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Posted to general@jakarta.apache.org by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org> on 2002/05/01 23:35:02 UTC
[PROPOSAL] Centaven and Friends (was Re: You make the decision (was Re: Quick! convert all your projects to maven!))
********************
WHY KRYSALIS
********************
From: "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>
> I've no problem with that if Ken is given committer access, the
> community agrees and comes up with a plan to integrate the two and all.
> I just figured it made more sense to have a project specifically for it
> rather than a subproject of a subproject that has nothing to do with it
> in general.
This is why Centipede came up on Krysalis instead of Apache.
I followed the discussion we had here on if/how to accept projects at
Apache, and about why Jakarta is not Sourceforge.
Krysalis came up with the goal of pursuing Apache-style projects out of
Apache itself, till they mature to a level at which they can honestly
propose themselves on this list.
Personally, I have already tried to collaborate with Maven on the Alexandria
list, even only at the descriptor level, and unfortunately have miserably
failed (http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=101713408000002&r=1&w=2)
This is why Maven and Centipede have different descriptors.
BTW, the Centipede module.xml descriptor is an enhanced Gump descriptor, and
works OOTB with Gump itself.
**********************
CENTAVEN?
**********************
> But there has to be a sincere effort not just a "squash
> centipede by saying yes to the proposal then -1ing the implemnetation".
> I just want the "to".
I just want a build system that gives you the possibilities of Centipede,
which Maven still lacks.
That said, I don't care where the project resides. My decision of putting it
on Krysalis was taken to abide as much as possible to Jakarta standards, but
it seems that stretching them to ones needs is more effective.
> Personally I'd like to see the combined Centaven moved to a
> jakarta.org/centaven level. If this effort is truely undertaken, POI
> will upgrade to a combined centaven. (I don't care what its named its
> the senitment).. . Then who wins? Well everyone. We get what we need.
I'm +1000 for this, as I have always been.
So, let me throw the stone.
-oOo-
Here is what I think is in the best intrest of ALL on Jakarta, let's see
what the Jakarta Community thinks.
***************************
PROPOSALS
***************************
This multi-proposal is an effort to unite forces on the build-system front
and to give a sense to all project build/documentation/site projects on
xml.apache and Jakarta.
JAKARTA-GUMP
***********************
Alexandria started as a multi-project documentation system, and is now dead.
Gump started there by using the Alexandria descriptors but has become a
conyinuous-integration tool.
I propose that it finally becomes a top-level Jakarta project, as it is now
de-facto.
The Vindico proposal will migrate to that project as well and will have the
possibility to challenge the current de-facto Gump codebase with a vote as
permitted by the Jakarta rules.
JAKARTA-ALEXANDRIA
*******************************
Alexandria still has an important mission, that of creating beautiful
cross-referenced Java project documentation.
Maven has taken part of the code-base AFAIK and is using it.
Centipede is producing source-code cross reference with javasrc and
umldoclet, and is working on creating SVG UML package charts.
Alexandria can continue with its mission.
Maven can port-back the code it uses.
Javasrc developer Bill Smith has decided to DONATE the code to the
Alexandria project and continue coding there
(http://sourceforge.net/forum/message.php?msg_id=1552505).
Centipede will give all the code it has that generates documentation.
CENTAVEN
*******************
Maven and Centipede have similar goals but different approaches.
I would like to see them united, and have a single project description
system.
We have the need, we have the community, we have the code.
Centipede will never be able to make it into Maven and viceversa, because
the approaches are very different.
I think that these can be overcome, and that we can devide a comon system
that solves *all* our _needs_.
SUMMARY
*******************
Here is my +1+1+1 for all three proposals.
This is the best I can do, and what I think is in the best interest for
Apache.
What do you think?
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Centaven and Friends blah blah blah
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
>
> In mavens case: http://jakarta.apache.org/turbine/maven/tasks.html short
> term and http://jakarta.apache.org/turbine/maven/musings.html long term.
> I haven't seen anything similar for centipede but I hope documentation
> is at the top of that list because... I haven't seen anything similar.
> Looking forward to seeing the UML generation, happy to steal that if it
> turns out well.
>
http://jakarta.apache.org/poi/javadocs/org/apache/poi/hssf/record/AreaRecord.html
click up on the upper right hand corner where it says "UML" and you see
the class diagram.
The colors are ugly....but *shrug* My wife picks out my clothes for me
and tells me which ones match so who am I to criticize ;-)
> -- jt
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
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>
--
http://www.superlinksoftware.com
http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - port of Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound
Document
format to java
http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html
- fix java generics!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
vote.
-Ambassador Kosh
--
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Centaven and Friends blah blah blah
Posted by James Taylor <jt...@4lane.com>.
> What do you think?
I think that the sanest viewpoint that has been expressed in this thread
is that both projects are young and need to incubate. Sure, one project
definition format will be nice to have across apache someday, but were
still working out the kinks and it's not obvious (well, except to us
developers =) which is the better way to go.
So, PROPOSAL, if you will... let's stop talking about this and get back
to work and then readdress the issue when the projects are more mature.
Both certainly need more effort.
In mavens case: http://jakarta.apache.org/turbine/maven/tasks.html short
term and http://jakarta.apache.org/turbine/maven/musings.html long term.
I haven't seen anything similar for centipede but I hope documentation
is at the top of that list because... I haven't seen anything similar.
Looking forward to seeing the UML generation, happy to steal that if it
turns out well.
-- jt
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Centaven and Friends (was Re: You make the decision
(was Re: Quick! convert all your projects to maven!))
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
+1 to costin's sentiment! I completely agree with everything he said.
On Wed, 2002-05-01 at 18:15, costinm@covalent.net wrote:
> +1
>
> I would go even further and propose a top level project that will
> host all project-management tools, including Gump.
>
> While gump doesn't have a very big community of developers ( I wish
> I had more time), it is an essential tool for jakarta, and
> I think 'it is the real thing'.
>
> There are many solutions for the same problem - and it seems
> Centipede is based on Cocoon and XSLT, which would make it
> my preference ( if I would need such a tool ).
> I know other people dislike xslt - and I think it's fair to
> have a choice.
>
> Having a single repository and top level project, with possible
> common components ( while preserving the important choices
> of each project ) is a good solution, and until this happen
> I don't consider either of the 2 projects 'mature' enough.
>
> Costin
>
> On Wed, 1 May 2002, Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
>
> > ********************
> > WHY KRYSALIS
> > ********************
> >
> > From: "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>
> >
> > > I've no problem with that if Ken is given committer access, the
> > > community agrees and comes up with a plan to integrate the two and all.
> > > I just figured it made more sense to have a project specifically for it
> > > rather than a subproject of a subproject that has nothing to do with it
> > > in general.
> >
> > This is why Centipede came up on Krysalis instead of Apache.
> >
> > I followed the discussion we had here on if/how to accept projects at
> > Apache, and about why Jakarta is not Sourceforge.
> > Krysalis came up with the goal of pursuing Apache-style projects out of
> > Apache itself, till they mature to a level at which they can honestly
> > propose themselves on this list.
> >
> > Personally, I have already tried to collaborate with Maven on the Alexandria
> > list, even only at the descriptor level, and unfortunately have miserably
> > failed (http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=101713408000002&r=1&w=2)
> >
> > This is why Maven and Centipede have different descriptors.
> >
> > BTW, the Centipede module.xml descriptor is an enhanced Gump descriptor, and
> > works OOTB with Gump itself.
> >
> > **********************
> > CENTAVEN?
> > **********************
> >
> > > But there has to be a sincere effort not just a "squash
> > > centipede by saying yes to the proposal then -1ing the implemnetation".
> > > I just want the "to".
> >
> > I just want a build system that gives you the possibilities of Centipede,
> > which Maven still lacks.
> >
> > That said, I don't care where the project resides. My decision of putting it
> > on Krysalis was taken to abide as much as possible to Jakarta standards, but
> > it seems that stretching them to ones needs is more effective.
> >
> > > Personally I'd like to see the combined Centaven moved to a
> > > jakarta.org/centaven level. If this effort is truely undertaken, POI
> > > will upgrade to a combined centaven. (I don't care what its named its
> > > the senitment).. . Then who wins? Well everyone. We get what we need.
> >
> > I'm +1000 for this, as I have always been.
> >
> > So, let me throw the stone.
> >
> >
> > -oOo-
> >
> >
> > Here is what I think is in the best intrest of ALL on Jakarta, let's see
> > what the Jakarta Community thinks.
> >
> > ***************************
> > PROPOSALS
> > ***************************
> > This multi-proposal is an effort to unite forces on the build-system front
> > and to give a sense to all project build/documentation/site projects on
> > xml.apache and Jakarta.
> >
> >
> > JAKARTA-GUMP
> > ***********************
> > Alexandria started as a multi-project documentation system, and is now dead.
> > Gump started there by using the Alexandria descriptors but has become a
> > conyinuous-integration tool.
> >
> > I propose that it finally becomes a top-level Jakarta project, as it is now
> > de-facto.
> >
> > The Vindico proposal will migrate to that project as well and will have the
> > possibility to challenge the current de-facto Gump codebase with a vote as
> > permitted by the Jakarta rules.
> >
> >
> > JAKARTA-ALEXANDRIA
> > *******************************
> > Alexandria still has an important mission, that of creating beautiful
> > cross-referenced Java project documentation.
> > Maven has taken part of the code-base AFAIK and is using it.
> > Centipede is producing source-code cross reference with javasrc and
> > umldoclet, and is working on creating SVG UML package charts.
> >
> > Alexandria can continue with its mission.
> > Maven can port-back the code it uses.
> > Javasrc developer Bill Smith has decided to DONATE the code to the
> > Alexandria project and continue coding there
> > (http://sourceforge.net/forum/message.php?msg_id=1552505).
> > Centipede will give all the code it has that generates documentation.
> >
> > CENTAVEN
> > *******************
> > Maven and Centipede have similar goals but different approaches.
> >
> > I would like to see them united, and have a single project description
> > system.
> >
> > We have the need, we have the community, we have the code.
> >
> > Centipede will never be able to make it into Maven and viceversa, because
> > the approaches are very different.
> >
> > I think that these can be overcome, and that we can devide a comon system
> > that solves *all* our _needs_.
> >
> >
> > SUMMARY
> > *******************
> > Here is my +1+1+1 for all three proposals.
> >
> > This is the best I can do, and what I think is in the best interest for
> > Apache.
> >
> > What do you think?
> >
> > --
> > Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
> > - verba volant, scripta manent -
> > (discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>
--
http://www.superlinksoftware.com
http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - port of Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound
Document
format to java
http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html
- fix java generics!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
vote.
-Ambassador Kosh
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
Re: [PROPOSAL] Centaven and Friends (was Re: You make the decision
(was Re: Quick! convert all your projects to maven!))
Posted by Leo Simons <le...@apache.org>.
+1
I'm not a big fan of me-too posts, but this is one, bigtime. Apache as a
whole and I think all of the subprojects individually have a real need
for something like this.
- Leo
On Thu, 2002-05-02 at 00:15, costinm@covalent.net wrote:
> +1
>
> I would go even further and propose a top level project that will
> host all project-management tools, including Gump.
<snip>
> > ***************************
> > PROPOSALS
> > ***************************
> > This multi-proposal is an effort to unite forces on the build-system front
> > and to give a sense to all project build/documentation/site projects on
> > xml.apache and Jakarta.
> >
> >
> > JAKARTA-GUMP
> > ***********************
> > Alexandria started as a multi-project documentation system, and is now dead.
> > Gump started there by using the Alexandria descriptors but has become a
> > conyinuous-integration tool.
> >
> > I propose that it finally becomes a top-level Jakarta project, as it is now
> > de-facto.
> >
> > The Vindico proposal will migrate to that project as well and will have the
> > possibility to challenge the current de-facto Gump codebase with a vote as
> > permitted by the Jakarta rules.
> >
> >
> > JAKARTA-ALEXANDRIA
> > *******************************
> > Alexandria still has an important mission, that of creating beautiful
> > cross-referenced Java project documentation.
> > Maven has taken part of the code-base AFAIK and is using it.
> > Centipede is producing source-code cross reference with javasrc and
> > umldoclet, and is working on creating SVG UML package charts.
> >
> > Alexandria can continue with its mission.
> > Maven can port-back the code it uses.
> > Javasrc developer Bill Smith has decided to DONATE the code to the
> > Alexandria project and continue coding there
> > (http://sourceforge.net/forum/message.php?msg_id=1552505).
> > Centipede will give all the code it has that generates documentation.
> >
> > CENTAVEN
> > *******************
> > Maven and Centipede have similar goals but different approaches.
> >
> > I would like to see them united, and have a single project description
> > system.
> >
> > We have the need, we have the community, we have the code.
> >
> > Centipede will never be able to make it into Maven and viceversa, because
> > the approaches are very different.
> >
> > I think that these can be overcome, and that we can devide a comon system
> > that solves *all* our _needs_.
> >
> >
> > SUMMARY
> > *******************
> > Here is my +1+1+1 for all three proposals.
> >
> > This is the best I can do, and what I think is in the best interest for
> > Apache.
> >
> > What do you think?
> >
> > --
> > Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
> > - verba volant, scripta manent -
> > (discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>
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Re: [Leonidas] an invitation (was RE: [PROPOSAL] Centaven and Friends
(was Re: You make the decision (was Re: Quick! convert all your projects
to maven!)))
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
>
>
>
>(it makes more sense to me then trying to combine jakarta and xml
>mailinglists, also on this social level some sound functional partitioning
>is a good idea, people that want to subscribe to all 'generals' can easily
>do so, perhaps facilitating that into one automated subscription-mail to all
>groups makes sense but if you're really interested in the topics you
>shouldn't be that lasy)
>
I agree.
>
>
>. Can we find a name for this that does not try to combine 'centipede' nor
>'maven' ?
>[admitting to some forrest/gump (as the movie, not the projects :-)) bias I
>propose (at least as a working name): 'Leonidas', the brand on the box of
>belgian chocolates, since I honnestly don't know what I'm going to get :-)]
>
I was only aiming for the idea. One read that and immediately knew what
I was getting at. Centaven sounds like some sort of ointment. ;-)
(itch cream maybe)
>
>damn, so much work already, we could use the separate mailing list :-)
>more detailed questions welcome as we go allong...
>
>regards, and feel free...
>-marc=
>
>>There are many solutions for the same problem - and it seems
>>Centipede is based on Cocoon and XSLT, which would make it
>>my preference ( if I would need such a tool ).
>>I know other people dislike xslt - and I think it's fair to
>>have a choice.
>>
>
>
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>
>
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[Leonidas] an invitation (was RE: [PROPOSAL] Centaven and Friends (was Re: You make the decision (was Re: Quick! convert all your projects to maven!)))
Posted by Marc Portier <mp...@outerthought.org>.
Hi,
Carefully trying to step in at a moment where there again was an attempt to
being usefull :-)
(Ken's [PROPOSAL] seemed to me too honest and willing to hijack it into more
flamewars)
[doing the awfull crosspost reflecting the nature of this message-body]
> From: costinm@covalent.net [mailto:costinm@covalent.net]
>
> +1
>
> I would go even further and propose a top level project that will
> host all project-management tools, including Gump.
>
with 'top level' you mean next to jakarta.apache and xml.apache projects?
grouping all dev-facilitating-community-infrastructure-project-management
related stuff into a common place for the others to start from sounds like a
good idea? (IMO)
Maybe this could give us all some neutral grounds AND an obvious central
forum (lighthouse function) to work on and discuss the features in such
system(s). Some of the original forest-dev kick off mailings had wishlists
talking about this kind of stuff, only forrest doesn't try to be more then
create a browser consumable cockpit view on all aspects of such an
infrastructure.
Finally: next to having possible competing alternatives (which indeed will
solve itself in some survival-of-the-fittest mechanism anyway) one of the
bigger drawbacks I'm seeing in the current situation of historicaly randomly
self-project-oriented itch-scratching in the dev-infrastructure part:
It leads to bad functional partitioning! The best thing I like about
general/natural OSS design is that they tend to focus on 1. doing a small
and essential part of the job very well and 2. putting up clear interfaces
to hook into the others (pretty much like good OO design should focus on a
sound split up of responsibility and collaboration, the typical example is
the unix pipe-commandline which rules over the one size fits all executable
that takes a million options, swithces and command line arguments (well, in
unix they combine both of course :-() )
In the current situation, which I would call: "scratching 'the
my-infrastructure and my-project management'-itch" tends to glob anything
the particular project group sees as out-of-scope-but-essential-for-progress
into one subproject... (This is also why this discussion goes on and on if
you ask me: we have difficulty to compare maven and centipede because they
take up more then one aspect in the show and have both areas in which they
do and don't overlap... and if you ask me some of the features both maven
and centipede are raving about should be refactored out as different
co-operating and plugable subprojects of a bigger new dev-infrastructure
strategy)
And from this angle I dislike the expressed idea of waiting for more
estalished versions of the currently competing (and ever funcitonally
growing in an attempt to 'win') subsusbsub- and/or foreign- projects.
In one line: The setup of a root level group could facilitate the
discussions on sound functional partitioning.
(it makes more sense to me then trying to combine jakarta and xml
mailinglists, also on this social level some sound functional partitioning
is a good idea, people that want to subscribe to all 'generals' can easily
do so, perhaps facilitating that into one automated subscription-mail to all
groups makes sense but if you're really interested in the topics you
shouldn't be that lasy)
I think Steven made a nice overview of what is already here and there in
that arena:
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=xml-apache-general&m=102028272723903&w=2
(maven, centipede, gump, forest, alexandria,...)
probably 'ant' could be considered to move in as well. (having it's
comparable grown out of tomcat history sure makes it a good candidate.)
> While gump doesn't have a very big community of developers ( I wish
> I had more time), it is an essential tool for jakarta, and
> I think 'it is the real thing'.
it should be an essential tool for xml.apache as well, as would go for all
other projects in this new arena.
and it would kinda offer a mechanism for offering to the world the
best-practice-filled infrastructure tools these communities were able to
create cause of their high volume and agility.
it will never free us comppletely from itch scratching subprojects, but who
would care then?
this being the start of at least a no-flame subthread :-)
maybe leaving us with some topic oriented questions can invite anyone into
constructive participation:
. Which are the different aspects of an elaborated development-community?
[possibly grouped around the main activities: communication, documentation,
participation, status reporting]
. Into which features would you translate these aspects?
[both server side as well as view-side as maybe IDE integration dreams]
. Which of these do we have available in which subprojects?
. What is the good or bad experience with it, maybe from commercial products
as well?
. Can we refactor those out and define interfaces between them?
[probably loads of XML]
. Can we find a name for this that does not try to combine 'centipede' nor
'maven' ?
[admitting to some forrest/gump (as the movie, not the projects :-)) bias I
propose (at least as a working name): 'Leonidas', the brand on the box of
belgian chocolates, since I honnestly don't know what I'm going to get :-)]
damn, so much work already, we could use the separate mailing list :-)
more detailed questions welcome as we go allong...
regards, and feel free...
-marc=
>
> There are many solutions for the same problem - and it seems
> Centipede is based on Cocoon and XSLT, which would make it
> my preference ( if I would need such a tool ).
> I know other people dislike xslt - and I think it's fair to
> have a choice.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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[Leonidas] an invitation (was RE: [PROPOSAL] Centaven and Friends (was Re: You make the decision (was Re: Quick! convert all your projects to maven!)))
Posted by Marc Portier <mp...@outerthought.org>.
Hi,
Carefully trying to step in at a moment where there again was an attempt to
being usefull :-)
(Ken's [PROPOSAL] seemed to me too honest and willing to hijack it into more
flamewars)
[doing the awfull crosspost reflecting the nature of this message-body]
> From: costinm@covalent.net [mailto:costinm@covalent.net]
>
> +1
>
> I would go even further and propose a top level project that will
> host all project-management tools, including Gump.
>
with 'top level' you mean next to jakarta.apache and xml.apache projects?
grouping all dev-facilitating-community-infrastructure-project-management
related stuff into a common place for the others to start from sounds like a
good idea? (IMO)
Maybe this could give us all some neutral grounds AND an obvious central
forum (lighthouse function) to work on and discuss the features in such
system(s). Some of the original forest-dev kick off mailings had wishlists
talking about this kind of stuff, only forrest doesn't try to be more then
create a browser consumable cockpit view on all aspects of such an
infrastructure.
Finally: next to having possible competing alternatives (which indeed will
solve itself in some survival-of-the-fittest mechanism anyway) one of the
bigger drawbacks I'm seeing in the current situation of historicaly randomly
self-project-oriented itch-scratching in the dev-infrastructure part:
It leads to bad functional partitioning! The best thing I like about
general/natural OSS design is that they tend to focus on 1. doing a small
and essential part of the job very well and 2. putting up clear interfaces
to hook into the others (pretty much like good OO design should focus on a
sound split up of responsibility and collaboration, the typical example is
the unix pipe-commandline which rules over the one size fits all executable
that takes a million options, swithces and command line arguments (well, in
unix they combine both of course :-() )
In the current situation, which I would call: "scratching 'the
my-infrastructure and my-project management'-itch" tends to glob anything
the particular project group sees as out-of-scope-but-essential-for-progress
into one subproject... (This is also why this discussion goes on and on if
you ask me: we have difficulty to compare maven and centipede because they
take up more then one aspect in the show and have both areas in which they
do and don't overlap... and if you ask me some of the features both maven
and centipede are raving about should be refactored out as different
co-operating and plugable subprojects of a bigger new dev-infrastructure
strategy)
And from this angle I dislike the expressed idea of waiting for more
estalished versions of the currently competing (and ever funcitonally
growing in an attempt to 'win') subsusbsub- and/or foreign- projects.
In one line: The setup of a root level group could facilitate the
discussions on sound functional partitioning.
(it makes more sense to me then trying to combine jakarta and xml
mailinglists, also on this social level some sound functional partitioning
is a good idea, people that want to subscribe to all 'generals' can easily
do so, perhaps facilitating that into one automated subscription-mail to all
groups makes sense but if you're really interested in the topics you
shouldn't be that lasy)
I think Steven made a nice overview of what is already here and there in
that arena:
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=xml-apache-general&m=102028272723903&w=2
(maven, centipede, gump, forest, alexandria,...)
probably 'ant' could be considered to move in as well. (having it's
comparable grown out of tomcat history sure makes it a good candidate.)
> While gump doesn't have a very big community of developers ( I wish
> I had more time), it is an essential tool for jakarta, and
> I think 'it is the real thing'.
it should be an essential tool for xml.apache as well, as would go for all
other projects in this new arena.
and it would kinda offer a mechanism for offering to the world the
best-practice-filled infrastructure tools these communities were able to
create cause of their high volume and agility.
it will never free us comppletely from itch scratching subprojects, but who
would care then?
this being the start of at least a no-flame subthread :-)
maybe leaving us with some topic oriented questions can invite anyone into
constructive participation:
. Which are the different aspects of an elaborated development-community?
[possibly grouped around the main activities: communication, documentation,
participation, status reporting]
. Into which features would you translate these aspects?
[both server side as well as view-side as maybe IDE integration dreams]
. Which of these do we have available in which subprojects?
. What is the good or bad experience with it, maybe from commercial products
as well?
. Can we refactor those out and define interfaces between them?
[probably loads of XML]
. Can we find a name for this that does not try to combine 'centipede' nor
'maven' ?
[admitting to some forrest/gump (as the movie, not the projects :-)) bias I
propose (at least as a working name): 'Leonidas', the brand on the box of
belgian chocolates, since I honnestly don't know what I'm going to get :-)]
damn, so much work already, we could use the separate mailing list :-)
more detailed questions welcome as we go allong...
regards, and feel free...
-marc=
>
> There are many solutions for the same problem - and it seems
> Centipede is based on Cocoon and XSLT, which would make it
> my preference ( if I would need such a tool ).
> I know other people dislike xslt - and I think it's fair to
> have a choice.
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Centaven and Friends (was Re: You make the decision
(was Re: Quick! convert all your projects to maven!))
Posted by co...@covalent.net.
+1
I would go even further and propose a top level project that will
host all project-management tools, including Gump.
While gump doesn't have a very big community of developers ( I wish
I had more time), it is an essential tool for jakarta, and
I think 'it is the real thing'.
There are many solutions for the same problem - and it seems
Centipede is based on Cocoon and XSLT, which would make it
my preference ( if I would need such a tool ).
I know other people dislike xslt - and I think it's fair to
have a choice.
Having a single repository and top level project, with possible
common components ( while preserving the important choices
of each project ) is a good solution, and until this happen
I don't consider either of the 2 projects 'mature' enough.
Costin
On Wed, 1 May 2002, Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
> ********************
> WHY KRYSALIS
> ********************
>
> From: "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>
>
> > I've no problem with that if Ken is given committer access, the
> > community agrees and comes up with a plan to integrate the two and all.
> > I just figured it made more sense to have a project specifically for it
> > rather than a subproject of a subproject that has nothing to do with it
> > in general.
>
> This is why Centipede came up on Krysalis instead of Apache.
>
> I followed the discussion we had here on if/how to accept projects at
> Apache, and about why Jakarta is not Sourceforge.
> Krysalis came up with the goal of pursuing Apache-style projects out of
> Apache itself, till they mature to a level at which they can honestly
> propose themselves on this list.
>
> Personally, I have already tried to collaborate with Maven on the Alexandria
> list, even only at the descriptor level, and unfortunately have miserably
> failed (http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=101713408000002&r=1&w=2)
>
> This is why Maven and Centipede have different descriptors.
>
> BTW, the Centipede module.xml descriptor is an enhanced Gump descriptor, and
> works OOTB with Gump itself.
>
> **********************
> CENTAVEN?
> **********************
>
> > But there has to be a sincere effort not just a "squash
> > centipede by saying yes to the proposal then -1ing the implemnetation".
> > I just want the "to".
>
> I just want a build system that gives you the possibilities of Centipede,
> which Maven still lacks.
>
> That said, I don't care where the project resides. My decision of putting it
> on Krysalis was taken to abide as much as possible to Jakarta standards, but
> it seems that stretching them to ones needs is more effective.
>
> > Personally I'd like to see the combined Centaven moved to a
> > jakarta.org/centaven level. If this effort is truely undertaken, POI
> > will upgrade to a combined centaven. (I don't care what its named its
> > the senitment).. . Then who wins? Well everyone. We get what we need.
>
> I'm +1000 for this, as I have always been.
>
> So, let me throw the stone.
>
>
> -oOo-
>
>
> Here is what I think is in the best intrest of ALL on Jakarta, let's see
> what the Jakarta Community thinks.
>
> ***************************
> PROPOSALS
> ***************************
> This multi-proposal is an effort to unite forces on the build-system front
> and to give a sense to all project build/documentation/site projects on
> xml.apache and Jakarta.
>
>
> JAKARTA-GUMP
> ***********************
> Alexandria started as a multi-project documentation system, and is now dead.
> Gump started there by using the Alexandria descriptors but has become a
> conyinuous-integration tool.
>
> I propose that it finally becomes a top-level Jakarta project, as it is now
> de-facto.
>
> The Vindico proposal will migrate to that project as well and will have the
> possibility to challenge the current de-facto Gump codebase with a vote as
> permitted by the Jakarta rules.
>
>
> JAKARTA-ALEXANDRIA
> *******************************
> Alexandria still has an important mission, that of creating beautiful
> cross-referenced Java project documentation.
> Maven has taken part of the code-base AFAIK and is using it.
> Centipede is producing source-code cross reference with javasrc and
> umldoclet, and is working on creating SVG UML package charts.
>
> Alexandria can continue with its mission.
> Maven can port-back the code it uses.
> Javasrc developer Bill Smith has decided to DONATE the code to the
> Alexandria project and continue coding there
> (http://sourceforge.net/forum/message.php?msg_id=1552505).
> Centipede will give all the code it has that generates documentation.
>
> CENTAVEN
> *******************
> Maven and Centipede have similar goals but different approaches.
>
> I would like to see them united, and have a single project description
> system.
>
> We have the need, we have the community, we have the code.
>
> Centipede will never be able to make it into Maven and viceversa, because
> the approaches are very different.
>
> I think that these can be overcome, and that we can devide a comon system
> that solves *all* our _needs_.
>
>
> SUMMARY
> *******************
> Here is my +1+1+1 for all three proposals.
>
> This is the best I can do, and what I think is in the best interest for
> Apache.
>
> What do you think?
>
> --
> Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
> - verba volant, scripta manent -
> (discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
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>
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