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Posted to dev@forrest.apache.org by David Crossley <cr...@indexgeo.com.au> on 2004/01/15 02:50:57 UTC

mail list config for forrest-dev (Was: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website)

Joerg Heinicke wrote to cocoon-dev:
> I'm not CCing Forrest as I'm not subscribed there and they don't 
> moderate my mails through.

I am a moderator and would let them through and add to the
allow list. However, i don't see any. Are they rather bouncing?

I gather that forrest-dev is set to subscriber-only, but i expect
to get moderation messages. Inconsistent mail list configs at
Apache are so confusing.

I sent the initial Proposal to both because it concerned both.
Now i am following up to each list separately. I don't know
how to handle cross-posted discussions.

--David



Re: mail list config for forrest-dev

Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
On Jan 16, 2004, at 5:30 AM, David Crossley wrote:

> I wonder if, with our email obfuscation efforts with the Forrest
> website, we might be getting less spam now. Should we try opening
> it up? We should be encouraging cross-project discussion and not
> let spam stifle that.

Yep - you should ask apmail.

> I still don't understand why we get so much spam. Doesn't the
> mail system at Apache do spam filtering? Or do the moderation
> messages bypass that.

Many messages do get caught by spamwatch (the server-side custom 
filtering stuff on daedalus). Still, on an average week, with 
SpamAssassin already catching a lot on my IMAP box, and Mail.app doing 
its own filtering, I do receive 20-30 spam moderation messages a week. 
I'm not on dial-up though, so bandwidth isn't an issue to me.

I guess bandwidth is your real issue, not?

</Steven>
-- 
Steven Noels                            http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source Java & XML            An Orixo Member
Read my weblog at            http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org                stevenn at apache.org


Re: mail list config for forrest-dev

Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
On Jan 16, 2004, at 5:30 AM, David Crossley wrote:

> I wonder if, with our email obfuscation efforts with the Forrest
> website, we might be getting less spam now. Should we try opening
> it up? We should be encouraging cross-project discussion and not
> let spam stifle that.

Yep - you should ask apmail.

> I still don't understand why we get so much spam. Doesn't the
> mail system at Apache do spam filtering? Or do the moderation
> messages bypass that.

Many messages do get caught by spamwatch (the server-side custom 
filtering stuff on daedalus). Still, on an average week, with 
SpamAssassin already catching a lot on my IMAP box, and Mail.app doing 
its own filtering, I do receive 20-30 spam moderation messages a week. 
I'm not on dial-up though, so bandwidth isn't an issue to me.

I guess bandwidth is your real issue, not?

</Steven>
-- 
Steven Noels                            http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source Java & XML            An Orixo Member
Read my weblog at            http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org                stevenn at apache.org


Re: mail list config for forrest-dev

Posted by David Crossley <cr...@indexgeo.com.au>.
Steven Noels wrote:
> David Crossley wrote:
> > Joerg Heinicke wrote to cocoon-dev:
> >> I'm not CCing Forrest as I'm not subscribed there and they don't
> >> moderate my mails through.
> >
> > I am a moderator and would let them through and add to the
> > allow list. However, i don't see any. Are they rather bouncing?
> >
> > I gather that forrest-dev is set to subscriber-only, but i expect
> > to get moderation messages. Inconsistent mail list configs at
> > Apache are so confusing.
> 
> Nope - we got what we wanted. Remember that we were tired once 
> moderating spam, and asked apmail to reconfigure. That's what we get 
> with a subscribers-only list.

Drat, i forgot that it was set that way.

I wonder if, with our email obfuscation efforts with the Forrest
website, we might be getting less spam now. Should we try opening
it up? We should be encouraging cross-project discussion and not
let spam stifle that.

I still don't understand why we get so much spam. Doesn't the
mail system at Apache do spam filtering? Or do the moderation
messages bypass that.

--David




Re: mail list config for forrest-dev

Posted by David Crossley <cr...@indexgeo.com.au>.
Steven Noels wrote:
> David Crossley wrote:
> > Joerg Heinicke wrote to cocoon-dev:
> >> I'm not CCing Forrest as I'm not subscribed there and they don't
> >> moderate my mails through.
> >
> > I am a moderator and would let them through and add to the
> > allow list. However, i don't see any. Are they rather bouncing?
> >
> > I gather that forrest-dev is set to subscriber-only, but i expect
> > to get moderation messages. Inconsistent mail list configs at
> > Apache are so confusing.
> 
> Nope - we got what we wanted. Remember that we were tired once 
> moderating spam, and asked apmail to reconfigure. That's what we get 
> with a subscribers-only list.

Drat, i forgot that it was set that way.

I wonder if, with our email obfuscation efforts with the Forrest
website, we might be getting less spam now. Should we try opening
it up? We should be encouraging cross-project discussion and not
let spam stifle that.

I still don't understand why we get so much spam. Doesn't the
mail system at Apache do spam filtering? Or do the moderation
messages bypass that.

--David




Re: mail list config for forrest-dev (Was: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website)

Posted by Joerg Heinicke <jo...@gmx.de>.
On 15.01.2004 12:38, Steven Noels wrote:

>> Is it possible to get on a white list though, at least after a 
>> personal request to forrest-dev-owner@x.a.o?
> 
> 
> I've changed my moderation policies for the lists I moderate: when an 
> non-subscriber sends a legitimate mail to a list, I moderate through 
> _and_ add him to the whitelist.

Ok.

> There's still a chance then that he 
> doesn't get the reply (because he wasn't subscribed, and his message 
> (and replies) appears magically on the list, perhaps without him knowing 
> so),

He?

> but manually informing people that they _need_ to subscribe in 
> order to see the replies delivered in their mailbox became too much of a 
> burden.

I didn't mean manually informing, it's enough if I get on the whitelist 
after sending a manual request after an automatic bouncing - and this 
way it seems to go at the moment, isn't it?

I don't know what you mean exactly with replies. If I want to get the 
replies as mails I would subscribe of course. But the single threads I'm 
interested in I read on gmane or theaimsgroup.

Joerg


Re: mail list config for forrest-dev (Was: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website)

Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
On Jan 15, 2004, at 12:29 PM, Joerg Heinicke wrote:

> Is it possible to get on a white list though, at least after a 
> personal request to forrest-dev-owner@x.a.o?

I've changed my moderation policies for the lists I moderate: when an 
non-subscriber sends a legitimate mail to a list, I moderate through 
_and_ add him to the whitelist. There's still a chance then that he 
doesn't get the reply (because he wasn't subscribed, and his message 
(and replies) appears magically on the list, perhaps without him 
knowing so), but manually informing people that they _need_ to 
subscribe in order to see the replies delivered in their mailbox became 
too much of a burden. Besides, some read lists through Gmane so they'll 
find the replies anyhow.

</Steven>
-- 
Steven Noels                            http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source Java & XML            An Orixo Member
Read my weblog at            http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org                stevenn at apache.org


Re: mail list config for forrest-dev (Was: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website)

Posted by Joerg Heinicke <jo...@gmx.de>.
On 15.01.2004 10:28, Steven Noels wrote:

> On Jan 15, 2004, at 2:50 AM, David Crossley wrote:
> 
>> Joerg Heinicke wrote to cocoon-dev:
>>
>>> I'm not CCing Forrest as I'm not subscribed there and they don't
>>> moderate my mails through.
>>
>>
>> I am a moderator and would let them through and add to the
>> allow list. However, i don't see any. Are they rather bouncing?
>>
>> I gather that forrest-dev is set to subscriber-only, but i expect
>> to get moderation messages. Inconsistent mail list configs at
>> Apache are so confusing.
> 
> 
> Nope - we got what we wanted. Remember that we were tired once 
> moderating spam, and asked apmail to reconfigure. That's what we get 
> with a subscribers-only list.

Is it possible to get on a white list though, at least after a personal 
request to forrest-dev-owner@x.a.o?

Joerg


Re: mail list config for forrest-dev (Was: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website)

Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
On Jan 15, 2004, at 2:50 AM, David Crossley wrote:

> Joerg Heinicke wrote to cocoon-dev:
>> I'm not CCing Forrest as I'm not subscribed there and they don't
>> moderate my mails through.
>
> I am a moderator and would let them through and add to the
> allow list. However, i don't see any. Are they rather bouncing?
>
> I gather that forrest-dev is set to subscriber-only, but i expect
> to get moderation messages. Inconsistent mail list configs at
> Apache are so confusing.

Nope - we got what we wanted. Remember that we were tired once 
moderating spam, and asked apmail to reconfigure. That's what we get 
with a subscribers-only list.

</Steven>
-- 
Steven Noels                            http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source Java & XML            An Orixo Member
Read my weblog at            http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org                stevenn at apache.org


Re: mail list config for forrest-dev (Was: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website)

Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
On Jan 15, 2004, at 2:50 AM, David Crossley wrote:

> Joerg Heinicke wrote to cocoon-dev:
>> I'm not CCing Forrest as I'm not subscribed there and they don't
>> moderate my mails through.
>
> I am a moderator and would let them through and add to the
> allow list. However, i don't see any. Are they rather bouncing?
>
> I gather that forrest-dev is set to subscriber-only, but i expect
> to get moderation messages. Inconsistent mail list configs at
> Apache are so confusing.

Nope - we got what we wanted. Remember that we were tired once 
moderating spam, and asked apmail to reconfigure. That's what we get 
with a subscribers-only list.

</Steven>
-- 
Steven Noels                            http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source Java & XML            An Orixo Member
Read my weblog at            http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org                stevenn at apache.org


Re: mail list config for forrest-dev

Posted by David Crossley <cr...@indexgeo.com.au>.
Joerg Heinicke wrote:
> David Crossley wrote:
> > 
> > I am a moderator and would let them through and add to the
> > allow list.
> 
> Ok, then let's try it :)
> 
> > However, i don't see any. Are they rather bouncing?
> 
> I didn't sent it this time as I said. But in older threads concerning 
> both Cocoon and Forrest I tried to CC Forrest list too and got mails 
> that my mail had been rejected and I should subscribe first.

Yep, your test did not get to the moderator, so it is rejecting.
And thanks for your private confirmation.

There is the trade-off between letting legitimate people post
and not flooding the moderators with spam.

Okay, we will talk about it on forrest-dev. Thanks for bringing
this up - it is important that projects can communicate.

--David



Re: mail list config for forrest-dev

Posted by David Crossley <cr...@indexgeo.com.au>.
Joerg Heinicke wrote:
> David Crossley wrote:
> > 
> > I am a moderator and would let them through and add to the
> > allow list.
> 
> Ok, then let's try it :)
> 
> > However, i don't see any. Are they rather bouncing?
> 
> I didn't sent it this time as I said. But in older threads concerning 
> both Cocoon and Forrest I tried to CC Forrest list too and got mails 
> that my mail had been rejected and I should subscribe first.

Yep, your test did not get to the moderator, so it is rejecting.
And thanks for your private confirmation.

There is the trade-off between letting legitimate people post
and not flooding the moderators with spam.

Okay, we will talk about it on forrest-dev. Thanks for bringing
this up - it is important that projects can communicate.

--David



Re: mail list config for forrest-dev (Was: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website)

Posted by Joerg Heinicke <jo...@gmx.de>.
On 15.01.2004 02:50, David Crossley wrote:

> Joerg Heinicke wrote to cocoon-dev:
> 
>>I'm not CCing Forrest as I'm not subscribed there and they don't 
>>moderate my mails through.
> 
> I am a moderator and would let them through and add to the
> allow list.

Ok, then let's try it :)

> However, i don't see any. Are they rather bouncing?

I didn't sent it this time as I said. But in older threads concerning 
both Cocoon and Forrest I tried to CC Forrest list too and got mails 
that my mail had been rejected and I should subscribe first.

Joerg