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Posted to users@tomcat.apache.org by Biernatowski Bartosz J <Ba...@rxsol.com> on 2006/06/19 19:34:49 UTC
Tomcat's scalability
Hello,
I was hoping somebody on the list might point me in the right direction...
I am trying to scale up Tomcat based web application currently supporting
~100 users to 350 users.
It seems that I have enough hardware: 2 load balanced servers x 4 CPUs each
with 4 GB of RAM which is underutilized for most of the time even though
application performance slows dramatically at peak times.
I was advised to install multiple JVMs in order to improve Tomcat's
performance. Another option I considered was to install 2 instances
of Tomcat on each server to see whether it would handle increased load.
Would anybody know what kind of performance improvement would multiple
JVM/Tomcat installations provide? Are there any benchmarks available?
Thank you for any help!
BJ
BJ Biernatowski
Application Developer
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Re: Tomcat's scalability
Posted by Leon Rosenberg <ro...@googlemail.com>.
are you sure that tomcat is your bottleneck?
Your 4 CPU machine (which cpu's btw?) should be able to handle more
than 1000 users (unless you are speaking about suns cpu) without
problems. Maybe you should provide more info about your application.
Do you have any monitoring data?
Leon
On 6/19/06, Biernatowski Bartosz J <Ba...@rxsol.com> wrote:
> Hello,
> I was hoping somebody on the list might point me in the right direction...
>
> I am trying to scale up Tomcat based web application currently supporting
> ~100 users to 350 users.
>
> It seems that I have enough hardware: 2 load balanced servers x 4 CPUs each
> with 4 GB of RAM which is underutilized for most of the time even though
> application performance slows dramatically at peak times.
>
> I was advised to install multiple JVMs in order to improve Tomcat's
> performance. Another option I considered was to install 2 instances
> of Tomcat on each server to see whether it would handle increased load.
>
> Would anybody know what kind of performance improvement would multiple
> JVM/Tomcat installations provide? Are there any benchmarks available?
>
> Thank you for any help!
> BJ
>
> BJ Biernatowski
> Application Developer
>
> This e-mail, including attachments, may include confidential and/or proprietary information, and may be used only by the person or entity to which it is addressed. If the reader of this e-mail is not the intended recipient or his or her authorized agent, the reader is hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail, including its contents and attachments, is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by a "reply to sender only" message and delete this e-mail immediately and destroy all electronic and hard copies of the communication, including attachments.
>
>
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Re: Tomcat's scalability
Posted by Darryl Miles <da...@netbauds.net>.
Mladen Adamovic wrote:
>> Biernatowski, Is your HTTP application multi-threaded ?
> Irrelevant. Unimportant.
Why is that ? What happens if his app is using this line in JSP ?
<%@ page isThreadSafe="false" %>
Google is your friend.
> Or to have i.e. extremely large Lucene database or some other slow
> algorithm.
Why do you think he has lucene ? Did he mention lucene ? Or are you
asking hypothetically, if so how does that help him ?
Darryl
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Re: Tomcat's scalability
Posted by Mladen Adamovic <ad...@blic.net>.
Darryl Miles wrote:
>
> LOL. Each HTTP request/response cycle is handed off to a worker
> thread, the available worker threads are dynamically increased to cope
> with the number of the simultaneous HTTP requests being processed in
> the moment.
But isn't it Java threads. I'm speaking of operating system threads.
ps aux
> Biernatowski, Is your HTTP application multi-threaded ?
Irrelevant. Unimportant.
> What is the nature of the application, when you say there is a
> performance bottleneck how are you measuring it and what is the nature
> of the workload each request is doing.
It is important. Where is your bottleneck?
> There is a big difference between getting tomcat to serve static
> content and making your servlet do long running SQL jobs.
Or to have i.e. extremely large Lucene database or some other slow
algorithm.
--
Mladen Adamovic
http://www.online-utility.org http://www.shortopedia.com
http://www.froola.com http://www.gift-idea4u.com
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Re: Tomcat's scalability
Posted by Darryl Miles <da...@netbauds.net>.
Leon Rosenberg wrote:
> On 6/19/06, Mladen Adamovic <ad...@blic.net> wrote:
>> Leon Rosenberg wrote:
>> >> Teoreticly, your servers should be faster if you configure 4 Tomcat
>> >> instances (4 JVMs) to do round robin.
>> >> You should be able to improve performances almost 4x.
>> >>
>> > could you explain why??
>> Isn't Tomcat and JVM still single threaded?
>> Single thread = single processor usage
LOL. Each HTTP request/response cycle is handed off to a worker thread,
the available worker threads are dynamically increased to cope with the
number of the simultaneous HTTP requests being processed in the moment.
Biernatowski, Is your HTTP application multi-threaded ? What is the
nature of the application, when you say there is a performance
bottleneck how are you measuring it and what is the nature of the
workload each request is doing.
There is a big difference between getting tomcat to serve static content
and making your servlet do long running SQL jobs.
Do you have the apache httpd tool "ab", use it to get some hard
performance numbers to work out if particular URLs are the problem or of
everything is affected.
Darryl
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Re: Tomcat's scalability
Posted by Andrew Miehs <an...@2sheds.de>.
Not only.
The issue is really whether it make sense to use the operating systems
process table as a queue or not. Up until linux new threading model in
Linux kernel 2.6 this was definitely the case. The 2.6 threads are very
efficient, so most programmers will not notice a real performance
degredation due to context switching. Threads are great, as long as they
are used for the purposes of doing multiple jobs at a single time -
missusing them as a 'connection queue' though is IMHO not a very smart
idea - This is why I prefer ZEUS and Lighttpd instead of Apache as web
servers.
Andrew
Alex Turner wrote:
> This discussion focuses primarily on serving static files to a client, not
> processing dynamic web pages. Most people running tomcat are processing
> dynamic pages, like getting data from a database and compositing a page
> based on that data.
>
> An FTP site, or a static web site will typically be I/O bound or Network
> bound, and the only way to increase throughput it to increase the number of
> I/Os per second that your server can manage or increase the size of your
> network interface. A java based dynamic website is typically not I/O
> bound,
> but CPU bound, which posses a different set of challenges than a static FTP
> server.
>
> Alex.
>
> On 6/21/06, Andrew Miehs <an...@2sheds.de> wrote:
>
>>
>> Now that we are moving to the theoretical discussion, you will
>> probably want to have a look at
>>
>> http://www.kegel.com/c10k.html
>>
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Re: Tomcat's scalability
Posted by Alex Turner <ar...@gmail.com>.
This discussion focuses primarily on serving static files to a client, not
processing dynamic web pages. Most people running tomcat are processing
dynamic pages, like getting data from a database and compositing a page
based on that data.
An FTP site, or a static web site will typically be I/O bound or Network
bound, and the only way to increase throughput it to increase the number of
I/Os per second that your server can manage or increase the size of your
network interface. A java based dynamic website is typically not I/O bound,
but CPU bound, which posses a different set of challenges than a static FTP
server.
Alex.
On 6/21/06, Andrew Miehs <an...@2sheds.de> wrote:
>
> Now that we are moving to the theoretical discussion, you will
> probably want to have a look at
>
> http://www.kegel.com/c10k.html
>
> Regards
>
> Andrew
>
>
> On 21/06/2006, at 4:56 PM, Mladen Adamovic wrote:
>
> > I spoke recently with guy from Microsoft (project manager from
> > server division).
> > He said that heavily loaded web server don't lose much time to
> > switch processes but when you are out of free memory and server
> > start to swap, performances degrade dramatically.
> > I though that guy definitely knew what he was thought about.
> >
> > Lets see what operating system has to do when switch threads.
> > Just to move all registers to/from memory? Anything else?
>
>
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Re: Tomcat's scalability
Posted by Andrew Miehs <an...@2sheds.de>.
Now that we are moving to the theoretical discussion, you will
probably want to have a look at
http://www.kegel.com/c10k.html
Regards
Andrew
On 21/06/2006, at 4:56 PM, Mladen Adamovic wrote:
> I spoke recently with guy from Microsoft (project manager from
> server division).
> He said that heavily loaded web server don't lose much time to
> switch processes but when you are out of free memory and server
> start to swap, performances degrade dramatically.
> I though that guy definitely knew what he was thought about.
>
> Lets see what operating system has to do when switch threads.
> Just to move all registers to/from memory? Anything else?
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Re: Tomcat's scalability
Posted by Mladen Adamovic <ad...@blic.net>.
Alex Turner wrote:
> Please also note that having a max threads of 750 is pretty much
> gaurtenteed
> to cause your system to grind to a halt under high load. (Most linux
> systems I've seen buckle somewhere around a load average of 75 or so,
> which
> means 75 threads waiting for CPU time).
You mean 75 Java threads waiting for CPU time, because you can have 75
sleepy and not much CPU consuming processes.
Example from my home computer :
[adamm@localhost ~]$ ps -ely | nl | tail -n 1
105 S 500 4586 4508 0 76 0 540 1008 pipe_w pts/2
00:00:00 tail
[adamm@localhost ~]$
It means 105 processes in memory and I think is not unusual at all.
>
> but doing much more than 3 or 4 times the number of
> CPUs you have is only going to cause your system to spend more time in
> context switches, not in actual work time.
I spoke recently with guy from Microsoft (project manager from server
division).
He said that heavily loaded web server don't lose much time to switch
processes but when you are out of free memory and server start to swap,
performances degrade dramatically.
I though that guy definitely knew what he was thought about.
Lets see what operating system has to do when switch threads.
Just to move all registers to/from memory? Anything else?
> A number less than 32 is probably more than your system will ever be
> able to
> cope with if you are actualy doing any processing during the course of a
> request and not just serving static content.
I believe that is true. Probably you got that number experimental.
> It's usefull to do 30 seconds of googling to find Suns actual statement
> prior to posting and demostrating that 'AFAIK' is pretty lame, because
> you
> didn't bother to take the time to actualy find out.
Actually, I tried to find those information once and searched something
like:
"java windows multi thread" and I cannot see it clearly in first entries.
Probably I was supposed to refine my search...
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Re: Tomcat's scalability
Posted by Mladen Adamovic <ad...@blic.net>.
> Please see
> http://java.sun.com/developer/technicalArticles/Programming/linux/
> Java on linux has been natively multithreaded since 1.3
Uops,
I haven't known.
Thank you all for your information (to Alex Turner, Leon Rosenberg,
Darryl Milles).
I was mistaken about this.
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Re: Tomcat's scalability
Posted by Alex Turner <ar...@gmail.com>.
Please see
http://java.sun.com/developer/technicalArticles/Programming/linux/
Java on linux has been natively multithreaded since 1.3
Please also note that having a max threads of 750 is pretty much gaurtenteed
to cause your system to grind to a halt under high load. (Most linux
systems I've seen buckle somewhere around a load average of 75 or so, which
means 75 threads waiting for CPU time).
Bear in mind that if your application is CPU bound, then no more than the
number of CPUs you have can exucte threads at once, which on most systems is
either 2 or 4 CPUs, so just 2 or 4 threads!! If you have some IO, and there
is always some waiting on the OS to deliver network packets, so it's worth
queing threads up a bit, but doing much more than 3 or 4 times the number of
CPUs you have is only going to cause your system to spend more time in
context switches, not in actual work time. Setting maxThreads to 750 is
downright irresponsible.
A number less than 32 is probably more than your system will ever be able to
cope with if you are actualy doing any processing during the course of a
request and not just serving static content. (there are some background
threads for various things like garbage collection in the JVM and in tomcat,
so a few extra are also warranted). If in doubt, go low, and if you aren't
getting CPU saturation under high load, tune them up.
It's usefull to do 30 seconds of googling to find Suns actual statement
prior to posting and demostrating that 'AFAIK' is pretty lame, because you
didn't bother to take the time to actualy find out.
Alex.
On 6/20/06, Mladen Adamovic <ad...@blic.net> wrote:
>
> Leon Rosenberg wrote:
> >> Isn't Tomcat and JVM still single threaded?
> >> Single thread = single processor usage
> > I don't think it was ever singlethreaded. And if it were, what would
> > the Connector setting
> > in the server.xml mean?
> > <Connector port="8580" maxHttpHeaderSize="8192"
> > maxThreads="750" minSpareThreads="25" maxSpareThreads="75"
> >
> Max number of Java thread, IMHO.
> Java thread is not the same as operating system thread.
> In fact, JVM used to be single threaded on Linux and Windows and I'm not
> quite sure has it changed recently.
> So, you might have 800 Java threads but it is still one thread on
> operating system.
> When you run "ps aux | grep java" you always see one operating system
> thread IMHO.
> It means you don't exploit 4 processors if you have 4.
> To exploit 4 processors you have to setup 4 JVM (4 tomcat instances) to
> do round robin.
> As long as you have 1 JVM active you don't exploit thread level
> parallelism in operating system.
>
> AFAIK
>
> --
> Mladen Adamovic
> http://www.online-utility.org http://www.shortopedia.com
> http://www.froola.com http://www.gift-idea4u.com
>
>
>
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>
Re: Tomcat's scalability
Posted by Darryl Miles <da...@netbauds.net>.
Mladen Adamovic wrote:
> Max number of Java thread, IMHO.
> Java thread is not the same as operating system thread.
> In fact, JVM used to be single threaded on Linux and Windows and I'm not
> quite sure has it changed recently.
> So, you might have 800 Java threads but it is still one thread on
> operating system.
I'm sure green threads which is a M:N threads policy have been gone a
long while. Its not even included as a fallback threading model with
current JVMs from SUN. Maybe you are not working from a modern Linux or
Windows distribution or modern JVM ?
> When you run "ps aux | grep java" you always see one operating system
> thread IMHO.
ps -La ??
Try "ps uaxm | less" each of the "-" lines under the process is a thread
relating to that process.
Check out the "m,M,-T,-L" options and the man page, or just "ps -?"
Pick the leader and take a look in /proc/<PID>/task/ for the threads
under that process.
> It means you don't exploit 4 processors if you have 4.
> To exploit 4 processors you have to setup 4 JVM (4 tomcat instances) to
> do round robin.
> As long as you have 1 JVM active you don't exploit thread level
> parallelism in operating system.
Certainly j2sdk1.4.2_12 and jdk1.5.0_07 from SUN both use NTPL on Linux
which is 1:1. I would think WIN32 already has good threading support.
The current threading implementation in the last couple of years on
Linux is NPTL. Google is your friend.
Darryl
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Re: Tomcat's scalability
Posted by Mladen Adamovic <ad...@blic.net>.
Leon Rosenberg wrote:
>> Isn't Tomcat and JVM still single threaded?
>> Single thread = single processor usage
> I don't think it was ever singlethreaded. And if it were, what would
> the Connector setting
> in the server.xml mean?
> <Connector port="8580" maxHttpHeaderSize="8192"
> maxThreads="750" minSpareThreads="25" maxSpareThreads="75"
>
Max number of Java thread, IMHO.
Java thread is not the same as operating system thread.
In fact, JVM used to be single threaded on Linux and Windows and I'm not
quite sure has it changed recently.
So, you might have 800 Java threads but it is still one thread on
operating system.
When you run "ps aux | grep java" you always see one operating system
thread IMHO.
It means you don't exploit 4 processors if you have 4.
To exploit 4 processors you have to setup 4 JVM (4 tomcat instances) to
do round robin.
As long as you have 1 JVM active you don't exploit thread level
parallelism in operating system.
AFAIK
--
Mladen Adamovic
http://www.online-utility.org http://www.shortopedia.com
http://www.froola.com http://www.gift-idea4u.com
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Re: Tomcat's scalability
Posted by Leon Rosenberg <ro...@googlemail.com>.
On 6/19/06, Mladen Adamovic <ad...@blic.net> wrote:
> Leon Rosenberg wrote:
> >> Teoreticly, your servers should be faster if you configure 4 Tomcat
> >> instances (4 JVMs) to do round robin.
> >> You should be able to improve performances almost 4x.
> >>
> > could you explain why??
> Isn't Tomcat and JVM still single threaded?
> Single thread = single processor usage
I don't think it was ever singlethreaded. And if it were, what would
the Connector setting
in the server.xml mean?
<Connector port="8580" maxHttpHeaderSize="8192"
maxThreads="750" minSpareThreads="25" maxSpareThreads="75"
Leon
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Re: Tomcat's scalability
Posted by Mladen Adamovic <ad...@blic.net>.
Leon Rosenberg wrote:
>> Teoreticly, your servers should be faster if you configure 4 Tomcat
>> instances (4 JVMs) to do round robin.
>> You should be able to improve performances almost 4x.
>>
> could you explain why??
Isn't Tomcat and JVM still single threaded?
Single thread = single processor usage
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Re: Tomcat's scalability
Posted by Leon Rosenberg <ro...@googlemail.com>.
On 6/19/06, Mladen Adamovic <ad...@blic.net> wrote:
> Do top on the servers to be sure is problem in Tomcat or not.
>
> Teoreticly, your servers should be faster if you configure 4 Tomcat
> instances (4 JVMs) to do round robin.
> You should be able to improve performances almost 4x.
>
could you explain why??
leon
>
> Biernatowski Bartosz J wrote:
> > Hello,
> > I was hoping somebody on the list might point me in the right direction...
> >
> > I am trying to scale up Tomcat based web application currently supporting
> > ~100 users to 350 users.
> >
> > It seems that I have enough hardware: 2 load balanced servers x 4 CPUs each
> > with 4 GB of RAM which is underutilized for most of the time even though
> > application performance slows dramatically at peak times.
> >
> > I was advised to install multiple JVMs in order to improve Tomcat's
> > performance. Another option I considered was to install 2 instances
> > of Tomcat on each server to see whether it would handle increased load.
> >
> > Would anybody know what kind of performance improvement would multiple
> > JVM/Tomcat installations provide? Are there any benchmarks available?
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Mladen Adamovic
> http://www.online-utility.org http://www.shortopedia.com
> http://www.froola.com http://www.gift-idea4u.com
>
>
>
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Re: Tomcat's scalability
Posted by Mladen Adamovic <ad...@blic.net>.
Do top on the servers to be sure is problem in Tomcat or not.
Teoreticly, your servers should be faster if you configure 4 Tomcat
instances (4 JVMs) to do round robin.
You should be able to improve performances almost 4x.
Biernatowski Bartosz J wrote:
> Hello,
> I was hoping somebody on the list might point me in the right direction...
>
> I am trying to scale up Tomcat based web application currently supporting
> ~100 users to 350 users.
>
> It seems that I have enough hardware: 2 load balanced servers x 4 CPUs each
> with 4 GB of RAM which is underutilized for most of the time even though
> application performance slows dramatically at peak times.
>
> I was advised to install multiple JVMs in order to improve Tomcat's
> performance. Another option I considered was to install 2 instances
> of Tomcat on each server to see whether it would handle increased load.
>
> Would anybody know what kind of performance improvement would multiple
> JVM/Tomcat installations provide? Are there any benchmarks available?
>
>
>
--
Mladen Adamovic
http://www.online-utility.org http://www.shortopedia.com
http://www.froola.com http://www.gift-idea4u.com
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Re: Tomcat's scalability
Posted by Leon Rosenberg <ro...@googlemail.com>.
Almost forgot,
as for your question about multiple jvms with multiple tomcat instances:
we tried to scale tomcat instances on the same machine and it made no
difference.
leon
On 6/19/06, Biernatowski Bartosz J <Ba...@rxsol.com> wrote:
> Hello,
> I was hoping somebody on the list might point me in the right direction...
>
> I am trying to scale up Tomcat based web application currently supporting
> ~100 users to 350 users.
>
> It seems that I have enough hardware: 2 load balanced servers x 4 CPUs each
> with 4 GB of RAM which is underutilized for most of the time even though
> application performance slows dramatically at peak times.
>
> I was advised to install multiple JVMs in order to improve Tomcat's
> performance. Another option I considered was to install 2 instances
> of Tomcat on each server to see whether it would handle increased load.
>
> Would anybody know what kind of performance improvement would multiple
> JVM/Tomcat installations provide? Are there any benchmarks available?
>
> Thank you for any help!
> BJ
>
> BJ Biernatowski
> Application Developer
>
> This e-mail, including attachments, may include confidential and/or proprietary information, and may be used only by the person or entity to which it is addressed. If the reader of this e-mail is not the intended recipient or his or her authorized agent, the reader is hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail, including its contents and attachments, is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by a "reply to sender only" message and delete this e-mail immediately and destroy all electronic and hard copies of the communication, including attachments.
>
>
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