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Posted to users@cocoon.apache.org by "Vasil I. Yaroshevich" <sh...@mail.ru> on 2003/06/04 19:41:49 UTC
TeX to PDF serializator
Whether exists subj?
--
Best regards,
Vasil mailto:shade33@mail.ru
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Re: Re[2]: TeX to PDF serializator
Posted by Andre Thenot <at...@thenot.net>.
On Thursday, June 5, 2003, at 05:35 AM, Vasil I. Yaroshevich wrote:
> I can make XML document such as
> <root>
> <![CDATA[
> LaTex document there
> ]]>
> </root>
> and I want to convert it to PDF. How?
Sure you can. But that defeats the whole purpose of using XML in
the first place. :-)
> AS> what would definitly be useful is a tex generator, that
> generatex XML
> AS> out of tex
Cocoon only processes XML in the pipeline. So to accomplish what
you're describing, Alexander's solution would be more
appropriate: Make a TeX generator, transform your XML how you
want to, and serialize it to PDF.
TeX => XML ... XML => PDF.
If you want to skip the XML process, then Cocoon is not the
appropriate tool (see pdflatex and friends for that).
Andre.
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Re[2]: TeX to PDF serializator
Posted by "Vasil I. Yaroshevich" <sh...@mail.ru>.
AS> Vasil I. Yaroshevich wrote:
>>Whether exists subj?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
AS> what should this be good for? tex is not XML and hence can not take part
AS> in the Cocoon pipeline.
Why not? I have a XML document with MathML fragment. Also I have XSLT
document for trasformation it to LaTeX.
AS> To publish tex, you can use pdflatex and publish
AS> the PDF directly.
Of course.
I can make XML document such as
<root>
<![CDATA[
LaTex document there
]]>
</root>
and I want to convert it to PDF. How?
AS> what would definitly be useful is a tex generator, that generatex XML
AS> out of tex
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Re: TeX to PDF serializator
Posted by Alexander Schatten <al...@gmx.at>.
Vasil I. Yaroshevich wrote:
>Whether exists subj?
>
>
>
>
>
what should this be good for? tex is not XML and hence can not take part
in the Cocoon pipeline. To publish tex, you can use pdflatex and publish
the PDF directly.
what would definitly be useful is a tex generator, that generatex XML
out of tex
alex
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Re: TeX to PDF serializator
Posted by Bruno Dumon <br...@outerthought.org>.
On Wed, 2003-06-11 at 20:27, Alexander Schatten wrote:
> Peter Flynn wrote:
>
> >This has come up several times before. I agree completely: many people
> >want to use LaTeX to create PDF because it does a vastly
> >better job than any of the FOP systems.
> >
> >
> nevertheless it is imho the completly wrong attempt. because FOP is not
> ready for primetime, you suggest to put energy to integrate a legacy
> system, that does not fit into the XML publishing process??
What's the difference between letting fop rendering a pdf or tex
rendering a pdf? And why would it not fit within an xml publishing
process? The only thing you'd need to do is define an xml syntax for
tex, there used to be a project an ibm's alphaworks that did just that.
The serializer can then transparently transform that xml syntax to
native tex syntax, and run tex on it.
Alternatively, if I remember well, context (a tex macro package)
supports xml directly as input format.
The enegery required to do all this is a lot less (and of a different
kind) than that required to enhance fop.
[...]
> >
> I really cannot see the point. the only thing I would need is a
> generator that 1:1 tries to move LaTeX into XML,
that's what *you* would need, not what the guy asked for. He wanted to
do the inverse.
[...]
> >
> >
> >>The next one will ask, why Cocoon cannot create WML from powerpoint or
> >>SVG from Postscript.
And here you are again comparing with the inverse process: it would make
sense to convert svg to postscript.
--
Bruno Dumon http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
bruno@outerthought.org bruno@apache.org
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Re: TeX to PDF serializator
Posted by Stephan Michels <st...@apache.org>.
On Wed, 11 Jun 2003, Alexander Schatten wrote:
> Peter Flynn wrote:
> >TeX systems are for formatting: you use them to typeset something
> >which was created/edited/stored/manipulated in (for example) XML.
> >Because of the way history happened, TeX preceded XML, so we have
> >a lot of legacy TeX. Sure it would be nice to have a tex2xml which
> >would do the job (actually there are a few attempts) but if you stop
> >for a moment to think of the ghastly mess which most authors make
> >of TeX, you'll realise why there is no such animal right now. Yes,
> >you could write a conversion from well-formed LaTeX to XML (I actually
> >did one a long time ago, for SGML) but the instant an author starts
> >to write her own macros or mess manually with the formatting, the model
> >breaks and translation becomes virtually impossible. To effect it fully
> >you'd need to rewrite TeX the program to output XML instead of DVI or
> >PDF, and you'd *still* be in trouble because most of what TeX formats
> >carries nothing with it which can be used to indicate markup, unless
> >you want to go back to the days of <b>, <i>, and <u>.
> >
> >
> I really cannot see the point. the only thing I would need is a
> generator that 1:1 tries to move LaTeX into XML, if this is a user
> written command or not.
>
> \begin{Citation}{1234}{456}
> blabla
> \end{Citation}
>
> should become to something like
>
> <comm arg1="Citation" arg2="1234" arg3="456">
> blabla
> </comm>
>
> and \index{Test} to <index>Test</index>
>
> you can then write your own stylesheets to process this to whatever
> needed. So really no need to rewrite the tex program. far away from this!
>
> and such a generator would be fully sufficient to process available tex
> documents for some reasons.
In my working group we use the Chaperon components to convert Tex
into xml, because Tex is much easier to write than XML.
And if you need to convert Tex the following article might be a solution:
http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/java/library/j-jspmath/
Stephan.
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PassiveTeX (Re: TeX to PDF serializator)
Posted by Andreas Kuckartz <A....@ping.de>.
A (hopefully) constructive suggestion.
There exist programs which implement XSL FO -> PDF transformations using
TeX.
PassiveTeX is Open Source, the Unicorn software is not. If someone tries to
use them with Cocoon please let me know.
Cheers,
Andreas
---
PassiveTeX
- PassiveTeX is a library of TeX macros which can be used to process an XML
document which results from an XSL transformation to formatting objects.
- PassiveTeX provides a rapid development environment for experimenting with
XSL FO, using a reliable pre-existing formatter
- Running PassiveTeX with the pdfTeX variant of TeX generates high-quality
PDF files in a single operation.
- PassiveTeX shows how TeX can remain the formatter of choice for XML, while
hiding the details of its operation from the user.
http://www.tei-c.org.uk/Software/passivetex/
---
Unicorn Formatting Objects
"The product design was inspired by work of Sebastian Rahtz (JadeTeX,
PassiveTeX) and James Clark (Jade)."
http://www.unicorn-enterprises.com/products_ufo.html
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Re: TeX to PDF serializator
Posted by Joerg Heinicke <jo...@gmx.de>.
To make it short:
A TeXSerializer with a transformer delivering TeX text is not possible.
You must have SAX events in a pipe, not text. So the only option is a
TeXSerializer understanding XSL FO or a XML representation of TeX. But
this would already be very near to FOP.
Of course you can encapsulate the XSL FO to TeX transformation in the
serializer and feed the result directly into a TeXProcessor, but I don't
know whether this is a good approach. But it really doesn't seem to make
sense, adding a further transformation step for using legacy processor
as far you have to code the further transformation step. IMO it's better
to support developers of XSL FO processors like FOP.
Joerg
Alexander Schatten wrote:
> Andreas Kuckartz wrote:
>
>> I do not intend to be rude - but it might make sense if you learn a
>> bit more
>> about what TeX is doing before you make such judgements.
>>
>>
> thank you. I am working with LaTeX for nearly 10 years, so I know a
> *little* bit about it. In fact, you may believe me, that *I* know what
> *I* want, though some here seem to try to convince me that I do not know
> what I want...
>
> however, there might be no others with the same desires, that is off
> course possible.
>
>> Anyway you are free to try to enhance FO so that it can replace TeX.
>>
>>
> you seem to address the wrong one: I did not criticize in the beginning:
> I was just mentioning, that *if* someone has energy to do something, I
> would assume to be invested better in FOP then in XML/LaTex.
>
>
> that is --- again --- my opinion.
>
>
> alex
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Re: TeX to PDF serializator
Posted by Alexander Schatten <al...@gmx.at>.
Andreas Kuckartz wrote:
>I do not intend to be rude - but it might make sense if you learn a bit more
>about what TeX is doing before you make such judgements.
>
>
thank you. I am working with LaTeX for nearly 10 years, so I know a
*little* bit about it. In fact, you may believe me, that *I* know what
*I* want, though some here seem to try to convince me that I do not know
what I want...
however, there might be no others with the same desires, that is off
course possible.
>Anyway you are free to try to enhance FO so that it can replace TeX.
>
>
you seem to address the wrong one: I did not criticize in the beginning:
I was just mentioning, that *if* someone has energy to do something, I
would assume to be invested better in FOP then in XML/LaTex.
that is --- again --- my opinion.
alex
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Re: TeX to PDF serializator
Posted by Andreas Kuckartz <A....@ping.de>.
> nevertheless it is imho the completly wrong attempt. because FOP is not
> ready for primetime, you suggest to put energy to integrate a legacy
> system, that does not fit into the XML publishing process?? this sounds
> weird to me. far better would be the idea to invest more energy in
> enhancing FOP.
[...]
> I really cannot see the point. the only thing I would need is a
> generator that 1:1 tries to move LaTeX into XML, if this is a user
> written command or not.
I do not intend to be rude - but it might make sense if you learn a bit more
about what TeX is doing before you make such judgements.
Anyway you are free to try to enhance FO so that it can replace TeX.
Andreas
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Re: TeX to PDF serializator
Posted by Alexander Schatten <al...@gmx.at>.
Peter Flynn wrote:
>This has come up several times before. I agree completely: many people
>want to use LaTeX to create PDF because it does a vastly
>better job than any of the FOP systems.
>
>
nevertheless it is imho the completly wrong attempt. because FOP is not
ready for primetime, you suggest to put energy to integrate a legacy
system, that does not fit into the XML publishing process?? this sounds
weird to me. far better would be the idea to invest more energy in
enhancing FOP.
>This is really a bad idea, I'm afraid, and the very last thing we
>actually want or need.
>
>
It is always great to be informed by others what *I* need.
thank you!
;-)
>TeX systems are for formatting: you use them to typeset something
>which was created/edited/stored/manipulated in (for example) XML.
>Because of the way history happened, TeX preceded XML, so we have
>a lot of legacy TeX. Sure it would be nice to have a tex2xml which
>would do the job (actually there are a few attempts) but if you stop
>for a moment to think of the ghastly mess which most authors make
>of TeX, you'll realise why there is no such animal right now. Yes,
>you could write a conversion from well-formed LaTeX to XML (I actually
>did one a long time ago, for SGML) but the instant an author starts
>to write her own macros or mess manually with the formatting, the model
>breaks and translation becomes virtually impossible. To effect it fully
>you'd need to rewrite TeX the program to output XML instead of DVI or
>PDF, and you'd *still* be in trouble because most of what TeX formats
>carries nothing with it which can be used to indicate markup, unless
>you want to go back to the days of <b>, <i>, and <u>.
>
>
I really cannot see the point. the only thing I would need is a
generator that 1:1 tries to move LaTeX into XML, if this is a user
written command or not.
\begin{Citation}{1234}{456}
blabla
\end{Citation}
should become to something like
<comm arg1="Citation" arg2="1234" arg3="456">
blabla
</comm>
and \index{Test} to <index>Test</index>
you can then write your own stylesheets to process this to whatever
needed. So really no need to rewrite the tex program. far away from this!
and such a generator would be fully sufficient to process available tex
documents for some reasons.
>
>
>>The next one will ask, why Cocoon cannot create WML from powerpoint or
>>SVG from Postscript.
>>
>>
>
>Because PowerPoint is not (yet) an XML format, nor is PostScript.
>What we need to to be able to go from XML to PDF via LaTeX.
>
>
the same as LaTeX is no XML format? you seem to mix up a few things here.
Alex
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Re: TeX to PDF serializator
Posted by Peter Flynn <pe...@silmaril.ie>.
On Tue, 2003-06-10 at 23:57, Andre Thenot wrote:
> On Tuesday, June 10, 2003, at 06:37 PM, Peter Flynn wrote:
>
> > In any case, it shouldn't be specific to LaTeX. All we need is an
> > ability of Cocoon to spawn an external process and serve the result
> > back to the user with a defined media type.
>
> There's a _big_ problem with this: how do I apply a transformer
> on an external process? I cant!
You don't, and you don't need to. All you need to do is transform
the XML using an XSLT text-mode stylesheet and feed the *output*
to LaTeX, then pass the resulting PDF back to the user.
This is the same concept as transforming XML to FO and
passing the result through a FO processor and passing the
resulting PDF back to the user.
> For your use (reading and serving), you could write a servlet
> (or even use a plain web server, for that matter).
I'd rather use Cocoon to manage the process.
> Cocoon is an *XML* publishing framework. Except for the initial
> input and final output, everything MUST be XML.
I think this is more of a religious argument than a practical one.
The problem is that the typographic quality of FO processors is
extremely poor compared with LaTeX, and there seems little point in
constantly reinventing the wheel by writing vastly complex XSL
to output PDF when the job can be done more simply and accurately
and efficiently by outputting LaTeX from XSLT.
I'm astonished that the authors of FO processors have not learned
from 25 years of automated typesetting using LaTeX.
> I remember reading about TeXML a little while ago; I don't know
> how broad it is or even if it's still alive.
When it's better developed that would answer the case, as it would
accept XML as input and emit PDF as output, same as FOP.
///Peter
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Re: TeX to PDF serializator
Posted by Andre Thenot <at...@thenot.net>.
On Tuesday, June 10, 2003, at 06:37 PM, Peter Flynn wrote:
> In any case, it shouldn't be specific to LaTeX. All we need is an
> ability of Cocoon to spawn an external process and serve the result
> back to the user with a defined media type.
There's a _big_ problem with this: how do I apply a transformer
on an external process? I cant!
For your use (reading and serving), you could write a servlet
(or even use a plain web server, for that matter).
Cocoon is an *XML* publishing framework. Except for the initial
input and final output, everything MUST be XML.
I remember reading about TeXML a little while ago; I don't know
how broad it is or even if it's still alive.
A.
--
André Thénot - andre@thenot.net
p e a c e : p a i x : p a x : s h a l o m
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Re: TeX to PDF serializator
Posted by Peter Flynn <pe...@silmaril.ie>.
On Tue, 2003-06-10 at 23:03, Alexander Schatten wrote:
> Andreas Kuckartz wrote:
>
> >>I think it's not in the the cocoon project's goals.
> >>
> >Why not? A good reason which I can see for such a component is that you
> >could use the features of TeX to automatically create printable pages with
> >high quality.
This has come up several times before. I agree completely: many people
want to use LaTeX to create PDF because it does a vastly
better job than any of the FOP systems.
> I cant get the point. Cocoon is an XML publishing tool. The central idea
> is the XML based pipeline.
Sure. So why not let external processors into the pipeline? Other
systems do (eg PropelX). You seem to have missed the point that at
*some* stage, your text *has* to cease being XML and become pixels
if you want it read. It's just a case of when that happens: normally
we want to keep it in XML as long as possible, because Cocoon and
other XML systems provide better control than non-XML systems. But
only up to a point: I would argue that because LaTeX does a better
job of formatting than anything else, *that* is the point when my
text should leave XML and start the journey to pixels.
> Why should Cocoon now be responsible for a hodgepodge of other
> publication tasks? how does TEX fit into the pipeline? not at all.
Very easily. It's almost trivial to write text-mode XSLT which will
output LaTeX source code. All that is needed is to spawn a task which
runs LaTeX on that code (and can subspawn BIBTeX and makeindex).
> only
> if (what I would *really* appreciate) someone would generate an TeX
> generator, that creates XML out of tex; this would seamless integrate
> also TeX ressources.
This is really a bad idea, I'm afraid, and the very last thing we
actually want or need.
TeX systems are for formatting: you use them to typeset something
which was created/edited/stored/manipulated in (for example) XML.
Because of the way history happened, TeX preceded XML, so we have
a lot of legacy TeX. Sure it would be nice to have a tex2xml which
would do the job (actually there are a few attempts) but if you stop
for a moment to think of the ghastly mess which most authors make
of TeX, you'll realise why there is no such animal right now. Yes,
you could write a conversion from well-formed LaTeX to XML (I actually
did one a long time ago, for SGML) but the instant an author starts
to write her own macros or mess manually with the formatting, the model
breaks and translation becomes virtually impossible. To effect it fully
you'd need to rewrite TeX the program to output XML instead of DVI or
PDF, and you'd *still* be in trouble because most of what TeX formats
carries nothing with it which can be used to indicate markup, unless
you want to go back to the days of <b>, <i>, and <u>.
> but TeX processing is obviously no Cocoon purpose.
On the contrary, it's badly needed. Even more so is a latex-mode
for XSLT (but that's a different thing).
> The next one will ask, why Cocoon cannot create WML from powerpoint or
> SVG from Postscript.
Because PowerPoint is not (yet) an XML format, nor is PostScript.
What we need to to be able to go from XML to PDF via LaTeX.
In any case, it shouldn't be specific to LaTeX. All we need is an
ability of Cocoon to spawn an external process and serve the result
back to the user with a defined media type.
///Peter
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Re: TeX to PDF serializator
Posted by Alexander Schatten <al...@gmx.at>.
Andreas Kuckartz wrote:
>>I think it's not in the the cocoon project's goals.
>>
>>
>
>Why not? A good reason which I can see for such a component is that you
>could use the features of TeX to automatically create printable pages with
>high quality.
>
>
>
I cant get the point. Cocoon is an XML publishing tool. The central idea
is the XML based pipeline.
Why should Cocoon now be responsible for a hodgepodge of other
publication tasks? how does TEX fit into the pipeline? not at all. only
if (what I would *really* appreciate) someone would generate an TeX
generator, that creates XML out of tex; this would seamless integrate
also TeX ressources.
but TeX processing is obviously no Cocoon purpose.
The next one will ask, why Cocoon cannot create WML from powerpoint or
SVG from Postscript.
So there are many publication traces thinkable: Cocoon is one of them.
Alex
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Re: TeX to PDF serializator
Posted by Andreas Kuckartz <A....@ping.de>.
> I think it's not in the the cocoon project's goals.
Why not? A good reason which I can see for such a component is that you
could use the features of TeX to automatically create printable pages with
high quality.
Andreas
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Re: TeX to PDF serializator
Posted by Nicolas SANDRI <ni...@free.fr>.
I think it's not in the the cocoon project's goals.
A project also exist :
http://tex2pdf.berlios.de/
Nicolas
Le mercredi, 4 juin 2003, à 19:41 Europe/Paris, Vasil I. Yaroshevich a
écrit :
> Whether exists subj?
>
>
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Vasil mailto:shade33@mail.ru
>
>
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>
>
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