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Posted to general@incubator.apache.org by Daniel Gruno <hu...@apache.org> on 2016/05/19 18:55:43 UTC
[PROPOSAL] Pony Mail
Hi again folks,
I would formally like to open up a discussion on the following proposal
for the Apache Incubator:
Pretty version can be found at:
https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/PonyMailProposal
text-only version follows:
################################
Abstract
Pony Mail is a mail-archiving, archive viewing, and interaction service,
that can be integrated with many email platforms.
Proposal
Background
Pony Mail began as a response to two things; the lack of diversity in
mailing list archives that are less bureaucratic all-or-nothing and more
fluid way to interact with mailing lists than what is typically offered,
and the lack of a performant system that solves this issue. Modern users
of software want to jump right into a discussion they see, but cannot
normally do so in a mailing list driven environment because of the rules
generally surrounding said environment. Pony Mail, along with a select
handful of newer archive systems, provides an interface that allows
people to just hop into a thread, and take part. Without the need to
subscribe, download the mbox archive, load it into your MTA, and
respond.
As Rich writes in a very short essay:
You see a thread in which someone is WRONG ON THE INTERNET! You need to
correct them. How do you do this today? You kinda don't. If you really
wanted, you could download mbox files (and who the hell knows where they
are?) and then try to get them into your mail client (which never works)
and then reply to it. Which will break threading, because you did
something wrong. Then you tear out your hair. PONY MAIL TO THE RESCUE!!!
(sound of hoof beats)
Rationale
One of the oft-heard complaints about Apache's development model is that
mailing lists are an old person's tool, and web-based communication -
forums - are the way to go in the 21st Century. Providing a
full-featured forum-like interface to mailing lists is one goal,while
keeping all of the enormous benefits that mailing lists already provide.
Asecond goal is to provide the ability to "jump in" to a mailing list
conversation - even one that was a while back, without the convolutions
that a mailing list requires. That is, to join this conversation the old
way, one would have had to subscribe to the mailing list, download an
mbox, and import it into ones mail client, in order that I be able to
reply to this message with correct threading. With Pony Mail, one has to
do none of those things, but can simply reply using the Web UI. To us,
this is a HUGE benefit for building community. The requirement to jump
through hoops to join a mailing list conversation drives away a lot of
people (at least, anecdotally, it does) and if we can remove that
barrier I think we'll have an easier time of drawing a new generation
into our projects.
Initial Goals
The initial goals of transitioning to the ASF is to expand and grow both
the Pony codebase and community, and ensure the project's continued
growth and stability through forming a diverse and reliable community,
in which the various facets of developers and contributors help keep the
project up to date with latest developments and technical as well as
social needs.
Current Status
Meritocracy:
The bulk of the code has been written by Daniel Gruno to date, but has
had oversight from other committers, and mentors.
All members of the Pony project and wider community have a deep
understanding and appreciation for the ASF meritocracy ideals, and
are almost solely current ASF Members.
Community:
The community is currently heavily focused within the ASF, and
more specifically the Infrastructure group. This is to be
expected given the nature of how the code came into existence in
the first place. It should be noted that we have started
reaching out to other groups who we know are using mailing list
systems and therefore also rely on mailing list archive
interfaces.
Core Developers:
Almost all core developers are ASF members, and are already
intimately familiar with the Apache Way.
Alignment:
Pony will be very in line with ASF practices and processes as
many of the founding members are long term ASF members and
committers.
Known Risks
Orphaned products:
We are not aware of any issues with orphaned products related to
this project. Pony Mail relies on a set of CSS3 templates as
well as some very stable programming languages. We have no
reason to believe these would be orphaned or, should they become
orphaned, that it would impact the development of the project.
Inexperience with Open Source:
Most of the current committers are already ASF members and
committers, we do not believe there to be any concerns around
OSS inexperience.
Homogenous Developers:
While the current mix of people involved in the project spans
several continents with a wide variety of skills and experience,
a long standing relation with the ASF applies to all committers
(even the non-ASF people in this proposal are intimately
familiar with the ASF), and we believe there to be a very
homogeneous culture in terms of development, IP and release
processes.
Reliance on Salaried Developers:
While two of the committers in this project are salaried
developers with regards to Pony, the project was founded outside
of corporate interests, and is primarily driven by people either
working for or with ties to non-profit organisations. We see no
issues regarding possible strong-arming or otherwise skewing
project focus, nor do we believe that absence of salaries would
deter people from committing to this project.
Relationships with Other Apache Products:
Pony Mail uses at least Apache HTTPd with mod_lua as its
end-user facing delivery mechanism. Many of the commiters are
also involved with this PMC.
Pony also utilises ElasticSearch which is based on Lucene.
Documentation
Documentation will initially be in the source tree, and be part of
the initial code inclusion.
Initial Source
The initial source was written under the Apache License v/2.0 from
the beginning, and is available at:
https://github.com/Quenda/ponymail
Source and Intellectual Property Submission Plan
We know of no legal encumberments in the way of transfer of source
to Apache. Portions of the software (sans dependencies) is already
owned by the ASF, other portions privately, but it will be granted
to the ASF in its entirety.
External Dependencies:
ElasticSearch backend (Apache License v/2.0)
Apache HTTP Server front-end with mod_lua loaded (Apache License
v/2.0 for httpd, MIT for Lua)
Python 3.x for importing/archiving (PSF License)
Lua 5.1 or 5.2 + lua-cjson (MIT License, lua-cjson is optional)
Bootstrap/JQuery (MIT License)
Cryptography:
Pony employs no cryptography other than what TLS-enabled web sites
served by HTTPd might use.
Required Resources:
Mailing lists: It would be rude not too, given this project should
archive them.
Subversion Directory: Nope
Git Repositories:
- incubator-ponymail.git - incubator-ponymail-site.git
Issue Tracking: JIRA or GitHub Issues
Other Resources: Dev stack, PoC Stack, HipChat Channel
Initial Committers
- Daniel Gruno < humbedooh@apache.org >
- Tony Stevenson < pctony@apache.org >
- Richard Bowen < rbowen@apache.org >
- Ulises Beresi < ulises.cervino@gmail.com >
- David P Kendal < apache@dpk.io >
- Francesco Chicchiricc� - < ilgrosso@apache.org >
Affiliations
Daniel Gruno - Quenda IvS
Tony Stevenson - pctony ltd, VocalIQ Ltd
Richard Bowen - Redhat, inc.
Ulises Beresi - Datastax, inc.
David P Kendal - Quenda IvS
Francesco Chicchiricc� - Tirasa S.r.l.
Sponsors
Champion: Suneel Marthi < smarthi@apache.org >
Nominated Mentors:
Andrew Bayer < abayer@apache.org >
Sponsoring Entity:
The Apache Software Foundation
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Pony Mail
Posted by Daniel Gruno <hu...@apache.org>.
On 05/21/2016 12:45 AM, John D. Ament wrote:
>
> It does very clearly.
>
> If you're looking for more mentors, I'd be happy to help (we recommend 3
> mentors for a podling). Granted most of the proposed PPMC qualify as
> mentors as well.
You are most welcome to add your name to the proposal :)
My computer decided to wipe all browser cookies (yay!), so I'm a bit
slow to get back on all the sites at the moment, adding yourself would
be faster.
With regards,
Daniel.
>
> I'd also be interested in helping out, I know quite a bit about
> elasticsearch, can do some UI, and would be interested in picking up more
> lua and python.
>
> John
>
>
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Pony Mail
Posted by "John D. Ament" <jo...@apache.org>.
On Thu, May 19, 2016 at 10:40 PM Daniel Gruno <hu...@apache.org> wrote:
> On 05/20/2016 04:26 AM, John D. Ament wrote:
> > Daniel,
> >
> > I'm a bit curious, what does the proposed plan to gain by going through
> > incubation, instead of becoming a TLP directly?
> >
> > Is it the community diversity aspects, to bring in non-infra team members
> > on to the code base?
>
> I would not feel comfortable bringing a project straight to TLP when a
> portion of the initial members of the community have had no experience
> whatsoever with the Apache Way before. What is listed is the bare bones
> group of people who have worked on Pony Mail in one way or the other (I
> should probably add Sam Ruby to that list), there are other peripheral
> people who are curious but also have no experience with Apache.
>
> I would love to use incubation as a way to grow a larger community,
> teach the non-hardcore-ASF people how we do things around here, AND also
> myself learn some more about what the various processes entail. We don't
> really have anyone experienced with releasing code under the ASF banner
> (I've never done that myself), and having the Incubator vet our
> processes and end results would be a great help. There is - to me- so
> much more under the Incubator umbrella that would prove helpful to us
> than if we tried to go straight to TLP.
>
> Furthermore, I feel that incubation is a better (faster?) way to attract
> new contributors in the startup phase of a project. There's more of a
> "let's get cracking on making something awesome!" feeling about it, in
> my view.
>
> Lastly, there are issues like branding etc which is more easily solved
> as a podling.
>
> I hope this has answered your question.
>
It does very clearly.
If you're looking for more mentors, I'd be happy to help (we recommend 3
mentors for a podling). Granted most of the proposed PPMC qualify as
mentors as well.
I'd also be interested in helping out, I know quite a bit about
elasticsearch, can do some UI, and would be interested in picking up more
lua and python.
John
>
> With regards,
> Daniel.
>
> >
> > John
> >
> > On Thu, May 19, 2016 at 2:55 PM Daniel Gruno <hu...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi again folks,
> >> I would formally like to open up a discussion on the following proposal
> >> for the Apache Incubator:
> >>
> >> Pretty version can be found at:
> >> https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/PonyMailProposal
> >>
> >>
> >> text-only version follows:
> >> ################################
> >>
> >> Abstract
> >>
> >> Pony Mail is a mail-archiving, archive viewing, and interaction service,
> >> that can be integrated with many email platforms.
> >>
> >> Proposal
> >>
> >> Background
> >>
> >> Pony Mail began as a response to two things; the lack of diversity in
> >> mailing list archives that are less bureaucratic all-or-nothing and more
> >> fluid way to interact with mailing lists than what is typically offered,
> >> and the lack of a performant system that solves this issue. Modern users
> >> of software want to jump right into a discussion they see, but cannot
> >> normally do so in a mailing list driven environment because of the rules
> >> generally surrounding said environment. Pony Mail, along with a select
> >> handful of newer archive systems, provides an interface that allows
> >> people to just hop into a thread, and take part. Without the need to
> >> subscribe, download the mbox archive, load it into your MTA, and
> >> respond.
> >>
> >> As Rich writes in a very short essay:
> >>
> >> You see a thread in which someone is WRONG ON THE INTERNET! You need to
> >> correct them. How do you do this today? You kinda don't. If you really
> >> wanted, you could download mbox files (and who the hell knows where they
> >> are?) and then try to get them into your mail client (which never works)
> >> and then reply to it. Which will break threading, because you did
> >> something wrong. Then you tear out your hair. PONY MAIL TO THE RESCUE!!!
> >> (sound of hoof beats)
> >>
> >> Rationale
> >>
> >> One of the oft-heard complaints about Apache's development model is that
> >> mailing lists are an old person's tool, and web-based communication -
> >> forums - are the way to go in the 21st Century. Providing a
> >> full-featured forum-like interface to mailing lists is one goal,while
> >> keeping all of the enormous benefits that mailing lists already provide.
> >> Asecond goal is to provide the ability to "jump in" to a mailing list
> >> conversation - even one that was a while back, without the convolutions
> >> that a mailing list requires. That is, to join this conversation the old
> >> way, one would have had to subscribe to the mailing list, download an
> >> mbox, and import it into ones mail client, in order that I be able to
> >> reply to this message with correct threading. With Pony Mail, one has to
> >> do none of those things, but can simply reply using the Web UI. To us,
> >> this is a HUGE benefit for building community. The requirement to jump
> >> through hoops to join a mailing list conversation drives away a lot of
> >> people (at least, anecdotally, it does) and if we can remove that
> >> barrier I think we'll have an easier time of drawing a new generation
> >> into our projects.
> >>
> >> Initial Goals
> >>
> >> The initial goals of transitioning to the ASF is to expand and grow both
> >> the Pony codebase and community, and ensure the project's continued
> >> growth and stability through forming a diverse and reliable community,
> >> in which the various facets of developers and contributors help keep the
> >> project up to date with latest developments and technical as well as
> >> social needs.
> >>
> >> Current Status
> >>
> >> Meritocracy:
> >>
> >> The bulk of the code has been written by Daniel Gruno to date, but has
> >> had oversight from other committers, and mentors.
> >>
> >> All members of the Pony project and wider community have a deep
> >> understanding and appreciation for the ASF meritocracy ideals, and
> >> are almost solely current ASF Members.
> >>
> >> Community:
> >> The community is currently heavily focused within the ASF, and
> >> more specifically the Infrastructure group. This is to be
> >> expected given the nature of how the code came into existence in
> >> the first place. It should be noted that we have started
> >> reaching out to other groups who we know are using mailing list
> >> systems and therefore also rely on mailing list archive
> >> interfaces.
> >>
> >> Core Developers:
> >> Almost all core developers are ASF members, and are already
> >> intimately familiar with the Apache Way.
> >>
> >> Alignment:
> >> Pony will be very in line with ASF practices and processes as
> >> many of the founding members are long term ASF members and
> >> committers.
> >>
> >> Known Risks
> >>
> >> Orphaned products:
> >>
> >> We are not aware of any issues with orphaned products related to
> >> this project. Pony Mail relies on a set of CSS3 templates as
> >> well as some very stable programming languages. We have no
> >> reason to believe these would be orphaned or, should they become
> >> orphaned, that it would impact the development of the project.
> >>
> >> Inexperience with Open Source:
> >> Most of the current committers are already ASF members and
> >> committers, we do not believe there to be any concerns around
> >> OSS inexperience.
> >>
> >> Homogenous Developers:
> >> While the current mix of people involved in the project spans
> >> several continents with a wide variety of skills and experience,
> >> a long standing relation with the ASF applies to all committers
> >> (even the non-ASF people in this proposal are intimately
> >> familiar with the ASF), and we believe there to be a very
> >> homogeneous culture in terms of development, IP and release
> >> processes.
> >>
> >> Reliance on Salaried Developers:
> >> While two of the committers in this project are salaried
> >> developers with regards to Pony, the project was founded outside
> >> of corporate interests, and is primarily driven by people either
> >> working for or with ties to non-profit organisations. We see no
> >> issues regarding possible strong-arming or otherwise skewing
> >> project focus, nor do we believe that absence of salaries would
> >> deter people from committing to this project.
> >>
> >> Relationships with Other Apache Products:
> >> Pony Mail uses at least Apache HTTPd with mod_lua as its
> >> end-user facing delivery mechanism. Many of the commiters are
> >> also involved with this PMC.
> >>
> >> Pony also utilises ElasticSearch which is based on Lucene.
> >>
> >> Documentation
> >>
> >> Documentation will initially be in the source tree, and be part of
> >> the initial code inclusion.
> >>
> >> Initial Source
> >>
> >> The initial source was written under the Apache License v/2.0 from
> >> the beginning, and is available at:
> >>
> >> https://github.com/Quenda/ponymail
> >>
> >> Source and Intellectual Property Submission Plan
> >>
> >> We know of no legal encumberments in the way of transfer of source
> >> to Apache. Portions of the software (sans dependencies) is already
> >> owned by the ASF, other portions privately, but it will be granted
> >> to the ASF in its entirety.
> >>
> >> External Dependencies:
> >>
> >> ElasticSearch backend (Apache License v/2.0)
> >> Apache HTTP Server front-end with mod_lua loaded (Apache License
> >> v/2.0 for httpd, MIT for Lua)
> >> Python 3.x for importing/archiving (PSF License)
> >> Lua 5.1 or 5.2 + lua-cjson (MIT License, lua-cjson is optional)
> >> Bootstrap/JQuery (MIT License)
> >>
> >> Cryptography:
> >> Pony employs no cryptography other than what TLS-enabled web sites
> >> served by HTTPd might use.
> >>
> >> Required Resources:
> >>
> >> Mailing lists: It would be rude not too, given this project should
> >> archive them.
> >>
> >> Subversion Directory: Nope
> >>
> >> Git Repositories:
> >> - incubator-ponymail.git - incubator-ponymail-site.git
> >>
> >> Issue Tracking: JIRA or GitHub Issues
> >>
> >> Other Resources: Dev stack, PoC Stack, HipChat Channel
> >>
> >> Initial Committers
> >>
> >> - Daniel Gruno < humbedooh@apache.org >
> >> - Tony Stevenson < pctony@apache.org >
> >> - Richard Bowen < rbowen@apache.org >
> >> - Ulises Beresi < ulises.cervino@gmail.com >
> >> - David P Kendal < apache@dpk.io >
> >> - Francesco Chicchiriccò - < ilgrosso@apache.org >
> >>
> >> Affiliations
> >>
> >> Daniel Gruno - Quenda IvS
> >> Tony Stevenson - pctony ltd, VocalIQ Ltd
> >> Richard Bowen - Redhat, inc.
> >> Ulises Beresi - Datastax, inc.
> >> David P Kendal - Quenda IvS
> >> Francesco Chicchiriccò - Tirasa S.r.l.
> >>
> >> Sponsors
> >>
> >> Champion: Suneel Marthi < smarthi@apache.org >
> >>
> >> Nominated Mentors:
> >> Andrew Bayer < abayer@apache.org >
> >>
> >> Sponsoring Entity:
> >> The Apache Software Foundation
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >>
> >>
> >
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
Re: [PROPOSAL] Pony Mail
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net>.
On Thu, May 19, 2016 at 10:40 PM, Daniel Gruno <hu...@apache.org> wrote:
> On 05/20/2016 04:26 AM, John D. Ament wrote:
>> Daniel,
>>
>> I'm a bit curious, what does the proposed plan to gain by going through
>> incubation, instead of becoming a TLP directly?
>>
>> Is it the community diversity aspects, to bring in non-infra team members
>> on to the code base?
>
> I would not feel comfortable bringing a project straight to TLP when a
> portion of the initial members of the community have had no experience
> whatsoever with the Apache Way before. What is listed is the bare bones
> group of people who have worked on Pony Mail in one way or the other (I
> should probably add Sam Ruby to that list), there are other peripheral
> people who are curious but also have no experience with Apache.
Too late, I've already added myself. :-)
I've already contributed to the code base, have another patch in the
queue, and plan to run this code myself on my own personal email
server.
- Sam Ruby
P.S. I have no particular input on the choice of incubator vs direct
to TLP for this particular codebase.
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Pony Mail
Posted by Daniel Gruno <hu...@apache.org>.
On 05/20/2016 04:26 AM, John D. Ament wrote:
> Daniel,
>
> I'm a bit curious, what does the proposed plan to gain by going through
> incubation, instead of becoming a TLP directly?
>
> Is it the community diversity aspects, to bring in non-infra team members
> on to the code base?
I would not feel comfortable bringing a project straight to TLP when a
portion of the initial members of the community have had no experience
whatsoever with the Apache Way before. What is listed is the bare bones
group of people who have worked on Pony Mail in one way or the other (I
should probably add Sam Ruby to that list), there are other peripheral
people who are curious but also have no experience with Apache.
I would love to use incubation as a way to grow a larger community,
teach the non-hardcore-ASF people how we do things around here, AND also
myself learn some more about what the various processes entail. We don't
really have anyone experienced with releasing code under the ASF banner
(I've never done that myself), and having the Incubator vet our
processes and end results would be a great help. There is - to me- so
much more under the Incubator umbrella that would prove helpful to us
than if we tried to go straight to TLP.
Furthermore, I feel that incubation is a better (faster?) way to attract
new contributors in the startup phase of a project. There's more of a
"let's get cracking on making something awesome!" feeling about it, in
my view.
Lastly, there are issues like branding etc which is more easily solved
as a podling.
I hope this has answered your question.
With regards,
Daniel.
>
> John
>
> On Thu, May 19, 2016 at 2:55 PM Daniel Gruno <hu...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi again folks,
>> I would formally like to open up a discussion on the following proposal
>> for the Apache Incubator:
>>
>> Pretty version can be found at:
>> https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/PonyMailProposal
>>
>>
>> text-only version follows:
>> ################################
>>
>> Abstract
>>
>> Pony Mail is a mail-archiving, archive viewing, and interaction service,
>> that can be integrated with many email platforms.
>>
>> Proposal
>>
>> Background
>>
>> Pony Mail began as a response to two things; the lack of diversity in
>> mailing list archives that are less bureaucratic all-or-nothing and more
>> fluid way to interact with mailing lists than what is typically offered,
>> and the lack of a performant system that solves this issue. Modern users
>> of software want to jump right into a discussion they see, but cannot
>> normally do so in a mailing list driven environment because of the rules
>> generally surrounding said environment. Pony Mail, along with a select
>> handful of newer archive systems, provides an interface that allows
>> people to just hop into a thread, and take part. Without the need to
>> subscribe, download the mbox archive, load it into your MTA, and
>> respond.
>>
>> As Rich writes in a very short essay:
>>
>> You see a thread in which someone is WRONG ON THE INTERNET! You need to
>> correct them. How do you do this today? You kinda don't. If you really
>> wanted, you could download mbox files (and who the hell knows where they
>> are?) and then try to get them into your mail client (which never works)
>> and then reply to it. Which will break threading, because you did
>> something wrong. Then you tear out your hair. PONY MAIL TO THE RESCUE!!!
>> (sound of hoof beats)
>>
>> Rationale
>>
>> One of the oft-heard complaints about Apache's development model is that
>> mailing lists are an old person's tool, and web-based communication -
>> forums - are the way to go in the 21st Century. Providing a
>> full-featured forum-like interface to mailing lists is one goal,while
>> keeping all of the enormous benefits that mailing lists already provide.
>> Asecond goal is to provide the ability to "jump in" to a mailing list
>> conversation - even one that was a while back, without the convolutions
>> that a mailing list requires. That is, to join this conversation the old
>> way, one would have had to subscribe to the mailing list, download an
>> mbox, and import it into ones mail client, in order that I be able to
>> reply to this message with correct threading. With Pony Mail, one has to
>> do none of those things, but can simply reply using the Web UI. To us,
>> this is a HUGE benefit for building community. The requirement to jump
>> through hoops to join a mailing list conversation drives away a lot of
>> people (at least, anecdotally, it does) and if we can remove that
>> barrier I think we'll have an easier time of drawing a new generation
>> into our projects.
>>
>> Initial Goals
>>
>> The initial goals of transitioning to the ASF is to expand and grow both
>> the Pony codebase and community, and ensure the project's continued
>> growth and stability through forming a diverse and reliable community,
>> in which the various facets of developers and contributors help keep the
>> project up to date with latest developments and technical as well as
>> social needs.
>>
>> Current Status
>>
>> Meritocracy:
>>
>> The bulk of the code has been written by Daniel Gruno to date, but has
>> had oversight from other committers, and mentors.
>>
>> All members of the Pony project and wider community have a deep
>> understanding and appreciation for the ASF meritocracy ideals, and
>> are almost solely current ASF Members.
>>
>> Community:
>> The community is currently heavily focused within the ASF, and
>> more specifically the Infrastructure group. This is to be
>> expected given the nature of how the code came into existence in
>> the first place. It should be noted that we have started
>> reaching out to other groups who we know are using mailing list
>> systems and therefore also rely on mailing list archive
>> interfaces.
>>
>> Core Developers:
>> Almost all core developers are ASF members, and are already
>> intimately familiar with the Apache Way.
>>
>> Alignment:
>> Pony will be very in line with ASF practices and processes as
>> many of the founding members are long term ASF members and
>> committers.
>>
>> Known Risks
>>
>> Orphaned products:
>>
>> We are not aware of any issues with orphaned products related to
>> this project. Pony Mail relies on a set of CSS3 templates as
>> well as some very stable programming languages. We have no
>> reason to believe these would be orphaned or, should they become
>> orphaned, that it would impact the development of the project.
>>
>> Inexperience with Open Source:
>> Most of the current committers are already ASF members and
>> committers, we do not believe there to be any concerns around
>> OSS inexperience.
>>
>> Homogenous Developers:
>> While the current mix of people involved in the project spans
>> several continents with a wide variety of skills and experience,
>> a long standing relation with the ASF applies to all committers
>> (even the non-ASF people in this proposal are intimately
>> familiar with the ASF), and we believe there to be a very
>> homogeneous culture in terms of development, IP and release
>> processes.
>>
>> Reliance on Salaried Developers:
>> While two of the committers in this project are salaried
>> developers with regards to Pony, the project was founded outside
>> of corporate interests, and is primarily driven by people either
>> working for or with ties to non-profit organisations. We see no
>> issues regarding possible strong-arming or otherwise skewing
>> project focus, nor do we believe that absence of salaries would
>> deter people from committing to this project.
>>
>> Relationships with Other Apache Products:
>> Pony Mail uses at least Apache HTTPd with mod_lua as its
>> end-user facing delivery mechanism. Many of the commiters are
>> also involved with this PMC.
>>
>> Pony also utilises ElasticSearch which is based on Lucene.
>>
>> Documentation
>>
>> Documentation will initially be in the source tree, and be part of
>> the initial code inclusion.
>>
>> Initial Source
>>
>> The initial source was written under the Apache License v/2.0 from
>> the beginning, and is available at:
>>
>> https://github.com/Quenda/ponymail
>>
>> Source and Intellectual Property Submission Plan
>>
>> We know of no legal encumberments in the way of transfer of source
>> to Apache. Portions of the software (sans dependencies) is already
>> owned by the ASF, other portions privately, but it will be granted
>> to the ASF in its entirety.
>>
>> External Dependencies:
>>
>> ElasticSearch backend (Apache License v/2.0)
>> Apache HTTP Server front-end with mod_lua loaded (Apache License
>> v/2.0 for httpd, MIT for Lua)
>> Python 3.x for importing/archiving (PSF License)
>> Lua 5.1 or 5.2 + lua-cjson (MIT License, lua-cjson is optional)
>> Bootstrap/JQuery (MIT License)
>>
>> Cryptography:
>> Pony employs no cryptography other than what TLS-enabled web sites
>> served by HTTPd might use.
>>
>> Required Resources:
>>
>> Mailing lists: It would be rude not too, given this project should
>> archive them.
>>
>> Subversion Directory: Nope
>>
>> Git Repositories:
>> - incubator-ponymail.git - incubator-ponymail-site.git
>>
>> Issue Tracking: JIRA or GitHub Issues
>>
>> Other Resources: Dev stack, PoC Stack, HipChat Channel
>>
>> Initial Committers
>>
>> - Daniel Gruno < humbedooh@apache.org >
>> - Tony Stevenson < pctony@apache.org >
>> - Richard Bowen < rbowen@apache.org >
>> - Ulises Beresi < ulises.cervino@gmail.com >
>> - David P Kendal < apache@dpk.io >
>> - Francesco Chicchiricc� - < ilgrosso@apache.org >
>>
>> Affiliations
>>
>> Daniel Gruno - Quenda IvS
>> Tony Stevenson - pctony ltd, VocalIQ Ltd
>> Richard Bowen - Redhat, inc.
>> Ulises Beresi - Datastax, inc.
>> David P Kendal - Quenda IvS
>> Francesco Chicchiricc� - Tirasa S.r.l.
>>
>> Sponsors
>>
>> Champion: Suneel Marthi < smarthi@apache.org >
>>
>> Nominated Mentors:
>> Andrew Bayer < abayer@apache.org >
>>
>> Sponsoring Entity:
>> The Apache Software Foundation
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>>
>
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Pony Mail
Posted by "John D. Ament" <jo...@apache.org>.
Daniel,
I'm a bit curious, what does the proposed plan to gain by going through
incubation, instead of becoming a TLP directly?
Is it the community diversity aspects, to bring in non-infra team members
on to the code base?
John
On Thu, May 19, 2016 at 2:55 PM Daniel Gruno <hu...@apache.org> wrote:
> Hi again folks,
> I would formally like to open up a discussion on the following proposal
> for the Apache Incubator:
>
> Pretty version can be found at:
> https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/PonyMailProposal
>
>
> text-only version follows:
> ################################
>
> Abstract
>
> Pony Mail is a mail-archiving, archive viewing, and interaction service,
> that can be integrated with many email platforms.
>
> Proposal
>
> Background
>
> Pony Mail began as a response to two things; the lack of diversity in
> mailing list archives that are less bureaucratic all-or-nothing and more
> fluid way to interact with mailing lists than what is typically offered,
> and the lack of a performant system that solves this issue. Modern users
> of software want to jump right into a discussion they see, but cannot
> normally do so in a mailing list driven environment because of the rules
> generally surrounding said environment. Pony Mail, along with a select
> handful of newer archive systems, provides an interface that allows
> people to just hop into a thread, and take part. Without the need to
> subscribe, download the mbox archive, load it into your MTA, and
> respond.
>
> As Rich writes in a very short essay:
>
> You see a thread in which someone is WRONG ON THE INTERNET! You need to
> correct them. How do you do this today? You kinda don't. If you really
> wanted, you could download mbox files (and who the hell knows where they
> are?) and then try to get them into your mail client (which never works)
> and then reply to it. Which will break threading, because you did
> something wrong. Then you tear out your hair. PONY MAIL TO THE RESCUE!!!
> (sound of hoof beats)
>
> Rationale
>
> One of the oft-heard complaints about Apache's development model is that
> mailing lists are an old person's tool, and web-based communication -
> forums - are the way to go in the 21st Century. Providing a
> full-featured forum-like interface to mailing lists is one goal,while
> keeping all of the enormous benefits that mailing lists already provide.
> Asecond goal is to provide the ability to "jump in" to a mailing list
> conversation - even one that was a while back, without the convolutions
> that a mailing list requires. That is, to join this conversation the old
> way, one would have had to subscribe to the mailing list, download an
> mbox, and import it into ones mail client, in order that I be able to
> reply to this message with correct threading. With Pony Mail, one has to
> do none of those things, but can simply reply using the Web UI. To us,
> this is a HUGE benefit for building community. The requirement to jump
> through hoops to join a mailing list conversation drives away a lot of
> people (at least, anecdotally, it does) and if we can remove that
> barrier I think we'll have an easier time of drawing a new generation
> into our projects.
>
> Initial Goals
>
> The initial goals of transitioning to the ASF is to expand and grow both
> the Pony codebase and community, and ensure the project's continued
> growth and stability through forming a diverse and reliable community,
> in which the various facets of developers and contributors help keep the
> project up to date with latest developments and technical as well as
> social needs.
>
> Current Status
>
> Meritocracy:
>
> The bulk of the code has been written by Daniel Gruno to date, but has
> had oversight from other committers, and mentors.
>
> All members of the Pony project and wider community have a deep
> understanding and appreciation for the ASF meritocracy ideals, and
> are almost solely current ASF Members.
>
> Community:
> The community is currently heavily focused within the ASF, and
> more specifically the Infrastructure group. This is to be
> expected given the nature of how the code came into existence in
> the first place. It should be noted that we have started
> reaching out to other groups who we know are using mailing list
> systems and therefore also rely on mailing list archive
> interfaces.
>
> Core Developers:
> Almost all core developers are ASF members, and are already
> intimately familiar with the Apache Way.
>
> Alignment:
> Pony will be very in line with ASF practices and processes as
> many of the founding members are long term ASF members and
> committers.
>
> Known Risks
>
> Orphaned products:
>
> We are not aware of any issues with orphaned products related to
> this project. Pony Mail relies on a set of CSS3 templates as
> well as some very stable programming languages. We have no
> reason to believe these would be orphaned or, should they become
> orphaned, that it would impact the development of the project.
>
> Inexperience with Open Source:
> Most of the current committers are already ASF members and
> committers, we do not believe there to be any concerns around
> OSS inexperience.
>
> Homogenous Developers:
> While the current mix of people involved in the project spans
> several continents with a wide variety of skills and experience,
> a long standing relation with the ASF applies to all committers
> (even the non-ASF people in this proposal are intimately
> familiar with the ASF), and we believe there to be a very
> homogeneous culture in terms of development, IP and release
> processes.
>
> Reliance on Salaried Developers:
> While two of the committers in this project are salaried
> developers with regards to Pony, the project was founded outside
> of corporate interests, and is primarily driven by people either
> working for or with ties to non-profit organisations. We see no
> issues regarding possible strong-arming or otherwise skewing
> project focus, nor do we believe that absence of salaries would
> deter people from committing to this project.
>
> Relationships with Other Apache Products:
> Pony Mail uses at least Apache HTTPd with mod_lua as its
> end-user facing delivery mechanism. Many of the commiters are
> also involved with this PMC.
>
> Pony also utilises ElasticSearch which is based on Lucene.
>
> Documentation
>
> Documentation will initially be in the source tree, and be part of
> the initial code inclusion.
>
> Initial Source
>
> The initial source was written under the Apache License v/2.0 from
> the beginning, and is available at:
>
> https://github.com/Quenda/ponymail
>
> Source and Intellectual Property Submission Plan
>
> We know of no legal encumberments in the way of transfer of source
> to Apache. Portions of the software (sans dependencies) is already
> owned by the ASF, other portions privately, but it will be granted
> to the ASF in its entirety.
>
> External Dependencies:
>
> ElasticSearch backend (Apache License v/2.0)
> Apache HTTP Server front-end with mod_lua loaded (Apache License
> v/2.0 for httpd, MIT for Lua)
> Python 3.x for importing/archiving (PSF License)
> Lua 5.1 or 5.2 + lua-cjson (MIT License, lua-cjson is optional)
> Bootstrap/JQuery (MIT License)
>
> Cryptography:
> Pony employs no cryptography other than what TLS-enabled web sites
> served by HTTPd might use.
>
> Required Resources:
>
> Mailing lists: It would be rude not too, given this project should
> archive them.
>
> Subversion Directory: Nope
>
> Git Repositories:
> - incubator-ponymail.git - incubator-ponymail-site.git
>
> Issue Tracking: JIRA or GitHub Issues
>
> Other Resources: Dev stack, PoC Stack, HipChat Channel
>
> Initial Committers
>
> - Daniel Gruno < humbedooh@apache.org >
> - Tony Stevenson < pctony@apache.org >
> - Richard Bowen < rbowen@apache.org >
> - Ulises Beresi < ulises.cervino@gmail.com >
> - David P Kendal < apache@dpk.io >
> - Francesco Chicchiriccò - < ilgrosso@apache.org >
>
> Affiliations
>
> Daniel Gruno - Quenda IvS
> Tony Stevenson - pctony ltd, VocalIQ Ltd
> Richard Bowen - Redhat, inc.
> Ulises Beresi - Datastax, inc.
> David P Kendal - Quenda IvS
> Francesco Chicchiriccò - Tirasa S.r.l.
>
> Sponsors
>
> Champion: Suneel Marthi < smarthi@apache.org >
>
> Nominated Mentors:
> Andrew Bayer < abayer@apache.org >
>
> Sponsoring Entity:
> The Apache Software Foundation
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
Re: [PROPOSAL] Pony Mail
Posted by "Mattmann, Chris A (3980)" <ch...@jpl.nasa.gov>.
Great job. As someone that has installed Mailman, and really liked it,
but found it super difficult, and then to see the evolution here, very
awesome. Good job, superstars.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Chris Mattmann, Ph.D.
Chief Architect
Instrument Software and Science Data Systems Section (398)
NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109 USA
Office: 168-519, Mailstop: 168-527
Email: chris.a.mattmann@nasa.gov
WWW: http://sunset.usc.edu/~mattmann/
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Director, Information Retrieval and Data Science Group (IRDS)
Adjunct Associate Professor, Computer Science Department
University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089 USA
WWW: http://irds.usc.edu/
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
On 5/19/16, 11:55 AM, "Daniel Gruno" <hu...@apache.org> wrote:
>Hi again folks,
>I would formally like to open up a discussion on the following proposal
>for the Apache Incubator:
>
>Pretty version can be found at:
>https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/PonyMailProposal
>
>
>text-only version follows:
>################################
>
>Abstract
>
>Pony Mail is a mail-archiving, archive viewing, and interaction service,
>that can be integrated with many email platforms.
>
>Proposal
>
>Background
>
>Pony Mail began as a response to two things; the lack of diversity in
>mailing list archives that are less bureaucratic all-or-nothing and more
>fluid way to interact with mailing lists than what is typically offered,
>and the lack of a performant system that solves this issue. Modern users
>of software want to jump right into a discussion they see, but cannot
>normally do so in a mailing list driven environment because of the rules
>generally surrounding said environment. Pony Mail, along with a select
>handful of newer archive systems, provides an interface that allows
>people to just hop into a thread, and take part. Without the need to
>subscribe, download the mbox archive, load it into your MTA, and
>respond.
>
>As Rich writes in a very short essay:
>
>You see a thread in which someone is WRONG ON THE INTERNET! You need to
>correct them. How do you do this today? You kinda don't. If you really
>wanted, you could download mbox files (and who the hell knows where they
>are?) and then try to get them into your mail client (which never works)
>and then reply to it. Which will break threading, because you did
>something wrong. Then you tear out your hair. PONY MAIL TO THE RESCUE!!!
>(sound of hoof beats)
>
>Rationale
>
>One of the oft-heard complaints about Apache's development model is that
>mailing lists are an old person's tool, and web-based communication -
>forums - are the way to go in the 21st Century. Providing a
>full-featured forum-like interface to mailing lists is one goal,while
>keeping all of the enormous benefits that mailing lists already provide.
>Asecond goal is to provide the ability to "jump in" to a mailing list
>conversation - even one that was a while back, without the convolutions
>that a mailing list requires. That is, to join this conversation the old
>way, one would have had to subscribe to the mailing list, download an
>mbox, and import it into ones mail client, in order that I be able to
>reply to this message with correct threading. With Pony Mail, one has to
>do none of those things, but can simply reply using the Web UI. To us,
>this is a HUGE benefit for building community. The requirement to jump
>through hoops to join a mailing list conversation drives away a lot of
>people (at least, anecdotally, it does) and if we can remove that
>barrier I think we'll have an easier time of drawing a new generation
>into our projects.
>
>Initial Goals
>
>The initial goals of transitioning to the ASF is to expand and grow both
>the Pony codebase and community, and ensure the project's continued
>growth and stability through forming a diverse and reliable community,
>in which the various facets of developers and contributors help keep the
>project up to date with latest developments and technical as well as
>social needs.
>
>Current Status
>
> Meritocracy:
>
>The bulk of the code has been written by Daniel Gruno to date, but has
>had oversight from other committers, and mentors.
>
> All members of the Pony project and wider community have a deep
> understanding and appreciation for the ASF meritocracy ideals, and
> are almost solely current ASF Members.
>
> Community:
> The community is currently heavily focused within the ASF, and
> more specifically the Infrastructure group. This is to be
> expected given the nature of how the code came into existence in
> the first place. It should be noted that we have started
> reaching out to other groups who we know are using mailing list
> systems and therefore also rely on mailing list archive
> interfaces.
>
> Core Developers:
> Almost all core developers are ASF members, and are already
> intimately familiar with the Apache Way.
>
> Alignment:
> Pony will be very in line with ASF practices and processes as
> many of the founding members are long term ASF members and
> committers.
>
>Known Risks
>
> Orphaned products:
>
> We are not aware of any issues with orphaned products related to
> this project. Pony Mail relies on a set of CSS3 templates as
> well as some very stable programming languages. We have no
> reason to believe these would be orphaned or, should they become
> orphaned, that it would impact the development of the project.
>
> Inexperience with Open Source:
> Most of the current committers are already ASF members and
> committers, we do not believe there to be any concerns around
> OSS inexperience.
>
> Homogenous Developers:
> While the current mix of people involved in the project spans
> several continents with a wide variety of skills and experience,
> a long standing relation with the ASF applies to all committers
> (even the non-ASF people in this proposal are intimately
> familiar with the ASF), and we believe there to be a very
> homogeneous culture in terms of development, IP and release
> processes.
>
> Reliance on Salaried Developers:
> While two of the committers in this project are salaried
> developers with regards to Pony, the project was founded outside
> of corporate interests, and is primarily driven by people either
> working for or with ties to non-profit organisations. We see no
> issues regarding possible strong-arming or otherwise skewing
> project focus, nor do we believe that absence of salaries would
> deter people from committing to this project.
>
> Relationships with Other Apache Products:
> Pony Mail uses at least Apache HTTPd with mod_lua as its
> end-user facing delivery mechanism. Many of the commiters are
> also involved with this PMC.
>
> Pony also utilises ElasticSearch which is based on Lucene.
>
>Documentation
>
> Documentation will initially be in the source tree, and be part of
> the initial code inclusion.
>
>Initial Source
>
> The initial source was written under the Apache License v/2.0 from
> the beginning, and is available at:
>
> https://github.com/Quenda/ponymail
>
>Source and Intellectual Property Submission Plan
>
> We know of no legal encumberments in the way of transfer of source
> to Apache. Portions of the software (sans dependencies) is already
> owned by the ASF, other portions privately, but it will be granted
> to the ASF in its entirety.
>
>External Dependencies:
>
> ElasticSearch backend (Apache License v/2.0)
> Apache HTTP Server front-end with mod_lua loaded (Apache License
>v/2.0 for httpd, MIT for Lua)
> Python 3.x for importing/archiving (PSF License)
> Lua 5.1 or 5.2 + lua-cjson (MIT License, lua-cjson is optional)
> Bootstrap/JQuery (MIT License)
>
>Cryptography:
> Pony employs no cryptography other than what TLS-enabled web sites
> served by HTTPd might use.
>
>Required Resources:
>
> Mailing lists: It would be rude not too, given this project should
>archive them.
>
> Subversion Directory: Nope
>
> Git Repositories:
> - incubator-ponymail.git - incubator-ponymail-site.git
>
> Issue Tracking: JIRA or GitHub Issues
>
> Other Resources: Dev stack, PoC Stack, HipChat Channel
>
>Initial Committers
>
> - Daniel Gruno < humbedooh@apache.org >
> - Tony Stevenson < pctony@apache.org >
> - Richard Bowen < rbowen@apache.org >
> - Ulises Beresi < ulises.cervino@gmail.com >
> - David P Kendal < apache@dpk.io >
> - Francesco Chicchiriccò - < ilgrosso@apache.org >
>
>Affiliations
>
> Daniel Gruno - Quenda IvS
> Tony Stevenson - pctony ltd, VocalIQ Ltd
> Richard Bowen - Redhat, inc.
> Ulises Beresi - Datastax, inc.
> David P Kendal - Quenda IvS
> Francesco Chicchiriccò - Tirasa S.r.l.
>
>Sponsors
>
> Champion: Suneel Marthi < smarthi@apache.org >
>
> Nominated Mentors:
> Andrew Bayer < abayer@apache.org >
>
> Sponsoring Entity:
> The Apache Software Foundation
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
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