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Posted to legal-discuss@apache.org by Thilo Goetz <tw...@gmx.de> on 2009/06/15 10:26:55 UTC

Research papers in Apache project SVN?

Guys,

on the UIMA home page, we host some papers and slides of
past academic UIMA workshops.  We have permission by all
the authors to do so.  Since the papers are on our site,
they're all in SVN.  So here's the question: is it ok for
us to host these papers in SVN?  Obviously, the content
has not been licensed to Apache in any way, and the authors
retain all rights.

Are other Apache projects doing similar things?  Is there
a different, better way?

I'm asking now because there'll be another UIMA workshop
in the summer, and the organizers have asked us to host
the papers again.  I'd never thought about it before, but
following legal-discuss for a few years now has made me
a bit paranoid ;-)

Here's the page:
http://incubator.apache.org/uima/gldv07.html

--Thilo

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Re: Research papers in Apache project SVN?

Posted by Thilo Goetz <tw...@gmx.de>.
Ralph Goers wrote:
> 
> On Jun 18, 2009, at 7:36 AM, Thilo Goetz wrote:
>>
>> There is no explicit license.  People usually don't put their
>> research papers under an explicit license when they put them
>> up for download on a website.  The authors own the copyright,
>> and the understood license (I'm guessing here) is that you're
>> allowed to download the content, make copies and further
>> distribute as long as you don't change anything.
> 
> Actually, without a license I would expect that posting it on a web site
> and making it freely available would be a violation of their copyright.
> You said we have permission to redistribute. If there is no license
> where did that permission come from?

I had each of them send me an email with the paper
as attachment asking me to put it up on the website.
The emails went to me privately because you can't
send attachments to the mailing list.  If I had to
do it today, I would ask them to use Jira...

--Thilo

> 
> Ralph
> 
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Re: Research papers in Apache project SVN?

Posted by Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>.
On Jun 18, 2009, at 7:36 AM, Thilo Goetz wrote:
>
> There is no explicit license.  People usually don't put their
> research papers under an explicit license when they put them
> up for download on a website.  The authors own the copyright,
> and the understood license (I'm guessing here) is that you're
> allowed to download the content, make copies and further
> distribute as long as you don't change anything.

Actually, without a license I would expect that posting it on a web  
site and making it freely available would be a violation of their  
copyright. You said we have permission to redistribute. If there is no  
license where did that permission come from?

Ralph

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Re: Research papers in Apache project SVN?

Posted by Thilo Goetz <tw...@gmx.de>.
Henri Yandell wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 3:08 AM, Thilo Goetz<tw...@gmx.de> wrote:
>> Jukka Zitting wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 8:56 AM, Thilo Goetz<tw...@gmx.de> wrote:
>>>> Well, I'm not a lawyer either :-)  What I meant was, we have
>>>> permission to put these papers up on our website, but the
>>>> content is not under an open source license in any way.
>>> Sounds like we have a right to redistribute those papers in unmodified
>>> form, so the case is similar to what we've discussed about standard
>>> API jars and other similar resources (see LEGAL-36 and LEGAL-50 for
>>> examples).
>>>
>>> The emerging consensus seems to be that such resources are OK for
>>> inclusion in binary distributions, but should not be kept in the "work
>>> area for our product development" [1]. The same thread also makes a
>>> distinction between the "information space" for "production" (i.e. the
>>> trunks, branches, etc. we use when working on our software) and other
>>> spaces like project web sites or release distribution directories.
>>>
>>> Based on that distinction I don't think there's anything wrong with
>>> publishing such papers on our web sites as long as they're kept away
>>> from the normal source trunk and clearly labelled as non- open source
>>> resources.
>> That's the intuition we've been working under and the answer
>> I was hoping for...
> 
> We license the sites under AL 2.0. People copy them. Are these authors
> going to be happy if they find that someone has copied the Apache
> website and is also serving up a copy of their paper?

I think so, dissemination is the whole point.

> 
> Having their 'permission' doesn't tell us much. If it's not AL2.0,
> then what is it?

There is no explicit license.  People usually don't put their
research papers under an explicit license when they put them
up for download on a website.  The authors own the copyright,
and the understood license (I'm guessing here) is that you're
allowed to download the content, make copies and further
distribute as long as you don't change anything.

--Thilo

> 
> Hen
> 
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Re: Research papers in Apache project SVN?

Posted by Henri Yandell <hy...@gmail.com>.
On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 3:08 AM, Thilo Goetz<tw...@gmx.de> wrote:
> Jukka Zitting wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 8:56 AM, Thilo Goetz<tw...@gmx.de> wrote:
>>> Well, I'm not a lawyer either :-)  What I meant was, we have
>>> permission to put these papers up on our website, but the
>>> content is not under an open source license in any way.
>>
>> Sounds like we have a right to redistribute those papers in unmodified
>> form, so the case is similar to what we've discussed about standard
>> API jars and other similar resources (see LEGAL-36 and LEGAL-50 for
>> examples).
>>
>> The emerging consensus seems to be that such resources are OK for
>> inclusion in binary distributions, but should not be kept in the "work
>> area for our product development" [1]. The same thread also makes a
>> distinction between the "information space" for "production" (i.e. the
>> trunks, branches, etc. we use when working on our software) and other
>> spaces like project web sites or release distribution directories.
>>
>> Based on that distinction I don't think there's anything wrong with
>> publishing such papers on our web sites as long as they're kept away
>> from the normal source trunk and clearly labelled as non- open source
>> resources.
>
> That's the intuition we've been working under and the answer
> I was hoping for...

We license the sites under AL 2.0. People copy them. Are these authors
going to be happy if they find that someone has copied the Apache
website and is also serving up a copy of their paper?

Having their 'permission' doesn't tell us much. If it's not AL2.0,
then what is it?

Hen

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Re: Research papers in Apache project SVN?

Posted by Thilo Goetz <tw...@gmx.de>.
Jukka Zitting wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 8:56 AM, Thilo Goetz<tw...@gmx.de> wrote:
>> Well, I'm not a lawyer either :-)  What I meant was, we have
>> permission to put these papers up on our website, but the
>> content is not under an open source license in any way.
> 
> Sounds like we have a right to redistribute those papers in unmodified
> form, so the case is similar to what we've discussed about standard
> API jars and other similar resources (see LEGAL-36 and LEGAL-50 for
> examples).
> 
> The emerging consensus seems to be that such resources are OK for
> inclusion in binary distributions, but should not be kept in the "work
> area for our product development" [1]. The same thread also makes a
> distinction between the "information space" for "production" (i.e. the
> trunks, branches, etc. we use when working on our software) and other
> spaces like project web sites or release distribution directories.
> 
> Based on that distinction I don't think there's anything wrong with
> publishing such papers on our web sites as long as they're kept away
> from the normal source trunk and clearly labelled as non- open source
> resources.

That's the intuition we've been working under and the answer
I was hoping for...

--Thilo

> 
> [1] http://markmail.org/message/vjycvh7z3hoqkk4q
> 
> BR,
> 
> Jukka Zitting
> 
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Re: Research papers in Apache project SVN?

Posted by Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com>.
Hi,

On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 8:56 AM, Thilo Goetz<tw...@gmx.de> wrote:
> Well, I'm not a lawyer either :-)  What I meant was, we have
> permission to put these papers up on our website, but the
> content is not under an open source license in any way.

Sounds like we have a right to redistribute those papers in unmodified
form, so the case is similar to what we've discussed about standard
API jars and other similar resources (see LEGAL-36 and LEGAL-50 for
examples).

The emerging consensus seems to be that such resources are OK for
inclusion in binary distributions, but should not be kept in the "work
area for our product development" [1]. The same thread also makes a
distinction between the "information space" for "production" (i.e. the
trunks, branches, etc. we use when working on our software) and other
spaces like project web sites or release distribution directories.

Based on that distinction I don't think there's anything wrong with
publishing such papers on our web sites as long as they're kept away
from the normal source trunk and clearly labelled as non- open source
resources.

[1] http://markmail.org/message/vjycvh7z3hoqkk4q

BR,

Jukka Zitting

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Re: Research papers in Apache project SVN?

Posted by Thilo Goetz <tw...@gmx.de>.
Ross Gardler wrote:
> 2009/6/16 Thilo Goetz <tw...@gmx.de>:
>> Ross Gardler wrote:
>>> 2009/6/16 Thilo Goetz <tw...@gmx.de>:
>>>> Henri Yandell wrote:
>>>>> This doesn't compute:
>>>>>
>>>>> "We have permission by all the authors to do so"
>>>>>
>>>>> vs
>>>>>
>>>>> "Obviously, the content has not been licensed to Apache in any way,
>>>>> and the authors retain all rights"
>>>>>
>>>>> IANAL etc, but I don't see how those two statements can both be true.
>>>> Well, I'm not a lawyer either :-)  What I meant was, we have
>>>> permission to put these papers up on our website, but the
>>>> content is not under an open source license in any way.  So
>>>> my understanding is, we're fine to have them on our website.
>>>> Question is, is it ok from an Apache viewpoint to have this
>>>> kind of content in our SVN?  It's not source code, so the
>>>> usual licensing policy does not seem immediately applicable.
>>>> Did I make myself clear this time?
>>> Who actually owns copyright?
>>>
>>> I ask becuase research papers are often published in peer reviewed
>>> jouirnals that require assignment of copyright and prevent
>>> redistribution.
>> The authors own copyright (at least they did at the time the
>> website was put up).  None of the papers were published anywhere
>> else as far as I know.
> 
> Then why not have them contribute under an ASL license? They still
> retain copyright and we have the right to redistribute (which they are
> granting anyway).

I personally have no idea what it would mean for a paper to
be under the Apache License.  Could somebody take the paper,
strip out the author names and put it up on their website?
I think I have a reasonable understanding of what it means
for source code to be under the AL, but for papers, I frankly
don't know.

--Thilo

> 
> Ross
> 
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Re: Research papers in Apache project SVN?

Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@apache.org>.
2009/6/16 Thilo Goetz <tw...@gmx.de>:
> Ross Gardler wrote:
>> 2009/6/16 Thilo Goetz <tw...@gmx.de>:
>>> Henri Yandell wrote:
>>>> This doesn't compute:
>>>>
>>>> "We have permission by all the authors to do so"
>>>>
>>>> vs
>>>>
>>>> "Obviously, the content has not been licensed to Apache in any way,
>>>> and the authors retain all rights"
>>>>
>>>> IANAL etc, but I don't see how those two statements can both be true.
>>> Well, I'm not a lawyer either :-)  What I meant was, we have
>>> permission to put these papers up on our website, but the
>>> content is not under an open source license in any way.  So
>>> my understanding is, we're fine to have them on our website.
>>> Question is, is it ok from an Apache viewpoint to have this
>>> kind of content in our SVN?  It's not source code, so the
>>> usual licensing policy does not seem immediately applicable.
>>> Did I make myself clear this time?
>>
>> Who actually owns copyright?
>>
>> I ask becuase research papers are often published in peer reviewed
>> jouirnals that require assignment of copyright and prevent
>> redistribution.
>
> The authors own copyright (at least they did at the time the
> website was put up).  None of the papers were published anywhere
> else as far as I know.

Then why not have them contribute under an ASL license? They still
retain copyright and we have the right to redistribute (which they are
granting anyway).

Ross

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Re: Research papers in Apache project SVN?

Posted by Thilo Goetz <tw...@gmx.de>.
Ross Gardler wrote:
> 2009/6/16 Thilo Goetz <tw...@gmx.de>:
>> Henri Yandell wrote:
>>> This doesn't compute:
>>>
>>> "We have permission by all the authors to do so"
>>>
>>> vs
>>>
>>> "Obviously, the content has not been licensed to Apache in any way,
>>> and the authors retain all rights"
>>>
>>> IANAL etc, but I don't see how those two statements can both be true.
>> Well, I'm not a lawyer either :-)  What I meant was, we have
>> permission to put these papers up on our website, but the
>> content is not under an open source license in any way.  So
>> my understanding is, we're fine to have them on our website.
>> Question is, is it ok from an Apache viewpoint to have this
>> kind of content in our SVN?  It's not source code, so the
>> usual licensing policy does not seem immediately applicable.
>> Did I make myself clear this time?
> 
> Who actually owns copyright?
> 
> I ask becuase research papers are often published in peer reviewed
> jouirnals that require assignment of copyright and prevent
> redistribution.

The authors own copyright (at least they did at the time the
website was put up).  None of the papers were published anywhere
else as far as I know.

--Thilo

> 
> Ross
> 
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Re: Research papers in Apache project SVN?

Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@apache.org>.
2009/6/16 Thilo Goetz <tw...@gmx.de>:
> Henri Yandell wrote:
>> This doesn't compute:
>>
>> "We have permission by all the authors to do so"
>>
>> vs
>>
>> "Obviously, the content has not been licensed to Apache in any way,
>> and the authors retain all rights"
>>
>> IANAL etc, but I don't see how those two statements can both be true.
>
> Well, I'm not a lawyer either :-)  What I meant was, we have
> permission to put these papers up on our website, but the
> content is not under an open source license in any way.  So
> my understanding is, we're fine to have them on our website.
> Question is, is it ok from an Apache viewpoint to have this
> kind of content in our SVN?  It's not source code, so the
> usual licensing policy does not seem immediately applicable.
> Did I make myself clear this time?

Who actually owns copyright?

I ask becuase research papers are often published in peer reviewed
jouirnals that require assignment of copyright and prevent
redistribution.

Ross

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Re: Research papers in Apache project SVN?

Posted by Thilo Goetz <tw...@gmx.de>.
Henri Yandell wrote:
> This doesn't compute:
> 
> "We have permission by all the authors to do so"
> 
> vs
> 
> "Obviously, the content has not been licensed to Apache in any way,
> and the authors retain all rights"
> 
> IANAL etc, but I don't see how those two statements can both be true.

Well, I'm not a lawyer either :-)  What I meant was, we have
permission to put these papers up on our website, but the
content is not under an open source license in any way.  So
my understanding is, we're fine to have them on our website.
Question is, is it ok from an Apache viewpoint to have this
kind of content in our SVN?  It's not source code, so the
usual licensing policy does not seem immediately applicable.
Did I make myself clear this time?

Thanks,
Thilo

> 
> On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 1:26 AM, Thilo Goetz<tw...@gmx.de> wrote:
>> Guys,
>>
>> on the UIMA home page, we host some papers and slides of
>> past academic UIMA workshops.  We have permission by all
>> the authors to do so.  Since the papers are on our site,
>> they're all in SVN.  So here's the question: is it ok for
>> us to host these papers in SVN?  Obviously, the content
>> has not been licensed to Apache in any way, and the authors
>> retain all rights.
>>
>> Are other Apache projects doing similar things?  Is there
>> a different, better way?
>>
>> I'm asking now because there'll be another UIMA workshop
>> in the summer, and the organizers have asked us to host
>> the papers again.  I'd never thought about it before, but
>> following legal-discuss for a few years now has made me
>> a bit paranoid ;-)
>>
>> Here's the page:
>> http://incubator.apache.org/uima/gldv07.html
>>
>> --Thilo
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: legal-discuss-unsubscribe@apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: legal-discuss-help@apache.org
>>
>>
> 
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Re: Research papers in Apache project SVN?

Posted by Henri Yandell <hy...@gmail.com>.
This doesn't compute:

"We have permission by all the authors to do so"

vs

"Obviously, the content has not been licensed to Apache in any way,
and the authors retain all rights"

IANAL etc, but I don't see how those two statements can both be true.

On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 1:26 AM, Thilo Goetz<tw...@gmx.de> wrote:
> Guys,
>
> on the UIMA home page, we host some papers and slides of
> past academic UIMA workshops.  We have permission by all
> the authors to do so.  Since the papers are on our site,
> they're all in SVN.  So here's the question: is it ok for
> us to host these papers in SVN?  Obviously, the content
> has not been licensed to Apache in any way, and the authors
> retain all rights.
>
> Are other Apache projects doing similar things?  Is there
> a different, better way?
>
> I'm asking now because there'll be another UIMA workshop
> in the summer, and the organizers have asked us to host
> the papers again.  I'd never thought about it before, but
> following legal-discuss for a few years now has made me
> a bit paranoid ;-)
>
> Here's the page:
> http://incubator.apache.org/uima/gldv07.html
>
> --Thilo
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: legal-discuss-unsubscribe@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: legal-discuss-help@apache.org
>
>

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