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Posted to general@incubator.apache.org by Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org> on 2003/12/01 04:12:39 UTC
Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Leo Simons wrote:
>>
>> And how is this not a community decision?
>>
> IMV, the community has decided, and making a different
> decision now would be overruling that decision by the pmc.
> Which is valid, of course, but I don't have to like it :D
+1
Stefano recently used the term bureaucracy to describe aspects of the ASF.
Observations:
1) The incubator PMC is acquiring new PMC members, and will
asymptotically aproach the list of all ASF committers who are involved
in any way with any aspect of growth or regeneration of code bases. In
short, it will become the epitame of an uber umbrella PMC.
2) I can think of no decision more akin to a bike shed than the naming
of a project.
The inevitable result of these two factors is an interminable discussion
on the naming of a project.
IMHO, the right answer is *not* to buck this up to the incubator PMC, or
to members, or *gasp* to the board. A much better approach would be:
1) Have the incubator PMC identify a clear set of constraints that apply
to *all* names. Vote on them, document them, and move on.
2) Identify the PPMC who gets to name this project - and hold them
accountable for their decision.
- Sam Ruby
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RE: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Roy T. Fielding [mailto:fielding@gbiv.com]
> > Roy made a comment that a condition for leaving the incubator is that
> > the name be changed. I hadn't heard that before
> I said that the condition was that it would be reconsidered
Sorry to misunderstand. Thanks for the clarification.
--- Noel
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by "Roy T. Fielding" <fi...@gbiv.com>.
> Roy made a comment that a condition for leaving the incubator is that
> the
> name be changed. I hadn't heard that before, but those are two
> incompatible
> views.
I said that the condition was that it would be reconsidered; basically,
that any comments to the effect that it is now "too late" or the name is
vested with too much press must be set aside -- eventually, either the
PMC or the members or the board (or perhaps all three) will vote on the
name and if any one of those mandates a change, the change will be put
in place whether the developers like it or not. That is the condition
they were willing to accept, and I will hold them to it.
....Roy
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RE: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> 1) The incubator PMC is acquiring new PMC members, and will
> asymptotically aproach the list of all ASF committers who
> are involved in any way with any aspect of growth or
> regeneration of code bases. In short, it will become the
> epitame of an uber umbrella PMC.
As you are aware, we are discussing a reorganization of the PMC that will
change its structure to be tightly related to each project.
> IMHO, the right answer is *not* to buck this up to the incubator PMC, or
> to members, or *gasp* to the board. A much better approach would be:
> 1) Have the incubator PMC identify a clear set of constraints that apply
> to *all* names. Vote on them, document them, and move on.
There is one, which has been documented from the beginning. There must be a
trademark search to ensure that the name is available. As far as I can
tell, that mandated activity never happened.
I know that a search was done of the US PTO, but as I noted at the time, not
all trademarks are registered. I've posted references to multiple software
projects with a prior claim on the name, but the fact that there are
multiple, and they haven't pursued each other might make it harder for them
to complain about this one. IANAL, but I'm not sure, if Geronimo is even
trademarkable for software.
Sally makes a point that the Geronimo name has stuck, and should be kept.
Roy made a comment that a condition for leaving the incubator is that the
name be changed. I hadn't heard that before, but those are two incompatible
views.
> Identify the PPMC who gets to name this project - and hold them
> accountable for their decision.
When we complete what I hope will be the Incubator's reorganization, and we
have a Geronimo PPMC, I'm sure that will happen.
--- Noel
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@4quarters.com>.
On Dec 1, 2003, at 12:53 PM, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>
>
> In any event, I would table this to be resolved by the Geronimo
> what-ever-we-call-this-thing-currently-labelled-PPMC.
Yikes. We don't have enough bicyles for this.
Can we just call it the PPMC, until we decide to change the ASF bylaws
and remove "PMC" from the lexicon?
Or, does anyone mind if I resubmit the proposal/vote and add a subvote
for what we will call it so we can get this out of the way and get
$NAME_THINGY on it's way for the-project-that-might-be-called-Geronimo
and others in incubation?
geir
P.S. Hey! I have an idea! instead of renaming the Geronimo project,
why don't we make up a symbol that will mean "The Project Formerly
Known as Geronimo"
--
Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m)
geir@4quarters.com
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RE: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
>>> 2) Identify the PPMC who gets to name this project - and hold them
>>> accountable for their decision.
> > We are not deciding on the name but on the need or not to have a name
> > change. In case for a name change, this will surely be the case.
> At which point, they will be autonomous until the Incubator PMC decides
> that the new name offends somebody.
That should not happen, because the "PPMC" (or whatever name it goes by)
will BE the Incubator PMC, along with the other relevant parties. That is
the whole point of the restructuring of "umbrella" PMCs.
> I would very much prefer that this be turned around. Instead of the
> incubator PMC voting on and taking responsibility for rejecting the
> name Geronimo, establish a PPMC and have the concerned individuals
> make their case to the people who are empowered to make that decision.
That is my proposal, as well, although it may come out differently because
it may be that I see the "PPMC" differently than you do.
In any event, I would table this to be resolved by the Geronimo
what-ever-we-call-this-thing-currently-labelled-PPMC.
--- Noel
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
On Dec 3, 2003, at 7:37 AM, Jeremy Boynes wrote:
> Ted Leung wrote:
>> Xerces is a butterfly. It is not a misspelling of Xerxes (the person)
>
> According to http://www.xerces.org/Xerces.htm
>
> "The French entomologist Boisduval named the butterfly for King
> Xerxes, but retained the French spelling, Xerces."
>
> [ runs quickly away to put another coat of paint on the bikeshed ]
LOL (sorry for that)
I was thinking I was just reading a longish mailing list thread - but
this is becoming a Go game, actually. A pity there's only two colors in
that.
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source Java & XML An Orixo Member
Read my weblog at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by Ted Leung <tw...@sauria.com>.
On 12/2/03 10:37 PM, Jeremy Boynes wrote:
> Ted Leung wrote:
>
>> On 12/1/03 10:00 AM, David Jencks wrote:
>>
>>> Not to mention Xerces (definitely a person) and Alexandria (city in
>>> Egypt), Merlin (religious and possibly a person's name), Pluto
>>> (religious and possibly a geographical place, depending on whether
>>> you think planets have geography), and possibly Avalon (possibly a
>>> geographical name for the British Isles AFAIK)
>>
>>
>>
>> Xerces is a butterfly. It is not a misspelling of Xerxes (the person)
>>
>
> According to http://www.xerces.org/Xerces.htm
>
> "The French entomologist Boisduval named the butterfly for King
> Xerxes, but retained the French spelling, Xerces."
>
> [ runs quickly away to put another coat of paint on the bikeshed ]
>
Just goes to show that you can learn some thing new everyday. But when
we named Xerces we weren't thinking of the person, we were definitely
thinking of the butterfly.
--
Ted Leung Blog: http://www.sauria.com/blog
PGP Fingerprint: 1003 7870 251F FA71 A59A CEE3 BEBA 2B87 F5FC 4B42
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by Jeremy Boynes <je...@coredevelopers.net>.
Ted Leung wrote:
> On 12/1/03 10:00 AM, David Jencks wrote:
>
>> Not to mention Xerces (definitely a person) and Alexandria (city in
>> Egypt), Merlin (religious and possibly a person's name), Pluto
>> (religious and possibly a geographical place, depending on whether you
>> think planets have geography), and possibly Avalon (possibly a
>> geographical name for the British Isles AFAIK)
>
>
> Xerces is a butterfly. It is not a misspelling of Xerxes (the person)
>
According to http://www.xerces.org/Xerces.htm
"The French entomologist Boisduval named the butterfly for King Xerxes,
but retained the French spelling, Xerces."
[ runs quickly away to put another coat of paint on the bikeshed ]
--
Jeremy
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by Ted Leung <tw...@sauria.com>.
On 12/1/03 10:00 AM, David Jencks wrote:
> Not to mention Xerces (definitely a person) and Alexandria (city in
> Egypt), Merlin (religious and possibly a person's name), Pluto
> (religious and possibly a geographical place, depending on whether you
> think planets have geography), and possibly Avalon (possibly a
> geographical name for the British Isles AFAIK)
Xerces is a butterfly. It is not a misspelling of Xerxes (the person)
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by David Jencks <da...@coredevelopers.net>.
On Monday, December 1, 2003, at 08:06 AM, Sam Ruby wrote:
> <snip>
>> Then we have to prevent such discussions in the future by setting
>> clearer rules. Ideas?
>> Possible addition:
>> "The name should not be a name of a person, geographical entity, of
>> religious nature or generally insulting. Since the definition of
>> 'insulting' can vary from place to place, please post the name on the
>> lists for some time so that others can say if it has problems in some
>> ciltures."
>
> By these guidelines, Jakarta should be renamed.
Not to mention Xerces (definitely a person) and Alexandria (city in
Egypt), Merlin (religious and possibly a person's name), Pluto
(religious and possibly a geographical place, depending on whether you
think planets have geography), and possibly Avalon (possibly a
geographical name for the British Isles AFAIK)
>
/**********************************
* David Jencks
* Partner
* Core Developers Network
* http://www.coredevelopers.net
**********************************/
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"Geronimo" Project; was Official Name
Posted by Vic Cekvenich <ce...@basebeans.com>.
Sam Ruby wrote:
<SNIP>
>
> Put in tangible terms, I would much prefer to see a incubator puruse a
> vote of [no] confidence in the Geronimo PPC than to have the incubator
> continue to debate the name of the project.
>
That would clear up a lot.
+1 from a non-voter.
.V
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by Aaron Bannert <aa...@clove.org>.
On Tue, Dec 02, 2003 at 07:28:09AM +0100, Andreas Kuckartz wrote:
> Aaron Bannert wrote:
> > On Mon, Dec 01, 2003 at 12:04:46PM -0500, Sam Ruby wrote:
> >> Put in tangible terms, I would much prefer to see a incubator puruse a
> >> vote of [no] confidence in the Geronimo PPC than to have the incubator
> >> continue to debate the name of the project.
> > Calling this a bikeshed is hypocritical. If you don't care about
> > the discussion, then don't participate.
>
> The thread did not start as a discussion but as an explicit call for votes.
>
> Have a look at the subject. There is a "[VOTE]" in it. The first mail said:
> "Please vote on one
> of the following choices". Aaron Bannert should remember that. He wrote the
> very first mail.
>
> So the topic obviously has already changed. Sam Ruby legitimately suggested
> that it changes again.
I shouldn't have said it was hypocritical, that was rude of me. I was
upset with what I perceived to be a tone that discouraged others from
voicing their opinions.
-aaron
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by Andreas Kuckartz <A....@ping.de>.
Aaron Bannert wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 01, 2003 at 12:04:46PM -0500, Sam Ruby wrote:
>> Put in tangible terms, I would much prefer to see a incubator puruse a
>> vote of [no] confidence in the Geronimo PPC than to have the incubator
>> continue to debate the name of the project.
> Calling this a bikeshed is hypocritical. If you don't care about
> the discussion, then don't participate.
The thread did not start as a discussion but as an explicit call for votes.
Have a look at the subject. There is a "[VOTE]" in it. The first mail said:
"Please vote on one
of the following choices". Aaron Bannert should remember that. He wrote the
very first mail.
So the topic obviously has already changed. Sam Ruby legitimately suggested
that it changes again.
Cheers,
Andreas
BTW: Before seeing this thread I did not know what a "bikeshed" is. Now I
know.
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by Aaron Bannert <aa...@clove.org>.
On Mon, Dec 01, 2003 at 12:04:46PM -0500, Sam Ruby wrote:
> Put in tangible terms, I would much prefer to see a incubator puruse a
> vote of [no] confidence in the Geronimo PPC than to have the incubator
> continue to debate the name of the project.
There is no Geronimo PMC.
The mere fact that the project is still in Incubation means that
we aren't confident yet in the project's ability to survive on its own.
The only reason this vote came up was because I didn't want people
to spend their great efforts making cool logos and working on all this
stuff around the name "Geronimo" when at the end of it all we'd decide
they couldn't keep the name.
Calling this a bikeshed is hypocritical. If you don't care about
the discussion, then don't participate. Please don't discourage
those of us who care about the work that is going on in incubated
projects from doing what we think is right. I think what's right
is getting a final signoff on the name, or letting them pick a new
name, and getting on with life.
-aaron
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>.
Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
>>I very much like the government model that the ASF board operates on.
>>It does not meddle in PMC decisions. If the board does not like the way
>>some project is operating - it typically has only one rather blunt
>>instrument to use: disband the PMC. This has the nice side benefit as
>>it encourages the use of diplomacy over force as typically the only way
>>a vote to disband a PMC would pass is if it presented a clear and
>>present danger to the ASF.
>
> So has the board ever been pleased with the way the incubator is running
> things?
>
> You're on the board Sam, are you still pleased with your decision to support
> the incubator?
Does what I envisioned and what I voted for exactly match what I see
executing in practice? No. That's not surprising, as very few of us
can predict the future with unerring accuracy.
Does the incubator PMC present a clear and present danger to the ASF. No.
What I envisioned was more of a central clearing house for legal
pedigree of donations, coupled with a set of eager ambassadors to go out
and observe and participate in fledgling projects in situo. Those are
goals I still very much believe in. And the PPMC proposal goes a long
way towards addressing this.
Put in tangible terms, I would much prefer to see a incubator puruse a
vote of [no] confidence in the Geronimo PPC than to have the incubator
continue to debate the name of the project.
- Sam Ruby
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
> I very much like the government model that the ASF board operates on.
> It does not meddle in PMC decisions. If the board does not like the way
> some project is operating - it typically has only one rather blunt
> instrument to use: disband the PMC. This has the nice side benefit as
> it encourages the use of diplomacy over force as typically the only way
> a vote to disband a PMC would pass is if it presented a clear and
> present danger to the ASF.
>
So has the board ever been pleased with the way the incubator is running
things?
You're on the board Sam, are you still pleased with your decision to support
the incubator?
> - Sam Ruby
>
>
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--
Andrew C. Oliver
http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp
Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI
http://jakarta.apache.org/poi
For Java and Excel, Got POI?
The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost
definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its
general membership. In fact they probably most definitively disagree with
everything espoused in the above email.
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>.
Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
>
> Sam Ruby wrote:
> ...
>
>> 1) Have the incubator PMC identify a clear set of constraints that
>> apply to *all* names. Vote on them, document them, and move on.
>
>
> Right. What is our policy?
>
> ATM here is our rule:
> "
> Make sure that the requested project name does not already exist and
> check www.nameprotect.com to be sure that the name is not already
> trademarked for an existing software product.
> "
>
> A search there shows up this that is mildly related to us: "Advertising
> and Business" -> seems ok
>
> This said, it's evident to me that this is not enough.
Why? It seems OK to me.
> The only fact that we are discussing such a trivial issue so much is a
> *strong* indication that the name must change, or that at least the PPMC
> must decide on this in full autonomy.
Either that, or it is a classic bikeshed:
http://www.unixguide.net/freebsd/faq/16.19.shtml
> Then we have to prevent such discussions in the future by setting
> clearer rules. Ideas?
>
> Possible addition:
>
> "The name should not be a name of a person, geographical entity, of
> religious nature or generally insulting. Since the definition of
> 'insulting' can vary from place to place, please post the name on the
> lists for some time so that others can say if it has problems in some
> ciltures."
By these guidelines, Jakarta should be renamed.
>> 2) Identify the PPMC who gets to name this project - and hold them
>> accountable for their decision.
>
> We are not deciding on the name but on the need or not to have a name
> change. In case for a name change, this will surely be the case.
At which point, they will be autonomous until the Incubator PMC decides
that the new name offends somebody.
I would very much prefer that this be turned around. Instead of the
incubator PMC voting on and taking responsibility for rejecting the name
Geronimo, establish a PPMC and have the concerned individuals make their
case to the people who are empowered to make that decision.
I very much like the government model that the ASF board operates on.
It does not meddle in PMC decisions. If the board does not like the way
some project is operating - it typically has only one rather blunt
instrument to use: disband the PMC. This has the nice side benefit as
it encourages the use of diplomacy over force as typically the only way
a vote to disband a PMC would pass is if it presented a clear and
present danger to the ASF.
- Sam Ruby
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
Sam Ruby wrote:
...
> 1) Have the incubator PMC identify a clear set of constraints that apply
> to *all* names. Vote on them, document them, and move on.
Right. What is our policy?
ATM here is our rule:
"
Make sure that the requested project name does not already exist and
check www.nameprotect.com to be sure that the name is not already
trademarked for an existing software product.
"
A search there shows up this that is mildly related to us: "Advertising
and Business" -> seems ok
This said, it's evident to me that this is not enough.
The only fact that we are discussing such a trivial issue so much is a
*strong* indication that the name must change, or that at least the PPMC
must decide on this in full autonomy.
Then we have to prevent such discussions in the future by setting
clearer rules. Ideas?
Possible addition:
"The name should not be a name of a person, geographical entity, of
religious nature or generally insulting. Since the definition of
'insulting' can vary from place to place, please post the name on the
lists for some time so that others can say if it has problems in some
ciltures."
> 2) Identify the PPMC who gets to name this project - and hold them
> accountable for their decision.
We are not deciding on the name but on the need or not to have a name
change. In case for a name change, this will surely be the case.
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>.
Sander Striker wrote:
> On Wed, 2003-12-03 at 09:29, Bruce Snyder wrote:
>
>>This one time, at band camp, Berin Lautenbach said:
>>
>>BL>> 2) Identify the PPMC who gets to name this project - and hold them
>>BL>> accountable for their decision.
>>BL>
>>BL>+1. I think the Incubator PMC is in a kind of unique position. We are
>>BL>trying to ensure that new projects/new committers in new projects are
>>BL>working in "The Apache Way". So for me, the Incubator PMC shouldn't
>>BL>actually be voting to make the decision for the incubating project. It
>>BL>should simply be checking that the decision has been made appropriately.
>>BL> If anyone in the PMC vetoes a PPMC decision it should be on the basis
>>BL>that the decision does not meet the ASF requirements, not on the basis
>>BL>that we do/don't like a name (for example).
>>BL>
>>BL>Anything else takes the decision away from the project in inubation, and
>>BL>I'm not sure I see how that is fostering the Apache way.
>>
>>IMO, Berin's comments are exactly what I was thinking.
>
> Do note that there were votes from the members, not neccessarily (only)
> from the Incubator PMC.
IMHO, the notion of fostering "The Apache Way" vs. making decisions for
others applies to members too.
> Sander
>
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by Sander Striker <st...@apache.org>.
On Wed, 2003-12-03 at 09:29, Bruce Snyder wrote:
> This one time, at band camp, Berin Lautenbach said:
>
> BL>> 2) Identify the PPMC who gets to name this project - and hold them
> BL>> accountable for their decision.
> BL>
> BL>+1. I think the Incubator PMC is in a kind of unique position. We are
> BL>trying to ensure that new projects/new committers in new projects are
> BL>working in "The Apache Way". So for me, the Incubator PMC shouldn't
> BL>actually be voting to make the decision for the incubating project. It
> BL>should simply be checking that the decision has been made appropriately.
> BL> If anyone in the PMC vetoes a PPMC decision it should be on the basis
> BL>that the decision does not meet the ASF requirements, not on the basis
> BL>that we do/don't like a name (for example).
> BL>
> BL>Anything else takes the decision away from the project in inubation, and
> BL>I'm not sure I see how that is fostering the Apache way.
>
> IMO, Berin's comments are exactly what I was thinking.
Do note that there were votes from the members, not neccessarily (only)
from the Incubator PMC.
Sander
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by Bruce Snyder <fe...@frii.com>.
This one time, at band camp, Berin Lautenbach said:
BL>> 2) Identify the PPMC who gets to name this project - and hold them
BL>> accountable for their decision.
BL>
BL>+1. I think the Incubator PMC is in a kind of unique position. We are
BL>trying to ensure that new projects/new committers in new projects are
BL>working in "The Apache Way". So for me, the Incubator PMC shouldn't
BL>actually be voting to make the decision for the incubating project. It
BL>should simply be checking that the decision has been made appropriately.
BL> If anyone in the PMC vetoes a PPMC decision it should be on the basis
BL>that the decision does not meet the ASF requirements, not on the basis
BL>that we do/don't like a name (for example).
BL>
BL>Anything else takes the decision away from the project in inubation, and
BL>I'm not sure I see how that is fostering the Apache way.
IMO, Berin's comments are exactly what I was thinking.
Bruce
--
perl -e 'print unpack("u30","<0G)U8V4\@4VYY9&5R\"F9E<G)E=\$\!F<FEI+F-O;0\`\`");'
The Castor Project
http://www.castor.org/
Apache Geronimo
http://incubator.apache.org/projects/geronimo.html
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Re: [VOTE] Official Name for "Geronimo" Project
Posted by Berin Lautenbach <be...@ozemail.com.au>.
Sam Ruby wrote:
> The inevitable result of these two factors is an interminable discussion
> on the naming of a project.
>
> IMHO, the right answer is *not* to buck this up to the incubator PMC, or
> to members, or *gasp* to the board. A much better approach would be:
>
> 1) Have the incubator PMC identify a clear set of constraints that apply
> to *all* names. Vote on them, document them, and move on.
>
Which should also be the minimum requirements for all names whether in
the Incubator or without.
> 2) Identify the PPMC who gets to name this project - and hold them
> accountable for their decision.
+1. I think the Incubator PMC is in a kind of unique position. We are
trying to ensure that new projects/new committers in new projects are
working in "The Apache Way". So for me, the Incubator PMC shouldn't
actually be voting to make the decision for the incubating project. It
should simply be checking that the decision has been made appropriately.
If anyone in the PMC vetoes a PPMC decision it should be on the basis
that the decision does not meet the ASF requirements, not on the basis
that we do/don't like a name (for example).
Anything else takes the decision away from the project in inubation, and
I'm not sure I see how that is fostering the Apache way.
Cheers,
Berin
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