Re: Collecting Proposed changes

[Brett Porter <br...@gmail.com>]

Some thoughts:

# [ ] - Any proposal should hit general@incubator first, No PR before that.
# [ ] - Any PR should be vetted by PRC, No Excuses.

Agree, for the Apache side of things. I'm not sure we can stop
companies doing what they are going to do, but we can certainly say
that that they shouldn't be doing so and list the reasons why (because
it mighr not be accepted, might have a different name, etc).

Also, please define "PR". Recent examples seem to think that an
individual member of the proposal's personal blog is PR, which I'm not
sure I agree with.

# [ ] - A sponsoring PMC should hold their VOTE to sponsor a proposal
or IP Clearance 72 hours *AFTER* it is posted on general@incubator

Seems back to front to me. How can you propose anything to the
incubator that you haven't decided you want to do?

- Brett

On 1/1/06, Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Folks,
>
> Please review the items here:
> http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/ProposedChanges
>
> Please feel free to add/modify/delete or start a new thread here on
> any issue that you care about. Let's give it a week and then ask the
> incubator PMC to VOTE on items on that page.
>
> thanks,
> dims
>
> --
> Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>

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Re: Collecting Proposed changes

[Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com>]

Brett,

Am not sure that the last point will fly with the board :)

Yes, i'd be worried too :) [*if the WS PMC had vetted and voted and
still produced the same proposal*]

+1 to base web site content around the questions like you mentioned.
Can you please help write them up?

The worries that i see from folks (including me!) are:
- Too fast unfettered growth (how to avoid problems like too much
stuff in jakarta) and how to scale infra and new project oversight.
- Rubber stamping of proposals with little effort diligence by PMC (am
not saying it has happened already, but the fear is there).

One question i have is, what do we mean by a community? What does a
proposal mean when it says that it is trying to build a community (Say
ServiceMix to pick one, you can choose Synapse or Tuscany too if you
want to pick examples) Does it include people working on a specific
problem area already in Apache? (Example WS-Folks for ServiceMix and
Geronimo folks for Tuscany). What does one do when a PMC (say Geronimo
PMC) picks up a project that is by definition being worked on by
another PMC (Say BPEL), the existing folks are shut out of the
proposal and won't know about it till it hits general@incubator and
even then they can't join because another PMC has OK'ed it and the
doors are shut. Some cynics might say that the AJAX proposal was
hurried to become a "placeholder" to shut off competing proposals. So
again, what do we mean by a community? and how do we ensure and
encourage participation by folks and to make a level playing field
without politics. Do you see the problems?

thanks,
dims

On 1/3/06, Brett Porter <br...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Sure, but your last point (having the incubator also approve an
> external project coming to a PMC) was designed to take care of that.
>
> I agree, it worked well with Tuscany. However, in some cases it makes
> more sense for a PMC to get their house in order first. As long as
> everybody gets involved before anything gets started/promoted/etc. I'd
> be surprised (and worried) if the WS PMC had vetted and voted on this
> first and still produced the same proposal as originally worded.
>
> In reality, what is really needed is more open communication between
> the incubator / membership-at-large and PMCs when new projects are
> coming in.
>
> I really think this should be based around a set of use cases rather
> than sweeping changes to general policy. Its going to be a lot
> different depending on how much existing Apache community there is,
> whether its based around existing code or just an idea, etc.
>
> * What to do if you want to bring existing code into your current TLP
>
> * what to do if you want to move an existing community to your TLP
>
> * What to do if you want to bring an existing codebase/community to
> Apache as its own TLP
>
> * What to do if you want to start a new project at Apache.
>
> Keep it simple, and focus on how the incubator can help a project do
> what they need to in a way that benefits the ASF. My greatest concern
> in all the recent discussions is that there seems to be a distrust of
> PMCs to do the right thing.
>
> Just my 2 cents,
> - Brett
>
> On 1/3/06, Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Brett,
> >
> > Let's take Tuscany, If the WS PMC had voted on the proposal before it
> > hit general@incubator, it would have probably passed the pmc VOTE. and
> > incubator would have had to accept it as-is. however fortunately, the
> > proposal was sent directly to g@i and Roy (and others) had quite a few
> > problems with it which got fixed. So it was a good decision in hind
> > sight that the people who proposed tuscany went to general@incubator
> > first.
> >
> > thanks,
> > dims
> >
> > On 1/2/06, Brett Porter <br...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Some thoughts:
> > >
> > > # [ ] - Any proposal should hit general@incubator first, No PR before that.
> > > # [ ] - Any PR should be vetted by PRC, No Excuses.
> > >
> > > Agree, for the Apache side of things. I'm not sure we can stop
> > > companies doing what they are going to do, but we can certainly say
> > > that that they shouldn't be doing so and list the reasons why (because
> > > it mighr not be accepted, might have a different name, etc).
> > >
> > > Also, please define "PR". Recent examples seem to think that an
> > > individual member of the proposal's personal blog is PR, which I'm not
> > > sure I agree with.
> > >
> > > # [ ] - A sponsoring PMC should hold their VOTE to sponsor a proposal
> > > or IP Clearance 72 hours *AFTER* it is posted on general@incubator
> > >
> > > Seems back to front to me. How can you propose anything to the
> > > incubator that you haven't decided you want to do?
> > >
> > > - Brett
> > >
> > > On 1/1/06, Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > Folks,
> > > >
> > > > Please review the items here:
> > > > http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/ProposedChanges
> > > >
> > > > Please feel free to add/modify/delete or start a new thread here on
> > > > any issue that you care about. Let's give it a week and then ask the
> > > > incubator PMC to VOTE on items on that page.
> > > >
> > > > thanks,
> > > > dims
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/
> > > >
> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> > > > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >
> >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>


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Re: Collecting Proposed changes

[Brett Porter <br...@gmail.com>]

Sure, but your last point (having the incubator also approve an
external project coming to a PMC) was designed to take care of that.

I agree, it worked well with Tuscany. However, in some cases it makes
more sense for a PMC to get their house in order first. As long as
everybody gets involved before anything gets started/promoted/etc. I'd
be surprised (and worried) if the WS PMC had vetted and voted on this
first and still produced the same proposal as originally worded.

In reality, what is really needed is more open communication between
the incubator / membership-at-large and PMCs when new projects are
coming in.

I really think this should be based around a set of use cases rather
than sweeping changes to general policy. Its going to be a lot
different depending on how much existing Apache community there is,
whether its based around existing code or just an idea, etc.

* What to do if you want to bring existing code into your current TLP

* what to do if you want to move an existing community to your TLP

* What to do if you want to bring an existing codebase/community to
Apache as its own TLP

* What to do if you want to start a new project at Apache.

Keep it simple, and focus on how the incubator can help a project do
what they need to in a way that benefits the ASF. My greatest concern
in all the recent discussions is that there seems to be a distrust of
PMCs to do the right thing.

Just my 2 cents,
- Brett

On 1/3/06, Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Brett,
>
> Let's take Tuscany, If the WS PMC had voted on the proposal before it
> hit general@incubator, it would have probably passed the pmc VOTE. and
> incubator would have had to accept it as-is. however fortunately, the
> proposal was sent directly to g@i and Roy (and others) had quite a few
> problems with it which got fixed. So it was a good decision in hind
> sight that the people who proposed tuscany went to general@incubator
> first.
>
> thanks,
> dims
>
> On 1/2/06, Brett Porter <br...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Some thoughts:
> >
> > # [ ] - Any proposal should hit general@incubator first, No PR before that.
> > # [ ] - Any PR should be vetted by PRC, No Excuses.
> >
> > Agree, for the Apache side of things. I'm not sure we can stop
> > companies doing what they are going to do, but we can certainly say
> > that that they shouldn't be doing so and list the reasons why (because
> > it mighr not be accepted, might have a different name, etc).
> >
> > Also, please define "PR". Recent examples seem to think that an
> > individual member of the proposal's personal blog is PR, which I'm not
> > sure I agree with.
> >
> > # [ ] - A sponsoring PMC should hold their VOTE to sponsor a proposal
> > or IP Clearance 72 hours *AFTER* it is posted on general@incubator
> >
> > Seems back to front to me. How can you propose anything to the
> > incubator that you haven't decided you want to do?
> >
> > - Brett
> >
> > On 1/1/06, Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Folks,
> > >
> > > Please review the items here:
> > > http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/ProposedChanges
> > >
> > > Please feel free to add/modify/delete or start a new thread here on
> > > any issue that you care about. Let's give it a week and then ask the
> > > incubator PMC to VOTE on items on that page.
> > >
> > > thanks,
> > > dims
> > >
> > > --
> > > Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> > >
> > >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>

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Re: Collecting Proposed changes

[Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@pobox.com>]

Davanum Srinivas wrote:
> How does a PMC agree to sponsor a thing w/o a VOTE?

It wouldn't need an *Incuabtor PMC* vote.


> secondly, the guys who wrote the proposal asked me to check with WS
> PMC. why would i do that otherwise?

I understand.  I still don't think it needs WS sponsorship :)

geir

> 
> -- dims
> 
> On 1/3/06, Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@pobox.com> wrote:
> 
>>
>>Davanum Srinivas wrote:
>>
>>>Brett,
>>>
>>>Let's take Tuscany, If the WS PMC had voted on the proposal before it
>>>hit general@incubator, it would have probably passed the pmc VOTE.
>>
>>No - if the WS PMC was actually sponsoring it, it wouldn't need a PMC vote.
>>
>>  and
>>
>>>incubator would have had to accept it as-is. however fortunately, the
>>>proposal was sent directly to g@i and Roy (and others) had quite a few
>>>problems with it which got fixed. So it was a good decision in hind
>>>sight that the people who proposed tuscany went to general@incubator
>>>first.
>>>
>>
>>Because it wasn't a WS-sponsored project.  I still don't think it needs
>>to be WS sponsored :)
>>
>>geir
>>
>>
>>
>>>thanks,
>>>dims
>>>
>>>On 1/2/06, Brett Porter <br...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Some thoughts:
>>>>
>>>># [ ] - Any proposal should hit general@incubator first, No PR before that.
>>>># [ ] - Any PR should be vetted by PRC, No Excuses.
>>>>
>>>>Agree, for the Apache side of things. I'm not sure we can stop
>>>>companies doing what they are going to do, but we can certainly say
>>>>that that they shouldn't be doing so and list the reasons why (because
>>>>it mighr not be accepted, might have a different name, etc).
>>>>
>>>>Also, please define "PR". Recent examples seem to think that an
>>>>individual member of the proposal's personal blog is PR, which I'm not
>>>>sure I agree with.
>>>>
>>>># [ ] - A sponsoring PMC should hold their VOTE to sponsor a proposal
>>>>or IP Clearance 72 hours *AFTER* it is posted on general@incubator
>>>>
>>>>Seems back to front to me. How can you propose anything to the
>>>>incubator that you haven't decided you want to do?
>>>>
>>>>- Brett
>>>>
>>>>On 1/1/06, Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Folks,
>>>>>
>>>>>Please review the items here:
>>>>>http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/ProposedChanges
>>>>>
>>>>>Please feel free to add/modify/delete or start a new thread here on
>>>>>any issue that you care about. Let's give it a week and then ask the
>>>>>incubator PMC to VOTE on items on that page.
>>>>>
>>>>>thanks,
>>>>>dims
>>>>>
>>>>>--
>>>>>Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/
>>>>>
>>>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>>>For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>--
>>>Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/
>>>
>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>>For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>
>>>
>>
>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>>
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/
> 
> 

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Re: Collecting Proposed changes

[Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com>]

How does a PMC agree to sponsor a thing w/o a VOTE?

secondly, the guys who wrote the proposal asked me to check with WS
PMC. why would i do that otherwise?

-- dims

On 1/3/06, Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@pobox.com> wrote:
>
>
> Davanum Srinivas wrote:
> > Brett,
> >
> > Let's take Tuscany, If the WS PMC had voted on the proposal before it
> > hit general@incubator, it would have probably passed the pmc VOTE.
>
> No - if the WS PMC was actually sponsoring it, it wouldn't need a PMC vote.
>
>   and
> > incubator would have had to accept it as-is. however fortunately, the
> > proposal was sent directly to g@i and Roy (and others) had quite a few
> > problems with it which got fixed. So it was a good decision in hind
> > sight that the people who proposed tuscany went to general@incubator
> > first.
> >
>
> Because it wasn't a WS-sponsored project.  I still don't think it needs
> to be WS sponsored :)
>
> geir
>
>
> > thanks,
> > dims
> >
> > On 1/2/06, Brett Porter <br...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >>Some thoughts:
> >>
> >># [ ] - Any proposal should hit general@incubator first, No PR before that.
> >># [ ] - Any PR should be vetted by PRC, No Excuses.
> >>
> >>Agree, for the Apache side of things. I'm not sure we can stop
> >>companies doing what they are going to do, but we can certainly say
> >>that that they shouldn't be doing so and list the reasons why (because
> >>it mighr not be accepted, might have a different name, etc).
> >>
> >>Also, please define "PR". Recent examples seem to think that an
> >>individual member of the proposal's personal blog is PR, which I'm not
> >>sure I agree with.
> >>
> >># [ ] - A sponsoring PMC should hold their VOTE to sponsor a proposal
> >>or IP Clearance 72 hours *AFTER* it is posted on general@incubator
> >>
> >>Seems back to front to me. How can you propose anything to the
> >>incubator that you haven't decided you want to do?
> >>
> >>- Brett
> >>
> >>On 1/1/06, Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>>Folks,
> >>>
> >>>Please review the items here:
> >>>http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/ProposedChanges
> >>>
> >>>Please feel free to add/modify/delete or start a new thread here on
> >>>any issue that you care about. Let's give it a week and then ask the
> >>>incubator PMC to VOTE on items on that page.
> >>>
> >>>thanks,
> >>>dims
> >>>
> >>>--
> >>>Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/
> >>>
> >>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> >>>For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> >>For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >
> >
>
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>


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Re: Collecting Proposed changes

[Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@pobox.com>]

Davanum Srinivas wrote:
> Brett,
> 
> Let's take Tuscany, If the WS PMC had voted on the proposal before it
> hit general@incubator, it would have probably passed the pmc VOTE.

No - if the WS PMC was actually sponsoring it, it wouldn't need a PMC vote.

  and
> incubator would have had to accept it as-is. however fortunately, the
> proposal was sent directly to g@i and Roy (and others) had quite a few
> problems with it which got fixed. So it was a good decision in hind
> sight that the people who proposed tuscany went to general@incubator
> first.
>

Because it wasn't a WS-sponsored project.  I still don't think it needs 
to be WS sponsored :)

geir


> thanks,
> dims
> 
> On 1/2/06, Brett Porter <br...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>>Some thoughts:
>>
>># [ ] - Any proposal should hit general@incubator first, No PR before that.
>># [ ] - Any PR should be vetted by PRC, No Excuses.
>>
>>Agree, for the Apache side of things. I'm not sure we can stop
>>companies doing what they are going to do, but we can certainly say
>>that that they shouldn't be doing so and list the reasons why (because
>>it mighr not be accepted, might have a different name, etc).
>>
>>Also, please define "PR". Recent examples seem to think that an
>>individual member of the proposal's personal blog is PR, which I'm not
>>sure I agree with.
>>
>># [ ] - A sponsoring PMC should hold their VOTE to sponsor a proposal
>>or IP Clearance 72 hours *AFTER* it is posted on general@incubator
>>
>>Seems back to front to me. How can you propose anything to the
>>incubator that you haven't decided you want to do?
>>
>>- Brett
>>
>>On 1/1/06, Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Folks,
>>>
>>>Please review the items here:
>>>http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/ProposedChanges
>>>
>>>Please feel free to add/modify/delete or start a new thread here on
>>>any issue that you care about. Let's give it a week and then ask the
>>>incubator PMC to VOTE on items on that page.
>>>
>>>thanks,
>>>dims
>>>
>>>--
>>>Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/
>>>
>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>>For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>
>>>
>>
>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>>
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> 
> 

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Re: Collecting Proposed changes

[Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com>]

Brett,

Let's take Tuscany, If the WS PMC had voted on the proposal before it
hit general@incubator, it would have probably passed the pmc VOTE. and
incubator would have had to accept it as-is. however fortunately, the
proposal was sent directly to g@i and Roy (and others) had quite a few
problems with it which got fixed. So it was a good decision in hind
sight that the people who proposed tuscany went to general@incubator
first.

thanks,
dims

On 1/2/06, Brett Porter <br...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Some thoughts:
>
> # [ ] - Any proposal should hit general@incubator first, No PR before that.
> # [ ] - Any PR should be vetted by PRC, No Excuses.
>
> Agree, for the Apache side of things. I'm not sure we can stop
> companies doing what they are going to do, but we can certainly say
> that that they shouldn't be doing so and list the reasons why (because
> it mighr not be accepted, might have a different name, etc).
>
> Also, please define "PR". Recent examples seem to think that an
> individual member of the proposal's personal blog is PR, which I'm not
> sure I agree with.
>
> # [ ] - A sponsoring PMC should hold their VOTE to sponsor a proposal
> or IP Clearance 72 hours *AFTER* it is posted on general@incubator
>
> Seems back to front to me. How can you propose anything to the
> incubator that you haven't decided you want to do?
>
> - Brett
>
> On 1/1/06, Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Folks,
> >
> > Please review the items here:
> > http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/ProposedChanges
> >
> > Please feel free to add/modify/delete or start a new thread here on
> > any issue that you care about. Let's give it a week and then ask the
> > incubator PMC to VOTE on items on that page.
> >
> > thanks,
> > dims
> >
> > --
> > Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >
> >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
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>
>


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