You are viewing a plain text version of this content. The canonical link for it is here.
Posted to dev@cocoon.apache.org by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org> on 2003/01/27 11:47:03 UTC
Personal Attacks [was Re: ChartTransformer 0.0.4 urge a commiter!]
Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
>
> Torsten Curdt wrote:
>
>>> I thought contributing to Cocoon to be easier... much easier :(
>
>
> I have put much time and effort in trying to make a charting solution.
> I think it's bad that he is not willing at all to collaborate. He says
> he wants "his" code in cocoon.
>
> Wings was based on my code. Then Keiron Liddle donated his stuff and we
> switched. Then JCharts became APL compatible and we switched again.
> Now this guy comes up *totally irrespective* of anything that has
> happened. Look at the class. It loads tags from xml and feeds them in
> JFreeChart. And he cannot integrate with Wings. It's ridiculous.
>
> He is not willing to collaborate in any way, and I don't like it.
>
> As for LGPL, it's really something we should not put in our CVS.
>
> Finally look at the patches in bugzilla. Their authors should be the
> ones saying the above.
Nicola, you crossed the line.
You are generating waves of negative emotions on this list due to code
ownership. I cannot believe this is happening again.
From where I stand, Luca (and others) had a problem for their
customers, solved it in the way they found better then decided that to
say something about it here. Somebody else proposed it for inclusion in CVS.
Then, later, Luca was also honest enough to admit his ego would be proud
of having some of his code into the codebase.
Tell me: wasn't this *exactly* the same thing that made you stick around
in the first place?
Software is *NOT* important around here, do you get it?
Human relationships are. Ask yourself if your comments made this
relationship any better.
From here, with this childlish comment of yours you:
- pissed Luca, deteriorating a possible relationship with him and his
colleagues
- worry other people, that might not want to donate their code because
fearing of such treatment themselves.
- lowered the overall respect others have in you
- reduced the chance of collaboration with the stuff you've written
I will *NOT* tollerate any further stupid personal attack on this list.
You have a ego problem? go over it or leave. I've said so on avalon-dev
I'm saying the same here.
Note that this is true for *EVERYBODY*, myself included.
Moreover, I'm *very* concerned about the fact that this comment doesn't
come from a newbie but from a vice-president of the foundation. Nicola
is the avalon chair and Avalon suffers from these problems. Don't make
me think there is a connection between the two.
Yes, I'm pissed.
And yes, I've used my two-email pattern, (you should have read the other
one)
--
Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>
--------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: cocoon-dev-unsubscribe@xml.apache.org
For additional commands, email: cocoon-dev-help@xml.apache.org
Re: Personal Attacks [was Re: ChartTransformer 0.0.4 urge a commiter!]
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
On Tuesday 28 January 2003 17:53, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> I've received private comments that suggested me to avoid doing those
> little asskicks of mine in public. Sometimes I do them privately,
> sometimes I do them publicly, mostly depends on who the person is.
People with a lot of community experience both takes "less notice" of personal
attacks to fellow community members (i.e. disregard them and/or turn them
against the attacker) and "can ignore' personal attacks on ourselves, without
retaliation.
That said, Mr Principal, your actions are perhaps warranted to settle disputes
among less "domesticated" members, to restore community harmony.
Nicola.... Luca... Shake hands, apologize, no hard feelings, heat of the
battle, we can all get along. Ok?
Niclas
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: cocoon-dev-unsubscribe@xml.apache.org
For additional commands, email: cocoon-dev-help@xml.apache.org
Re: Personal Attacks [was Re: ChartTransformer 0.0.4 urge a commiter!]
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
>
> Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>
>> Nicola, you crossed the line.
>
>
> Sorry :-/
>
> Luca and all cocoon-dev, please accept my sincere apologies.
Thank you, your prompt apologies are accepted and greatly appreciated.
I've received private comments that suggested me to avoid doing those
little asskicks of mine in public. Sometimes I do them privately,
sometimes I do them publicly, mostly depends on who the person is.
Nicola is a guy I highly respect. The more I respect you, the more I
think you can handle public things. I consider your ego to be an
obstacle to your work (and a big obstacle for women entering any
male-polarized community!) and I'll do whatever I can to let you
understand this.
A private message would have helped Nicola, but wouldn't have helped you
understanding me and wouldn't have helped you understanding that Nicola
recognized his action and put his ego on a side, earning back the
respect that his last action had a little diluted.
The intention of my public email was to give Nicola the chance to earn
back his respect and to show you all that he deserves yours, no matter
what silly 'faux-pas' he or you do.
Remember: you should be happier when somebody proves or shows you wrong
rather than right, because then the only time you get to learn something
you didn't know before.
Cocoon is a community of people first, and a software project later. And
I realize this by how many times I've been proven wrong, or my personal
random thoughts have been shaped into rock-solid design built to last.
A little ego is a powerful fuel for innovation, but too much will blind
your ability to see your mistakes, thus slowing down your possibility to
learn from others and improve yourself.
Food for thoughts.
--
Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>
--------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: cocoon-dev-unsubscribe@xml.apache.org
For additional commands, email: cocoon-dev-help@xml.apache.org
RE: Personal Attacks [was Re: ChartTransformer 0.0.4 urge a commiter!]
Posted by Luca Morandini <lu...@tin.it>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steven Noels [mailto:stevenn@outerthought.org]
> Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 11:04 AM
> To: cocoon-dev@xml.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Personal Attacks [was Re: ChartTransformer 0.0.4 urge a
> commiter!]
> > 4) Donate, to the prospective Cocoon-GIS project (see 3), a
> > transformer to connect Cocoon with ArcIMS, a proprietary web-mapping
> > package
>
> Given my recent private enquiry, and some Apachians playing with the
> idea of mapping committer's geographic locations, that would be a nice
> toy project as a sampler.
Ahem... I wrote "proprietary": that toy project of yours would cost about EUR 10.000 (the street price of ArcIMS... give or take
something).
Anyway, there are open-source alternatives as well, though not as powerful :(
Regards,
---------------------------------------------
Luca Morandini
GIS Consultant
lmorandini@ieee.org
http://utenti.tripod.it/lmorandini/index.html
---------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: cocoon-dev-unsubscribe@xml.apache.org
For additional commands, email: cocoon-dev-help@xml.apache.org
Re: Personal Attacks [was Re: ChartTransformer 0.0.4 urge a commiter!]
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
Luca Morandini wrote:
> 1) Bring the JFreeChartTransformer (aka ChartTransformer) under the
> aegis of CocoonDev... (provided CocoonDev board accepts it, of
> course)
Cool. Be sure to deal with the license stuff on beforehand.
> 2) Start collaborating with the Wings project on a common XML schema
> for charts, hence letting the user choose which transformer suits
> him/her best (provided, of course, Wings committers agree)
Excellent. Tom will be happy to hear that!
> 3) Setup a new Cocoon-GIS sub-project in CocoonDev (yes, yes, I'll
> ask CocoonDev board first)
>
> 4) Donate, to the prospective Cocoon-GIS project (see 3), a
> transformer to connect Cocoon with ArcIMS, a proprietary web-mapping
> package
Given my recent private enquiry, and some Apachians playing with the
idea of mapping committer's geographic locations, that would be a nice
toy project as a sampler.
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
Read my weblog at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: cocoon-dev-unsubscribe@xml.apache.org
For additional commands, email: cocoon-dev-help@xml.apache.org
Re: Personal Attacks [was Re: ChartTransformer 0.0.4 urge a commiter!]
Posted by Jeremy Quinn <je...@media.demon.co.uk>.
On Thursday, Jan 30, 2003, at 15:18 Europe/London, Steven Noels wrote:
> Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>
>> Thanks everybody for their patience on this.
>
> I think we all learned a great deal out of it.
+1
regards Jeremy
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: cocoon-dev-unsubscribe@xml.apache.org
For additional commands, email: cocoon-dev-help@xml.apache.org
Re: Personal Attacks [was Re: ChartTransformer 0.0.4 urge a commiter!]
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> Thanks everybody for their patience on this.
I think we all learned a great deal out of it.
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
Read my weblog at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: cocoon-dev-unsubscribe@xml.apache.org
For additional commands, email: cocoon-dev-help@xml.apache.org
Re: Personal Attacks [was Re: ChartTransformer 0.0.4 urge a commiter!]
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Luca Morandini wrote:
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Stefano Mazzocchi [mailto:stefano@apache.org]
>>Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 3:40 PM
>>To: cocoon-dev@xml.apache.org
>>Subject: Re: Personal Attacks [was Re: ChartTransformer 0.0.4 urge a
>>commiter!]
>
>
>>You had a wonderful chance to accept Nicola's mistakes, appreciate his
>>regrets and earn a bunch of community respect by doing so.
>>Instead, you have choosen to keep beating somebody that admitted his
>>faults and in such a rude and personal way, with the chance of further
>>spreading negative energy and thus pollute the entire community with a
>>potential flamewar.
>>
>
>
> You're right, I acted recklessly, while at 37 I should have been wiser.
>
> Moreover, I needlessy damaged the community in doing so.
>
> To add insult to injury, I sent the notorious message without consulting Piero De Nicola, hence, indirectly damaging that innocent
> man as well.
>
> I should have been much wiser than that... indeed Nirvana is ahead of me :(
>
> Since I hold the view that apologies aren't enough, I will try to repair the damage I've done:
>
> 1) Bring the JFreeChartTransformer (aka ChartTransformer) under the aegis of CocoonDev... (provided CocoonDev board accepts it, of
> course)
>
> 2) Start collaborating with the Wings project on a common XML schema for charts, hence letting the user choose which transformer
> suits him/her best (provided, of course, Wings committers agree)
>
> 3) Setup a new Cocoon-GIS sub-project in CocoonDev (yes, yes, I'll ask CocoonDev board first)
>
> 4) Donate, to the prospective Cocoon-GIS project (see 3), a transformer to connect Cocoon with ArcIMS, a proprietary web-mapping
> package
>
> Do you deem it enough to put the relationship back on course ?
Of course!
But even the first line alone would have done it.
Now that the friction is over, let me talk to you about donations:
1) the LGPL issue is a serious concern in apache-land. while you can
disagree with the idea and the social impact, there is nothing *I* can
do to change this, the inertia of the concept is *way* more than I can
handle.
2) cocoon is too big. we need to factor things out. we need blocks for
that. blocks are hard to implement and we must get them incrementally
right (see my next mail)
3) code donations will be welcome, even if they duplicate functionality,
but only if they are 'helpful' for the community... we might decide to
'route' them somewhere else ('sourceforge' 'cocoondev' 'krysalis'
you-name-it) before incorporating them into something released from
cocoon.apache.org. This should *NOT* be considered offensive, but a way
to protect the community from potentially negative impact (like that one
we just experienced)
4) the cocoon PMC will work a politically fair solution for block
donation and distribution once the block technology will be in place,
this will take a while, though.
5) the line between block and non-block will be thin and easy to cross.
Please, don't get upset if you think others have been treated
differently, for sure, there is no reason to behave 'coldly' to a code
donation on purpose. At the same time, I'll work hard to make sure that
no code ownership and ego problems get in our way.
Hope this solves the issue.
Thanks everybody for their patience on this.
--
Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>
--------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: cocoon-dev-unsubscribe@xml.apache.org
For additional commands, email: cocoon-dev-help@xml.apache.org
RE: Personal Attacks [was Re: ChartTransformer 0.0.4 urge a commiter!]
Posted by Luca Morandini <lu...@tin.it>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stefano Mazzocchi [mailto:stefano@apache.org]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 3:40 PM
> To: cocoon-dev@xml.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Personal Attacks [was Re: ChartTransformer 0.0.4 urge a
> commiter!]
> You had a wonderful chance to accept Nicola's mistakes, appreciate his
> regrets and earn a bunch of community respect by doing so.
> Instead, you have choosen to keep beating somebody that admitted his
> faults and in such a rude and personal way, with the chance of further
> spreading negative energy and thus pollute the entire community with a
> potential flamewar.
>
You're right, I acted recklessly, while at 37 I should have been wiser.
Moreover, I needlessy damaged the community in doing so.
To add insult to injury, I sent the notorious message without consulting Piero De Nicola, hence, indirectly damaging that innocent
man as well.
I should have been much wiser than that... indeed Nirvana is ahead of me :(
Since I hold the view that apologies aren't enough, I will try to repair the damage I've done:
1) Bring the JFreeChartTransformer (aka ChartTransformer) under the aegis of CocoonDev... (provided CocoonDev board accepts it, of
course)
2) Start collaborating with the Wings project on a common XML schema for charts, hence letting the user choose which transformer
suits him/her best (provided, of course, Wings committers agree)
3) Setup a new Cocoon-GIS sub-project in CocoonDev (yes, yes, I'll ask CocoonDev board first)
4) Donate, to the prospective Cocoon-GIS project (see 3), a transformer to connect Cocoon with ArcIMS, a proprietary web-mapping
package
Do you deem it enough to put the relationship back on course ?
Regards,
---------------------------------------------
Luca Morandini
GIS Consultant
lmorandini@ieee.org
http://utenti.tripod.it/lmorandini/index.html
---------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: cocoon-dev-unsubscribe@xml.apache.org
For additional commands, email: cocoon-dev-help@xml.apache.org
Re: Personal Attacks [was Re: ChartTransformer 0.0.4 urge a commiter!]
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Luca Morandini wrote:
>>Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>>
>>>Nicola, you crossed the line.
>>
>>Sorry :-/
>>
>>Luca and all cocoon-dev, please accept my sincere apologies.
>>
>
> "The evil that men do lives after them; the good that men do is often interred with their bones."
>
> --Shakespeare, Julius Caesar.
>
> Which, in less theatrical a manner, means: it is not the first time you regret something you did within the OSS community... but
> apologies won't make those deeds go away.
Wrong. Learning is the process of making mistakes and recognizing them.
Pretending there is only one possibility to fail and to recover is
foolish and pretentious.
> I don't know you, and I don't usually give psychologic advice to strangers, but, let me tell you just one thing: it is probably time
> to re-focus yourself in what you do best, and leave the rest to other people.
You had a wonderful chance to accept Nicola's mistakes, appreciate his
regrets and earn a bunch of community respect by doing so.
Instead, you have choosen to keep beating somebody that admitted his
faults and in such a rude and personal way, with the chance of further
spreading negative energy and thus pollute the entire community with a
potential flamewar.
I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one on this list who now believes that
this 'faux-pax' of yours is much worse than the one Nicola made.
--
Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>
--------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: cocoon-dev-unsubscribe@xml.apache.org
For additional commands, email: cocoon-dev-help@xml.apache.org
RE: Personal Attacks [was Re: ChartTransformer 0.0.4 urge a commiter!]
Posted by Luca Morandini <lu...@tin.it>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nicola Ken Barozzi [mailto:nicolaken@apache.org]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 8:44 AM
> To: cocoon-dev@xml.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Personal Attacks [was Re: ChartTransformer 0.0.4 urge a
> commiter!]
>
>
>
> Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>
> > Nicola, you crossed the line.
>
> Sorry :-/
>
> Luca and all cocoon-dev, please accept my sincere apologies.
>
"The evil that men do lives after them; the good that men do is often interred with their bones."
--Shakespeare, Julius Caesar.
Which, in less theatrical a manner, means: it is not the first time you regret something you did within the OSS community... but
apologies won't make those deeds go away.
I don't know you, and I don't usually give psychologic advice to strangers, but, let me tell you just one thing: it is probably time
to re-focus yourself in what you do best, and leave the rest to other people.
Regards,
---------------------------------------------
Luca Morandini
GIS Consultant
lmorandini@ieee.org
http://utenti.tripod.it/lmorandini/index.html
---------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: cocoon-dev-unsubscribe@xml.apache.org
For additional commands, email: cocoon-dev-help@xml.apache.org
Re: Personal Attacks [was Re: ChartTransformer 0.0.4 urge a commiter!]
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> Nicola, you crossed the line.
Sorry :-/
Luca and all cocoon-dev, please accept my sincere apologies.
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: cocoon-dev-unsubscribe@xml.apache.org
For additional commands, email: cocoon-dev-help@xml.apache.org
Re: Personal Attacks [was Re: ChartTransformer 0.0.4 urge a commiter!]
Posted by Jeff Turner <je...@apache.org>.
On Mon, Jan 27, 2003 at 11:47:03AM +0100, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
<snip>
> Yes, I'm pissed.
No-one's perfect. There's few better examples of
screw-up/apologise/move-on committers than Nicola.
--Jeff
(who frequently screws up)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: cocoon-dev-unsubscribe@xml.apache.org
For additional commands, email: cocoon-dev-help@xml.apache.org