Top navbar on the site with fluido

[Kristian Rosenvold <kr...@zenior.no>]

There was a comment about this in the surefire release (
(http://maven.apache.org/surefire/maven-surefire-plugin/),
so I figured we might as well get on with this discussion.

Being somewhat of a luddite with an appetite for all things new &
flashy, I happily accepted the site change
to the top menu-bar for surefire. But the luddite somehow still
screams "no" inside me. Let's get this over with:

I think the top menu bar in fluido has the same problem the left-menu
always had: There is no sense of priority
and all use cases are given equal focus. On the old-style left hand
side menu I would have this very clear mental
model inside my head that "goals" is where I want to go 80% of the
time, the somewhat oddly names "examples" section
15% of the time and the"rest" about 5% of the time. Now brain is such
a marvellous instrument for filtering out all
the uninteresting stuff, which is what made the old flat-style menu
work so well. But I think the dropdown menu
simply works less well because it gives me much less of a "at a glance"

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Re: Top navbar on the site with fluido

[Dennis Lundberg <de...@apache.org>]

I agree.

On 2013-01-01 12:42, Anders Hammar wrote:
> +1
> I think we should keep the old left-hand menu, like what we've done over at
> Mojo.
> 
> /Anders
> 
> 
> On Sat, Dec 29, 2012 at 5:09 PM, Jesse Farinacci <ji...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> Greetings,
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 11:21 PM, Kristian Rosenvold
>> <kr...@zenior.no> wrote:
>>> There was a comment about this in the surefire release (
>>> (http://maven.apache.org/surefire/maven-surefire-plugin/),
>>> so I figured we might as well get on with this discussion.
>>
>> I don't disagree with any of what you had to say. I think that the new
>> fluido skin is quite an improvement. However, I find that users
>> respond better to both the old left-nav plus the top-nav system that
>> is optional with the fluido skin.
>>
>> There's a long history in Maven site chronology where navigation is
>> found on the left in a boxy area. To move away from that in just one
>> generation is too much change for users to handle.
>>
>> -Jesse
>>
>> --
>> There are 10 types of people in this world, those
>> that can read binary and those that can not.
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@maven.apache.org
>>
>>
> 


-- 
Dennis Lundberg

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Re: Top navbar on the site with fluido

[Robert Scholte <rf...@apache.org>]

I'd prefer the sidebar (alone) as well.

I've just verified that I can easily reskin the site, so it shouldn't be  
too hard to remove it from existing pages.

Compare these 2 sites:
http://maven.apache.org/plugins/maven-clean-plugin/
http://maven.apache.org/plugins-archives/maven-clean-plugin-2.5/
( differences are very subtle, but I can name at least 3 )


Robert

Op Wed, 02 Jan 2013 16:55:11 +0100 schreef Brian Fox <br...@infinity.nu>:

> +1
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 1, 2013 at 6:42 AM, Anders Hammar <an...@hammar.net> wrote:
>
>> +1
>> I think we should keep the old left-hand menu, like what we've done  
>> over at
>> Mojo.
>>
>> /Anders
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Dec 29, 2012 at 5:09 PM, Jesse Farinacci <ji...@gmail.com>  
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Greetings,
>> >
>> > On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 11:21 PM, Kristian Rosenvold
>> > <kr...@zenior.no> wrote:
>> > > There was a comment about this in the surefire release (
>> > > (http://maven.apache.org/surefire/maven-surefire-plugin/),
>> > > so I figured we might as well get on with this discussion.
>> >
>> > I don't disagree with any of what you had to say. I think that the new
>> > fluido skin is quite an improvement. However, I find that users
>> > respond better to both the old left-nav plus the top-nav system that
>> > is optional with the fluido skin.
>> >
>> > There's a long history in Maven site chronology where navigation is
>> > found on the left in a boxy area. To move away from that in just one
>> > generation is too much change for users to handle.
>> >
>> > -Jesse
>> >
>> > --
>> > There are 10 types of people in this world, those
>> > that can read binary and those that can not.
>> >
>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org
>> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@maven.apache.org
>> >
>> >

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Re: Top navbar on the site with fluido

[Brian Fox <br...@infinity.nu>]

+1


On Tue, Jan 1, 2013 at 6:42 AM, Anders Hammar <an...@hammar.net> wrote:

> +1
> I think we should keep the old left-hand menu, like what we've done over at
> Mojo.
>
> /Anders
>
>
> On Sat, Dec 29, 2012 at 5:09 PM, Jesse Farinacci <ji...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Greetings,
> >
> > On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 11:21 PM, Kristian Rosenvold
> > <kr...@zenior.no> wrote:
> > > There was a comment about this in the surefire release (
> > > (http://maven.apache.org/surefire/maven-surefire-plugin/),
> > > so I figured we might as well get on with this discussion.
> >
> > I don't disagree with any of what you had to say. I think that the new
> > fluido skin is quite an improvement. However, I find that users
> > respond better to both the old left-nav plus the top-nav system that
> > is optional with the fluido skin.
> >
> > There's a long history in Maven site chronology where navigation is
> > found on the left in a boxy area. To move away from that in just one
> > generation is too much change for users to handle.
> >
> > -Jesse
> >
> > --
> > There are 10 types of people in this world, those
> > that can read binary and those that can not.
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@maven.apache.org
> >
> >
>

Re: Top navbar on the site with fluido

[Anders Hammar <an...@hammar.net>]

> a first step would be to have both bars, instead of top bar replacing left
> one
>

I'm not so sure about this. The basic knowledge I have about UI design is
to never have more than one way to initiate an action. I'm thinking that if
we have to both menu bars showing the same items it will confuse the users.
So, I think we need to make a decision. But we could start with keeping the
old structure (like we've done over at Mojo) OR we do a menu structure
change. Personally I don't think there is much benefit in changing the
structure people are used to. I think we should appreciate that there are
lots of plugin sites out there which uses the other skins and thus have the
left hand menu. Consistency is good!

/Anders


>
> Regards,
>
> Hervé
>
> Le mardi 1 janvier 2013 19:30:13 Jesse Farinacci a écrit :
> > Greetings,
> >
> > On Tue, Jan 1, 2013 at 6:48 PM, Hervé BOUTEMY <he...@free.fr>
> wrote:
> > > IMHO, top bar menu isn't ready for the moment: still need to find an
> idea
> > > to make it efficient
> >
> > Perhaps, but I think it would be a mistake to abandon the top navigation
> > menu.
> > > for the moment, I stringly prefer to stay with the classic left column
> > > placement
> >
> > Yep, I prefer the left navigation also, and I find my users also
> > prefer it. However, the fluido skin allows to easily provide both.
> > Let's keep people getting used to the top navigation system as well.
> > It doesn't kill off that much screen real estate, and it shows off
> > some newish features.
> >
> > -Jesse
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org
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>
>

Re: Top navbar on the site with fluido

[Hervé BOUTEMY <he...@free.fr>]

yes, we must avoid the "it was better before" effect then do nothing but tell 
the problems to find a solution

to me, left-side menu is good for most used links, ie "Overview", "Examples" 
and "Modules"
top bar is good for less used links: "Poject Documentation", "Maven Projects", 
"ASF"

I don't know if we can actually dispatch menus in bars

a first step would be to have both bars, instead of top bar replacing left one

Regards,

Hervé

Le mardi 1 janvier 2013 19:30:13 Jesse Farinacci a écrit :
> Greetings,
> 
> On Tue, Jan 1, 2013 at 6:48 PM, Hervé BOUTEMY <he...@free.fr> wrote:
> > IMHO, top bar menu isn't ready for the moment: still need to find an idea
> > to make it efficient
> 
> Perhaps, but I think it would be a mistake to abandon the top navigation
> menu.
> > for the moment, I stringly prefer to stay with the classic left column
> > placement
> 
> Yep, I prefer the left navigation also, and I find my users also
> prefer it. However, the fluido skin allows to easily provide both.
> Let's keep people getting used to the top navigation system as well.
> It doesn't kill off that much screen real estate, and it shows off
> some newish features.
> 
> -Jesse

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Re: Top navbar on the site with fluido

[Jesse Farinacci <ji...@gmail.com>]

Greetings,

On Tue, Jan 1, 2013 at 6:48 PM, Hervé BOUTEMY <he...@free.fr> wrote:
> IMHO, top bar menu isn't ready for the moment: still need to find an idea to
> make it efficient

Perhaps, but I think it would be a mistake to abandon the top navigation menu.

> for the moment, I stringly prefer to stay with the classic left column
> placement

Yep, I prefer the left navigation also, and I find my users also
prefer it. However, the fluido skin allows to easily provide both.
Let's keep people getting used to the top navigation system as well.
It doesn't kill off that much screen real estate, and it shows off
some newish features.

-Jesse

-- 
There are 10 types of people in this world, those
that can read binary and those that can not.

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Re: Top navbar on the site with fluido

[Hervé BOUTEMY <he...@free.fr>]

yes, an next times, it's just inefficient to navigate: we need some menus opened 
by default

IMHO, top bar menu isn't ready for the moment: still need to find an idea to 
make it efficient

for the moment, I stringly prefer to stay with the classic left column 
placement

Regards,

Hervé

Le mercredi 2 janvier 2013 10:22:20 Chris Graham a écrit :
> +1 for the old placement.
> The first time I saw it, it threw me as I though that all of the content had
> been lost.
> 
> -Chris
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On 01/01/2013, at 10:42 PM, Anders Hammar <an...@hammar.net> wrote:
> > +1
> > I think we should keep the old left-hand menu, like what we've done over
> > at
> > Mojo.
> > 
> > /Anders
> > 
> > On Sat, Dec 29, 2012 at 5:09 PM, Jesse Farinacci <ji...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Greetings,
> >> 
> >> On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 11:21 PM, Kristian Rosenvold
> >> 
> >> <kr...@zenior.no> wrote:
> >>> There was a comment about this in the surefire release (
> >>> (http://maven.apache.org/surefire/maven-surefire-plugin/),
> >>> so I figured we might as well get on with this discussion.
> >> 
> >> I don't disagree with any of what you had to say. I think that the new
> >> fluido skin is quite an improvement. However, I find that users
> >> respond better to both the old left-nav plus the top-nav system that
> >> is optional with the fluido skin.
> >> 
> >> There's a long history in Maven site chronology where navigation is
> >> found on the left in a boxy area. To move away from that in just one
> >> generation is too much change for users to handle.
> >> 
> >> -Jesse
> >> 
> >> --
> >> There are 10 types of people in this world, those
> >> that can read binary and those that can not.
> >> 
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@maven.apache.org
> 
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Re: Top navbar on the site with fluido

[Chris Graham <ch...@gmail.com>]

+1 for the old placement.
The first time I saw it, it threw me as I though that all of the content had been lost.

-Chris

Sent from my iPhone

On 01/01/2013, at 10:42 PM, Anders Hammar <an...@hammar.net> wrote:

> +1
> I think we should keep the old left-hand menu, like what we've done over at
> Mojo.
> 
> /Anders
> 
> 
> On Sat, Dec 29, 2012 at 5:09 PM, Jesse Farinacci <ji...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> Greetings,
>> 
>> On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 11:21 PM, Kristian Rosenvold
>> <kr...@zenior.no> wrote:
>>> There was a comment about this in the surefire release (
>>> (http://maven.apache.org/surefire/maven-surefire-plugin/),
>>> so I figured we might as well get on with this discussion.
>> 
>> I don't disagree with any of what you had to say. I think that the new
>> fluido skin is quite an improvement. However, I find that users
>> respond better to both the old left-nav plus the top-nav system that
>> is optional with the fluido skin.
>> 
>> There's a long history in Maven site chronology where navigation is
>> found on the left in a boxy area. To move away from that in just one
>> generation is too much change for users to handle.
>> 
>> -Jesse
>> 
>> --
>> There are 10 types of people in this world, those
>> that can read binary and those that can not.
>> 
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@maven.apache.org
>> 
>> 

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Re: Top navbar on the site with fluido

[Anders Hammar <an...@hammar.net>]

+1
I think we should keep the old left-hand menu, like what we've done over at
Mojo.

/Anders


On Sat, Dec 29, 2012 at 5:09 PM, Jesse Farinacci <ji...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Greetings,
>
> On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 11:21 PM, Kristian Rosenvold
> <kr...@zenior.no> wrote:
> > There was a comment about this in the surefire release (
> > (http://maven.apache.org/surefire/maven-surefire-plugin/),
> > so I figured we might as well get on with this discussion.
>
> I don't disagree with any of what you had to say. I think that the new
> fluido skin is quite an improvement. However, I find that users
> respond better to both the old left-nav plus the top-nav system that
> is optional with the fluido skin.
>
> There's a long history in Maven site chronology where navigation is
> found on the left in a boxy area. To move away from that in just one
> generation is too much change for users to handle.
>
> -Jesse
>
> --
> There are 10 types of people in this world, those
> that can read binary and those that can not.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@maven.apache.org
>
>

Re: Top navbar on the site with fluido

[Jesse Farinacci <ji...@gmail.com>]

Greetings,

On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 11:21 PM, Kristian Rosenvold
<kr...@zenior.no> wrote:
> There was a comment about this in the surefire release (
> (http://maven.apache.org/surefire/maven-surefire-plugin/),
> so I figured we might as well get on with this discussion.

I don't disagree with any of what you had to say. I think that the new
fluido skin is quite an improvement. However, I find that users
respond better to both the old left-nav plus the top-nav system that
is optional with the fluido skin.

There's a long history in Maven site chronology where navigation is
found on the left in a boxy area. To move away from that in just one
generation is too much change for users to handle.

-Jesse

-- 
There are 10 types of people in this world, those
that can read binary and those that can not.

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Re: Top navbar on the site with fluido

[Kristian Rosenvold <kr...@zenior.no>]

(XXXX gmail send button)

2012/12/29 Kristian Rosenvold <kr...@zenior.no>:
> work so well. But I think the dropdown menu
> simply works less well because it gives me much less of a "at a glance"

overview of what is present in the site.

I think my main gripe with the dropdown is that *some* parts of the
menu have a fixed, well known structure while some others are more
manually produced content. It just seems to me that
hiding everything equally is less optimal than what we had. Could we
find some kind of mix
that works better, which is more focused on the common usages ?

Kristian

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