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Posted to dev@netbeans.apache.org by Jaroslav Tulach <ja...@gmail.com> on 2017/11/08 08:52:47 UTC
Give JavaHelp a chance! was: Release Apache NetBeans 9.0 Alpha (incubating)
Hello Ate,
thanks for trying the NetBeans Platform 9.0 Alpha bits.
> And that still has status "To do". Furthermore, it depends on the *GPL*
> external jsearch-2.0_05.jar which is a no-go... for the ASF.
> See: https://www.apache.org/legal/resolved.html#category-x
>
> ...
>
> Note that the binary also includes the jsearch jar.
> And while the binary isn't the release itself, if/when a convenience
> binary is provided *then* it needs to be in compliance with the
> distribution rules. So no GPL artifacts allowed.
>
>
Yes, NetBeans depends on JavaHelp and JavaHelp has been developed under
GPLv2 with CP exception. However the last commit has been made ten years
ago by me or Jesse Glick - e.g. nobody cares about JavaHelp anymore. That
means there are no business reasons to keep JavaHelp under GPLv2. As such
we are trying to convince Oracle to relicense JavaHelp and release it under
more Apache friendly license. toThere are at least two good reasons to do
it:
#1 - simplify NetBeans Apache incubation
#2 - simplify acceptance of JavaEE into Eclipse Foundation (yes, JavaEE
also needs JavaHelp for some reason)
While we saw a bit of resistance when we used #1 as argument for
re-licensing JavaHelp, things started to change when #2 issue showed up. As
such we believe that the JavaHelp licensing issue will be resolved soon
(measuring that in the glacier speed changes are happening in Oracle). In
any case I believe in a year or two we can expected JavaHelp with a
friendly license.
Btw. there already is https://github.com/javaee/javahelp with CDDL license.
A proof the JavaEE guys are solving the same problem. Maybe we can just use
JavaHelp from that source and our GPL problems are gone. In any case I
don't think we need urgent surgery/lobotomy for 1st NetBeans Alpha
(incubating) release. It may be wiser to wait until the problem solves
itself.
All I am asking: Please give JavaHelp a chance!
-jt
Re: Give JavaHelp a chance! was: Release Apache NetBeans 9.0 Alpha (incubating)
Posted by Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@googlemail.com>.
On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 4:30 PM, Ate Douma <at...@douma.nu> wrote:
>
> Or postpone adding/providing the javahelp feature until its (downstream) licenses
>>>> are resolved.
>>>
>>>
+1
Gj
Re: Give JavaHelp a chance! was: Release Apache NetBeans 9.0 Alpha
(incubating)
Posted by Ate Douma <at...@douma.nu>.
On 2017-11-08 11:26, Jan Lahoda wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 10:40 AM, Ate Douma <at...@douma.nu> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On 2017-11-08 09:52, Jaroslav Tulach wrote:
>>
>>> Hello Ate,
>>> thanks for trying the NetBeans Platform 9.0 Alpha bits.
>>>
>>>
>>> > And that still has status "To do". Furthermore, it depends on the *GPL*
>>>
>>> external jsearch-2.0_05.jar which is a no-go... for the ASF.
>>> See: https://www.apache.org/legal/resolved.html#category-x
>>> <https://www.apache.org/legal/resolved.html#category-x>
>>>
>>> ...
>>> >
>>>
>>> Note that the binary also includes the jsearch jar.
>>> And while the binary isn't the release itself, if/when a convenience
>>> binary is provided *then* it needs to be in compliance with the
>>> distribution rules. So no GPL artifacts allowed.
>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, NetBeans depends on JavaHelp and JavaHelp has been developed under
>>> GPLv2 with CP exception. However the last commit has been made ten years
>>> ago by me or Jesse Glick - e.g. nobody cares about JavaHelp anymore. That
>>> means there are no business reasons to keep JavaHelp under GPLv2. As such
>>> we are trying to convince Oracle to relicense JavaHelp and release it under
>>> more Apache friendly license. toThere are at least two good reasons to do
>>> it:
>>>
>>> #1 - simplify NetBeans Apache incubation
>>> #2 - simplify acceptance of JavaEE into Eclipse Foundation (yes, JavaEE
>>> also needs JavaHelp for some reason)
>>>
>>> While we saw a bit of resistance when we used #1 as argument for
>>> re-licensing JavaHelp, things started to change when #2 issue showed up. As
>>> such we believe that the JavaHelp licensing issue will be resolved soon
>>> (measuring that in the glacier speed changes are happening in Oracle). In
>>> any case I believe in a year or two we can expected JavaHelp with a
>>> friendly license.
>>>
>>> Btw. there already is https://github.com/javaee/javahelp with CDDL
>>> license. A proof the JavaEE guys are solving the same problem. Maybe we can
>>> just use JavaHelp from that source and our GPL problems are gone.
>>>
>> Seems like a, or even the, direction to solve this.
>> If those 'JavaEE guys' can be persuaded to tag/release soon, then yes,
>> Netbeans can use (externally depend on) that JavaHelp version under the
>> CDDL license.
>> So I suggest start persuading them :-)
>>
>> In any case I don't think we need urgent surgery/lobotomy for 1st NetBeans
>>> Alpha (incubating) release. It may be wiser to wait until the problem
>>> solves itself >
>>> All I am asking: Please give JavaHelp a chance!
>>>
>>
>> Well, as long as there is no alternative under an acceptable license,
>> the GPL license remains a blocker IMO to include the current version.
>>
>
> Just to be sure: it is OK to build against a GPL library, right? (Having it
> optional at runtime.) We can strip the jsearch.jar for now, that's not that
> big deal IMO (I can do that tonight, but not right now). But we have a
> different version of JavaHelp against which we compile the NetBeans help;
> and we have some more GPL libraries against which it would be much easier
> to compile.
This is very much alike the nb-javac discussion, for which we have
explicit clearance from Apache Legal [1]. But we cannot automatically
assume the same clearance holds for any other type of GPL+CPE.
IMO this and likewise cases require one by one separate clearance (need
a separate LEGAL ticket) first.
Furthermore, we need to provide users instructions (or in the future
some kind of interactive dialog) how to *separately* download/provide
the 3rd party dependency with GPL+CPE license needed for it.
So they know about and accept the consequence of using that license.
To be sure: we can *not* bundle any form or variant of GPL artifacts in
the distribution!
Or postpone adding/providing the javahelp feature until its (downstream)
licenses are resolved.
Also to be clear: the above only is or might be applicable for GPL+CPE
(or LGPL) dependencies, but *never* for full GPL, e.g. we cannot and may
not have any form of direct/indirect usage/linking to full GPL source or
artifact within the ASF.
[1] https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-279
>
> Jan
>
>
>> Unless, we can get an explicit exception for the restriction from the
>> Apache Legal Committee.
>> Which is not impossible but needs to be asked first, e.g. needs creating
>> a https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL ticket with the clear
>> use-case and explanation of what we need here.
>>
>> Ate
>>
>> -jt
>>>
>>>
>
RE: Give JavaHelp a chance! was: Release Apache NetBeans 9.0 Alpha (incubating)
Posted by Jan Tosovsky <j....@email.cz>.
Btw, what is the source for NetBeans help?
Some content is now distributed as JavaHelp, some is hosted here: https://docs.oracle.com/netbeans/nb82/netbeans/NBDAG/gs_nbeans.htm#NBDAG111
From my point of view:
JavaHelp
+ context sensitive help
+ search capabilities
- HTML 3.2 with very limited CSS support
- ugly UI
HTML based help (e.g. DocBook WebHelp)
+ HTML5, responsivity
+ search capabilities using Lucene search index
- context sensitive help needs a special handling:
(a) a special mapping 'context ID -> URL' is required
(b) as opening a browser and passing an URL with a fragment identifier is buggy in Java, a special strategy has to be employed
If the help source was DocBook, that WebHelp output could be generated quite 'easily'. But in this case I'd rather recommend my fork (yet to be distributed on GitHub) without jQuery/jQueryUI dependencies and with some additional features (responsivity, breadcrumb).
See the real example at https://www.bilyujezd.cz/ (not at all related to programming :-)
Jan
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Antonio Vieiro [mailto:antonio@vieiro.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 8, 2017 12:38 PM
> To: dev@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Give JavaHelp a chance! was: Release Apache NetBeans 9.0
> Alpha (incubating)
>
> So, what about using DocBook Web Help [1]? After all nowadays all
> users have a web browser, don't they?
>
> They even have a maven plugin[2]. This is BSD licensed. The results
> [3] look acceptable to me.
>
> We could even try to fork the project (maybe it's unmaintained)?
>
> Cheers,
> Antonio
>
> [1] http://blog.kasunbg.org/2010/08/docbook-webhelp-project.html
> [2] http://docbkx-tools.sourceforge.net/docbkx-samples/manual.html
> [3]
> http://docbook.sourceforge.net/release/xsl/current/webhelp/docs/index.h
> tml
>
> 2017-11-08 12:19 GMT+01:00 Geertjan Wielenga
> <ge...@googlemail.com>:
> > Here's the issue relating to JavaHelp, would be best to
> track/document
> > everything there:
> >
> > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/NETBEANS-3
> >
> > Gj
> >
> > On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 11:26 AM, Jan Lahoda <la...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 10:40 AM, Ate Douma <at...@douma.nu> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On 2017-11-08 09:52, Jaroslav Tulach wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Hello Ate,
> >> >> thanks for trying the NetBeans Platform 9.0 Alpha bits.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> > And that still has status "To do". Furthermore, it depends on
> the
> >> *GPL*
> >> >>
> >> >> external jsearch-2.0_05.jar which is a no-go... for the ASF.
> >> >> See: https://www.apache.org/legal/resolved.html#category-x
> >> >> <https://www.apache.org/legal/resolved.html#category-x>
> >> >>
> >> >> ...
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> Note that the binary also includes the jsearch jar.
> >> >> And while the binary isn't the release itself, if/when a
> convenience
> >> >> binary is provided *then* it needs to be in compliance with
> the
> >> >> distribution rules. So no GPL artifacts allowed.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Yes, NetBeans depends on JavaHelp and JavaHelp has been developed
> under
> >> >> GPLv2 with CP exception. However the last commit has been made
> ten years
> >> >> ago by me or Jesse Glick - e.g. nobody cares about JavaHelp
> anymore.
> >> That
> >> >> means there are no business reasons to keep JavaHelp under GPLv2.
> As
> >> such
> >> >> we are trying to convince Oracle to relicense JavaHelp and
> release it
> >> under
> >> >> more Apache friendly license. toThere are at least two good
> reasons to
> >> do
> >> >> it:
> >> >>
> >> >> #1 - simplify NetBeans Apache incubation
> >> >> #2 - simplify acceptance of JavaEE into Eclipse Foundation (yes,
> JavaEE
> >> >> also needs JavaHelp for some reason)
> >> >>
> >> >> While we saw a bit of resistance when we used #1 as argument for
> >> >> re-licensing JavaHelp, things started to change when #2 issue
> showed
> >> up. As
> >> >> such we believe that the JavaHelp licensing issue will be
> resolved soon
> >> >> (measuring that in the glacier speed changes are happening in
> Oracle).
> >> In
> >> >> any case I believe in a year or two we can expected JavaHelp with
> a
> >> >> friendly license.
> >> >>
> >> >> Btw. there already is https://github.com/javaee/javahelp with
> CDDL
> >> >> license. A proof the JavaEE guys are solving the same problem.
> Maybe we
> >> can
> >> >> just use JavaHelp from that source and our GPL problems are gone.
> >> >>
> >> > Seems like a, or even the, direction to solve this.
> >> > If those 'JavaEE guys' can be persuaded to tag/release soon, then
> yes,
> >> > Netbeans can use (externally depend on) that JavaHelp version
> under the
> >> > CDDL license.
> >> > So I suggest start persuading them :-)
> >> >
> >> > In any case I don't think we need urgent surgery/lobotomy for 1st
> >> NetBeans
> >> >> Alpha (incubating) release. It may be wiser to wait until the
> problem
> >> >> solves itself >
> >> >> All I am asking: Please give JavaHelp a chance!
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > Well, as long as there is no alternative under an acceptable
> license,
> >> > the GPL license remains a blocker IMO to include the current
> version.
> >> >
> >>
> >> Just to be sure: it is OK to build against a GPL library, right?
> (Having it
> >> optional at runtime.) We can strip the jsearch.jar for now, that's
> not that
> >> big deal IMO (I can do that tonight, but not right now). But we have
> a
> >> different version of JavaHelp against which we compile the NetBeans
> help;
> >> and we have some more GPL libraries against which it would be much
> easier
> >> to compile.
> >>
> >> Jan
> >>
> >>
> >> > Unless, we can get an explicit exception for the restriction from
> the
> >> > Apache Legal Committee.
> >> > Which is not impossible but needs to be asked first, e.g. needs
> creating
> >> > a https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL ticket with the
> clear
> >> > use-case and explanation of what we need here.
> >> >
> >> > Ate
> >> >
> >> > -jt
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >>
Re: Give JavaHelp a chance! was: Release Apache NetBeans 9.0 Alpha (incubating)
Posted by Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@googlemail.com>.
My understanding was that we're excluding JavaHelp for Apache NetBeans 9.0
Alpha:
https://github.com/apache/incubator-netbeans/pull/249
Hense, jsearch should be excluded too, I believe.
Thanks,
Gj
On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 12:38 PM, Antonio Vieiro <an...@vieiro.net> wrote:
> So, what about using DocBook Web Help [1]? After all nowadays all
> users have a web browser, don't they?
>
> They even have a maven plugin[2]. This is BSD licensed. The results
> [3] look acceptable to me.
>
> We could even try to fork the project (maybe it's unmaintained)?
>
> Cheers,
> Antonio
>
> [1] http://blog.kasunbg.org/2010/08/docbook-webhelp-project.html
> [2] http://docbkx-tools.sourceforge.net/docbkx-samples/manual.html
> [3] http://docbook.sourceforge.net/release/xsl/current/
> webhelp/docs/index.html
>
> 2017-11-08 12:19 GMT+01:00 Geertjan Wielenga <
> geertjan.wielenga@googlemail.com>:
> > Here's the issue relating to JavaHelp, would be best to track/document
> > everything there:
> >
> > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/NETBEANS-3
> >
> > Gj
> >
> > On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 11:26 AM, Jan Lahoda <la...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 10:40 AM, Ate Douma <at...@douma.nu> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On 2017-11-08 09:52, Jaroslav Tulach wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Hello Ate,
> >> >> thanks for trying the NetBeans Platform 9.0 Alpha bits.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> > And that still has status "To do". Furthermore, it depends on the
> >> *GPL*
> >> >>
> >> >> external jsearch-2.0_05.jar which is a no-go... for the ASF.
> >> >> See: https://www.apache.org/legal/resolved.html#category-x
> >> >> <https://www.apache.org/legal/resolved.html#category-x>
> >> >>
> >> >> ...
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> Note that the binary also includes the jsearch jar.
> >> >> And while the binary isn't the release itself, if/when a
> convenience
> >> >> binary is provided *then* it needs to be in compliance with the
> >> >> distribution rules. So no GPL artifacts allowed.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Yes, NetBeans depends on JavaHelp and JavaHelp has been developed
> under
> >> >> GPLv2 with CP exception. However the last commit has been made ten
> years
> >> >> ago by me or Jesse Glick - e.g. nobody cares about JavaHelp anymore.
> >> That
> >> >> means there are no business reasons to keep JavaHelp under GPLv2. As
> >> such
> >> >> we are trying to convince Oracle to relicense JavaHelp and release it
> >> under
> >> >> more Apache friendly license. toThere are at least two good reasons
> to
> >> do
> >> >> it:
> >> >>
> >> >> #1 - simplify NetBeans Apache incubation
> >> >> #2 - simplify acceptance of JavaEE into Eclipse Foundation (yes,
> JavaEE
> >> >> also needs JavaHelp for some reason)
> >> >>
> >> >> While we saw a bit of resistance when we used #1 as argument for
> >> >> re-licensing JavaHelp, things started to change when #2 issue showed
> >> up. As
> >> >> such we believe that the JavaHelp licensing issue will be resolved
> soon
> >> >> (measuring that in the glacier speed changes are happening in
> Oracle).
> >> In
> >> >> any case I believe in a year or two we can expected JavaHelp with a
> >> >> friendly license.
> >> >>
> >> >> Btw. there already is https://github.com/javaee/javahelp with CDDL
> >> >> license. A proof the JavaEE guys are solving the same problem. Maybe
> we
> >> can
> >> >> just use JavaHelp from that source and our GPL problems are gone.
> >> >>
> >> > Seems like a, or even the, direction to solve this.
> >> > If those 'JavaEE guys' can be persuaded to tag/release soon, then yes,
> >> > Netbeans can use (externally depend on) that JavaHelp version under
> the
> >> > CDDL license.
> >> > So I suggest start persuading them :-)
> >> >
> >> > In any case I don't think we need urgent surgery/lobotomy for 1st
> >> NetBeans
> >> >> Alpha (incubating) release. It may be wiser to wait until the problem
> >> >> solves itself >
> >> >> All I am asking: Please give JavaHelp a chance!
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > Well, as long as there is no alternative under an acceptable license,
> >> > the GPL license remains a blocker IMO to include the current version.
> >> >
> >>
> >> Just to be sure: it is OK to build against a GPL library, right?
> (Having it
> >> optional at runtime.) We can strip the jsearch.jar for now, that's not
> that
> >> big deal IMO (I can do that tonight, but not right now). But we have a
> >> different version of JavaHelp against which we compile the NetBeans
> help;
> >> and we have some more GPL libraries against which it would be much
> easier
> >> to compile.
> >>
> >> Jan
> >>
> >>
> >> > Unless, we can get an explicit exception for the restriction from the
> >> > Apache Legal Committee.
> >> > Which is not impossible but needs to be asked first, e.g. needs
> creating
> >> > a https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL ticket with the clear
> >> > use-case and explanation of what we need here.
> >> >
> >> > Ate
> >> >
> >> > -jt
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >>
>
Re: Give JavaHelp a chance! was: Release Apache NetBeans 9.0 Alpha (incubating)
Posted by Antonio Vieiro <an...@vieiro.net>.
So, what about using DocBook Web Help [1]? After all nowadays all
users have a web browser, don't they?
They even have a maven plugin[2]. This is BSD licensed. The results
[3] look acceptable to me.
We could even try to fork the project (maybe it's unmaintained)?
Cheers,
Antonio
[1] http://blog.kasunbg.org/2010/08/docbook-webhelp-project.html
[2] http://docbkx-tools.sourceforge.net/docbkx-samples/manual.html
[3] http://docbook.sourceforge.net/release/xsl/current/webhelp/docs/index.html
2017-11-08 12:19 GMT+01:00 Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@googlemail.com>:
> Here's the issue relating to JavaHelp, would be best to track/document
> everything there:
>
> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/NETBEANS-3
>
> Gj
>
> On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 11:26 AM, Jan Lahoda <la...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 10:40 AM, Ate Douma <at...@douma.nu> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >
>> > On 2017-11-08 09:52, Jaroslav Tulach wrote:
>> >
>> >> Hello Ate,
>> >> thanks for trying the NetBeans Platform 9.0 Alpha bits.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > And that still has status "To do". Furthermore, it depends on the
>> *GPL*
>> >>
>> >> external jsearch-2.0_05.jar which is a no-go... for the ASF.
>> >> See: https://www.apache.org/legal/resolved.html#category-x
>> >> <https://www.apache.org/legal/resolved.html#category-x>
>> >>
>> >> ...
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> Note that the binary also includes the jsearch jar.
>> >> And while the binary isn't the release itself, if/when a convenience
>> >> binary is provided *then* it needs to be in compliance with the
>> >> distribution rules. So no GPL artifacts allowed.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Yes, NetBeans depends on JavaHelp and JavaHelp has been developed under
>> >> GPLv2 with CP exception. However the last commit has been made ten years
>> >> ago by me or Jesse Glick - e.g. nobody cares about JavaHelp anymore.
>> That
>> >> means there are no business reasons to keep JavaHelp under GPLv2. As
>> such
>> >> we are trying to convince Oracle to relicense JavaHelp and release it
>> under
>> >> more Apache friendly license. toThere are at least two good reasons to
>> do
>> >> it:
>> >>
>> >> #1 - simplify NetBeans Apache incubation
>> >> #2 - simplify acceptance of JavaEE into Eclipse Foundation (yes, JavaEE
>> >> also needs JavaHelp for some reason)
>> >>
>> >> While we saw a bit of resistance when we used #1 as argument for
>> >> re-licensing JavaHelp, things started to change when #2 issue showed
>> up. As
>> >> such we believe that the JavaHelp licensing issue will be resolved soon
>> >> (measuring that in the glacier speed changes are happening in Oracle).
>> In
>> >> any case I believe in a year or two we can expected JavaHelp with a
>> >> friendly license.
>> >>
>> >> Btw. there already is https://github.com/javaee/javahelp with CDDL
>> >> license. A proof the JavaEE guys are solving the same problem. Maybe we
>> can
>> >> just use JavaHelp from that source and our GPL problems are gone.
>> >>
>> > Seems like a, or even the, direction to solve this.
>> > If those 'JavaEE guys' can be persuaded to tag/release soon, then yes,
>> > Netbeans can use (externally depend on) that JavaHelp version under the
>> > CDDL license.
>> > So I suggest start persuading them :-)
>> >
>> > In any case I don't think we need urgent surgery/lobotomy for 1st
>> NetBeans
>> >> Alpha (incubating) release. It may be wiser to wait until the problem
>> >> solves itself >
>> >> All I am asking: Please give JavaHelp a chance!
>> >>
>> >
>> > Well, as long as there is no alternative under an acceptable license,
>> > the GPL license remains a blocker IMO to include the current version.
>> >
>>
>> Just to be sure: it is OK to build against a GPL library, right? (Having it
>> optional at runtime.) We can strip the jsearch.jar for now, that's not that
>> big deal IMO (I can do that tonight, but not right now). But we have a
>> different version of JavaHelp against which we compile the NetBeans help;
>> and we have some more GPL libraries against which it would be much easier
>> to compile.
>>
>> Jan
>>
>>
>> > Unless, we can get an explicit exception for the restriction from the
>> > Apache Legal Committee.
>> > Which is not impossible but needs to be asked first, e.g. needs creating
>> > a https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL ticket with the clear
>> > use-case and explanation of what we need here.
>> >
>> > Ate
>> >
>> > -jt
>> >>
>> >>
>>
Re: Give JavaHelp a chance! was: Release Apache NetBeans 9.0 Alpha (incubating)
Posted by Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@googlemail.com>.
Here's the issue relating to JavaHelp, would be best to track/document
everything there:
https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/NETBEANS-3
Gj
On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 11:26 AM, Jan Lahoda <la...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 10:40 AM, Ate Douma <at...@douma.nu> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > On 2017-11-08 09:52, Jaroslav Tulach wrote:
> >
> >> Hello Ate,
> >> thanks for trying the NetBeans Platform 9.0 Alpha bits.
> >>
> >>
> >> > And that still has status "To do". Furthermore, it depends on the
> *GPL*
> >>
> >> external jsearch-2.0_05.jar which is a no-go... for the ASF.
> >> See: https://www.apache.org/legal/resolved.html#category-x
> >> <https://www.apache.org/legal/resolved.html#category-x>
> >>
> >> ...
> >> >
> >>
> >> Note that the binary also includes the jsearch jar.
> >> And while the binary isn't the release itself, if/when a convenience
> >> binary is provided *then* it needs to be in compliance with the
> >> distribution rules. So no GPL artifacts allowed.
> >>
> >>
> >> Yes, NetBeans depends on JavaHelp and JavaHelp has been developed under
> >> GPLv2 with CP exception. However the last commit has been made ten years
> >> ago by me or Jesse Glick - e.g. nobody cares about JavaHelp anymore.
> That
> >> means there are no business reasons to keep JavaHelp under GPLv2. As
> such
> >> we are trying to convince Oracle to relicense JavaHelp and release it
> under
> >> more Apache friendly license. toThere are at least two good reasons to
> do
> >> it:
> >>
> >> #1 - simplify NetBeans Apache incubation
> >> #2 - simplify acceptance of JavaEE into Eclipse Foundation (yes, JavaEE
> >> also needs JavaHelp for some reason)
> >>
> >> While we saw a bit of resistance when we used #1 as argument for
> >> re-licensing JavaHelp, things started to change when #2 issue showed
> up. As
> >> such we believe that the JavaHelp licensing issue will be resolved soon
> >> (measuring that in the glacier speed changes are happening in Oracle).
> In
> >> any case I believe in a year or two we can expected JavaHelp with a
> >> friendly license.
> >>
> >> Btw. there already is https://github.com/javaee/javahelp with CDDL
> >> license. A proof the JavaEE guys are solving the same problem. Maybe we
> can
> >> just use JavaHelp from that source and our GPL problems are gone.
> >>
> > Seems like a, or even the, direction to solve this.
> > If those 'JavaEE guys' can be persuaded to tag/release soon, then yes,
> > Netbeans can use (externally depend on) that JavaHelp version under the
> > CDDL license.
> > So I suggest start persuading them :-)
> >
> > In any case I don't think we need urgent surgery/lobotomy for 1st
> NetBeans
> >> Alpha (incubating) release. It may be wiser to wait until the problem
> >> solves itself >
> >> All I am asking: Please give JavaHelp a chance!
> >>
> >
> > Well, as long as there is no alternative under an acceptable license,
> > the GPL license remains a blocker IMO to include the current version.
> >
>
> Just to be sure: it is OK to build against a GPL library, right? (Having it
> optional at runtime.) We can strip the jsearch.jar for now, that's not that
> big deal IMO (I can do that tonight, but not right now). But we have a
> different version of JavaHelp against which we compile the NetBeans help;
> and we have some more GPL libraries against which it would be much easier
> to compile.
>
> Jan
>
>
> > Unless, we can get an explicit exception for the restriction from the
> > Apache Legal Committee.
> > Which is not impossible but needs to be asked first, e.g. needs creating
> > a https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL ticket with the clear
> > use-case and explanation of what we need here.
> >
> > Ate
> >
> > -jt
> >>
> >>
>
Re: Give JavaHelp a chance! was: Release Apache NetBeans 9.0 Alpha (incubating)
Posted by Jan Lahoda <la...@gmail.com>.
On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 10:40 AM, Ate Douma <at...@douma.nu> wrote:
>
>
> On 2017-11-08 09:52, Jaroslav Tulach wrote:
>
>> Hello Ate,
>> thanks for trying the NetBeans Platform 9.0 Alpha bits.
>>
>>
>> > And that still has status "To do". Furthermore, it depends on the *GPL*
>>
>> external jsearch-2.0_05.jar which is a no-go... for the ASF.
>> See: https://www.apache.org/legal/resolved.html#category-x
>> <https://www.apache.org/legal/resolved.html#category-x>
>>
>> ...
>> >
>>
>> Note that the binary also includes the jsearch jar.
>> And while the binary isn't the release itself, if/when a convenience
>> binary is provided *then* it needs to be in compliance with the
>> distribution rules. So no GPL artifacts allowed.
>>
>>
>> Yes, NetBeans depends on JavaHelp and JavaHelp has been developed under
>> GPLv2 with CP exception. However the last commit has been made ten years
>> ago by me or Jesse Glick - e.g. nobody cares about JavaHelp anymore. That
>> means there are no business reasons to keep JavaHelp under GPLv2. As such
>> we are trying to convince Oracle to relicense JavaHelp and release it under
>> more Apache friendly license. toThere are at least two good reasons to do
>> it:
>>
>> #1 - simplify NetBeans Apache incubation
>> #2 - simplify acceptance of JavaEE into Eclipse Foundation (yes, JavaEE
>> also needs JavaHelp for some reason)
>>
>> While we saw a bit of resistance when we used #1 as argument for
>> re-licensing JavaHelp, things started to change when #2 issue showed up. As
>> such we believe that the JavaHelp licensing issue will be resolved soon
>> (measuring that in the glacier speed changes are happening in Oracle). In
>> any case I believe in a year or two we can expected JavaHelp with a
>> friendly license.
>>
>> Btw. there already is https://github.com/javaee/javahelp with CDDL
>> license. A proof the JavaEE guys are solving the same problem. Maybe we can
>> just use JavaHelp from that source and our GPL problems are gone.
>>
> Seems like a, or even the, direction to solve this.
> If those 'JavaEE guys' can be persuaded to tag/release soon, then yes,
> Netbeans can use (externally depend on) that JavaHelp version under the
> CDDL license.
> So I suggest start persuading them :-)
>
> In any case I don't think we need urgent surgery/lobotomy for 1st NetBeans
>> Alpha (incubating) release. It may be wiser to wait until the problem
>> solves itself >
>> All I am asking: Please give JavaHelp a chance!
>>
>
> Well, as long as there is no alternative under an acceptable license,
> the GPL license remains a blocker IMO to include the current version.
>
Just to be sure: it is OK to build against a GPL library, right? (Having it
optional at runtime.) We can strip the jsearch.jar for now, that's not that
big deal IMO (I can do that tonight, but not right now). But we have a
different version of JavaHelp against which we compile the NetBeans help;
and we have some more GPL libraries against which it would be much easier
to compile.
Jan
> Unless, we can get an explicit exception for the restriction from the
> Apache Legal Committee.
> Which is not impossible but needs to be asked first, e.g. needs creating
> a https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL ticket with the clear
> use-case and explanation of what we need here.
>
> Ate
>
> -jt
>>
>>
Re: Give JavaHelp a chance! was: Release Apache NetBeans 9.0 Alpha
(incubating)
Posted by Ate Douma <at...@douma.nu>.
On 2017-11-08 09:52, Jaroslav Tulach wrote:
> Hello Ate,
> thanks for trying the NetBeans Platform 9.0 Alpha bits.
>
>
> > And that still has status "To do". Furthermore, it depends on the *GPL*
>
> external jsearch-2.0_05.jar which is a no-go... for the ASF.
> See: https://www.apache.org/legal/resolved.html#category-x
> <https://www.apache.org/legal/resolved.html#category-x>
>
> ...
>
> >
>
> Note that the binary also includes the jsearch jar.
> And while the binary isn't the release itself, if/when a convenience
> binary is provided *then* it needs to be in compliance with the
> distribution rules. So no GPL artifacts allowed.
>
>
> Yes, NetBeans depends on JavaHelp and JavaHelp has been developed under
> GPLv2 with CP exception. However the last commit has been made ten years
> ago by me or Jesse Glick - e.g. nobody cares about JavaHelp anymore.
> That means there are no business reasons to keep JavaHelp under GPLv2.
> As such we are trying to convince Oracle to relicense JavaHelp and
> release it under more Apache friendly license. toThere are at least two
> good reasons to do it:
>
> #1 - simplify NetBeans Apache incubation
> #2 - simplify acceptance of JavaEE into Eclipse Foundation (yes, JavaEE
> also needs JavaHelp for some reason)
>
> While we saw a bit of resistance when we used #1 as argument for
> re-licensing JavaHelp, things started to change when #2 issue showed up.
> As such we believe that the JavaHelp licensing issue will be resolved
> soon (measuring that in the glacier speed changes are happening in
> Oracle). In any case I believe in a year or two we can expected JavaHelp
> with a friendly license.
>
> Btw. there already is https://github.com/javaee/javahelp with CDDL
> license. A proof the JavaEE guys are solving the same problem. Maybe we
> can just use JavaHelp from that source and our GPL problems are gone.
Seems like a, or even the, direction to solve this.
If those 'JavaEE guys' can be persuaded to tag/release soon, then yes,
Netbeans can use (externally depend on) that JavaHelp version under the
CDDL license.
So I suggest start persuading them :-)
> In
> any case I don't think we need urgent surgery/lobotomy for 1st NetBeans
> Alpha (incubating) release. It may be wiser to wait until the problem
> solves itself >
> All I am asking: Please give JavaHelp a chance!
Well, as long as there is no alternative under an acceptable license,
the GPL license remains a blocker IMO to include the current version.
Unless, we can get an explicit exception for the restriction from the
Apache Legal Committee.
Which is not impossible but needs to be asked first, e.g. needs creating
a https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL ticket with the clear
use-case and explanation of what we need here.
Ate
> -jt
>
Re: Give JavaHelp a chance! was: Release Apache NetBeans 9.0 Alpha (incubating)
Posted by Emilian Bold <em...@protonmail.ch>.
> All I am asking: Please give JavaHelp a chance!
I believe we might figure this out and get JavaHelp under a CDDL license, ie. something Apache-compatible.
That being said, JavaHelp seems to be even more ignored than Swing, so it's not a really great library to push forward for ourselves or our Platform users.
It would be simpler to just put the help online or as an HTML .zip download, kinda like javadoc, and use the (external) browser to access it.
--emi
>-------- Original Message --------
>Subject: Give JavaHelp a chance! was: Release Apache NetBeans 9.0 Alpha (incubating)
>Local Time: November 8, 2017 10:52 AM
>UTC Time: November 8, 2017 8:52 AM
>From: jaroslav.tulach@gmail.com
>To: dev@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
>Ate Douma <at...@douma.nu>
>
>Hello Ate,
> thanks for trying the NetBeans Platform 9.0 Alpha bits.
>
>>And that still has status "To do". Furthermore, it depends on the GPL
>>
>> external jsearch-2.0_05.jar which is a no-go... for the ASF.
>> See: https://www.apache.org/legal/resolved.html#category-x
>>...
>>
>>Note that the binary also includes the jsearch jar.
>> And while the binary isn't the release itself, if/when a convenience
>> binary is provided then it needs to be in compliance with the
>> distribution rules. So no GPL artifacts allowed.
>>Yes, NetBeans depends on JavaHelp and JavaHelp has been developed under
> GPLv2 with CP exception. However the last commit has been made ten years
> ago by me or Jesse Glick - e.g. nobody cares about JavaHelp anymore. That
> means there are no business reasons to keep JavaHelp under GPLv2. As such
> we are trying to convince Oracle to relicense JavaHelp and release it under
> more Apache friendly license. toThere are at least two good reasons to do
> it:
>
> #1 - simplify NetBeans Apache incubation
> #2 - simplify acceptance of JavaEE into Eclipse Foundation (yes, JavaEE
> also needs JavaHelp for some reason)
>
> While we saw a bit of resistance when we used #1 as argument for
> re-licensing JavaHelp, things started to change when #2 issue showed up. As
> such we believe that the JavaHelp licensing issue will be resolved soon
> (measuring that in the glacier speed changes are happening in Oracle). In
> any case I believe in a year or two we can expected JavaHelp with a
> friendly license.
>
> Btw. there already is https://github.com/javaee/javahelp with CDDL license.
> A proof the JavaEE guys are solving the same problem. Maybe we can just use
> JavaHelp from that source and our GPL problems are gone. In any case I
> don't think we need urgent surgery/lobotomy for 1st NetBeans Alpha
> (incubating) release. It may be wiser to wait until the problem solves
> itself.
>
> All I am asking: Please give JavaHelp a chance!
> -jt
>