the resource of the translation. Can
     anyone translate this and perform the native2ascii?"
 3.  the subscriber of the list directly (or non-directly)
     post to the correspond lists or post to the list.
 4.  The main topic will be the issues of i18n, l10n, m17n
 5.  more to come.... (docs translation etc.)

If we can, we cover a wide range of the sourceforge projects etc.
Most of the SourceForge Projects lack the translators, needless to say.
(So, I can not use them, because they are all written in english or
latin1 languages)


Sincerely,

-- Tetsuya (tetsuya@apache.org) --  AIM# tkitahata


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Re: [m17n] mailinglist (Re: [i18n] Internationalization project)

[Tetsuya Kitahata <te...@apache.org>]

On Tue, 29 Jul 2003 22:59:24 +0100
robert burrell donkin <rd...@apache.org> wrote:

> > However, at the same time, this goes for the English documents, too.
> > (By the way, really the jakarta PMC is reviewing whole jakarta
> > subprojects' websites even written in english?)
> this is one of the reasons why subprojects are being encouraged to
> move out and why the size of the jakarta pmc has been increased.
> between the pmc members there's hopefully enough supervision of
> commit emails. the other safe guard is that only a few people are
> trusted with rights to daedelus and most of these are in the jakarta
> pmc.

I see. Thank you for the explanation. (This was one of the puzzling
things for me, to tell the truth)

> the real problem is that these methods of supervision (watching
> commit emails and guarding updates of the live site) only work when
> the supervisor can read what's said.

Make sense.

> > This means that there are many *reviewer*s who have good eyes.
> as well as many good eyes, an efficient system for feedback is also
> need so that problems can quickly be fixed.

Yep. So, *improvement of user-friendliness* is important for every
projects/subprojects.

Also (from my observation), *improvement of committer-friendliness*
might be also important. For example, how to make *shortcut* to
deal with many e-mails efficiently, etc etc.

> > 2.
> > As Noel has pointed out, I also agree with setting up mailing list
> > for it as a first step.
> +1

I am still wondering which might be better,
i18n@commons or m17n@commons or l10n@commons :-)
Also, this creation can be announced at announce@apache.

> > I am thinking of the would-be-mailing-list:
> >  1.  each projects' committers can post to the list
> >  2.  each projects' committers can ask to the list with english file,
> >      "Hi, I prepared the resource of the translation. Can
> >      anyone translate this and perform the native2ascii?"
> this would also be very, very useful for requests to pmcs which are
> not in english.

Yep, I found that this could be achieved by the remote
moderation of the mailing list (run by ezmlm).

> >  3.  the subscriber of the list directly (or non-directly)
> >      post to the correspond lists or post to the list.
> >  4.  The main topic will be the issues of i18n, l10n, m17n
> >  5.  more to come.... (docs translation etc.)
> sounds good. how can we make this happen?

In the next month, I think. I will ask many people's approvals
for this plan via upcoming "The Apache Newsletter". :-)
(And ApacheWiki[?] :-)

-- Tetsuya (tetsuya@apache.org)

P.S. Please write articles of your projects (and Readers' Voice :-) at
http://nagoya.apache.org/wiki/apachewiki.cgi?ApacheNewsletterDrafts/Issue1
for the upcoming Apache Newsletter! >> all



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Re: [m17n] mailinglist (Re: [i18n] Internationalization project)

[robert burrell donkin <rd...@apache.org>]

On Friday, July 18, 2003, at 11:40 AM, Tetsuya Kitahata wrote:

<snip>

> Very good points I think.
>
> 1. Legal risk
> 2. where to start as a first step

<snip>

> 1.
>
> Sure, I think if the ASF hosts the translated websites, we (sorry: I
> prefer to use *WE* when indicationg the ASF) have to think about the
> <QUALITY> of translations. If *non-preferable* words for each languages
> are there, it will be very risky (e.g. secret language, erotic).
>
> However, at the same time, this goes for the English documents, too.
> (By the way, really the jakarta PMC is reviewing whole jakarta
> subprojects' websites even written in english?)

this is one of the reasons why subprojects are being encouraged to move 
out and why the size of the jakarta pmc has been increased. between the 
pmc members there's hopefully enough supervision of commit emails. the 
other safe guard is that only a few people are trusted with rights to 
daedelus and most of these are in the jakarta pmc.

the real problem is that these methods of supervision (watching commit 
emails and guarding updates of the live site) only work when the 
supervisor can read what's said.

> So, we do not have to be nervous so much. "A Patchy" spirits can solve
> the problems. I can not see precise statistics, however, Japan is the
> third country of the page views of apache.org websites, IIRC.
> (I saw the statistics of Jakarta-Cactus the other day, but I forgot the
> URL .. if anyone can give us the precise statistics, please let me know)
>
> This means that there are many *reviewer*s who have good eyes.

as well as many good eyes, an efficient system for feedback is also need 
so that problems can quickly be fixed.

> 2.
>
> As Noel has pointed out, I also agree with setting up mailing list
> for it as a first step.

+1

<snip>

> I am thinking of the would-be-mailing-list:
>  1.  each projects' committers can post to the list
>  2.  each projects' committers can ask to the list with english file,
>      "Hi, I prepared the resource of the translation. Can
>      anyone translate this and perform the native2ascii?"

this would also be very, very useful for requests to pmcs which are not in 
english.

>  3.  the subscriber of the list directly (or non-directly)
>      post to the correspond lists or post to the list.
>  4.  The main topic will be the issues of i18n, l10n, m17n
>  5.  more to come.... (docs translation etc.)

sounds good. how can we make this happen?

- robert


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