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Posted to dev@struts.apache.org by Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org> on 2002/12/13 14:20:38 UTC
Re: Why are people are up on Struts
12/12/2002 5:29:23 AM, Joseph Ottinger <jo...@enigmastation.com>
wrote:
>On Wed, 11 Dec 2002, Ted Husted wrote:
>> Given the large community behind Struts, we do have our share
>> of zealots. And, I agree that people who believe Struts is
>> "42" are not being realistic.
>I think it goes back to a lot of people - including myself - who
>think that zealots of any stripe are retarded, and people who
>don't know any better get reminded - IRC-fashion - that there are
>other alternatives.
I think Struts may attract more than it share of zealots simply
because Craig is a friendly guy and makes people feel welcome. I
originally looked harder at Struts than other products just
because I enjoyed Craig's demeanor on the list. And, like many
others, I stuck around because people were helpful and made Struts
easier to use. When my turn came, I helped others along. The cycle
continues. People Craig and I have helped are now helping others.
(Good thing, since both of us seem swamped lately!)
This is really the essence of "Apache marketing". We do put
community before technology. Struts isn't popular because of the
Apache name or because of economic engineering by an evil empire.
It's popular because we do things the Apache Way and put people
first.
Of course, people outside the community can't see that, and so
wonder why Struts is the most popular framework when it is
arguably not the most powerful or easiest to grasp.
It's popular, because, gosh, people ~like~ us =:0)
-Ted.
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Re: Why are people are up on Struts
Posted by Eddie Bush <ek...@swbell.net>.
When I fire up "vi", it calls itself vim, so ... yes and no. I use it
lots of times actually (for super-simple in/out type stuff) - but I
haven't really attempted to learn more about it than I already know.
micael wrote:
> The fact that you have vi does not mean you don't have vim, Eddy. Did
> you try vim?
>
> At 01:48 PM 12/14/2002 -0600, you wrote:
>
>> micael wrote:
>>
>>> Anyone who calls vim "vi" is simply not in a position to judge it.
>>> Anyway, I do understand the initial ease of a GUI. I like the speed
>>> you get after spending a half-hour to an hour learning something
>>> like vim. I hate moving a mouse around and would rather do it with
>>> my fingers that are already on the keyboard.
>>>
>>> Micael
>>
>>
>> The executable on my system is still called "vi" :-) ... so I feel
>> I'm justified in calling it "vi" ;-O I too see a place for the IDEs
>> - powering a plugin to enable UML-ing things is one feature that I'm
>> finding attractive. I need to get back to trying Eclipse soon -- and
>> that oomoogoo plugin for UML (no that's not the exact name - the one
>> at elcipseuml.org). Plus ... refactorings etc - there are a few
>> reasons to like an IDE - I don't view straight coding as one of them
>> though ;-O
>>
>> --
>> Eddie Bush
>
--
Eddie Bush
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Re: Why are people are up on Struts
Posted by micael <ca...@harbornet.com>.
The fact that you have vi does not mean you don't have vim, Eddy. Did you
try vim?
At 01:48 PM 12/14/2002 -0600, you wrote:
>micael wrote:
>
>>Anyone who calls vim "vi" is simply not in a position to judge it.
>>Anyway, I do understand the initial ease of a GUI. I like the speed you
>>get after spending a half-hour to an hour learning something like vim. I
>>hate moving a mouse around and would rather do it with my fingers that
>>are already on the keyboard.
>>
>>Micael
>
>The executable on my system is still called "vi" :-) ... so I feel I'm
>justified in calling it "vi" ;-O I too see a place for the IDEs -
>powering a plugin to enable UML-ing things is one feature that I'm finding
>attractive. I need to get back to trying Eclipse soon -- and that
>oomoogoo plugin for UML (no that's not the exact name - the one at
>elcipseuml.org). Plus ... refactorings etc - there are a few reasons to
>like an IDE - I don't view straight coding as one of them though ;-O
>
>--
>Eddie Bush
>
>
>
>
>--
>To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>
Micael
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Re: Why are people are up on Struts
Posted by Eddie Bush <ek...@swbell.net>.
micael wrote:
> Anyone who calls vim "vi" is simply not in a position to judge it.
> Anyway, I do understand the initial ease of a GUI. I like the speed
> you get after spending a half-hour to an hour learning something like
> vim. I hate moving a mouse around and would rather do it with my
> fingers that are already on the keyboard.
>
> Micael
The executable on my system is still called "vi" :-) ... so I feel I'm
justified in calling it "vi" ;-O I too see a place for the IDEs -
powering a plugin to enable UML-ing things is one feature that I'm
finding attractive. I need to get back to trying Eclipse soon -- and
that oomoogoo plugin for UML (no that's not the exact name - the one at
elcipseuml.org). Plus ... refactorings etc - there are a few reasons to
like an IDE - I don't view straight coding as one of them though ;-O
--
Eddie Bush
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RE: Why are people are up on Struts
Posted by micael <ca...@harbornet.com>.
Anyone who calls vim "vi" is simply not in a position to judge it. Anyway,
I do understand the initial ease of a GUI. I like the speed you get after
spending a half-hour to an hour learning something like vim. I hate moving
a mouse around and would rather do it with my fingers that are already on
the keyboard.
Micael
At 06:27 PM 12/14/2002 +0800, you wrote:
><snip>
>would you stick around if the first response you get when
>approaching a new community is titled "idiot.html"?
> http://jakarta.apache.org/site/idiot.html
></snip>
>
>Rofl. I like it. ;->
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: James Mitchell [mailto:jmitchell@apache.org]
>Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2002 00:08
>To: Struts Developers List
>Subject: Re: Why are people are up on Struts
>
>
>On Fri, 2002-12-13 at 08:20, Ted Husted wrote:
> > 12/12/2002 5:29:23 AM, Joseph Ottinger <jo...@enigmastation.com>
> > wrote:
> > >On Wed, 11 Dec 2002, Ted Husted wrote:
> > >> Given the large community behind Struts, we do have our share
> > >> of zealots. And, I agree that people who believe Struts is
> > >> "42" are not being realistic.
> >
> > >I think it goes back to a lot of people - including myself - who
> > >think that zealots of any stripe are retarded, and people who
> > >don't know any better get reminded - IRC-fashion - that there are
> > >other alternatives.
> >
> > I think Struts may attract more than it share of zealots simply
> > because Craig is a friendly guy and makes people feel welcome. I
> > originally looked harder at Struts than other products just
> > because I enjoyed Craig's demeanor on the list. And, like many
> > others, I stuck around because people were helpful and made Struts
> > easier to use. When my turn came, I helped others along. The cycle
> > continues. People Craig and I have helped are now helping others.
> > (Good thing, since both of us seem swamped lately!)
> >
> > This is really the essence of "Apache marketing". We do put
> > community before technology. Struts isn't popular because of the
> > Apache name or because of economic engineering by an evil empire.
> > It's popular because we do things the Apache Way and put people
> > first.
> >
> > Of course, people outside the community can't see that, and so
> > wonder why Struts is the most popular framework when it is
> > arguably not the most powerful or easiest to grasp.
> >
> > It's popular, because, gosh, people ~like~ us =:0)
> >
> > -Ted.
> >
> >
>
>Something else that can make a difference is "First Impressions". I
>mean, would you stick around if the first response you get when
>approaching a new community is titled "idiot.html"?
>
> http://jakarta.apache.org/site/idiot.html
>
>Whether you meant to send to the wrong list or not, first impressions
>are lasting impressions....hey isn't that a common phrase or something?
>
>I've witnessed several flame wars over that link.
>
>Well, at least we don't promote ill feelings here, however VI still
>sucks!!! ;P
>
>
>--
>James Mitchell
>Software Engineer / Struts Evangelist
>http://www.open-tool.org/
>
>
>--
>To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>
>
>--
>To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
Micael
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information belonging to the sender which may be confidential and legally
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individual or entity to whom this electronic mail transmission was sent as
indicated above. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure,
copying, distribution, or action taken in reliance on the contents of the
information contained in this transmission is strictly prohibited. If you
have received this transmission in error, please delete the message. Thank
you
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RE: Why are people are up on Struts
Posted by Andrew Hill <an...@gridnode.com>.
<snip>
would you stick around if the first response you get when
approaching a new community is titled "idiot.html"?
http://jakarta.apache.org/site/idiot.html
</snip>
Rofl. I like it. ;->
-----Original Message-----
From: James Mitchell [mailto:jmitchell@apache.org]
Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2002 00:08
To: Struts Developers List
Subject: Re: Why are people are up on Struts
On Fri, 2002-12-13 at 08:20, Ted Husted wrote:
> 12/12/2002 5:29:23 AM, Joseph Ottinger <jo...@enigmastation.com>
> wrote:
> >On Wed, 11 Dec 2002, Ted Husted wrote:
> >> Given the large community behind Struts, we do have our share
> >> of zealots. And, I agree that people who believe Struts is
> >> "42" are not being realistic.
>
> >I think it goes back to a lot of people - including myself - who
> >think that zealots of any stripe are retarded, and people who
> >don't know any better get reminded - IRC-fashion - that there are
> >other alternatives.
>
> I think Struts may attract more than it share of zealots simply
> because Craig is a friendly guy and makes people feel welcome. I
> originally looked harder at Struts than other products just
> because I enjoyed Craig's demeanor on the list. And, like many
> others, I stuck around because people were helpful and made Struts
> easier to use. When my turn came, I helped others along. The cycle
> continues. People Craig and I have helped are now helping others.
> (Good thing, since both of us seem swamped lately!)
>
> This is really the essence of "Apache marketing". We do put
> community before technology. Struts isn't popular because of the
> Apache name or because of economic engineering by an evil empire.
> It's popular because we do things the Apache Way and put people
> first.
>
> Of course, people outside the community can't see that, and so
> wonder why Struts is the most popular framework when it is
> arguably not the most powerful or easiest to grasp.
>
> It's popular, because, gosh, people ~like~ us =:0)
>
> -Ted.
>
>
Something else that can make a difference is "First Impressions". I
mean, would you stick around if the first response you get when
approaching a new community is titled "idiot.html"?
http://jakarta.apache.org/site/idiot.html
Whether you meant to send to the wrong list or not, first impressions
are lasting impressions....hey isn't that a common phrase or something?
I've witnessed several flame wars over that link.
Well, at least we don't promote ill feelings here, however VI still
sucks!!! ;P
--
James Mitchell
Software Engineer / Struts Evangelist
http://www.open-tool.org/
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
--
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Re: Why are people are up on Struts
Posted by James Mitchell <jm...@apache.org>.
On Fri, 2002-12-13 at 08:20, Ted Husted wrote:
> 12/12/2002 5:29:23 AM, Joseph Ottinger <jo...@enigmastation.com>
> wrote:
> >On Wed, 11 Dec 2002, Ted Husted wrote:
> >> Given the large community behind Struts, we do have our share
> >> of zealots. And, I agree that people who believe Struts is
> >> "42" are not being realistic.
>
> >I think it goes back to a lot of people - including myself - who
> >think that zealots of any stripe are retarded, and people who
> >don't know any better get reminded - IRC-fashion - that there are
> >other alternatives.
>
> I think Struts may attract more than it share of zealots simply
> because Craig is a friendly guy and makes people feel welcome. I
> originally looked harder at Struts than other products just
> because I enjoyed Craig's demeanor on the list. And, like many
> others, I stuck around because people were helpful and made Struts
> easier to use. When my turn came, I helped others along. The cycle
> continues. People Craig and I have helped are now helping others.
> (Good thing, since both of us seem swamped lately!)
>
> This is really the essence of "Apache marketing". We do put
> community before technology. Struts isn't popular because of the
> Apache name or because of economic engineering by an evil empire.
> It's popular because we do things the Apache Way and put people
> first.
>
> Of course, people outside the community can't see that, and so
> wonder why Struts is the most popular framework when it is
> arguably not the most powerful or easiest to grasp.
>
> It's popular, because, gosh, people ~like~ us =:0)
>
> -Ted.
>
>
Something else that can make a difference is "First Impressions". I
mean, would you stick around if the first response you get when
approaching a new community is titled "idiot.html"?
http://jakarta.apache.org/site/idiot.html
Whether you meant to send to the wrong list or not, first impressions
are lasting impressions....hey isn't that a common phrase or something?
I've witnessed several flame wars over that link.
Well, at least we don't promote ill feelings here, however VI still
sucks!!! ;P
--
James Mitchell
Software Engineer / Struts Evangelist
http://www.open-tool.org/
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>