Tracking Jakarta Software Dependencies

["Daniel F. Savarese" <df...@savarese.org>]

Hi All,

I and other Jakarta committers received an email today from a
developer at Wachovia pointing out how difficult it is to discover
library and JDK dependencies for Jakarta subprojects as a whole,
even though his main focus was Commons.  I couldn't really dispute
his observation upon trying to find dependency information for a
couple of software releases.  Would it be useful to start a Wiki
page containing a table where after each software release, we list
the library and JDK dependencies/compatibility for the release?
Or would it be better to simply agree on a common place in each
subproject's Web page hierarchy to list that information?
Interest for easy access to this information appears to be coming
from corporate developers using older JDK versions who are having
a hard time figuring out what's compatible with what.

daniel


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Re: Tracking Jakarta Software Dependencies

[Martin van den Bemt <ml...@mvdb.net>]

You have scope and optional as dependency parameters.
The combination of the 2 can provide what you are thinking about. Although not sure the dependency 
report will make a separate list out of them. (but this is better for discussing on the maven user 
list I guess)

Mvgr,
Martin

Henning Schmiedehausen wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> you just touched a raw nerve with me... :-)
> 
> As long as maven (at least maven 1, don't know about maven 2 yet) 
> doesn't differentiate between
> 
> * Compile dependencies  (mandatory and optional)
> * Runtime dependencies (mandatory and optional)
> 
> then IMHO the "dependencies" page not really useful.
> 
> A small example:
> 
> Velocity has two optional dependencies: java.util.logging.Logger and 
> javax.sql.DataSource.
> 
> - If you don't have them at compile time, two classes will not be 
> compiled. You will never miss them --> No runtime dependency. Any tool 
> analyzing a jar built without these present at compile time will ever 
> pick up this dependency.
> 
> - If you have them at compile time, you will get two additional classes 
> in the jar. One allows you to log into jdk 1.4, the other to load 
> templates from a JDBC data source.
> 
> - If you have these two additional classes in your velocity jar, you get 
> java.util.logging.Logger and javax.sql.DataSource as *optional* runtime 
> dependencies. You don't need them *unless* you want to use one of the 
> scenarios described above. But the core functionality of Velocity, which 
>  99% of all users use, *DO NOT NEED THEM*.
> 
> However, in most of the Velocity documentation you will read
> 
> "Velocity requires the jdbc_2.0.jar" And find it listed in "dependency 
> lists". And bazillions of Velocity based applications drag this 
> completely unneeded jar around. Which sucks. Hard. No JDK since 1.4 
> needs this.
> 
> If you look at a project like Turbine or Struts, you get drowned in 
> optional, compile and runtime dependencies. Maintaining these by hand is 
> a nightmare and doing it automatically will not list what is optional 
> and what is not.
> 
> What is basically needed is:
> 
> - What are the core dependencies?
> - What are the additional dependencies for the optional "bell, whistle".
> - What are the minimum compile dependencies for building?
> - What can be optionally included for compiling.
> 
> These requirements have been recognized a long time ago. I don't know 
> any build tool that is able to do this automatically. I'd love to be 
> educated that e.g. maven 2 can do this.
> 
>     Best regards
>         Henning
> 
> 
> 
> Ortwin Glück schrieb:
>> Dependencies: the Maven generated page on the project site lists them. I
>> strongly discourage manually maintaining them in a separate location.
>>
>> JDK version: what a mess. IMHO this is THE information that is missing
>> on almost ANY project page out there.
>>
>> As a user I expect this information close to where I obtain the
>> artifact. That is: on the download page and in the README.
>>
>> So let's put the JDK compat information into these places.
>>
>> Ortwin
>>
>> Daniel F. Savarese wrote:
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> I and other Jakarta committers received an email today from a
>>> developer at Wachovia pointing out how difficult it is to discover
>>> library and JDK dependencies for Jakarta subprojects as a whole,
>>> even though his main focus was Commons.  I couldn't really dispute
>>> his observation upon trying to find dependency information for a
>>> couple of software releases.  Would it be useful to start a Wiki
>>> page containing a table where after each software release, we list
>>> the library and JDK dependencies/compatibility for the release?
>>> Or would it be better to simply agree on a common place in each
>>> subproject's Web page hierarchy to list that information?
>>> Interest for easy access to this information appears to be coming
>>> from corporate developers using older JDK versions who are having
>>> a hard time figuring out what's compatible with what.
>>>
>>> daniel
>>>
>>>
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>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
>>>
>>
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> 
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Re: Tracking Jakarta Software Dependencies

[Henning Schmiedehausen <hp...@intermeta.de>]

Hi,

you just touched a raw nerve with me... :-)

As long as maven (at least maven 1, don't know about maven 2 yet) 
doesn't differentiate between

* Compile dependencies  (mandatory and optional)
* Runtime dependencies (mandatory and optional)

then IMHO the "dependencies" page not really useful.

A small example:

Velocity has two optional dependencies: java.util.logging.Logger and 
javax.sql.DataSource.

- If you don't have them at compile time, two classes will not be 
compiled. You will never miss them --> No runtime dependency. Any tool 
analyzing a jar built without these present at compile time will ever 
pick up this dependency.

- If you have them at compile time, you will get two additional classes 
in the jar. One allows you to log into jdk 1.4, the other to load 
templates from a JDBC data source.

- If you have these two additional classes in your velocity jar, you get 
java.util.logging.Logger and javax.sql.DataSource as *optional* runtime 
dependencies. You don't need them *unless* you want to use one of the 
scenarios described above. But the core functionality of Velocity, which 
  99% of all users use, *DO NOT NEED THEM*.

However, in most of the Velocity documentation you will read

"Velocity requires the jdbc_2.0.jar" And find it listed in "dependency 
lists". And bazillions of Velocity based applications drag this 
completely unneeded jar around. Which sucks. Hard. No JDK since 1.4 
needs this.

If you look at a project like Turbine or Struts, you get drowned in 
optional, compile and runtime dependencies. Maintaining these by hand is 
a nightmare and doing it automatically will not list what is optional 
and what is not.

What is basically needed is:

- What are the core dependencies?
- What are the additional dependencies for the optional "bell, whistle".
- What are the minimum compile dependencies for building?
- What can be optionally included for compiling.

These requirements have been recognized a long time ago. I don't know 
any build tool that is able to do this automatically. I'd love to be 
educated that e.g. maven 2 can do this.

	Best regards
		Henning



Ortwin Glück schrieb:
> Dependencies: the Maven generated page on the project site lists them. I
> strongly discourage manually maintaining them in a separate location.
> 
> JDK version: what a mess. IMHO this is THE information that is missing
> on almost ANY project page out there.
> 
> As a user I expect this information close to where I obtain the
> artifact. That is: on the download page and in the README.
> 
> So let's put the JDK compat information into these places.
> 
> Ortwin
> 
> Daniel F. Savarese wrote:
>> Hi All,
>>
>> I and other Jakarta committers received an email today from a
>> developer at Wachovia pointing out how difficult it is to discover
>> library and JDK dependencies for Jakarta subprojects as a whole,
>> even though his main focus was Commons.  I couldn't really dispute
>> his observation upon trying to find dependency information for a
>> couple of software releases.  Would it be useful to start a Wiki
>> page containing a table where after each software release, we list
>> the library and JDK dependencies/compatibility for the release?
>> Or would it be better to simply agree on a common place in each
>> subproject's Web page hierarchy to list that information?
>> Interest for easy access to this information appears to be coming
>> from corporate developers using older JDK versions who are having
>> a hard time figuring out what's compatible with what.
>>
>> daniel
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
>>
> 
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
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Re: Tracking Jakarta Software Dependencies

[Ortwin Glück <od...@odi.ch>]

Dependencies: the Maven generated page on the project site lists them. I
strongly discourage manually maintaining them in a separate location.

JDK version: what a mess. IMHO this is THE information that is missing
on almost ANY project page out there.

As a user I expect this information close to where I obtain the
artifact. That is: on the download page and in the README.

So let's put the JDK compat information into these places.

Ortwin

Daniel F. Savarese wrote:
> Hi All,
> 
> I and other Jakarta committers received an email today from a
> developer at Wachovia pointing out how difficult it is to discover
> library and JDK dependencies for Jakarta subprojects as a whole,
> even though his main focus was Commons.  I couldn't really dispute
> his observation upon trying to find dependency information for a
> couple of software releases.  Would it be useful to start a Wiki
> page containing a table where after each software release, we list
> the library and JDK dependencies/compatibility for the release?
> Or would it be better to simply agree on a common place in each
> subproject's Web page hierarchy to list that information?
> Interest for easy access to this information appears to be coming
> from corporate developers using older JDK versions who are having
> a hard time figuring out what's compatible with what.
> 
> daniel
> 
> 
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
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> 

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Re: Tracking Jakarta Software Dependencies

[Will Glass-Husain <wg...@forio.com>]

I've also seen this problem.  Last year the question about JDK version
compatibility came up on the mailing list -- it turned out that it
wasn't really clear even internally.  (I think we documented this
somewhere as JDK 1.3 for runtime, 1.4 for compiling).  But I bet a lot
of this is oral documentation or just assumed.

WILL

On 9/12/06, Daniel F. Savarese <df...@savarese.org> wrote:
>
> In message <db...@mail.gmail.com>, "Yoav
> Shapira" writes:
> >(e.g. build.properties).  I'm hesitant to have a separate web page
> >just to list dependencies unless that page is auto-generated (as is
>
> I agree.  I'm sure there's a way to autogenerate a master table for
> all the mavenized projects, but since I'm not volunteering to do it,
> I'm not going to suggest it.  I haven't seen anyone listing their JDK
> requirements in the maven dependency report.  Could we then just ask
> mavenized projects to add their minimum JDK requirement to the dependencies
> report (I've never tried entering a 'fake' entry and ant projects
> to add the info to their docs if they don't already have it?
>
> These situations are always weird for me since I'm not the one
> experiencing the actual issue, yet have been asked to raise it.
> However, I think it's a reasonable reminder that despite all the
> progress Jakarta has made, users still have problems navigating
> our documentation.
>
> daniel
>
>
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
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>
>


-- 
Forio Business Simulations

Will Glass-Husain
wglass@forio.com
www.forio.com

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Re: Tracking Jakarta Software Dependencies

["Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>]

I thought there already was a standard, at least as far as dependencies
go: under Project Info...Dependencies?  I recall asking about this a few
months back and was told all the Commons projects at least used this
convention... Maybe this isn't auto-generated?  I remember at the time I
said I thought it should be a bit easier to find, but regardless of that,
if it was a standard all projects (not just commons) followed, would that
suffice?

Frank


-- 
Frank W. Zammetti
Founder and Chief Software Architect
Omnytex Technologies
http://www.omnytex.com
AIM/Yahoo: fzammetti
MSN: fzammetti@hotmail.com
Author of "Practical Ajax Projects With Java Technology"
 (2006, Apress, ISBN 1-59059-695-1)
Java Web Parts - http://javawebparts.sourceforge.net
 Supplying the wheel, so you don't have to reinvent it!

On Tue, September 12, 2006 5:28 pm, Daniel F. Savarese wrote:
>
> In message <db...@mail.gmail.com>,
> "Yoav
> Shapira" writes:
>>(e.g. build.properties).  I'm hesitant to have a separate web page
>>just to list dependencies unless that page is auto-generated (as is
>
> I agree.  I'm sure there's a way to autogenerate a master table for
> all the mavenized projects, but since I'm not volunteering to do it,
> I'm not going to suggest it.  I haven't seen anyone listing their JDK
> requirements in the maven dependency report.  Could we then just ask
> mavenized projects to add their minimum JDK requirement to the
> dependencies
> report (I've never tried entering a 'fake' entry and ant projects
> to add the info to their docs if they don't already have it?
>
> These situations are always weird for me since I'm not the one
> experiencing the actual issue, yet have been asked to raise it.
> However, I think it's a reasonable reminder that despite all the
> progress Jakarta has made, users still have problems navigating
> our documentation.
>
> daniel
>
>
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
>


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Re: Tracking Jakarta Software Dependencies

[Yoav Shapira <yo...@apache.org>]

Hi,
Projects that use Maven get this for free in the dependency report
(and people can just look at the POM).  Projects that use Ant might
simply direct their users to look in the relevant build script or file
(e.g. build.properties).  I'm hesitant to have a separate web page
just to list dependencies unless that page is auto-generated (as is
the case with maven), because that's two places to keep in sync when
developing, and I can easily see how we'd forget to update the web
page...

Yoav

On 9/12/06, Daniel F. Savarese <df...@savarese.org> wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
> I and other Jakarta committers received an email today from a
> developer at Wachovia pointing out how difficult it is to discover
> library and JDK dependencies for Jakarta subprojects as a whole,
> even though his main focus was Commons.  I couldn't really dispute
> his observation upon trying to find dependency information for a
> couple of software releases.  Would it be useful to start a Wiki
> page containing a table where after each software release, we list
> the library and JDK dependencies/compatibility for the release?
> Or would it be better to simply agree on a common place in each
> subproject's Web page hierarchy to list that information?
> Interest for easy access to this information appears to be coming
> from corporate developers using older JDK versions who are having
> a hard time figuring out what's compatible with what.
>
> daniel
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
>

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