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Posted to community@apache.org by thorsten <th...@apache.org> on 2004/10/15 02:11:33 UTC
[OT] How to prevent abusing Apache priviliges
Hello lists,
what if incubating mentors would abuse their powers to interfer with the
normal evolution of Apache incubation projects.
I think that mentors could write off-list mails to possible committers
and discourage them to committ to a incubating projects. On the end this
mentor could recommend to the possible incubating committer to work on a
*NON* apache project instead of the incubating project.
THAT WOULD BE A VIOLATION TO THE APACHE WAY TO DO THINGS!!!
I reckon we recommend to ban such mentors because they have not
understood the Apache way. I think they not deserve to carry a
@apache.org branding. I am still learning that way but I know that we
are not a marketing place. If they not abusing their powers they are
welcome to help building a good community and good code.
I hope that we can make some rules in Apache to prevent that to happen.
I think a abuse of e.g. mentor powers should be punished by a ban! I
think we do not want that to happen here. So we should make sure that is
not!
How can we make sure that this will not happen in the ASF?
WDYT?
spot
thorsten
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Re: [OT] How to prevent abusing Apache priviliges
Posted by Rolf Kulemann <ro...@apache.org>.
On Mon, 2004-10-18 at 03:56, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> thorsten wrote:
>
> > The aim of this thread is to set up a set of rules to prevent such thing
> > happening.
>
> Now, let me get this straight: do you *really* expect us to create
> "RULES" to avoid any possible thing that anybody considers shady?
No. I thought this is all about a guideline what commiters can do if
they feel discouraged by private mails of ASF veterans. And this is
really a FUD situation an (unexperienced) commiter could be in.
Seems you all have a different opinion. If there are facts behind this
"blue skying", they should be spoken straight now. And Thorsten, it
seems it doesn't matter where to do it.
However, I feel we should close this thread now.
--
Rolf Kulemann
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Re: [OT] How to prevent abusing Apache priviliges
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
thorsten wrote:
> The aim of this thread is to set up a set of rules to prevent such thing
> happening.
Now, let me get this straight: do you *really* expect us to create
"RULES" to avoid any possible thing that anybody considers shady?
I strongly hope you are kidding.
--
Stefano.
Re: [OT] How to prevent abusing Apache priviliges
Posted by thorsten <th...@apache.org>.
Henning Schmiedehausen wrote:
> Do you have a concrete case for this or is this just blue-skying?
>
Lets just asume that is just blue-skying!!!
The aim of this thread is to set up a set of rules to prevent such thing
happening.
I think about some *written* guideliness for Incubating Mentors and
developers that are starting to committ to incubating projects.
We have to make sure that everybody knows the rules and the consequences
in case of a violation of this rules.
Further we have to make sure that a new possible incubating committer
will know what to do if this situation is happening.
On Fri, 2004-10-15 at 17:51, Dirk-Willem van Gulik wrote:
> Please report any such issue to the PMC of the incubator; or in
private to
> any pmc member. If there are any trust issues with the PMC- please
contact
> any board member directly.
+1
IMO that would be one rule.
Spot
thorsten
> Regards
> Henning
>
>
> On Fri, 2004-10-15 at 02:11, thorsten wrote:
>
>>Hello lists,
>>
>>what if incubating mentors would abuse their powers to interfer with the
>>normal evolution of Apache incubation projects.
>>
>>I think that mentors could write off-list mails to possible committers
>>and discourage them to committ to a incubating projects. On the end this
>>mentor could recommend to the possible incubating committer to work on a
>>*NON* apache project instead of the incubating project.
>>
>>THAT WOULD BE A VIOLATION TO THE APACHE WAY TO DO THINGS!!!
>>
>>I reckon we recommend to ban such mentors because they have not
>>understood the Apache way. I think they not deserve to carry a
>>@apache.org branding. I am still learning that way but I know that we
>>are not a marketing place. If they not abusing their powers they are
>>welcome to help building a good community and good code.
>>
>>I hope that we can make some rules in Apache to prevent that to happen.
>>I think a abuse of e.g. mentor powers should be punished by a ban! I
>>think we do not want that to happen here. So we should make sure that is
>>not!
>>
>>How can we make sure that this will not happen in the ASF?
>>
>>WDYT?
>>
>>spot
>>thorsten
>>
>>
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Re: [OT] How to prevent abusing Apache priviliges
Posted by Henning Schmiedehausen <hp...@intermeta.de>.
Do you have a concrete case for this or is this just blue-skying?
Regards
Henning
On Fri, 2004-10-15 at 02:11, thorsten wrote:
> Hello lists,
>
> what if incubating mentors would abuse their powers to interfer with the
> normal evolution of Apache incubation projects.
>
> I think that mentors could write off-list mails to possible committers
> and discourage them to committ to a incubating projects. On the end this
> mentor could recommend to the possible incubating committer to work on a
> *NON* apache project instead of the incubating project.
>
> THAT WOULD BE A VIOLATION TO THE APACHE WAY TO DO THINGS!!!
>
> I reckon we recommend to ban such mentors because they have not
> understood the Apache way. I think they not deserve to carry a
> @apache.org branding. I am still learning that way but I know that we
> are not a marketing place. If they not abusing their powers they are
> welcome to help building a good community and good code.
>
> I hope that we can make some rules in Apache to prevent that to happen.
> I think a abuse of e.g. mentor powers should be punished by a ban! I
> think we do not want that to happen here. So we should make sure that is
> not!
>
> How can we make sure that this will not happen in the ASF?
>
> WDYT?
>
> spot
> thorsten
>
>
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Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen INTERMETA GmbH
hps@intermeta.de +49 9131 50 654 0 http://www.intermeta.de/
RedHat Certified Engineer -- Jakarta Turbine Development -- hero for hire
Linux, Java, perl, Solaris -- Consulting, Training, Development
What is more important to you...
[ ] Product Security
or [ ] Quality of Sales and Marketing Support
-- actual question from a Microsoft customer survey
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Re: [OT] How to prevent abusing Apache priviliges
Posted by "Roy T. Fielding" <fi...@gbiv.com>.
Never cross-post to community.
> what if incubating mentors would abuse their powers to interfer with
> the
> normal evolution of Apache incubation projects.
What is "normal evolution"? For that matter, what are the mentor powers
that you are speaking of here? Mentoring is a burden, not a power.
> I think that mentors could write off-list mails to possible committers
> and discourage them to committ to a incubating projects. On the end
> this
> mentor could recommend to the possible incubating committer to work on
> a
> *NON* apache project instead of the incubating project.
>
> THAT WOULD BE A VIOLATION TO THE APACHE WAY TO DO THINGS!!!
Well, it might be -- it really depends on why the mentor is suggesting
such a thing. For example, if someone were to try to contribute GPL
code to an Apache project, my response would be along those lines.
Is this a rhetorical question, or do you have some specific example
in mind that you want corrected? Keep in mind that mentors are human
too and they sometimes make mistakes.
....Roy
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Re: [OT] How to prevent abusing Apache priviliges
Posted by Henning Schmiedehausen <hp...@intermeta.de>.
Do you have a concrete case for this or is this just blue-skying?
Regards
Henning
On Fri, 2004-10-15 at 02:11, thorsten wrote:
> Hello lists,
>
> what if incubating mentors would abuse their powers to interfer with the
> normal evolution of Apache incubation projects.
>
> I think that mentors could write off-list mails to possible committers
> and discourage them to committ to a incubating projects. On the end this
> mentor could recommend to the possible incubating committer to work on a
> *NON* apache project instead of the incubating project.
>
> THAT WOULD BE A VIOLATION TO THE APACHE WAY TO DO THINGS!!!
>
> I reckon we recommend to ban such mentors because they have not
> understood the Apache way. I think they not deserve to carry a
> @apache.org branding. I am still learning that way but I know that we
> are not a marketing place. If they not abusing their powers they are
> welcome to help building a good community and good code.
>
> I hope that we can make some rules in Apache to prevent that to happen.
> I think a abuse of e.g. mentor powers should be punished by a ban! I
> think we do not want that to happen here. So we should make sure that is
> not!
>
> How can we make sure that this will not happen in the ASF?
>
> WDYT?
>
> spot
> thorsten
>
>
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--
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen INTERMETA GmbH
hps@intermeta.de +49 9131 50 654 0 http://www.intermeta.de/
RedHat Certified Engineer -- Jakarta Turbine Development -- hero for hire
Linux, Java, perl, Solaris -- Consulting, Training, Development
What is more important to you...
[ ] Product Security
or [ ] Quality of Sales and Marketing Support
-- actual question from a Microsoft customer survey
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Re: [OT] How to prevent abusing Apache priviliges
Posted by Rolf Kulemann <ro...@apache.org>.
On Fri, 2004-10-15 at 17:51, Dirk-Willem van Gulik wrote:
> On Fri, 15 Oct 2004, thorsten wrote:
>
> > what if incubating mentors would abuse their powers to interfer with the
> > normal evolution of Apache incubation projects.
>
> Please report any such issue to the PMC of the incubator; or in private to
> any pmc member. If there are any trust issues with the PMC- please contact
> any board member directly.
I think this is a really good idea, because it will protect privacy and
netikette (spelling?) without loosing importance of the concern.
> If you want to discuss a theoreticla thing
> general@incubator is the right place.
+1
--
Rolf Kulemann
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Re: [OT] How to prevent abusing Apache priviliges
Posted by Dirk-Willem van Gulik <di...@webweaving.org>.
On Fri, 15 Oct 2004, thorsten wrote:
> what if incubating mentors would abuse their powers to interfer with the
> normal evolution of Apache incubation projects.
Please report any such issue to the PMC of the incubator; or in private to
any pmc member. If there are any trust issues with the PMC- please contact
any board member directly. If you want to discuss a theoreticla thing
general@incubator is the right place.
However cross posting to community@ is certainly not the most appropriate
thing to do.
Dw.
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Re: [OT] How to prevent abusing Apache priviliges
Posted by Rolf Kulemann <ro...@apache.org>.
On Sat, 2004-10-16 at 04:53, Roy T.Fielding wrote:
> > A few weeks ago, many people encouraged Niclas Hedhman not to bring
> > private matters into the public here. Now, some people want this
> > issue brought into public, whereas others say it should be handled
> > only with the Incubator PMC, or possibly the Board.
>
> The general at incubator mailing list is a public list. Anyone
> interested
> in participating in the incubation of new projects should join it. That
> is where such topics are discussed.
Here are my two cents.
1.) The root mail of this thread talked about private mails as a source
of the concern. Those private mails should never be posted/forwarded or
used to make the happening clear, if there was a happening at all.
Forwarding those mails would violate privacy and "nettikette"
(spelling?).
2.) The root mail was kept quite abstract. I can see that a lot of
people are interested in this topic and we should try to keep the
abstract level here.
3.) I'm an Apache community newbie but I learned the following: In the
ASF a lot is about community and community processes, which is the main
strength of the ASF compared to other, lets say, OS organisations. Good
organisational/community processes support efficiency and lower chaos,
imho.
4.) If the usecase of this thread's topic is ever happening, there
should be an ASF _process_ to take care of that. The requirement to such
a process is quite high, since it is important not to damage projects
and persons reputation; mentors or ppmc members have done a lot for the
ASF(?) and a _small_ mistake should not have big impact, but of course
consequences!
5.) I have no idea how such a process could look like. The problem I
have is, that the cause , in this usecase, was/were private mails. All
ASF processes are based on community/public mailings etc. Maybe the
source of those mails should get a private reply, too, in order to give
a chance to correct the error i.e. to step back from what ever position
in the target community or so. If the concern can not be clarified that
way, it should be discussed more public maybe on ppmc or pmc level.
6.) The interesting thing for me is; what motivation could such private
mailings have. IMHO it is private interest which somehow contradict with
the target communitie's/project's interests.
How can that be? I guess because of commercial, business strategic
and/or marketing interest.
REMINDER: We should keep this discussion on an abstract level.
--
Rolf Kulemann
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Re: [OT] How to prevent abusing Apache priviliges
Posted by thorsten <th...@apache.org>.
Sorry for starting this thread in two list but I was not sure where to
post it in the first place.
My intention was not to make noise! If I did I am very sorry for that.
I will answer the thread in incubator.
spot
thorsten
El sáb, 16-10-2004 a las 04:53, Roy T. Fielding escribió:
> > A few weeks ago, many people encouraged Niclas Hedhman not to bring
> > private matters into the public here. Now, some people want this
> > issue brought into public, whereas others say it should be handled
> > only with the Incubator PMC, or possibly the Board.
>
> The general at incubator mailing list is a public list. Anyone
> interested
> in participating in the incubation of new projects should join it. That
> is where such topics are discussed. Cross-posting to two public lists,
> when one of which is responsible for the topic and the other (community)
> is not responsible for much of anything, only generates noise.
>
> I don't like noise. It interferes with progress.
>
> ....Roy
>
>
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Re: [OT] How to prevent abusing Apache priviliges
Posted by "Roy T. Fielding" <fi...@gbiv.com>.
> A few weeks ago, many people encouraged Niclas Hedhman not to bring
> private matters into the public here. Now, some people want this
> issue brought into public, whereas others say it should be handled
> only with the Incubator PMC, or possibly the Board.
The general at incubator mailing list is a public list. Anyone
interested
in participating in the incubation of new projects should join it. That
is where such topics are discussed. Cross-posting to two public lists,
when one of which is responsible for the topic and the other (community)
is not responsible for much of anything, only generates noise.
I don't like noise. It interferes with progress.
....Roy
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Re: [OT] How to prevent abusing Apache priviliges
Posted by Dave Brondsema <br...@apache.org>.
Steven Noels wrote:
> On 15 Oct 2004, at 02:11, thorsten wrote:
>
>> what if incubating mentors would abuse their powers to interfer with the
>> normal evolution of Apache incubation projects.
>
>
> Hm. That's quite some statement to make. Any fact to back that up?
>
> Of course, this could and should not happen - ever. But seriously: how
> would such "power" lay in the hands of mentors? Isn't someone supposed
> to disregard such pushy politics, whatever their origin is?
>
> But first and foremost, I'd like to know if and where this has been
> happening - because you seem to suggest so.
>
> </Steven>
A few weeks ago, many people encouraged Niclas Hedhman not to bring
private matters into the public here. Now, some people want this issue
brought into public, whereas others say it should be handled only with
the Incubator PMC, or possibly the Board.
Upon further thinking, I see that you, Steven, are on the Incubator PMC
so perhaps you wanted to know about this, but in private. If so, that
wasn't entirely clear.
Let's keep our signals straight.
--
Dave Brondsema
Re: [OT] How to prevent abusing Apache priviliges
Posted by Rolf Kulemann <ro...@apache.org>.
On Sun, 2004-10-17 at 02:05, Jochen Wiedmann wrote:
> thorsten wrote:
>
> > Ok, I am not a native speaker but
> > ...what if incubating mentors would abuse...
> > is a subjunctive! I did *not* say that they did or do!
> >
> > Lets just asume that is just blue-skying!!!
>
> If any Apache committer abuses his shell account, he could well ...
This wasn't the usecase here....it was "sending private emails to
(possible) commiters to discourage them". This is different from abusing
shell. Well, ok, you can write emails using a shell, but I guess you
meant it more general.
>
> Sorry, but if we start to discuss such issues without real background,
> it would never end. My thoughts, obviously not yours.
I do not think so. The approach to contact board or other PMC members
privately in order to tell them, if the usecase happens, is a good
approach, imho.
I propose to engrave a sentence in bug red letters somewhere, which
tells commiters how to react in such a situation. It will also prevent
such happenings and it will prevent that this issue is discussed again
and again. Maybe it is already written somewhere?
BTW: The usecase is also possible for non incubating projects. It can
happen everywhere.
--
Rolf Kulemann
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Re: [OT] How to prevent abusing Apache priviliges
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>.
thorsten wrote:
>
> I just wanted to make sure that abusing of priviliges will be *in the
> future* impossible to make sure new projects have a fair chance to develop!
>
> I did not want make noise! I just though it is a good idea to establish
> a set of rules against abuse of priviliges in the incubator!
If we tried to "make rules" to cover every situation that
"might" arise then we would not get time to do anything else.
> spot
> thorsten
>
> P.S. I find it quite harsh that you (as mentor) thing this is FUD mail
> making waves on various Apache lists!!!
If it helps, then i too think that doing it in this way
spreads FUD. If such musing needs to be raised at all,
then please commence on your project's Project Management
Committee (or the Incubator PMC) and see where it goes.
The PMC mailing lists are open to allow anyone to raise
sensitive issues.
I do admire your concern for ASF processes, but such
discussions need to happen in another forum.
--
David Crossley
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Re: [OT] How to prevent abusing Apache priviliges
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>.
thorsten wrote:
> Thanks Ted for doing that.
>
> This kind of document I had in mine. You have been smarter then me.
Thanks to everyone for re-starting this again.
We need to distill the wealth of knowledge
to provide guidelines.
Thorsten, because you were brave enough to raise
such thorny issues, the docs effort is moving again.
So who is the smarter?
> I want to help as well!!!
Me too. Sounds like a "documentation team" forming.
--
David Crossley
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Re: [OT] How to prevent abusing Apache priviliges
Posted by thorsten <th...@apache.org>.
Thanks Ted for doing that.
This kind of document I had in mine. You have been smarter then me.
I want to help as well!!!
spot
thorsten
Ted Husted wrote:
> On Mon, 18 Oct 2004 19:28:56 -0400, J Aaron Farr wrote:
>
>> Where are you working on this? I'd love to help.
>>
>> jaaron
>
>
> We should probably work on it in the Incubator repository. Perhaps as a standalone whiteboard document first, and then as the Projects page, when it's ready for prime time.
>
> If you want to start the ball rolling by reducing the outline to XML, that would be great. So far, that's all I have down.
>
> -Ted.
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Re: [OT] How to prevent abusing Apache priviliges
Posted by Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org>.
On Mon, 18 Oct 2004 19:28:56 -0400, J Aaron Farr wrote:
>�Where are you working on this? �I'd love to help.
>
>�jaaron
We should probably work on it in the Incubator repository. Perhaps as a standalone whiteboard document first, and then as the Projects page, when it's ready for prime time.
If you want to start the ball rolling by reducing the outline to XML, that would be great. So far, that's all I have down.
-Ted.
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Re: [OT] How to prevent abusing Apache priviliges
Posted by J Aaron Farr <fa...@apache.org>.
Ted Husted wrote:
> Part of what it means to be an Apache is that it's not about "rules", it's about consensus. As far as rules do go, I think the closest we may ever get is:
>
> * http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html
>
> As I'm going through the mentoring process myself, I'm working on expanding the Mentor and Project Guide, so that it's easier for people (including the Mentor!) to find out more about the ASF on their own. Right now, the Mentor and Project Guide is just a stub:
>
> * http://incubator.apache.org/guides/projects.html
>
> In case anyone has any input, here's a draft outline of what I had in mind:
<snip/>
Ted,
Where are you working on this? I'd love to help.
jaaron
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Re: [OT] How to prevent abusing Apache priviliges
Posted by Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org>.
On Mon, 18 Oct 2004 17:01:17 -0700, Robin Antony wrote:
> Hi all,
> I have been following this thread with quite some interest. IMO
> there should be a set of rules to let the novice commiters know
> when a ASF veteran who is guiding the team is really crossing the
> line. There should be a do and don't about what ASF members are
> supposed to do and not supposed to do. What are the interest they
> should be protecting. When does it become against the policies of
> ASF. In most cases people do it due to ignorance or just a mistake
> on their part. But if they did know the basic values and ideal that
> they have to protect then the chances of making these mistakes
> become less probable. What do u guys think? Cheers, Robin Antony
Part of what it means to be an Apache is that it's not about "rules", it's about consensus. As far as rules do go, I think the closest we may ever get is:
* http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html
As I'm going through the mentoring process myself, I'm working on expanding the Mentor and Project Guide, so that it's easier for people (including the Mentor!) to find out more about the ASF on their own. Right now, the Mentor and Project Guide is just a stub:
* http://incubator.apache.org/guides/projects.html
In case anyone has any input, here's a draft outline of what I had in mind:
Mentor and Project Guide
Mentor: Read Me First (if you haven't lately)
* How the ASF works (http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html)
* Committers CVS module (soon to be SVN folder)
* STATUS
* docs/committer-newbie.txt
* docs/project-creation.txt
* Apache Developer Resources (http://apache.org/dev/)
* Apache Incubator Website (http://incubator.apache.org/)
Prepping your team
* How the ASF works (http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html)
* CLAs - Can they sign them?
* Code Grant - Can we get one?
* Resources
* See also - committers:/docs/project-creation.txt
* SVN or CVS?
* Jira or Bugzilla?
* Jira FAQ - http://nagoya.apache.org/wiki/apachewiki.cgi?JIRA
* Mailing lists?
* Right now, only Berin Lautenbach or Noel J. Bergman should create publicly archived mailing lists, since they are the only ones with the karma and/or knowledge to do it properly.
Pitching the project
* Subscribe to general@incubator.apache.org (or digest).
* It's a public list, every team member can subscribe.
* The pre-proposal proposal
* The wiki page
* File CLAs if you can
* The proposal
* Follow the template
* The vote
Infrastructure, infrastructure, infrastructure
* s/ me first - committers:/docs/project-creation.txt
* Requesting the lists
* Requesting the tracker
* Requesting the repository
* Requesting accounts
* 2nd choice
Getting the team started
* Read Me First: Them too.
* Particularly: committers:/doc/resources.txt (private resources)
* The Incubator status page
* Checkout repository from SVN
* Install a recent revision of Forrest (i.e. ).
* Test build site
* Follow step-by-step in incubator:/site-author/projects/incubation-status-template.cwiki
* Rebuild site
* Commit or submit patch
* The STATUS report
Keeping it going
* Quarterly status reports
* Incubator reports in October
* Less is more. STATUS isn't status.
-Ted
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Re: [OT] How to prevent abusing Apache priviliges
Posted by Jochen Wiedmann <jo...@freenet.de>.
Robin Antony wrote:
> I have been following this thread with quite some interest. IMO there
> should be a set of rules to let the novice commiters know when a ASF
> veteran who is guiding the team is really crossing the line. There
> should be a do and don't about what ASF members are supossed to do and
> not supossed to do. What are the interest they should be protecting.
> When does it become against the policies of ASF. In most cases people do
> it due to ignorance or just a mistake on their part. But if they did
> know the basic values and ideal that they have to protect then the
> chances of making these mistakes become less probable. What do u guys
> think?
IMO, you are arguing for guidelines, what *the novice committer* should
do. Indeed, these guidelines can be justified with the interests of the
ASF, to which the mentor possibly refers. The main difference is, that
these guidelines can be very well based on actual problems that have
arised in the past.
OTOH, if the mentor requests more than such guidelines, the novice is of
course free to ask "Why?". And if the answer isn't satisfying, for
whatever reason, then the problem can very well be delegated to
general@incubator or pmc@incubator, both of which are the dedicated
fallbacks.
Jochen
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Re: [OT] How to prevent abusing Apache priviliges
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
On 19 Oct 2004, at 02:01, Robin Antony wrote:
> I have been following this thread with quite some interest. IMO there
> should be a set of rules to let the novice commiters know when a ASF
> veteran who is guiding the team is really crossing the line. There
> should be a do and don't about what ASF members are supossed to do and
> not supossed to do. What are the interest they should be protecting.
> When does it become against the policies of ASF. In most cases people
> do it due to ignorance or just a mistake on their part. But if they
> did know the basic values and ideal that they have to protect then the
> chances of making these mistakes become less probable. What do u guys
> think?
As I am trying to indicate, we should do this on a case-by-case basis,
and not by establishing another set of rules. Keep in mind that mentors
are volunteers, who obviously also have other things to do. If their
actions become routinely scrutinized against a set of rules, one can
easily foresee a diminishing amount of volunteering - hence less
incubation processes. A simple rule however could be that incubatees
should have two mentors.
And please, there _is_ already an incubator PMC, with a non-public
mailing list, and I'm sure anyone on that list is ready & willing to
address case-by-case issues.
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source Java & XML An Orixo Member
Read my weblog at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org
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Re: [OT] How to prevent abusing Apache priviliges
Posted by Robin Antony <ro...@opensi.net>.
Hi all,
I have been following this thread with quite some interest. IMO there
should be a set of rules to let the novice commiters know when a ASF
veteran who is guiding the team is really crossing the line. There
should be a do and don't about what ASF members are supossed to do and
not supossed to do. What are the interest they should be protecting.
When does it become against the policies of ASF. In most cases people do
it due to ignorance or just a mistake on their part. But if they did
know the basic values and ideal that they have to protect then the
chances of making these mistakes become less probable. What do u guys think?
Cheers,
Robin Antony
Steven Noels wrote:
> On 18 Oct 2004, at 02:19, thorsten wrote:
>
>> Steven Noels wrote:
>>
>>> Nope. What Thorsten describes looks pretty bad IMO, so I want to
>>> know what is going on. Otherwise, this shouldn't have been posted at
>>> all. No need to keep the dust under the carpet. And if Thorsten
>>> doesn't want to go public with it - he should post on pmc@i.a.o.
>>> Talking about the issue doesn't have anything to do with forwarding
>>> private mails to public/private lists.
>>
>>
>> I did not want to do that because I thought we could make rules
>> against thus abuse in the future without reviewing the past. I
>> believe in the "second change". Like Roy said "Keep in mind that
>> mentors are human
>> too and they sometimes make mistakes."
>>
>>> I will not vote on policy which makes no sense or is based on
>>> unproven facts from the past.
>>
>>
>> I really do not see your point that this policy do not make sense!
>
>
> Sure. Do you really think that establishing such a rule will refrain
> people from being human, and making mistakes? You just want a stick to
> beat them if they make a mistake? If mistakes are to be expected, and
> based on factual stuff (such as licensing, release guidelines, etc),
> I'm all +1 on establishing rules. If you want a rule that "allows" you
> to deface someone by talking to his management, I'm pretty sure you're
> looking in the wrong place. What would need to be in that rule? Public
> punishment? Having a postbox for dropping unfounded claims into? Sorry
> but I really don't understand what you want to establish with this
> discussion, other than substantiating FUD.
>
>> I started this abstract thread to prevent that things from happening
>> *in the future*.
>>
>> On the one hand you say
>> "doesn't have anything to do with forwarding private mails to
>> public/private lists."
>> on the other hand you speaking of "unproven facts". How can I prove
>> the abuse without doing so?
>
>
> By being brave and send a description of these facts to either this
> list or the pmc list. You don't need to forward private mails for
> that. Just tell people who did what.
>
>>> I don't think so and they are appreciated. But I'm not sure this
>>> will lead us anywhere if Thorsten doesn't speak factually. I've
>>> quite had it with the amount of FUD mails making waves on various
>>> Apache lists.
>>> </Steven>
>>
>>
>> Ok, I see that we will not be able to establish some rules without
>> speaking factually. I will post the actual use case to the incubator
>> pmc list.
>>
>> This was *NOT* my intention when I started this thread!
>
>
> Tough luck, IMHO.
>
> </Steven>
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Re: [OT] How to prevent abusing Apache priviliges
Posted by Erik Abele <er...@codefaktor.de>.
On 18.10.2004, at 13:34, Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> On Monday 18 October 2004 19:05, Santiago Gala wrote:
>> El lun, 18-10-2004 a las 11:08 +0200, Stephen McConnell escribió:
>
>>> Seems to me that he's talking about a very real dark-side of the
>>> ASF.
>>
>> Facts? I would like to see something substantial.
Same here. Maybe I'm blind but where is this 'dark-side ... where
certain individuals enjoy playing
with private lists, protected themselves while at same time spreading
lies, slander, and real fear'? Board@? Members@? Security@? pmc@xxx?
Facts please...
> Perhaps this is "culture", I don't know. But I have the distinct
> feeling that
> more stuff than necessary are pushed into private forums. I happen to
> think
> (and I think Steve is of the same opinion) that there is very little
> in OSS
> that needs the secrecy.
Agreed, only staff-related discussions (new committers, members, ...)
and security-related things spring to mind. Most of the rest should be
public.
> Other people in ASF is obviously of a different opinion, as my bashing
> on
> community@ some weeks ago made brutally obvious.
Well, another recent thread on community@ showed that there's *no*
majority in favor of a committers-private list, so...
> One should compare it with a company, where secrecy is the norm, and
> chain of command is
> from above downwards.
Uh - chain of command? Company? Am I missing something? This is a
meritocracy based on volunteers, nothing more, nothing less. As
everything, it comes with it's advantages and it's disadvantages but
I'm really failing to see that secrecy and a company-like command
structure is 'the norm' here.
Cheers,
Erik
RE: [OT] How to prevent abusing Apache priviliges
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> there is very little in OSS that needs the secrecy
Most people would certainly agree on that issue. Roy makes a habit of
poking at people for having threads on a PMC list that should be on a public
one.
> Other people in ASF is obviously of a different opinion, as my
> bashing on community@ some weeks ago made brutally obvious.
The issue in that case was nothing more than criticizing you for a violation
of basic netiquette: you don't take someone's private message and post it on
a public forum without first discussing it with the author(s).
--- Noel
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Re: [OT] How to prevent abusing Apache priviliges
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
On Monday 18 October 2004 19:05, Santiago Gala wrote:
> El lun, 18-10-2004 a las 11:08 +0200, Stephen McConnell escribió:
> > Seems to me that he's talking about a very real dark-side of the
> > ASF.
>
> Facts? I would like to see something substantial.
Perhaps this is "culture", I don't know. But I have the distinct feeling that
more stuff than necessary are pushed into private forums. I happen to think
(and I think Steve is of the same opinion) that there is very little in OSS
that needs the secrecy.
Other people in ASF is obviously of a different opinion, as my bashing on
community@ some weeks ago made brutally obvious.
Do I really think there is a big conspiracy behind it all? No, I don't.
Everyone is acting at each instance independently and in a belief it is the
right way. So do government agencies when they gradually eat away your
liberties, each change for a 'good cause'. In a democracy, there are
organizations that track this and raise the flags, run debates and so on.
But then again, one should not compare ASF with a democracy. One should
compare it with a company, where secrecy is the norm, and chain of command is
from above downwards.
Cheers
Niclas
--
+------//-------------------+
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/ http://niclas.hedhman.org /
+------//-------------------+
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RE: [OT] How to prevent abusing Apache priviliges
Posted by Santiago Gala <sg...@hisitech.com>.
El lun, 18-10-2004 a las 11:08 +0200, Stephen McConnell escribió:
>
> FUD?
>
Fear Uncertainty and Doubt. What he started to sew, maybe unwillingly
and you're trying to scrap benefits from now.
> Seems to me that he's talking about a very real dark-side of the
> ASF.
>
Facts? I would like to see something substantial.
> You know - the side of Apache where certain individuals enjoy playing
> with private lists, protected themselves while at same time spreading
> lies, slander, and real fear. Mix this with the incubator and you
> have
> a recipe for abuse. Yes - there should be a code of conduct. Yes -
> everyone should be accountable - including each and every member of
> the
> board. Will it happen? It seems to me a highly unlikely scenario.
>
I don't know any of the involved in the discussions around, but I'm
quite sure, from my observer role in several "members-only" lists in the
ASF, that this dark side that you speak about does not exist. And it
would be extremely difficult to have it going secretly in a 130+ members
organization, with very diverse interests.
> Just my 0.02c.
>
> Cheers, Stephen.
I only have a question that has been puzzling a lot me since this thread
started, and I would like thorsten to answer it:
why was the original message labelled off-topic [OT] ?
Regards
--
Santiago Gala <sg...@hisitech.com>
High Sierra Technology, SLU
RE: [OT] How to prevent abusing Apache priviliges
Posted by Stephen McConnell <mc...@apache.org>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steven Noels [mailto:stevenn@outerthought.org]
> Sent: 18 October 2004 10:43
> To: general@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: [OT] How to prevent abusing Apache priviliges
>
> On 18 Oct 2004, at 02:19, thorsten wrote:
>
> > Steven Noels wrote:
> >> Nope. What Thorsten describes looks pretty bad IMO, so I want to
know
> >> what is going on. Otherwise, this shouldn't have been posted at
all.
> >> No need to keep the dust under the carpet. And if Thorsten doesn't
> >> want to go public with it - he should post on pmc@i.a.o. Talking
> >> about the issue doesn't have anything to do with forwarding private
> >> mails to public/private lists.
> >
> > I did not want to do that because I thought we could make rules
> > against thus abuse in the future without reviewing the past. I
believe
> > in the "second change". Like Roy said "Keep in mind that mentors are
> > human
> > too and they sometimes make mistakes."
> >
> >> I will not vote on policy which makes no sense or is based on
> >> unproven facts from the past.
> >
> > I really do not see your point that this policy do not make sense!
>
> Sure. Do you really think that establishing such a rule will refrain
> people from being human, and making mistakes? You just want a stick to
> beat them if they make a mistake? If mistakes are to be expected, and
> based on factual stuff (such as licensing, release guidelines, etc),
> I'm all +1 on establishing rules. If you want a rule that "allows" you
> to deface someone by talking to his management, I'm pretty sure you're
> looking in the wrong place. What would need to be in that rule? Public
> punishment? Having a postbox for dropping unfounded claims into? Sorry
> but I really don't understand what you want to establish with this
> discussion, other than substantiating FUD.
FUD?
Seems to me that he's talking about a very real dark-side of the ASF.
You know - the side of Apache where certain individuals enjoy playing
with private lists, protected themselves while at same time spreading
lies, slander, and real fear. Mix this with the incubator and you have
a recipe for abuse. Yes - there should be a code of conduct. Yes -
everyone should be accountable - including each and every member of the
board. Will it happen? It seems to me a highly unlikely scenario.
Just my 0.02c.
Cheers, Stephen.
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RE: [OT] How to prevent abusing Apache priviliges
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
thorsten wrote:
> I thought we could make rules against thus abuse in the future
> without reviewing the past.
I understand your concern, but we don't need to program communities. We
need human judgment. We need to ask people to step up, be responsible, and
do the right thing. The difference of opinion between you and Steven, for
example, seems to be just a matter of how to address the situation where
someone is doing something that they shouldn't be doing.
Every committer should be considering the best interests of the project. If
they feel that someone is acting in a way counter to the project's best
interest, that is something to take up with the project's PMC. If the PMC
doesn't address it, one could raise it to the Board. If the Board doesn't
address it, one could raise it to the Membership.
> Ok, I see that we will not be able to establish some rules without
> speaking factually. I will post the actual use case to the incubator
> pmc list.
Well, if there was a perceived abuse, then we can deal with it, which is
what has been said in the first place.
--- Noel
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Re: [OT] How to prevent abusing Apache priviliges
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
On 18 Oct 2004, at 02:19, thorsten wrote:
> Steven Noels wrote:
>> Nope. What Thorsten describes looks pretty bad IMO, so I want to know
>> what is going on. Otherwise, this shouldn't have been posted at all.
>> No need to keep the dust under the carpet. And if Thorsten doesn't
>> want to go public with it - he should post on pmc@i.a.o. Talking
>> about the issue doesn't have anything to do with forwarding private
>> mails to public/private lists.
>
> I did not want to do that because I thought we could make rules
> against thus abuse in the future without reviewing the past. I believe
> in the "second change". Like Roy said "Keep in mind that mentors are
> human
> too and they sometimes make mistakes."
>
>> I will not vote on policy which makes no sense or is based on
>> unproven facts from the past.
>
> I really do not see your point that this policy do not make sense!
Sure. Do you really think that establishing such a rule will refrain
people from being human, and making mistakes? You just want a stick to
beat them if they make a mistake? If mistakes are to be expected, and
based on factual stuff (such as licensing, release guidelines, etc),
I'm all +1 on establishing rules. If you want a rule that "allows" you
to deface someone by talking to his management, I'm pretty sure you're
looking in the wrong place. What would need to be in that rule? Public
punishment? Having a postbox for dropping unfounded claims into? Sorry
but I really don't understand what you want to establish with this
discussion, other than substantiating FUD.
> I started this abstract thread to prevent that things from happening
> *in the future*.
>
> On the one hand you say
> "doesn't have anything to do with forwarding private mails to
> public/private lists."
> on the other hand you speaking of "unproven facts". How can I prove
> the abuse without doing so?
By being brave and send a description of these facts to either this
list or the pmc list. You don't need to forward private mails for that.
Just tell people who did what.
>> I don't think so and they are appreciated. But I'm not sure this will
>> lead us anywhere if Thorsten doesn't speak factually. I've quite had
>> it with the amount of FUD mails making waves on various Apache lists.
>> </Steven>
>
> Ok, I see that we will not be able to establish some rules without
> speaking factually. I will post the actual use case to the incubator
> pmc list.
>
> This was *NOT* my intention when I started this thread!
Tough luck, IMHO.
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source Java & XML An Orixo Member
Read my weblog at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org
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Re: [OT] How to prevent abusing Apache priviliges
Posted by Martin van den Bemt <ml...@mvdb.net>.
> >
> > I will not vote on policy which makes no sense or is based on unproven
> > facts from the past.
>
> I really do not see your point that this policy do not make sense!
>
> I started this abstract thread to prevent that things from happening *in
> the future*.
Rules don't prevent anything from happening!
Unless you are living in Utopia of course..
It's just a matter of oversight and common sense
Mvgr,
Martin
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Re: [OT] How to prevent abusing Apache priviliges
Posted by thorsten <th...@apache.org>.
Steven Noels wrote:
> Nope. What Thorsten describes looks pretty bad IMO, so I want to know
> what is going on. Otherwise, this shouldn't have been posted at all. No
> need to keep the dust under the carpet. And if Thorsten doesn't want to
> go public with it - he should post on pmc@i.a.o. Talking about the issue
> doesn't have anything to do with forwarding private mails to
> public/private lists.
I did not want to do that because I thought we could make rules against
thus abuse in the future without reviewing the past. I believe in the
"second change". Like Roy said "Keep in mind that mentors are human
too and they sometimes make mistakes."
>
> I will not vote on policy which makes no sense or is based on unproven
> facts from the past.
I really do not see your point that this policy do not make sense!
I started this abstract thread to prevent that things from happening *in
the future*.
On the one hand you say
"doesn't have anything to do with forwarding private mails to
public/private lists."
on the other hand you speaking of "unproven facts". How can I prove the
abuse without doing so?
>
> I don't think so and they are appreciated. But I'm not sure this will
> lead us anywhere if Thorsten doesn't speak factually. I've quite had it
> with the amount of FUD mails making waves on various Apache lists.
>
> </Steven>
Ok, I see that we will not be able to establish some rules without
speaking factually. I will post the actual use case to the incubator pmc
list.
This was *NOT* my intention when I started this thread!
I just wanted to make sure that abusing of priviliges will be *in the
future* impossible to make sure new projects have a fair chance to develop!
I did not want make noise! I just though it is a good idea to establish
a set of rules against abuse of priviliges in the incubator!
spot
thorsten
P.S. I find it quite harsh that you (as mentor) thing this is FUD mail
making waves on various Apache lists!!!
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Re: [OT] How to prevent abusing Apache priviliges
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
On 17 Oct 2004, at 16:10, Rolf Kulemann wrote:
> <em>
> I like very much more the approach to send private mail to the source,
> too, because maybe the first (or following related) private mails were
> misunderstood and talking about that freely would make unnecessary
> noise
> and would invlove people, which again misinterpret it.
> </em>
>
> Don't you like the idea?
Nope. What Thorsten describes looks pretty bad IMO, so I want to know
what is going on. Otherwise, this shouldn't have been posted at all. No
need to keep the dust under the carpet. And if Thorsten doesn't want to
go public with it - he should post on pmc@i.a.o. Talking about the
issue doesn't have anything to do with forwarding private mails to
public/private lists.
>> (and imagine yourself being an outsider reading this thread: how would
>> you read it? what would you think of the incubator, or the ASF as a
>> whole?)
>
> I guess this thread isn't damaging anything, because it's as you say
> "blue skying" (I prefer the word abstract here). I for myself could
> imagine that's interesting to outsiders, too, since it shows that we
> care about such things.
I don't see how speaking factually rather than conceptually would
change showing how we care about it.
> 5.) Engrave sense making options from above somewhere appropriate that
> we do not need to discuss it again. This is maybe an incubator task, if
> at all.
I will not vote on policy which makes no sense or is based on unproven
facts from the past.
> I hope my contributions to this thread are not misinterpreted.
I don't think so and they are appreciated. But I'm not sure this will
lead us anywhere if Thorsten doesn't speak factually. I've quite had it
with the amount of FUD mails making waves on various Apache lists.
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source Java & XML An Orixo Member
Read my weblog at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org
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Re: [OT] How to prevent abusing Apache priviliges
Posted by Rolf Kulemann <ro...@apache.org>.
On Sun, 2004-10-17 at 15:14, Steven Noels wrote:
> Speak freely
> and your voice will be heard. We're all here to learn.
That is maybe why the thread was started, dunno, and I really already
learned from it, since I'm not very ASF experienced, yet. If Thorsten
would have known better, he wouldn't have started the thread.
I guess speaking freely about such a _possible_ happening is the main
problem here, since private mails are involved, but maybe privacy of
emails and netikette do not matter to everybody, but to me.
Of course your idea of "speaking freely" would be an option (see below).
<em>
I like very much more the approach to send private mail to the source,
too, because maybe the first (or following related) private mails were
misunderstood and talking about that freely would make unnecessary noise
and would invlove people, which again misinterpret it.
</em>
Don't you like the idea?
>
> (and imagine yourself being an outsider reading this thread: how would
> you read it? what would you think of the incubator, or the ASF as a
> whole?)
I guess this thread isn't damaging anything, because it's as you say
"blue skying" (I prefer the word abstract here). I for myself could
imagine that's interesting to outsiders, too, since it shows that we
care about such things.
To summarize the ideas up to now:
1.) send back a private mail to clarify maybe with another ASF veteran
(or another appropriate person) on cc -> good idea :)
2.) Just talk freely about such a matter on a closed list like *pmc*@ ->
depends on the concrete facts
3.) Just talk freely about such a matter on open not backed up lists
like incubator@ -> depends on the concrete facts
4.) Just talk freely about such a matter on open backed up lists like
community@ or *-(dev|users)@ -> obviously a really bad idea
Additional to the above items:
5.) Engrave sense making options from above somewhere appropriate that
we do not need to discuss it again. This is maybe an incubator task, if
at all.
<em>
I really do not like number 3.) and 4.). I think number 5.) is a must,
but that's maybe only my opinion. Number 1,2, depending on the facts,
are my personal favorites.
</em>
I think it is absolutely ok to clarify what is the best way to
communicate and clarify such sensitive problems and I can not understand
this pressure making related to "come and say whats happened dude".
I hope my contributions to this thread are not misinterpreted.
My one Euro :)
--
Rolf Kulemann
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Re: [OT] How to prevent abusing Apache priviliges
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
On 17 Oct 2004, at 02:31, thorsten wrote:
> Jochen Wiedmann wrote:
>> thorsten wrote:
>>> Ok, I am not a native speaker but
>>> ...what if incubating mentors would abuse...
>>> is a subjunctive! I did *not* say that they did or do!
>>>
>>> Lets just asume that is just blue-skying!!!
>> If any Apache committer abuses his shell account, he could well ...
>> Sorry, but if we start to discuss such issues without real
>> background, it would never end. My thoughts, obviously not yours.
>
> I did not said that there is not a real background!
>
> <snip>
> Rolf Kulemann wrote:
> > REMINDER: We should keep this discussion on an abstract level.
> <snip>
Well - I think rules are best set from practice rather than theory.
Otherwise we just end up bluesky-FUD-ing without a particular reason or
motivation. I think we must face that OSS communities are a bit more
reactive rather than proactive if it comes to guidelines, policies,
legal matters, etc.
So, while the event you are referring to sounds really important to me,
I will now refrain from further participation in this thread. That's
wrong, but you must understand that this position comes from a mentor
of one of the projects you are participating with, which is now utterly
lost and wondering what you are _really_ talking about. Speak freely
and your voice will be heard. We're all here to learn.
(and imagine yourself being an outsider reading this thread: how would
you read it? what would you think of the incubator, or the ASF as a
whole?)
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source Java & XML An Orixo Member
Read my weblog at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
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Re: [OT] How to prevent abusing Apache priviliges
Posted by thorsten <th...@apache.org>.
Jochen Wiedmann wrote:
> thorsten wrote:
>
>> Ok, I am not a native speaker but
>> ...what if incubating mentors would abuse...
>> is a subjunctive! I did *not* say that they did or do!
>>
>> Lets just asume that is just blue-skying!!!
>
>
> If any Apache committer abuses his shell account, he could well ...
>
> Sorry, but if we start to discuss such issues without real background,
> it would never end. My thoughts, obviously not yours.
I did not said that there is not a real background!
<snip>
Rolf Kulemann wrote:
> REMINDER: We should keep this discussion on an abstract level.
<snip>
spot
thorsten
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Re: [OT] How to prevent abusing Apache priviliges
Posted by Jochen Wiedmann <jo...@freenet.de>.
thorsten wrote:
> Ok, I am not a native speaker but
> ...what if incubating mentors would abuse...
> is a subjunctive! I did *not* say that they did or do!
>
> Lets just asume that is just blue-skying!!!
If any Apache committer abuses his shell account, he could well ...
Sorry, but if we start to discuss such issues without real background,
it would never end. My thoughts, obviously not yours.
Jochen
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http://lilypie.com/baby1/050423/1/5/1/+1
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Re: [OT] How to prevent abusing Apache priviliges
Posted by thorsten <th...@apache.org>.
Steven Noels wrote:
> On 15 Oct 2004, at 02:11, thorsten wrote:
>
>> what if incubating mentors would abuse their powers to interfer with the
>> normal evolution of Apache incubation projects.
>
>
> Hm. That's quite some statement to make. Any fact to back that up?
>
Ok, I am not a native speaker but
...what if incubating mentors would abuse...
is a subjunctive! I did *not* say that they did or do!
Lets just asume that is just blue-skying!!!
> Of course, this could and should not happen - ever.
It *could* but it *should* not happen - ever.
It already could have happend but this is not the subject of the thread:
How to *prevent* abusing Apache priviliges (better: ~ in the future)
... Isn't someone supposed
> to disregard such pushy politics, whatever their origin is?
>
Yes!!! ...but that should be stated in some guideliness for incubating
projects. I suggest to report any such politics to a trusted board
member directly.
> But first and foremost, I'd like to know if and where this has been
> happening - because you seem to suggest so.
<snip>
El vie, 15-10-2004 a las 23:02, Dave Brondsema escribió:
A few weeks ago, many people encouraged Niclas Hedhman not to bring
> private matters into the public here.
</snip>
If this had happend before and I would know about that I still would not
bring private matters into the public!!! I agree with Dave and others
that this would be the wrong approach.
<snip>
El vie, 15-10-2004 a las 02:36, Roy T. Fielding escribió:
Is this a rhetorical question, or do you have some specific example
> in mind that you want corrected? Keep in mind that mentors are human
> too and they sometimes make mistakes.
</snip>
The aim of this thread is to set up rules to prevent such things from
happening in the future.
I do not thing that we could correct such abuse happend in the past. The
damage would have already been done and could be only be fixed by the
abusing mentor.
spot
thorsten
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Re: [OT] How to prevent abusing Apache priviliges
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
On 15 Oct 2004, at 02:11, thorsten wrote:
> what if incubating mentors would abuse their powers to interfer with
> the
> normal evolution of Apache incubation projects.
Hm. That's quite some statement to make. Any fact to back that up?
Of course, this could and should not happen - ever. But seriously: how
would such "power" lay in the hands of mentors? Isn't someone supposed
to disregard such pushy politics, whatever their origin is?
But first and foremost, I'd like to know if and where this has been
happening - because you seem to suggest so.
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source Java & XML An Orixo Member
Read my weblog at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org
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Re: [OT] How to prevent abusing Apache priviliges
Posted by Dirk-Willem van Gulik <di...@webweaving.org>.
On Fri, 15 Oct 2004, thorsten wrote:
> what if incubating mentors would abuse their powers to interfer with the
> normal evolution of Apache incubation projects.
Please report any such issue to the PMC of the incubator; or in private to
any pmc member. If there are any trust issues with the PMC- please contact
any board member directly. If you want to discuss a theoreticla thing
general@incubator is the right place.
However cross posting to community@ is certainly not the most appropriate
thing to do.
Dw.
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Re: [OT] How to prevent abusing Apache priviliges
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
On 15 Oct 2004, at 02:11, thorsten wrote:
> what if incubating mentors would abuse their powers to interfer with
> the
> normal evolution of Apache incubation projects.
Hm. That's quite some statement to make. Any fact to back that up?
Of course, this could and should not happen - ever. But seriously: how
would such "power" lay in the hands of mentors? Isn't someone supposed
to disregard such pushy politics, whatever their origin is?
But first and foremost, I'd like to know if and where this has been
happening - because you seem to suggest so.
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source Java & XML An Orixo Member
Read my weblog at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org
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RE: [OT] How to prevent abusing Apache priviliges
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> what if incubating mentors would abuse their powers to interfer
> with the normal evolution of Apache incubation projects.
If such a thing were to happen, the Incubator PMC would address it.
--- Noel
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RE: [OT] How to prevent abusing Apache priviliges
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> what if incubating mentors would abuse their powers to interfer
> with the normal evolution of Apache incubation projects.
If such a thing were to happen, the Incubator PMC would address it.
--- Noel
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