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Posted to general@jakarta.apache.org by Henri Yandell <ba...@generationjava.com> on 2004/12/29 17:10:57 UTC
3-column jakarta.apache.org?
I'm a fan of the www.apache.org look and how it gives us a lot more
usability in terms of available column space. I'd like to change Jakarta
to the 3-columns (though not the l&f or anything).
Switching to 3-columns means less space in the center for content, however
I also want to simplify the content so I think it will look fine.
Any views?
Hen
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Re: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?
Posted by Henri Yandell <ba...@generationjava.com>.
On Mon, 3 Jan 2005, Tetsuya Kitahata wrote:
> Henri Yandell wrote:
>>> e.g.
>>> http://www.apachenews.org/archives/cat_apache_jakarta_index.html
>>> http://www.apachenews.org/archives/2004_12_index.html
>> Rather,
>> http://www.apachenews.org/archives/cat_apache_jakarta_2004_12_index.html
>
> O.K. Makes sense.
>
> See here:
> http://www.apachenews.org/archives/cat_apache_jakarta_2004_12_index.html
Yup, looks good.
Where should the 2004/12 link go? Same for some of the others. All the
[INDEX]s for one. Thinking about it, you've probably just not got around
to them yet :)
Now the only question is what we would link to. Best would be if there was
a cat_apache_jakarta_this_month_index.html or something. ie) On the
Jakarta site I just want to link to 'latest news for Jakarta', and not
worry about which month I'm pointing to. Sound doable?
Is that MoveableType btw, or something else?
Hen
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Re: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?
Posted by Tetsuya Kitahata <te...@apache.org>.
Henri Yandell wrote:
> > e.g.
> > http://www.apachenews.org/archives/cat_apache_jakarta_index.html
> > http://www.apachenews.org/archives/2004_12_index.html
> Rather,
> http://www.apachenews.org/archives/cat_apache_jakarta_2004_12_index.html
O.K. Makes sense.
See here:
http://www.apachenews.org/archives/cat_apache_jakarta_2004_12_index.html
Sincerely,
-- Tetsuya Kitahata <te...@apache.org>
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Re: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?
Posted by Henri Yandell <ba...@generationjava.com>.
On Sun, 2 Jan 2005, Tetsuya Kitahata wrote:
> On Sat, 1 Jan 2005 07:18:14 -0500 (EST)
> Henri Yandell wrote:
>>> it would be far more effective to ensure that the announcements are made to
>>> the right lists, that the resources which are important now (java.net,
>>> apachenews.org, serverside.com) receive the news and that users know which
>>> announcement lists they should subscribe to.
>> Unconvinced. None of those resources are good at supplying historical
>> news; apachenews has the common blog problem of a calendar-view being a
>> poor historical index, java.net seems to have no history and
>> theserverside.com uses a linked-list style system to get old news. The
>> last two also have a high noise to signal level for Jakarta info.
>
> As far as apachenews.org is concerned, I can try to create new
> templates for it.
My target would be a page for a category which showed date breakdown into
months which then listed the blog entries.
Jakarta should be linking to:
apachenews.org/archives/cat_apache_jakarta.html
but that should have a calendar breakdown instead of a list of all news
ever. Plus we'd have to look at a way to upload old news I think.
> e.g.
> http://www.apachenews.org/archives/cat_apache_jakarta_index.html
> http://www.apachenews.org/archives/2004_12_index.html
Rather,
http://www.apachenews.org/archives/cat_apache_jakarta_2004_12_index.html
> You folks can post "release news" (Alpha/Beta/R.C./FINAL versions) and
> anything news-worthy upon the apache software foundation related
> (including jakarta, apache-xml,apache-ws, apache-web-server etc.)
> projects/products to announce@apachenews.org.
Yep, the bit I do like is that it's hooked to email :)
> ----
>
> By the way:
> Neither Apache Cocoon nor Apache Forrest was not originated from
> Jakarta Project AFAIK. (However, they're important because POI,
> Tapestry and HiveMind are currently using Apache Forrest for building
> their web sites if I remember correctly.)
Doh :) Will correct this.
> Personally, I think it that the history of Jakarta Project (e.g.
There should be a front page link of 'Jakarta History' probably. Explain
what has changed etc. I'll add that to the site-wiki plan.
> "Apache James moved from Jakarta into TopLevelProject") should appear
> somewhere in jakarta.a.o. with the definition of Jakarta Related
> (Personally, I love the concept of "Jakarta FAMILY" -- [1] --
> would this concept impose anything mislead upon the users/devs?).
I'm pushing a bit more for Java@Apache rather than just Jakarta Family.
Even though Geronimo didn't come from Jakarta, it had a lot of community
share. A year before it would have been in Jakarta.
Hen
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Re: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?
Posted by Tetsuya Kitahata <te...@apache.org>.
On Sat, 1 Jan 2005 07:18:14 -0500 (EST)
Henri Yandell wrote:
> > it would be far more effective to ensure that the announcements are made to
> > the right lists, that the resources which are important now (java.net,
> > apachenews.org, serverside.com) receive the news and that users know which
> > announcement lists they should subscribe to.
> Unconvinced. None of those resources are good at supplying historical
> news; apachenews has the common blog problem of a calendar-view being a
> poor historical index, java.net seems to have no history and
> theserverside.com uses a linked-list style system to get old news. The
> last two also have a high noise to signal level for Jakarta info.
As far as apachenews.org is concerned, I can try to create new
templates for it.
e.g.
http://www.apachenews.org/archives/cat_apache_jakarta_index.html
http://www.apachenews.org/archives/2004_12_index.html
You folks can post "release news" (Alpha/Beta/R.C./FINAL versions) and
anything news-worthy upon the apache software foundation related
(including jakarta, apache-xml,apache-ws, apache-web-server etc.)
projects/products to announce@apachenews.org.
----
By the way:
Neither Apache Cocoon nor Apache Forrest was not originated from
Jakarta Project AFAIK. (However, they're important because POI,
Tapestry and HiveMind are currently using Apache Forrest for building
their web sites if I remember correctly.)
Personally, I think it that the history of Jakarta Project (e.g.
"Apache James moved from Jakarta into TopLevelProject") should appear
somewhere in jakarta.a.o. with the definition of Jakarta Related
(Personally, I love the concept of "Jakarta FAMILY" -- [1] --
would this concept impose anything mislead upon the users/devs?).
Sincerely,
-- Tetsuya Kitahata <te...@apache.org>
[1] -
Jakarta FAMILY
= Jakarta PROJECT + Apache Ant + Apache Struts + Apache Geronimo +
Apache Gump + Apache Maven + #Apache Avalon# + Apache James +
Apache Excalibur + Apache Log4J (in LoggingServices) +
Apache OJB/Torque (in DB) + Apache Jetspeed/Pluto (in Portals)
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Re: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?
Posted by Henri Yandell <ba...@generationjava.com>.
On Sat, 1 Jan 2005, robert burrell donkin wrote:
> On 1 Jan 2005, at 11:45, Henri Yandell wrote:
>> On Sat, 1 Jan 2005, robert burrell donkin wrote:
>>> On 29 Dec 2004, at 16:10, Henri Yandell wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'm a fan of the www.apache.org look and how it gives us a lot more
>>>> usability in terms of available column space. I'd like to change Jakarta
>>>> to the 3-columns (though not the l&f or anything).
>>>> Switching to 3-columns means less space in the center for content,
>>>> however I also want to simplify the content so I think it will look fine.
>>>> Any views?
>>>
>>> if we're moving to this format, then i'd suggest getting rid of the news
>>> section. http://www.apachenews.org/ does this much better than us. we're
>>> not even getting syndicating on stuff like java.net anymore so i'm now
>>> really sure it's worth the effort.
>>
>> Even our own release news?
>
> ditch the whole lot :)
>
> not only is it no longer pleasing to the eye (in those three columns) but it
> also ineffective...
>
>> I see us just focusing on our own news; xxx moves to TLP, yyy moves out of
>> Commons, 10.4 of Foo released etc.
>
> jakarta isn't the important resource it used to be for news. our place has
> been taken. people no longer come to read our news.
>
> it would be far more effective to ensure that the announcements are made to
> the right lists, that the resources which are important now (java.net,
> apachenews.org, serverside.com) receive the news and that users know which
> announcement lists they should subscribe to.
Unconvinced. None of those resources are good at supplying historical
news; apachenews has the common blog problem of a calendar-view being a
poor historical index, java.net seems to have no history and
theserverside.com uses a linked-list style system to get old news. The
last two also have a high noise to signal level for Jakarta info.
The only good source for Apache news is the mail-archive for the
announcement lists, but there's a bizarre plethora of those, which is
another item on my to-investiage list. Do we need jakarta-announcements,
why do other TLPs not all have it, why do I get announcements over
community@ etc.
I definitely think we should dump the elsewhere news, and the news.html
page needs to dump the top two paragraphs as unnecessary.
Hen
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Re: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?
Posted by robert burrell donkin <ro...@blueyonder.co.uk>.
On 1 Jan 2005, at 11:45, Henri Yandell wrote:
> On Sat, 1 Jan 2005, robert burrell donkin wrote:
>> On 29 Dec 2004, at 16:10, Henri Yandell wrote:
>>
>>> I'm a fan of the www.apache.org look and how it gives us a lot more
>>> usability in terms of available column space. I'd like to change
>>> Jakarta to the 3-columns (though not the l&f or anything).
>>> Switching to 3-columns means less space in the center for content,
>>> however I also want to simplify the content so I think it will look
>>> fine.
>>> Any views?
>>
>> if we're moving to this format, then i'd suggest getting rid of the
>> news section. http://www.apachenews.org/ does this much better than
>> us. we're not even getting syndicating on stuff like java.net anymore
>> so i'm now really sure it's worth the effort.
>
> Even our own release news?
ditch the whole lot :)
not only is it no longer pleasing to the eye (in those three columns)
but it also ineffective...
> I see us just focusing on our own news; xxx moves to TLP, yyy moves
> out of Commons, 10.4 of Foo released etc.
jakarta isn't the important resource it used to be for news. our place
has been taken. people no longer come to read our news.
it would be far more effective to ensure that the announcements are
made to the right lists, that the resources which are important now
(java.net, apachenews.org, serverside.com) receive the news and that
users know which announcement lists they should subscribe to.
- robert
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Re: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?
Posted by Henri Yandell <ba...@generationjava.com>.
On Sat, 1 Jan 2005, robert burrell donkin wrote:
> On 29 Dec 2004, at 16:10, Henri Yandell wrote:
>
>>
>> I'm a fan of the www.apache.org look and how it gives us a lot more
>> usability in terms of available column space. I'd like to change Jakarta to
>> the 3-columns (though not the l&f or anything).
>>
>> Switching to 3-columns means less space in the center for content, however
>> I also want to simplify the content so I think it will look fine.
>>
>> Any views?
>
> if we're moving to this format, then i'd suggest getting rid of the news
> section. http://www.apachenews.org/ does this much better than us. we're not
> even getting syndicating on stuff like java.net anymore so i'm now really
> sure it's worth the effort.
Even our own release news?
I see us just focusing on our own news; xxx moves to TLP, yyy moves out of
Commons, 10.4 of Foo released etc.
Hen
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Re: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?
Posted by robert burrell donkin <ro...@blueyonder.co.uk>.
On 29 Dec 2004, at 16:10, Henri Yandell wrote:
>
> I'm a fan of the www.apache.org look and how it gives us a lot more
> usability in terms of available column space. I'd like to change
> Jakarta to the 3-columns (though not the l&f or anything).
>
> Switching to 3-columns means less space in the center for content,
> however I also want to simplify the content so I think it will look
> fine.
>
> Any views?
if we're moving to this format, then i'd suggest getting rid of the
news section. http://www.apachenews.org/ does this much better than us.
we're not even getting syndicating on stuff like java.net anymore so
i'm now really sure it's worth the effort.
- robert
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Re: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?
Posted by Henri Yandell <ba...@generationjava.com>.
On Sat, 1 Jan 2005, sebb wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 14:01:27 -0500 (EST), Henri Yandell
> <ba...@generationjava.com> wrote:
>>
>> The aim would also be to switch entirely over to the XSL build version
>> which seems to work fine and dump Anakia creation.
>
> Have you tried the XSL version of the binary and source pages?
> These are a bit different from other pages...
The only difference that leapt out was that the tables had bad
backgrounds, so I fixed that one. Thanks for point them out, I'll relook
at them.
Hen
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Re: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?
Posted by sebb <se...@gmail.com>.
On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 14:01:27 -0500 (EST), Henri Yandell
<ba...@generationjava.com> wrote:
>
> Here's my mockup proposal:
>
> http://www.apache.org/~bayard/mock-jakarta-frontpage.html
>
> Changes:
> 3 column
> Strikethrough of links/pages I'd like to kill.
> Less news.
> Removal of Related section (aim is to make this a new page).
> Rewrite of the welcome message to hopefully say the same main thing,
> but use a lot less space.
>
> The aim would also be to switch entirely over to the XSL build version
> which seems to work fine and dump Anakia creation.
Have you tried the XSL version of the binary and source pages?
These are a bit different from other pages...
>
> Hen
>
> On Wed, 29 Dec 2004, Henri Yandell wrote:
>
> >
> > I'm a fan of the www.apache.org look and how it gives us a lot more usability
> > in terms of available column space. I'd like to change Jakarta to the
> > 3-columns (though not the l&f or anything).
> >
> > Switching to 3-columns means less space in the center for content, however I
> > also want to simplify the content so I think it will look fine.
> >
> > Any views?
> >
> > Hen
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
> >
> >
>
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>
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Re: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?
Posted by robert burrell donkin <ro...@blueyonder.co.uk>.
On 1 Jan 2005, at 18:55, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> robert burrell donkin asked:
>
>> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>
>>>>> Acknowledgements (Definitely ASF now, no-one supports 'jakarta' as
>>>>> such afaik)
>>> Turn over all of this to the PRC, and let them handle it on an
>>> ASF-wide
>>> basis.
>> cool. what's the right to set about doing this?
>
> Send e-mail to prc@apache.org.
thanks. i'll take a look at fixing this one.
- robert
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RE: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
robert burrell donkin asked:
> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>>>> Acknowledgements (Definitely ASF now, no-one supports 'jakarta' as
>>>> such afaik)
>> Turn over all of this to the PRC, and let them handle it on an ASF-wide
>> basis.
> cool. what's the right to set about doing this?
Send e-mail to prc@apache.org.
--- Noel
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Re: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?
Posted by robert burrell donkin <ro...@blueyonder.co.uk>.
On 1 Jan 2005, at 15:36, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>>>> Acknowledgements (Definitely ASF now, no-one supports 'jakarta' as
>>>> such
>>>> afaik)
>
> Turn over all of this to the PRC, and let them handle it on an ASF-wide
> basis.
cool. what's the right to set about doing this?
- robert
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RE: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
>>> Acknowledgements (Definitely ASF now, no-one supports 'jakarta' as such
>>> afaik)
Turn over all of this to the PRC, and let them handle it on an ASF-wide
basis.
--- Noel
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Re: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?
Posted by robert burrell donkin <ro...@blueyonder.co.uk>.
On 1 Jan 2005, at 12:31, Henri Yandell wrote:
> On Sat, 1 Jan 2005, robert burrell donkin wrote:
>> On 1 Jan 2005, at 11:54, Henri Yandell wrote:
>>> On Sat, 1 Jan 2005, robert burrell donkin wrote:
>>>> On 29 Dec 2004, at 20:44, Henri Yandell wrote:
>>>> <snip>
>>>>> 4) Various parts of Resources struck out. I think this was all
>>>>> covered in previous emails. I think www.apache.org covers these
>>>>> issues now and we don't have to.
>>>> FWIW some of the content (and the stuff you moved) is covered.
>>>> unfortunately, there's still a lot that's not and already quite a
>>>> bit of information has been lost when the old wiki was removed.
>>> http://wiki.apache.org/old/
>>> Which bits in particular?
>>
>> release manager stuff. i need to pull out and reorganize the
>> information then submit some patches to infrastructure.
>
> Sounds good. I'm happy for it to be in Jakarta for the time being too,
> it just needs organizing.
>
> The guides.html had a small bit about release management that you
> might want to check against.
the release stuff needs to go into the foundation stuff somewhere
infrastructure related, not jakarta. (i talked to them a while ago
about this.)
- robert
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Re: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?
Posted by Henri Yandell <ba...@generationjava.com>.
On Sat, 1 Jan 2005, robert burrell donkin wrote:
>
> On 1 Jan 2005, at 11:54, Henri Yandell wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, 1 Jan 2005, robert burrell donkin wrote:
>>
>>> On 29 Dec 2004, at 20:44, Henri Yandell wrote:
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>>> 4) Various parts of Resources struck out. I think this was all covered in
>>>> previous emails. I think www.apache.org covers these issues now and we
>>>> don't have to.
>>>
>>> FWIW some of the content (and the stuff you moved) is covered.
>>> unfortunately, there's still a lot that's not and already quite a bit of
>>> information has been lost when the old wiki was removed.
>>
>> http://wiki.apache.org/old/
>>
>> Which bits in particular?
>
> release manager stuff. i need to pull out and reorganize the information then
> submit some patches to infrastructure.
Sounds good. I'm happy for it to be in Jakarta for the time being too, it
just needs organizing.
The guides.html had a small bit about release management that you might
want to check against.
>> Apache on the JSPA (Geir will be making a www.apache.org JCP page)
>
> this is actually a quite important bit of history. if possible, i'd like to
> suggest that we move this up to the foundation level as a placeholder and put
> in a redirect. probably should be discussed with geir.
Yup, already talked with him about it. I'll start a list of redirects to
add/come up with. There's actually a second JCP page hidden in Jakarta
that I'm expecting him to take too.
If he's not ready at the time I'm ready on the 3-tier, I'll just keep the
JSPA bit and keep hassling him.
>> Acknowledgements (Definitely ASF now, no-one supports 'jakarta' as such
>> afaik)
>
> i'd suggest checking about this one since some of these acknowledgments may
> well have been promised. if these are all covered at the foundation level
> then redirection would be the best idea.
Above.Net and Hyperreal no longer actually provide support (I think, will
check). Sun's support is a) JCP thing, b) Tomcat and other RI specific.
IBM+CollabNet just seem to employ various ASF people and I've no clue
who Clear Ink are.
>> The only page that's been killed so far is guides.html
>> (http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/jakarta-site2/xdocs/site/
>> guides.xml?hideattic=0&rev=1.15&view=auto)
>
> bit funny, that document. i have a vague recollection that it was an
> unfinished project from the heroic era...
>
>> I can dump its info into the Wiki so we can splice out the non-repeating
>> bits.
>
> that sounds like a very good plan (it's probably start a few different
> worthwhile pages there)
Easy enough. Sometime this weekend.
Hen
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Re: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?
Posted by robert burrell donkin <ro...@blueyonder.co.uk>.
On 1 Jan 2005, at 11:54, Henri Yandell wrote:
>
>
> On Sat, 1 Jan 2005, robert burrell donkin wrote:
>
>> On 29 Dec 2004, at 20:44, Henri Yandell wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>> 4) Various parts of Resources struck out. I think this was all
>>> covered in previous emails. I think www.apache.org covers these
>>> issues now and we don't have to.
>>
>> FWIW some of the content (and the stuff you moved) is covered.
>> unfortunately, there's still a lot that's not and already quite a bit
>> of information has been lost when the old wiki was removed.
>
> http://wiki.apache.org/old/
>
> Which bits in particular?
release manager stuff. i need to pull out and reorganize the
information then submit some patches to infrastructure.
> On the mock-up I'm suggesting we kill:
>
> Our Mission (Repeat of the front page)
> Vendor Support (List of 13 companies - surprised no one is against this
> removal)
i don't think anyone's released :)
it's been a PITA for a while and may be better on the wiki. maybe it'd
be better to get a board/members view on this.
> Reference Library (This page is just plain wrong, we require no 6
> book reading list. Could move bits to Project Guidelines/CVS page)
this needs rewriting for foundation new committer material
> Website Maintenance (Wiki? Just the CVS version?)
this will need rewriting anyway (if we're moving from anakia)
> Apache on the JSPA (Geir will be making a www.apache.org JCP page)
this is actually a quite important bit of history. if possible, i'd
like to suggest that we move this up to the foundation level as a
placeholder and put in a redirect. probably should be discussed with
geir.
> Acknowledgements (Definitely ASF now, no-one supports 'jakarta' as such
> afaik)
i'd suggest checking about this one since some of these acknowledgments
may well have been promised. if these are all covered at the foundation
level then redirection would be the best idea.
> Translation links (See other thread)
>
> The Legal bit ended up just going to the bottom of the page.
>
> The only page that's been killed so far is guides.html
> (http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/jakarta-site2/xdocs/site/
> guides.xml?hideattic=0&rev=1.15&view=auto)
bit funny, that document. i have a vague recollection that it was an
unfinished project from the heroic era...
> I can dump its info into the Wiki so we can splice out the
> non-repeating bits.
that sounds like a very good plan (it's probably start a few different
worthwhile pages there)
- robert
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RE: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?
Posted by Tom Evans <te...@tachometry.com>.
> <snip>
>
>Vendor Support (List of 13 companies - surprised no one is against this
> removal)
Hen -
There's a time for everything, I suppose. Speaking as one of the companies
listed, we are quite pleased to be identified in a small way as part of the
Jakarta community. However, I also understand the desire to clean up the
site and simplify the message. The vendors page is a benefit to us and we
would love to see it survive the site redesign, but we are happy to use,
support, and recommend Jakarta whether our name shows up or not. FWIW I
appreciate your leadership on this effort.
Tom
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Re: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?
Posted by Henri Yandell <ba...@generationjava.com>.
On Sat, 1 Jan 2005, robert burrell donkin wrote:
> On 29 Dec 2004, at 20:44, Henri Yandell wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> 4) Various parts of Resources struck out. I think this was all covered in
>> previous emails. I think www.apache.org covers these issues now and we
>> don't have to.
>
> FWIW some of the content (and the stuff you moved) is covered. unfortunately,
> there's still a lot that's not and already quite a bit of information has
> been lost when the old wiki was removed.
http://wiki.apache.org/old/
Which bits in particular?
On the mock-up I'm suggesting we kill:
Our Mission (Repeat of the front page)
Vendor Support (List of 13 companies - surprised no one is against this
removal)
Reference Library (This page is just plain wrong, we require no 6
book reading list. Could move bits to Project Guidelines/CVS page)
Website Maintenance (Wiki? Just the CVS version?)
Apache on the JSPA (Geir will be making a www.apache.org JCP page)
Acknowledgements (Definitely ASF now, no-one supports 'jakarta' as such
afaik)
Translation links (See other thread)
The Legal bit ended up just going to the bottom of the page.
The only page that's been killed so far is guides.html
(http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/jakarta-site2/xdocs/site/guides.xml?hideattic=0&rev=1.15&view=auto)
I can dump its info into the Wiki so we can splice out the non-repeating
bits.
> IMHO if (in the future) these things should be documented at the foundation
> level, it'll be easier in the long run to bite the bullet: decide what
> content is suitable for the new jakarta site and then make an effort to move
> everything else to more appropriate places before it's removed.
Yup, I'm an aggressive deleter and need checks to make sure I don't go too
far. I don't think I have yet (editor.html and ide*.html still exist for
example :) ).
Hen
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RE: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
robert burrell donkin wrote:
>>> unfortunately, there's still a lot that's not and already quite a bit
>>> of information has been lost when the old wiki was removed.
>> As noted by Henri, the old Wiki was moved, not removed.
> effectively is still lost as far as links are concerned
Well, if people would stop using machine names in URLs, we could at least
try to map them. For the Wiki it would have been pretty easy.
--- Noel
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Re: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?
Posted by robert burrell donkin <ro...@blueyonder.co.uk>.
On 1 Jan 2005, at 15:36, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>> unfortunately, there's still a lot that's not and already quite a bit
>> of information has been lost when the old wiki was removed.
>
> As noted by Henri, the old Wiki was moved, not removed.
good.
effectively is still lost as far as links are concerned and the
material needs rewriting for the foundation site but it's easier if the
information still exists.
- robert
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RE: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> unfortunately, there's still a lot that's not and already quite a bit
> of information has been lost when the old wiki was removed.
As noted by Henri, the old Wiki was moved, not removed.
--- Noel
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Re: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?
Posted by robert burrell donkin <ro...@blueyonder.co.uk>.
On 29 Dec 2004, at 20:44, Henri Yandell wrote:
<snip>
> 4) Various parts of Resources struck out. I think this was all covered
> in previous emails. I think www.apache.org covers these issues now and
> we don't have to.
FWIW some of the content (and the stuff you moved) is covered.
unfortunately, there's still a lot that's not and already quite a bit
of information has been lost when the old wiki was removed.
IMHO if (in the future) these things should be documented at the
foundation level, it'll be easier in the long run to bite the bullet:
decide what content is suitable for the new jakarta site and then make
an effort to move everything else to more appropriate places before
it's removed.
- robert
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Re: Translations of Jakarta
Posted by Shinobu Kawai Yoshida <sh...@gmail.com>.
Hi Henri,
> My current thoughts are that the best way for translation sites to
> continue are much along the lines that they currently do. Largely
> independent communities who are helping to spread the Apache/Jakarta
> brand.
>
> We would ensure that there is a liaison to the Apache/Jakarta community
> (for example I would put your name/email down somewhere as the liaison to
> the JaJakarta group); we would get the ASF legal people to write something
> simple giving permission to 'use the feather' and the name 'jakarta'
> provided a timely response to requests; and we'd link to your site from
> ours. I need to pitch this idea to the pmc/board etc, but it seems
> reasonable.
Could I ask you to do that? If you need any information from us,
please feel free to let us know. TIA :)
Best regards,
-- Shinobu
--
Shinobu "Kawai" Yoshida <sh...@gmail.com>
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Re: Translations of Jakarta
Posted by Shinobu Kawai <sh...@gmail.com>.
Hi Henri,
Thanks for a whole bunch of stuff to discuss! I guess the logo issue
should be put top priority.
# Actually, I didn't realize we had an English top page until you
pointed it out. :)
We'll get back to you in a while...
Until then,
On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 21:52:10 -0500 (EST), Henri Yandell
<ba...@generationjava.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Mon, 10 Jan 2005, Shinobu Kawai wrote:
>
> > Hi Henri,
> >
> >> Trademarks/branding also worry me a bit. Do we have to do anything to give
> >> you permission to use the Feather etc (Apache have been increasingly
> >> protecting it recently). If we stick with the current l&f, it looks like
> >> an Apache site, but with no actual affiliation to Apache, so I suspect
> >> that someday I'll get a browbeating from the board.
> >
> > When you said "use the Feather", did you mean the use of the Jakarta
> > logo (http://jakarta.apache.org/images/jakarta-logo.gif) or the actual
> > feather in the image of the Ja-Jakarta logo
> > (http://www.jajakarta.org/images/jajakarta.png)? Maybe both?
>
> Yep, both pretty much. As far as I understand, trademarks and logos etc
> need to be actively defended to keep them; so while there's no obvious
> issue with you guys using it, somebody who is using it for evil purposes
> can point to your use and claim that Apache is not defending its brand
> properly. I assume the solution is for us to make sure there's permission
> for you to use the logo etc.
>
> > One more question. Are there any restrictions to using jakarta-site2
> > (or a modification of it) to build sites for non-ASF projects? If
> > not, I don't see any problems with having the same l&f. Or am I
> > missing a point?
>
> No problem with using it I think, the only issues that need to be figured
> out properly are the branding/logos, I think. I've a fair number of
> suggestions for, at least, the English translation of your homepage to do
> with trying to avoid confusion on the navigation, I'll add some to the end
> of this email.
>
> My current thoughts are that the best way for translation sites to
> continue are much along the lines that they currently do. Largely
> independent communities who are helping to spread the Apache/Jakarta
> brand.
>
> We would ensure that there is a liaison to the Apache/Jakarta community
> (for example I would put your name/email down somewhere as the liaison to
> the JaJakarta group); we would get the ASF legal people to write something
> simple giving permission to 'use the feather' and the name 'jakarta'
> provided a timely response to requests; and we'd link to your site from
> ours. I need to pitch this idea to the pmc/board etc, but it seems
> reasonable.
>
> --
>
> Suggestions for JaJakarta:
>
> This is from the English page as I don't speak any Japanese, but a lot of
> it may carry over. First off, some suggestions of improvements to the
> text:
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> Welcome to the Ja-Jakarta Project
>
> The Ja-Jakarta project is a Japanese user group who use various
> Java products provided by the Apache Software Foundation, in particular
> its Jakarta project.
>
> Our purpose is to:
>
> * Translate Jakarta documentation into Japanese
> * Internationalize Apache products and provide feedback them to the
> Jakarta project
> * Promote Jakarta products in Japan
>
> About Our Web Site
>
> The content of our web site is written in Japanese. If you would
> like to see it, you should add "ja (japanese)" to your web browser's
> language setting (Firefox users need to install a "Language Menu"
> extension.).
>
> The Japanese top page is here.
> ---------------------------------------------------------
>
> Hoepfully that's all okay. Just a bit of improvement with regards to the
> bastard child of French and German that we all know as English.
>
> The navbar is where I'm concerned there is going to be confusion between
> Jakarta and JaJakarta:
>
> s/Check it out!!/News/
> s/News/JaJakarta News/
> s/Subprojects/Translations/
>
> The names of the Apache projects should be more detailed nowadays. Apache
> Ant, Jakarta Cactus, Apache Struts, Jakarta Velocity etc.
>
> Although it adds to the length, it would be nice to have changes (at least
> for the English version) for:
>
> s/Get Involved/Get Involved in JaJakarta/
> s/Project Management/JaJakarta Management/
>
> The Jakarta News page (honke.html) hasn't had an update since last May.
>
> The favicon.ico would probably be better if it was the pink flower and not
> pikachu (or something that looks similar at this screen size :) ).
>
> Lastly, the book advert is a little out of character for an Apache
> project. It does list JaJakarta as one of the authors, which is pretty
> cool, but aren't there other Japanese books on Apache Java projects that
> you could list too? Even if you list JaJakarta first. Basically looking to
> make sure you can't be accused of using the Apache brand to sell the book.
>
> --------------
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Hen
Best regards,
-- Shinobu
--
Shinobu "Kawai" Yoshida <sh...@gmail.com>
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Re: Translations of Jakarta
Posted by Henri Yandell <ba...@generationjava.com>.
On Mon, 10 Jan 2005, Shinobu Kawai wrote:
> Hi Henri,
>
>> Trademarks/branding also worry me a bit. Do we have to do anything to give
>> you permission to use the Feather etc (Apache have been increasingly
>> protecting it recently). If we stick with the current l&f, it looks like
>> an Apache site, but with no actual affiliation to Apache, so I suspect
>> that someday I'll get a browbeating from the board.
>
> When you said "use the Feather", did you mean the use of the Jakarta
> logo (http://jakarta.apache.org/images/jakarta-logo.gif) or the actual
> feather in the image of the Ja-Jakarta logo
> (http://www.jajakarta.org/images/jajakarta.png)? Maybe both?
Yep, both pretty much. As far as I understand, trademarks and logos etc
need to be actively defended to keep them; so while there's no obvious
issue with you guys using it, somebody who is using it for evil purposes
can point to your use and claim that Apache is not defending its brand
properly. I assume the solution is for us to make sure there's permission
for you to use the logo etc.
> One more question. Are there any restrictions to using jakarta-site2
> (or a modification of it) to build sites for non-ASF projects? If
> not, I don't see any problems with having the same l&f. Or am I
> missing a point?
No problem with using it I think, the only issues that need to be figured
out properly are the branding/logos, I think. I've a fair number of
suggestions for, at least, the English translation of your homepage to do
with trying to avoid confusion on the navigation, I'll add some to the end
of this email.
My current thoughts are that the best way for translation sites to
continue are much along the lines that they currently do. Largely
independent communities who are helping to spread the Apache/Jakarta
brand.
We would ensure that there is a liaison to the Apache/Jakarta community
(for example I would put your name/email down somewhere as the liaison to
the JaJakarta group); we would get the ASF legal people to write something
simple giving permission to 'use the feather' and the name 'jakarta'
provided a timely response to requests; and we'd link to your site from
ours. I need to pitch this idea to the pmc/board etc, but it seems
reasonable.
--
Suggestions for JaJakarta:
This is from the English page as I don't speak any Japanese, but a lot of
it may carry over. First off, some suggestions of improvements to the
text:
-----------------------------------------------------------
Welcome to the Ja-Jakarta Project
The Ja-Jakarta project is a Japanese user group who use various
Java products provided by the Apache Software Foundation, in particular
its Jakarta project.
Our purpose is to:
* Translate Jakarta documentation into Japanese
* Internationalize Apache products and provide feedback them to the
Jakarta project
* Promote Jakarta products in Japan
About Our Web Site
The content of our web site is written in Japanese. If you would
like to see it, you should add "ja (japanese)" to your web browser's
language setting (Firefox users need to install a "Language Menu"
extension.).
The Japanese top page is here.
---------------------------------------------------------
Hoepfully that's all okay. Just a bit of improvement with regards to the
bastard child of French and German that we all know as English.
The navbar is where I'm concerned there is going to be confusion between
Jakarta and JaJakarta:
s/Check it out!!/News/
s/News/JaJakarta News/
s/Subprojects/Translations/
The names of the Apache projects should be more detailed nowadays. Apache
Ant, Jakarta Cactus, Apache Struts, Jakarta Velocity etc.
Although it adds to the length, it would be nice to have changes (at least
for the English version) for:
s/Get Involved/Get Involved in JaJakarta/
s/Project Management/JaJakarta Management/
The Jakarta News page (honke.html) hasn't had an update since last May.
The favicon.ico would probably be better if it was the pink flower and not
pikachu (or something that looks similar at this screen size :) ).
Lastly, the book advert is a little out of character for an Apache
project. It does list JaJakarta as one of the authors, which is pretty
cool, but aren't there other Japanese books on Apache Java projects that
you could list too? Even if you list JaJakarta first. Basically looking to
make sure you can't be accused of using the Apache brand to sell the book.
--------------
Thoughts?
Hen
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Re: Translations of Jakarta
Posted by Shinobu Kawai <sh...@gmail.com>.
Hi Henri,
> Trademarks/branding also worry me a bit. Do we have to do anything to give
> you permission to use the Feather etc (Apache have been increasingly
> protecting it recently). If we stick with the current l&f, it looks like
> an Apache site, but with no actual affiliation to Apache, so I suspect
> that someday I'll get a browbeating from the board.
When you said "use the Feather", did you mean the use of the Jakarta
logo (http://jakarta.apache.org/images/jakarta-logo.gif) or the actual
feather in the image of the Ja-Jakarta logo
(http://www.jajakarta.org/images/jajakarta.png)? Maybe both?
One more question. Are there any restrictions to using jakarta-site2
(or a modification of it) to build sites for non-ASF projects? If
not, I don't see any problems with having the same l&f. Or am I
missing a point?
Best regards,
-- Shinobu
--
Shinobu "Kawai" Yoshida <sh...@gmail.com>
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Re: Translations of Jakarta
Posted by Shinobu Kawai <sh...@gmail.com>.
Hi Henri,
We're discussing these issues at JaJakarta right now. I'll get back
to you when we reach a conclusion. (Whenever that will be..)
> The translations are great ideas, but all three translations have issues:
>
> As a general issue, there's the question of which community is managing
> them. When we switch the Jakarta site to a lilac and puce look and feel,
> how will the translations respond. When we change the wording on the
> charter, or move Ant to TLP, how do they respond.
>
> Another issue common to all translations is a confusion between links
> about the translation site and links about Jakarta. Both Ja-Jakarta and
> Kr-Jakarta emulate a Jakarta l&f but the Vendors link on Kr-Jakarta is for
> Kr-Jakarta people, and Acknowledgements/Who We Are on Ja-Jakarta are for
> Ja-Jakarta.
>
> This has lead to commercialisation. Ja-Jakarta pushes a Japanese Tomcat
> book, Terra-Intl pushes a different set of Jakarta books, I assume the
> vendor on the Kr-Jakarta page is linked to the authors.
>
> Particular issues:
>
> * I thought the Korean one was dead due to the copyright at the bottom
> saying 1999-2002. Looking closer I realise that they have the latest 2004
> news. Their list of projects is old, Avalon, Ant, James, OJB, Struts all
> appear. Their news links are broken.
>
> * Ja-Jakarta has a definite confusion of Ja-Jakarta and Jakarta links
> (though I like that you have an English translation of the front page
> based on client). It has non-Jakarta subprojects listed (Ant, Log4j,
> Struts). The latest news is from May 2005.
>
> * Terra-Intl doesn't use the Jakarta l&f, but it leads in with book
> advertising and the actual translations are hidden further down. It also
> only translates the front page and not the actual sub-projects.
>
> ---
>
> I believe the best solution is along the lines of Ja-Jakarta, but without
> trying to match the Jakarta l&f so much. Unless you actually manage
> ja-jakarta as an umbrella of translation projects, it should probably say
> Translations on the front page and not Subprojects.
>
> Trademarks/branding also worry me a bit. Do we have to do anything to give
> you permission to use the Feather etc (Apache have been increasingly
> protecting it recently). If we stick with the current l&f, it looks like
> an Apache site, but with no actual affiliation to Apache, so I suspect
> that someday I'll get a browbeating from the board.
>
> I love the idea of translation sites, but my worries mainly all come down
> to 'How do we maintain oversight?'.
>
> Thoughts?
Best regards,
-- Shinobu
--
Shinobu "Kawai" Yoshida <sh...@gmail.com>
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Translations of Jakarta Was: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?
Posted by Henri Yandell <ba...@apache.org>.
On Fri, 31 Dec 2004, Shinobu Kawai wrote:
> Hi Henri,
>
>>>> Here's my mockup proposal:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.apache.org/~bayard/mock-jakarta-frontpage.html
>
>> 3) I struck out the Japanese link. Less bothered about this one, but it's
>> no longer a translation of the Jakarta site in Japanese and seems to be
>> more of a commercial site now.
>
> While you're at it, could we get a link to the Ja-Jakarta project
> (www.jajakarta.org) here? (I mean, in the "Unaffiliated Links"
> section.) Ja-Jakarta is a community in Japan devoted to
> internationalization and translation of Jakarta (and other ASF)
> projects.
> # correct me if I'm wrong, Ja-Jakarta folks
The translations are great ideas, but all three translations have issues:
As a general issue, there's the question of which community is managing
them. When we switch the Jakarta site to a lilac and puce look and feel,
how will the translations respond. When we change the wording on the
charter, or move Ant to TLP, how do they respond.
Another issue common to all translations is a confusion between links
about the translation site and links about Jakarta. Both Ja-Jakarta and
Kr-Jakarta emulate a Jakarta l&f but the Vendors link on Kr-Jakarta is for
Kr-Jakarta people, and Acknowledgements/Who We Are on Ja-Jakarta are for
Ja-Jakarta.
This has lead to commercialisation. Ja-Jakarta pushes a Japanese Tomcat
book, Terra-Intl pushes a different set of Jakarta books, I assume the
vendor on the Kr-Jakarta page is linked to the authors.
Particular issues:
* I thought the Korean one was dead due to the copyright at the bottom
saying 1999-2002. Looking closer I realise that they have the latest 2004
news. Their list of projects is old, Avalon, Ant, James, OJB, Struts all
appear. Their news links are broken.
* Ja-Jakarta has a definite confusion of Ja-Jakarta and Jakarta links
(though I like that you have an English translation of the front page
based on client). It has non-Jakarta subprojects listed (Ant, Log4j,
Struts). The latest news is from May 2005.
* Terra-Intl doesn't use the Jakarta l&f, but it leads in with book
advertising and the actual translations are hidden further down. It also
only translates the front page and not the actual sub-projects.
---
I believe the best solution is along the lines of Ja-Jakarta, but without
trying to match the Jakarta l&f so much. Unless you actually manage
ja-jakarta as an umbrella of translation projects, it should probably say
Translations on the front page and not Subprojects.
Trademarks/branding also worry me a bit. Do we have to do anything to give
you permission to use the Feather etc (Apache have been increasingly
protecting it recently). If we stick with the current l&f, it looks like
an Apache site, but with no actual affiliation to Apache, so I suspect
that someday I'll get a browbeating from the board.
I love the idea of translation sites, but my worries mainly all come down
to 'How do we maintain oversight?'.
Thoughts?
Hen
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Re: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?
Posted by Shinobu Kawai <sh...@gmail.com>.
Hi Henri,
> >> Here's my mockup proposal:
> >>
> >> http://www.apache.org/~bayard/mock-jakarta-frontpage.html
> 3) I struck out the Japanese link. Less bothered about this one, but it's
> no longer a translation of the Jakarta site in Japanese and seems to be
> more of a commercial site now.
While you're at it, could we get a link to the Ja-Jakarta project
(www.jajakarta.org) here? (I mean, in the "Unaffiliated Links"
section.) Ja-Jakarta is a community in Japan devoted to
internationalization and translation of Jakarta (and other ASF)
projects.
# correct me if I'm wrong, Ja-Jakarta folks
Best regards,
-- Shinobu
--
Shinobu "Kawai" Yoshida <sh...@gmail.com>
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Re: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?
Posted by Henri Yandell <ba...@generationjava.com>.
>> On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 14:01:27 -0500 (EST), Henri Yandell
>> <ba...@generationjava.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Here's my mockup proposal:
>>>
>>> http://www.apache.org/~bayard/mock-jakarta-frontpage.html
In case anyone wonders, I've dropped Martin Poeschl's 'In Memoriam' from
the front page, but plan to have it at the top of the whoweare.html page.
Hen
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Re: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?
Posted by Henri Yandell <ba...@generationjava.com>.
On Wed, 29 Dec 2004, Martin Cooper wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 14:01:27 -0500 (EST), Henri Yandell
> <ba...@generationjava.com> wrote:
>>
>> Here's my mockup proposal:
>>
>> http://www.apache.org/~bayard/mock-jakarta-frontpage.html
>
> This looks OK. The one thing I would change, though, is to get rid of
> the indentation under the headings (which would probably necessitate a
> slightly larger gap between the columns). As it is now, with the
> indent, the center text - and especially the table - becomes a rather
> tall, skinny column in a default-sized browser window.
Moving to CSS will make this easily solvable. Rather than using
blockquote, we can use proper CSS margin indentation etc.
I've uploaded a slightly modified version that removes the width from the
columns (it was being set to 20,80 still) and adds in the css lines that
www.apache.org has. I've also shortened the labels in the About Jakarta
section.
Some additional reasons for changes:
1) I've simplified the News. Firstly to reduce front page clutter and
secondly because I think it's a poor use of our resources to try and
manage the other news around Apache.
2) I've struck out the Korean link. Their site hasn't been updated in the
last couple of years and so I don't think we're doing anybody a service by
linking to it.
3) I struck out the Japanese link. Less bothered about this one, but it's
no longer a translation of the Jakarta site in Japanese and seems to be
more of a commercial site now.
4) Various parts of Resources struck out. I think this was all covered in
previous emails. I think www.apache.org covers these issues now and we
don't have to.
So as a general theme: remove fluff, stop trying to be java@apache.
Hen
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Re: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?
Posted by Martin Cooper <mf...@gmail.com>.
On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 14:01:27 -0500 (EST), Henri Yandell
<ba...@generationjava.com> wrote:
>
> Here's my mockup proposal:
>
> http://www.apache.org/~bayard/mock-jakarta-frontpage.html
>
> Changes:
> 3 column
> Strikethrough of links/pages I'd like to kill.
> Less news.
> Removal of Related section (aim is to make this a new page).
> Rewrite of the welcome message to hopefully say the same main thing,
> but use a lot less space.
This looks OK. The one thing I would change, though, is to get rid of
the indentation under the headings (which would probably necessitate a
slightly larger gap between the columns). As it is now, with the
indent, the center text - and especially the table - becomes a rather
tall, skinny column in a default-sized browser window.
> The aim would also be to switch entirely over to the XSL build version
> which seems to work fine and dump Anakia creation.
+1
--
Martin Cooper
> Hen
>
> On Wed, 29 Dec 2004, Henri Yandell wrote:
>
> >
> > I'm a fan of the www.apache.org look and how it gives us a lot more usability
> > in terms of available column space. I'd like to change Jakarta to the
> > 3-columns (though not the l&f or anything).
> >
> > Switching to 3-columns means less space in the center for content, however I
> > also want to simplify the content so I think it will look fine.
> >
> > Any views?
> >
> > Hen
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
> >
> >
>
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Re: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?
Posted by Henri Yandell <ba...@generationjava.com>.
Another hour or so of walking the baby and thinking and I've responded
somewhat to Stephen and others' suggestions:
http://www.apache.org/~bayard/mock-jakarta-frontpage.html
You may have noticed that I've removed yet more. Keep pointing out
issues and we'll be cleaner than Google :)
I've cut back heavily on the Graduated concept, there's just a link to the
ASF Projects in the prose now. The baby and I talked and we decided that a
Java@Apache page is a good idea, it just needs to be not be plastered over
the front page and navigation. So I plan to come up with a page of all the
Java projects at Apache; though I'm not sure how it would link into the
front page.
I've actually kept the Legal bit, but it's right at the bottom in the
footer now. A lot of other pages on the right were cut for striking me as
being useless. For example the Our Mission page didn't really say much
that the rest of the Jakarta and Apache sites don't already say.
I'd like to get 'Apache Website' out of reference and to a different
location, I'm just not sure where. It's basically the equivalent of an
up-directory.
Thoughts?
Hen
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Re: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?
Posted by Henri Yandell <ba...@generationjava.com>.
On Fri, 31 Dec 2004, Stephen Colebourne wrote:
>> What I was thinking of for projects is something like:
>>
>> +----------------+
>> |=Projects=======|
>> +--Subprojects---+
>> | * Alexandia |
>> | * etc... |
>> +--Graduated-----+
>> | * Ant |
>> | * etc... |
>> +----------------+
>>
>> I have two concerns with this: It takes up more space and nothing else
>> uses subheadings. It does put Graduated into context with a noun,
>> though.
>
> My concern is that most users don't care about TLP vs Jakarta owned. So, does
> the terminology 'graduated' help? Why does the user care that some projects
> started at Jakarta, while other Java projects didn't?
They care only in so far as they come to jakarta.apache.org looking for
the old project etc.
> Unless and until Jakarta can become a Java portal @ Apache we have to deal
> with this though. It would seem to me that 'Related' was a looser word for
> these projects, and allows us to include other projects that didn't start at
> Jakarta.
Related's problem is that it is Java@Apache and we have to actively manage
it as each new Java project is added to the ASF. Or at least the ones that
are considered related to Jakarta for some definition of related. The
'News elsewhere' section has the same problem; what is the rationale for
it and why is Jakarta the right place to find it.
While I think there's room for a Java@Apache site somewhere (though I'm
not sure there's really community nowadays at that level), I'm trying to
untangle it from the main part of the Jakarta site.
Other ideas:
* Kill the navbar link to non-Jakarta projects and have a central bit for
recently promoted projects. Over 6 months or so, retire the link there.
* Add a 'Other ASF Projects' at the bottom of our Subprojects list. If
people can't find something, they click on that and goto the ASF Projects
page.
> Also, I don't see any need to use a noun/subheadings here. For me, 'Related'
> on its own would be a sufficient defintion.
The pedantic view is: "Related to what?". Non-nouns need context. Related
works okay as the context is Jakarta and that's the context of the page.
Graduated is weaker as the context is 'From Jakarta' and that's not the
page's context.
As a sidenote, we should have a 'Incubating' section or something with
Agila in it.
Hen
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Re: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?
Posted by Martin Cooper <mf...@gmail.com>.
On Fri, 31 Dec 2004 00:26:15 -0000, Stephen Colebourne
<sc...@btopenworld.com> wrote:
> > What I was thinking of for projects is something like:
> >
> > +----------------+
> > |=Projects=======|
> > +--Subprojects---+
> > | * Alexandia |
> > | * etc... |
> > +--Graduated-----+
> > | * Ant |
> > | * etc... |
> > +----------------+
> >
> > I have two concerns with this: It takes up more space and nothing else
> > uses subheadings. It does put Graduated into context with a noun,
> > though.
>
> My concern is that most users don't care about TLP vs Jakarta owned. So,
> does the terminology 'graduated' help? Why does the user care that some
> projects started at Jakarta, while other Java projects didn't?
Because resource information for projects that have moved away are no
longer found on the Jakarta site. For example, going to the Jakarta
mailing lists page is not going to help you find information on the
Struts mailing lists. I believe the distinction is important to
helping users find what they're looking for.
> Unless and until Jakarta can become a Java portal @ Apache we have to deal
> with this though. It would seem to me that 'Related' was a looser word for
> these projects, and allows us to include other projects that didn't start at
> Jakarta.
We (meaning Hen ;) just got done cleaning up a bunch of "related"
links that didn't seem particularly coherent, so I'd be against
putting it right back again. ;-)
> Also, I don't see any need to use a noun/subheadings here. For me, 'Related'
> on its own would be a sufficient defintion.
I suggested "Alumni" but I don't think I got any takers. It seemed
like the logical noun to replace "Graduated" to me. IMO, "Related" is
too broad, and it was being misused before.
--
Martin Cooper
> Stephen
>
>
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Re: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?
Posted by Stephen Colebourne <sc...@btopenworld.com>.
> What I was thinking of for projects is something like:
>
> +----------------+
> |=Projects=======|
> +--Subprojects---+
> | * Alexandia |
> | * etc... |
> +--Graduated-----+
> | * Ant |
> | * etc... |
> +----------------+
>
> I have two concerns with this: It takes up more space and nothing else
> uses subheadings. It does put Graduated into context with a noun,
> though.
My concern is that most users don't care about TLP vs Jakarta owned. So,
does the terminology 'graduated' help? Why does the user care that some
projects started at Jakarta, while other Java projects didn't?
Unless and until Jakarta can become a Java portal @ Apache we have to deal
with this though. It would seem to me that 'Related' was a looser word for
these projects, and allows us to include other projects that didn't start at
Jakarta.
Also, I don't see any need to use a noun/subheadings here. For me, 'Related'
on its own would be a sufficient defintion.
Stephen
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Re: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?
Posted by James Mason <ma...@apache.org>.
Comments below.
On Wed, 2004-12-29 at 21:41 -0500, Henri Yandell wrote:
>
> On Wed, 29 Dec 2004, James Mason wrote:
>
> > Henri,
> >
> > Looks good. Big improvement, I think :). I especially like how the third
> > column brings more information "above the status bar". A few comments:
>
> Thanks :)
>
> > 1) The first paragraph sounds more like it's describing the ASF than
> > describing Jakarta. A suggestion:
> >
> > -------------------------
> > The Jakarta Project offers a diverse set of open source Java solutions
> > and is a part of [The Apache Software Foundation] (ASF). Like all ASF
> > [projects] Jakarta encourages a collaborative, consensus-based
> > development process under an [open software license].
> > -------------------------
>
> It actually is meant to be describing the ASF :) To cut down on text, I
> threw away 'jakarta, like all ASF, encourages...' to the simpler 'ASF
> encourages'. It's just as true and uses less space. I'd like to dump 'for
> all its projects' to be honest, but didn't want to lose the link to the
> ASF Project page.
>
> It's tempting to chop the last 4 words and add a ASF link on the right,
> together with the other ASF ones, under a new heading of About Apache or
> something.
How important is it to put the projects link right in text? I like the
way it reads without the last four words, so if it works to put the link
elsewhere I think it would be good.
>
> > 2) The first sentence of the second paragraph seems awkward to me. It's
> > not immediately apparent why that information is useful. If I don't know
> > what a TLP is it doesn't really help me, and if I'm looking for a TLP
> > that used to be part of Jakarta it doesn't tell me how to find it.
> > Unfortunately I haven't been able to come up with a better wording.
> > Hopefully someone else is feeling inspired :).
>
> Two big parts I'm looking for in this paragraph.
>
> 1) Jakarta = umbrella project. I don't want to say umbrella as that's an
> odd metaphor to the uninitiated.
How about "parent"?
>
> 2) Definition of graduating, attempt at an explanation of why projects are
> no longer to be found in Jakarta (a common user confusion I think). The
> TLP acronym isn't highly important (at first I thought it was good to get
> it accross, but it's too much info). Linking to the bit above, I could
> dump the TLP acronym and make this the link to the ASF project page.
Hmmm... How about "Jakarta shepherds?? many [subprojects], many of which
have grown and [graduated] into top level ASF [projects]".
Some synonyms for shepherds: guides, oversees, supervises, watches over,
is responsible for.
I think it would be good to link to the list of graduated projects from
the text.
>
> > 3) "Graduated" on the left needs to be in the context of a noun. Maybe
> > swapping the left and right columns (leaving "About" on the left) and
> > making the right column "Projects" with subheadings of "Subprojects" and
> > "Graduated"? That might take up too much space, though.
>
> Gah! Much as I want to scoff at the suggestion for the pain it causes, I
> think you're right, to be correct it should be a noun.
>
> Putting the projects on the right was an option, but I think that
> consumers will mostly want to click through to a subproject, rather than
> any other link there and the LHS is the prime navigation spot.
>
> It also matches the www.apache.org approach, which is nice for the
> symmetry of a user clicking through and not having to adjust their
> navigation flow.
Looking at apache.org, how about moving the About Jakarta section to the
right. This would parallel the Foundation section on apache.org.
What I was thinking of for projects is something like:
+----------------+
|=Projects=======|
+--Subprojects---+
| * Alexandia |
| * etc... |
+--Graduated-----+
| * Ant |
| * etc... |
+----------------+
I have two concerns with this: It takes up more space and nothing else
uses subheadings. It does put Graduated into context with a noun,
though.
>
> Possibly I could change Graduated to Graduated Subprojects? Seems a bit
> long. 'Graduates' seems wrong. Looking for a good label here :)
>
> > 4) Removing the margin from the <ul> that makes up the news would help
> > spread that section out a bit.
>
> Yep. I'm going to hassle a few web designers I know on spacing issues once
> I've updated the XSL build to output this site. All their suggestions will
> involve CSS, so I'll need to have a CSS sheet by then I suspect.
If you need a hand here, let me know. Part of my day job is web design.
-James
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Hen
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Re: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?
Posted by Martin Cooper <mf...@gmail.com>.
On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 21:41:00 -0500 (EST), Henri Yandell
<ba...@generationjava.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, 29 Dec 2004, James Mason wrote:
>
> > Henri,
> >
> > Looks good. Big improvement, I think :). I especially like how the third
> > column brings more information "above the status bar". A few comments:
>
> Thanks :)
>
> > 1) The first paragraph sounds more like it's describing the ASF than
> > describing Jakarta. A suggestion:
> >
> > -------------------------
> > The Jakarta Project offers a diverse set of open source Java solutions
> > and is a part of [The Apache Software Foundation] (ASF). Like all ASF
> > [projects] Jakarta encourages a collaborative, consensus-based
> > development process under an [open software license].
> > -------------------------
>
> It actually is meant to be describing the ASF :) To cut down on text, I
> threw away 'jakarta, like all ASF, encourages...' to the simpler 'ASF
> encourages'. It's just as true and uses less space. I'd like to dump 'for
> all its projects' to be honest, but didn't want to lose the link to the
> ASF Project page.
>
> It's tempting to chop the last 4 words and add a ASF link on the right,
> together with the other ASF ones, under a new heading of About Apache or
> something.
>
> > 2) The first sentence of the second paragraph seems awkward to me. It's
> > not immediately apparent why that information is useful. If I don't know
> > what a TLP is it doesn't really help me, and if I'm looking for a TLP
> > that used to be part of Jakarta it doesn't tell me how to find it.
> > Unfortunately I haven't been able to come up with a better wording.
> > Hopefully someone else is feeling inspired :).
>
> Two big parts I'm looking for in this paragraph.
>
> 1) Jakarta = umbrella project. I don't want to say umbrella as that's an
> odd metaphor to the uninitiated.
>
> 2) Definition of graduating, attempt at an explanation of why projects are
> no longer to be found in Jakarta (a common user confusion I think). The
> TLP acronym isn't highly important (at first I thought it was good to get
> it accross, but it's too much info). Linking to the bit above, I could
> dump the TLP acronym and make this the link to the ASF project page.
>
> > 3) "Graduated" on the left needs to be in the context of a noun. Maybe
> > swapping the left and right columns (leaving "About" on the left) and
> > making the right column "Projects" with subheadings of "Subprojects" and
> > "Graduated"? That might take up too much space, though.
>
> Gah! Much as I want to scoff at the suggestion for the pain it causes, I
> think you're right, to be correct it should be a noun.
>
> Putting the projects on the right was an option, but I think that
> consumers will mostly want to click through to a subproject, rather than
> any other link there and the LHS is the prime navigation spot.
>
> It also matches the www.apache.org approach, which is nice for the
> symmetry of a user clicking through and not having to adjust their
> navigation flow.
>
> Possibly I could change Graduated to Graduated Subprojects? Seems a bit
> long. 'Graduates' seems wrong. Looking for a good label here :)
Alumni?
--
Martin Cooper
> > 4) Removing the margin from the <ul> that makes up the news would help
> > spread that section out a bit.
>
> Yep. I'm going to hassle a few web designers I know on spacing issues once
> I've updated the XSL build to output this site. All their suggestions will
> involve CSS, so I'll need to have a CSS sheet by then I suspect.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Hen
>
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Re: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?
Posted by Henri Yandell <ba...@generationjava.com>.
On Wed, 29 Dec 2004, James Mason wrote:
> Henri,
>
> Looks good. Big improvement, I think :). I especially like how the third
> column brings more information "above the status bar". A few comments:
Thanks :)
> 1) The first paragraph sounds more like it's describing the ASF than
> describing Jakarta. A suggestion:
>
> -------------------------
> The Jakarta Project offers a diverse set of open source Java solutions
> and is a part of [The Apache Software Foundation] (ASF). Like all ASF
> [projects] Jakarta encourages a collaborative, consensus-based
> development process under an [open software license].
> -------------------------
It actually is meant to be describing the ASF :) To cut down on text, I
threw away 'jakarta, like all ASF, encourages...' to the simpler 'ASF
encourages'. It's just as true and uses less space. I'd like to dump 'for
all its projects' to be honest, but didn't want to lose the link to the
ASF Project page.
It's tempting to chop the last 4 words and add a ASF link on the right,
together with the other ASF ones, under a new heading of About Apache or
something.
> 2) The first sentence of the second paragraph seems awkward to me. It's
> not immediately apparent why that information is useful. If I don't know
> what a TLP is it doesn't really help me, and if I'm looking for a TLP
> that used to be part of Jakarta it doesn't tell me how to find it.
> Unfortunately I haven't been able to come up with a better wording.
> Hopefully someone else is feeling inspired :).
Two big parts I'm looking for in this paragraph.
1) Jakarta = umbrella project. I don't want to say umbrella as that's an
odd metaphor to the uninitiated.
2) Definition of graduating, attempt at an explanation of why projects are
no longer to be found in Jakarta (a common user confusion I think). The
TLP acronym isn't highly important (at first I thought it was good to get
it accross, but it's too much info). Linking to the bit above, I could
dump the TLP acronym and make this the link to the ASF project page.
> 3) "Graduated" on the left needs to be in the context of a noun. Maybe
> swapping the left and right columns (leaving "About" on the left) and
> making the right column "Projects" with subheadings of "Subprojects" and
> "Graduated"? That might take up too much space, though.
Gah! Much as I want to scoff at the suggestion for the pain it causes, I
think you're right, to be correct it should be a noun.
Putting the projects on the right was an option, but I think that
consumers will mostly want to click through to a subproject, rather than
any other link there and the LHS is the prime navigation spot.
It also matches the www.apache.org approach, which is nice for the
symmetry of a user clicking through and not having to adjust their
navigation flow.
Possibly I could change Graduated to Graduated Subprojects? Seems a bit
long. 'Graduates' seems wrong. Looking for a good label here :)
> 4) Removing the margin from the <ul> that makes up the news would help
> spread that section out a bit.
Yep. I'm going to hassle a few web designers I know on spacing issues once
I've updated the XSL build to output this site. All their suggestions will
involve CSS, so I'll need to have a CSS sheet by then I suspect.
Thoughts?
Hen
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Re: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?
Posted by James Mason <ma...@apache.org>.
Henri,
Looks good. Big improvement, I think :). I especially like how the third
column brings more information "above the status bar". A few comments:
1) The first paragraph sounds more like it's describing the ASF than
describing Jakarta. A suggestion:
-------------------------
The Jakarta Project offers a diverse set of open source Java solutions
and is a part of [The Apache Software Foundation] (ASF). Like all ASF
[projects] Jakarta encourages a collaborative, consensus-based
development process under an [open software license].
-------------------------
2) The first sentence of the second paragraph seems awkward to me. It's
not immediately apparent why that information is useful. If I don't know
what a TLP is it doesn't really help me, and if I'm looking for a TLP
that used to be part of Jakarta it doesn't tell me how to find it.
Unfortunately I haven't been able to come up with a better wording.
Hopefully someone else is feeling inspired :).
3) "Graduated" on the left needs to be in the context of a noun. Maybe
swapping the left and right columns (leaving "About" on the left) and
making the right column "Projects" with subheadings of "Subprojects" and
"Graduated"? That might take up too much space, though.
4) Removing the margin from the <ul> that makes up the news would help
spread that section out a bit.
-James
On Wed, 2004-12-29 at 14:01 -0500, Henri Yandell wrote:
> Here's my mockup proposal:
>
> http://www.apache.org/~bayard/mock-jakarta-frontpage.html
>
> Changes:
> 3 column
> Strikethrough of links/pages I'd like to kill.
> Less news.
> Removal of Related section (aim is to make this a new page).
> Rewrite of the welcome message to hopefully say the same main thing,
> but use a lot less space.
>
> The aim would also be to switch entirely over to the XSL build version
> which seems to work fine and dump Anakia creation.
>
> Hen
>
> On Wed, 29 Dec 2004, Henri Yandell wrote:
>
> >
> > I'm a fan of the www.apache.org look and how it gives us a lot more usability
> > in terms of available column space. I'd like to change Jakarta to the
> > 3-columns (though not the l&f or anything).
> >
> > Switching to 3-columns means less space in the center for content, however I
> > also want to simplify the content so I think it will look fine.
> >
> > Any views?
> >
> > Hen
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
> >
> >
>
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RE: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?
Posted by Henri Yandell <ba...@generationjava.com>.
On Wed, 29 Dec 2004, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>> http://www.apache.org/~bayard/mock-jakarta-frontpage.html
>
> We might consider changing some of the wording if you are going to refer to
> projects growing up and leaving. We could refer to Jakarta as a federation
> of projects, some of which are under the oversight of the Jakarta PMC, and
> some of which are TLPs in their own right.
I'm loathe to change the message that much simply because I don't think we
all agree on what Jakarta is and I want to get the basics (clean/simpler
site) done before worrying about whether Jakarta is a basic TLP, or if we
are Java@Apache still.
Trying to keep somewhat of a focus :)
Hen
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RE: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> http://www.apache.org/~bayard/mock-jakarta-frontpage.html
We might consider changing some of the wording if you are going to refer to
projects growing up and leaving. We could refer to Jakarta as a federation
of projects, some of which are under the oversight of the Jakarta PMC, and
some of which are TLPs in their own right.
--- Noel
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Re: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?
Posted by Henri Yandell <ba...@generationjava.com>.
Here's my mockup proposal:
http://www.apache.org/~bayard/mock-jakarta-frontpage.html
Changes:
3 column
Strikethrough of links/pages I'd like to kill.
Less news.
Removal of Related section (aim is to make this a new page).
Rewrite of the welcome message to hopefully say the same main thing,
but use a lot less space.
The aim would also be to switch entirely over to the XSL build version
which seems to work fine and dump Anakia creation.
Hen
On Wed, 29 Dec 2004, Henri Yandell wrote:
>
> I'm a fan of the www.apache.org look and how it gives us a lot more usability
> in terms of available column space. I'd like to change Jakarta to the
> 3-columns (though not the l&f or anything).
>
> Switching to 3-columns means less space in the center for content, however I
> also want to simplify the content so I think it will look fine.
>
> Any views?
>
> Hen
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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