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Posted to dev@flex.apache.org by filippo dipisa <fi...@dipisa.net> on 2012/02/03 17:26:42 UTC
[discussion]Thoughts on immediate future of Flex
Hi everyone,
I want to rise some thoughts on the immediate future of Flex, considered by
the Java world side
At the moment we are using Flex 4.5, parsley, bla bla bla, as the
presentation layer of some JEE applications as I think many of you are
doing.
1)My problem is, if you have to start a greenfield project web based, would
you use Flex or go for another RIA solution like GWT that already targets
html5?
At the moment I think that many people out there they will try to avoid
Flex because is Flashplayer driven, they don't trust Adobe anymore and it
is not supported by the tablet or /smartphones.
And many others are strugglimg to make their webapp compatible with tablet
or smartphone.
2)If you start a client(desktop)/server project should you use Scala and
JavaFx( that now you can use also in Swing applications) or Flex and Air?
At the moment few people is using JavaFx but could become popular because
you can use it with Scala and Swing applications, boths are very popular
into the enterprise development.
3)If you want to start a mobile or webtv project should we use Flex or
Android?
At the moment there are few webtv that supports the flashplayer 10.2, so
even here if I need to target an application for a webtv my choice wouldn't
be Flex at the moment.
These questions are just to raise a discussion to understand what we have
to do and where we want to go in order to compete with such above mentioned
framework, and to convince the world outside to continue to start using
Flex in the next year.
I think this is very important to give back faith to Flex at this stage.
Thanks a lot for your clarifications.
Filippo
Re: [discussion]Thoughts on immediate future of Flex
Posted by filippo dipisa <fi...@dipisa.net>.
If Adobe would have chosen another comunication strategy probably
Flex/Flash wouldn't be in this situation.
They announced at the same time the stop of the development of the
FlashPlayer for mobile and then the release ofFlex to Apache...
We all know that are 2 complete different issues but the world out there
doesn't, and this announcement + the 3 years campaign of Apple against
Flash and in favour of the Sh!t HTML5, gave Flex a very bad Marketing.
The Flashplayer it is superior to any JSVm I think, but what about JavaFX?
It is multithread, supports all Java frameworks, Scala and more.
At the moment Oracle didn't show anything very impressive, and I think that
Flex is still ahead but I don't know untill when, at least in the
enterprise market.
I think that it is not just changing target, but also improving performance
of the UI components, improving the spark comonent, the rendering and the
data binding performance, and I think we should work also on the OSMF
framework improving the video player performance.
The comunity should really leverage the FlashPlayer up to the Max to
provide something that the JSVM or any other player cannot provide because
of his limitation.
I'm looking forward to see the multithreading fnctionality on the
Flashplayer. This could be a really good milestone and message for the FP
and his related products.
I don't want to see Flex die either, I think Macromedia did a great Job
when they created it, but I heard many many developers/architect that they
don't trust Adobe and their products anymore, moving out of Flex to
Andorid, GWT or other frameworks.
The same happenend years ago with coldfusion, that I think it is still
alive but with a very small comunity ( I'm just guessing and not knowing
any number about that :) )
Let's see.
On 6 February 2012 15:11, ganaraj p r <ga...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I complete agree with filippo. The issue with flex is not whether it is the
> best choice as a UI framework ( which it wins hands down... ) but the
> platform on which it is deployed. I was really saddened the day when a
> really good framework was shot down just because of horrible PR.
>
> I was supposed to start on a new project which left to me, I would have
> picked Flex since its the most ideal environment. Its a large single page
> app. What happened? Managers and VP's ruled it out of existence just
> because of all the new buzz. The questions asked were :
>
> 1.Why would you build it on a platform that is dying?
> 2. If it is dying today, where will we find more flex developers to sustain
> this project...
>
> stuff like these...
>
> I knew from day 1 that JS / JQuery are not going to be enough to support
> such a huge project. I had to investigate alternatives and finally move
> onto GWT.
>
> The Apache community has to somehow bring back Flex ( from the dead ). Yes
> there are still quite a lot of players who are quite into it, I agree.
> But.. We need more people..more support. We need to show people something
> and the end of the tunnel. A ray of hope. A vision that will make them feel
> for it. I completely agree with the ideology of thinking totally
> technically, fixing issues that have always been alive in Flex and that we
> get a chance to fix now. But this is secondary. Even without those fixes
> Flex is a great platform. The problem is, the ground on which this platform
> is standing is shaking ( Flash Player? )..
>
> The greatest advantages of Flash platform has been AS3 which makes writing
> programs a breeze with the way it is built. Then Flex came along and blew
> the wow factors to the sky. And then came the Adobe PR folks with long
> range missiles that show it down from the skies. Now... Its upto us.
>
> Lets create roadmaps...If you feel, lets create branching roads.. which
> take different routes.. A route that goes towards changing the platform.. a
> route that takes us towards a more robust Flex architecture. etc etc..
>
> I see we are doing quite a few fixes into the Apache Flex version already.
> Would it be too much to ask the Apache Flex team ( those with some power?
> those who have been named into different roles. ) to chart out some long
> term visions? Run polls.. on different community groups.. Point those
> people to a page and run a survey? Pick the ones that gain the highest
> votes. Rally the community of developers we have here to each projects.
> Start them..
>
> Lets have a clear communication channel ( maybe a site? ) - which actually
> tells the community ( that follows flex ) as to where it is headed. Lets
> give them sneak peaks ( like adobe does ) that can excite people and entice
> them to contribute to it?
>
> There are competing forces around us. There is Dart which is quite close to
> what AS3 is. How about building Flex on top of Dart? If we need to stay
> where we are .. we need to run.. and we are just trotting along.
>
> Let me point out something.. Usually, open source projects start out as
> small snow specks.. These overtime gain momentum since they start exciting
> and enticing people. Slowly this momentum creates and avalanche effect and
> that is probably how stuff like JQuery / Linux etc are born ( Please feel
> free to correct me.. I might be totally wrong here ).
>
> Flex is already a huge snow ball. It has gained quite a lot of weight.
> Somehow the adobe PR techniques have slowed it down to a standstill. When a
> snowball stops in a place it starts to drip.. We need to provide it with
> enough momentum to set the ball rolling again.
>
> Sorry.. that perhaps was a bit emotional..But I really dont want to see
> Flex die.. Will be happy to contribute to the Flex community.
>
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 4, 2012 at 12:58 PM, Alex Harui <ah...@adobe.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >
> > On 2/3/12 9:01 AM, "filippo dipisa" <fi...@dipisa.net> wrote:
> >
> > > So what is the message that the Apache Flex should give to the outside
> > Flex
> > > comunity to convice them to stay and to help apache as well?
> > The message is now that you can actually make a difference. Before you
> > could submit patches and wait forever. Now you can change the code you
> > want
> > to change. No more waiting and wishing, just doing.
> >
> > --
> > Alex Harui
> > Flex SDK Team
> > Adobe Systems, Inc.
> > http://blogs.adobe.com/aharui
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Regards,
> Ganaraj P R
>
Re: [discussion]Thoughts on immediate future of Flex
Posted by ganaraj p r <ga...@gmail.com>.
I complete agree with filippo. The issue with flex is not whether it is the
best choice as a UI framework ( which it wins hands down... ) but the
platform on which it is deployed. I was really saddened the day when a
really good framework was shot down just because of horrible PR.
I was supposed to start on a new project which left to me, I would have
picked Flex since its the most ideal environment. Its a large single page
app. What happened? Managers and VP's ruled it out of existence just
because of all the new buzz. The questions asked were :
1.Why would you build it on a platform that is dying?
2. If it is dying today, where will we find more flex developers to sustain
this project...
stuff like these...
I knew from day 1 that JS / JQuery are not going to be enough to support
such a huge project. I had to investigate alternatives and finally move
onto GWT.
The Apache community has to somehow bring back Flex ( from the dead ). Yes
there are still quite a lot of players who are quite into it, I agree.
But.. We need more people..more support. We need to show people something
and the end of the tunnel. A ray of hope. A vision that will make them feel
for it. I completely agree with the ideology of thinking totally
technically, fixing issues that have always been alive in Flex and that we
get a chance to fix now. But this is secondary. Even without those fixes
Flex is a great platform. The problem is, the ground on which this platform
is standing is shaking ( Flash Player? )..
The greatest advantages of Flash platform has been AS3 which makes writing
programs a breeze with the way it is built. Then Flex came along and blew
the wow factors to the sky. And then came the Adobe PR folks with long
range missiles that show it down from the skies. Now... Its upto us.
Lets create roadmaps...If you feel, lets create branching roads.. which
take different routes.. A route that goes towards changing the platform.. a
route that takes us towards a more robust Flex architecture. etc etc..
I see we are doing quite a few fixes into the Apache Flex version already.
Would it be too much to ask the Apache Flex team ( those with some power?
those who have been named into different roles. ) to chart out some long
term visions? Run polls.. on different community groups.. Point those
people to a page and run a survey? Pick the ones that gain the highest
votes. Rally the community of developers we have here to each projects.
Start them..
Lets have a clear communication channel ( maybe a site? ) - which actually
tells the community ( that follows flex ) as to where it is headed. Lets
give them sneak peaks ( like adobe does ) that can excite people and entice
them to contribute to it?
There are competing forces around us. There is Dart which is quite close to
what AS3 is. How about building Flex on top of Dart? If we need to stay
where we are .. we need to run.. and we are just trotting along.
Let me point out something.. Usually, open source projects start out as
small snow specks.. These overtime gain momentum since they start exciting
and enticing people. Slowly this momentum creates and avalanche effect and
that is probably how stuff like JQuery / Linux etc are born ( Please feel
free to correct me.. I might be totally wrong here ).
Flex is already a huge snow ball. It has gained quite a lot of weight.
Somehow the adobe PR techniques have slowed it down to a standstill. When a
snowball stops in a place it starts to drip.. We need to provide it with
enough momentum to set the ball rolling again.
Sorry.. that perhaps was a bit emotional..But I really dont want to see
Flex die.. Will be happy to contribute to the Flex community.
On Sat, Feb 4, 2012 at 12:58 PM, Alex Harui <ah...@adobe.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> On 2/3/12 9:01 AM, "filippo dipisa" <fi...@dipisa.net> wrote:
>
> > So what is the message that the Apache Flex should give to the outside
> Flex
> > comunity to convice them to stay and to help apache as well?
> The message is now that you can actually make a difference. Before you
> could submit patches and wait forever. Now you can change the code you
> want
> to change. No more waiting and wishing, just doing.
>
> --
> Alex Harui
> Flex SDK Team
> Adobe Systems, Inc.
> http://blogs.adobe.com/aharui
>
>
--
Regards,
Ganaraj P R
Re: [discussion]Thoughts on immediate future of Flex
Posted by Alex Harui <ah...@adobe.com>.
On 2/3/12 9:01 AM, "filippo dipisa" <fi...@dipisa.net> wrote:
> So what is the message that the Apache Flex should give to the outside Flex
> comunity to convice them to stay and to help apache as well?
The message is now that you can actually make a difference. Before you
could submit patches and wait forever. Now you can change the code you want
to change. No more waiting and wishing, just doing.
--
Alex Harui
Flex SDK Team
Adobe Systems, Inc.
http://blogs.adobe.com/aharui
Re: [discussion]Thoughts on immediate future of Flex
Posted by filippo dipisa <fi...@dipisa.net>.
My questions are just to rise a discussion.
We already know and decided what to use for the future UI development
This questions Is just to understand the priorities to give faith back to
Flex, because I know many Flex developers that are complaining against
Adobe and trying to move out from Flex development.
So what is the message that the Apache Flex should give to the outside Flex
comunity to convice them to stay and to help apache as well?
On 3 February 2012 16:50, James Ong <ya...@gmail.com> wrote:
> You will find your question is quite general in this mailing list, rather,
> you should make the proper decision from Consumers data in Forrester
> Research.
>
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 4, 2012 at 12:40 AM, Bruce Lane <br...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> > I would use AIR as it runs on the platforms and projects you need, and
> > I would have faith in the wonderful apache flex community.
> > Bruce
> >
> > On 3 February 2012 17:26, filippo dipisa <fi...@dipisa.net> wrote:
> > > Hi everyone,
> > > I want to rise some thoughts on the immediate future of Flex,
> considered
> > by
> > > the Java world side
> > >
> > > At the moment we are using Flex 4.5, parsley, bla bla bla, as the
> > > presentation layer of some JEE applications as I think many of you are
> > > doing.
> > >
> > > 1)My problem is, if you have to start a greenfield project web based,
> > would
> > > you use Flex or go for another RIA solution like GWT that already
> targets
> > > html5?
> > > At the moment I think that many people out there they will try to avoid
> > > Flex because is Flashplayer driven, they don't trust Adobe anymore and
> > it
> > > is not supported by the tablet or /smartphones.
> > > And many others are strugglimg to make their webapp compatible with
> > tablet
> > > or smartphone.
> > >
> > > 2)If you start a client(desktop)/server project should you use Scala
> and
> > > JavaFx( that now you can use also in Swing applications) or Flex and
> Air?
> > > At the moment few people is using JavaFx but could become popular
> because
> > > you can use it with Scala and Swing applications, boths are very
> popular
> > > into the enterprise development.
> > >
> > > 3)If you want to start a mobile or webtv project should we use Flex or
> > > Android?
> > > At the moment there are few webtv that supports the flashplayer 10.2,
> so
> > > even here if I need to target an application for a webtv my choice
> > wouldn't
> > > be Flex at the moment.
> > >
> > > These questions are just to raise a discussion to understand what we
> have
> > > to do and where we want to go in order to compete with such above
> > mentioned
> > > framework, and to convince the world outside to continue to start using
> > > Flex in the next year.
> > >
> > > I think this is very important to give back faith to Flex at this
> stage.
> > >
> > > Thanks a lot for your clarifications.
> > >
> > > Filippo
> >
>
Re: [discussion]Thoughts on immediate future of Flex
Posted by James Ong <ya...@gmail.com>.
You will find your question is quite general in this mailing list, rather,
you should make the proper decision from Consumers data in Forrester
Research.
On Sat, Feb 4, 2012 at 12:40 AM, Bruce Lane <br...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
> I would use AIR as it runs on the platforms and projects you need, and
> I would have faith in the wonderful apache flex community.
> Bruce
>
> On 3 February 2012 17:26, filippo dipisa <fi...@dipisa.net> wrote:
> > Hi everyone,
> > I want to rise some thoughts on the immediate future of Flex, considered
> by
> > the Java world side
> >
> > At the moment we are using Flex 4.5, parsley, bla bla bla, as the
> > presentation layer of some JEE applications as I think many of you are
> > doing.
> >
> > 1)My problem is, if you have to start a greenfield project web based,
> would
> > you use Flex or go for another RIA solution like GWT that already targets
> > html5?
> > At the moment I think that many people out there they will try to avoid
> > Flex because is Flashplayer driven, they don't trust Adobe anymore and
> it
> > is not supported by the tablet or /smartphones.
> > And many others are strugglimg to make their webapp compatible with
> tablet
> > or smartphone.
> >
> > 2)If you start a client(desktop)/server project should you use Scala and
> > JavaFx( that now you can use also in Swing applications) or Flex and Air?
> > At the moment few people is using JavaFx but could become popular because
> > you can use it with Scala and Swing applications, boths are very popular
> > into the enterprise development.
> >
> > 3)If you want to start a mobile or webtv project should we use Flex or
> > Android?
> > At the moment there are few webtv that supports the flashplayer 10.2, so
> > even here if I need to target an application for a webtv my choice
> wouldn't
> > be Flex at the moment.
> >
> > These questions are just to raise a discussion to understand what we have
> > to do and where we want to go in order to compete with such above
> mentioned
> > framework, and to convince the world outside to continue to start using
> > Flex in the next year.
> >
> > I think this is very important to give back faith to Flex at this stage.
> >
> > Thanks a lot for your clarifications.
> >
> > Filippo
>
Re: [discussion]Thoughts on immediate future of Flex
Posted by Bruce Lane <br...@gmail.com>.
Hi,
I would use AIR as it runs on the platforms and projects you need, and
I would have faith in the wonderful apache flex community.
Bruce
On 3 February 2012 17:26, filippo dipisa <fi...@dipisa.net> wrote:
> Hi everyone,
> I want to rise some thoughts on the immediate future of Flex, considered by
> the Java world side
>
> At the moment we are using Flex 4.5, parsley, bla bla bla, as the
> presentation layer of some JEE applications as I think many of you are
> doing.
>
> 1)My problem is, if you have to start a greenfield project web based, would
> you use Flex or go for another RIA solution like GWT that already targets
> html5?
> At the moment I think that many people out there they will try to avoid
> Flex because is Flashplayer driven, they don't trust Adobe anymore and it
> is not supported by the tablet or /smartphones.
> And many others are strugglimg to make their webapp compatible with tablet
> or smartphone.
>
> 2)If you start a client(desktop)/server project should you use Scala and
> JavaFx( that now you can use also in Swing applications) or Flex and Air?
> At the moment few people is using JavaFx but could become popular because
> you can use it with Scala and Swing applications, boths are very popular
> into the enterprise development.
>
> 3)If you want to start a mobile or webtv project should we use Flex or
> Android?
> At the moment there are few webtv that supports the flashplayer 10.2, so
> even here if I need to target an application for a webtv my choice wouldn't
> be Flex at the moment.
>
> These questions are just to raise a discussion to understand what we have
> to do and where we want to go in order to compete with such above mentioned
> framework, and to convince the world outside to continue to start using
> Flex in the next year.
>
> I think this is very important to give back faith to Flex at this stage.
>
> Thanks a lot for your clarifications.
>
> Filippo
Re: [discussion]Thoughts on immediate future of Flex
Posted by filippo dipisa <fi...@dipisa.net>.
>
>
> At the moment I think that many people out there they will try to avoid
>> Flex because is Flashplayer driven, they don't trust Adobe anymore and it
>> is not supported by the tablet or /smartphones.
>>
> That is a bit of a misnomer. You can't run Flash in mobile browsers
> (except on most current Android devices or Playbook) and Adobe is stopping
> future development of their mobile browser. But you can use Flex/Flash to
> build native applications.
Yes you are right, but the performance are orrible.
>
>
> And many others are strugglimg to make their webapp compatible with tablet
>> or smartphone.
>>
> Is that struggle unique to Flash?
>
>
yes. If you develop an entire webapp using Flex as view layer you will lose
all tablets and smartphone users.
Of course you could architect in a way to use Flex 4.5 mobile new APis to
build the tablet version, but for people with legacy code is will be more
difficult.
>
> --
> Jeffry Houser
> Technical Entrepreneur
> 203-379-0773
> --
> http://www.flextras.com?c=104
> UI Flex Components: Tested! Supported! Ready!
> --
> http://www.theflexshow.com
> http://www.jeffryhouser.com
> http://www.asktheflexpert.com
> --
> Part of the DotComIt Brain Trust
>
>
Re: [discussion]Thoughts on immediate future of Flex
Posted by Jeffry Houser <je...@dot-com-it.com>.
On 2/3/2012 11:26 AM, filippo dipisa wrote:
> 1)My problem is, if you have to start a greenfield project web based, would
> you use Flex or go for another RIA solution like GWT that already targets
> html5?
It depends on the skills of the team, the budget, and timeline.
> At the moment I think that many people out there they will try to avoid
> Flex because is Flashplayer driven, they don't trust Adobe anymore and it
> is not supported by the tablet or /smartphones.
That is a bit of a misnomer. You can't run Flash in mobile browsers
(except on most current Android devices or Playbook) and Adobe is
stopping future development of their mobile browser. But you can use
Flex/Flash to build native applications.
> And many others are strugglimg to make their webapp compatible with tablet
> or smartphone.
Is that struggle unique to Flash?
--
Jeffry Houser
Technical Entrepreneur
203-379-0773
--
http://www.flextras.com?c=104
UI Flex Components: Tested! Supported! Ready!
--
http://www.theflexshow.com
http://www.jeffryhouser.com
http://www.asktheflexpert.com
--
Part of the DotComIt Brain Trust