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Posted to dev@openoffice.apache.org by Armin Le Grand <Ar...@me.com> on 2012/12/20 11:45:47 UTC
[proposal] Adopt palette to Symphony palette partially
Hi List,
Talking about palettes is always difficult - at the end, it's a question
of taste. Nonetheless, we need a palette which is by default installed
with the office. You all know the current one (for years ;-)) which I
think is far from optimal. Thus, I analyzed the current one and want to
share my findings. From that, I want to propose a change for our next
release. Also probably not optimal, but optimal in this field depends on
the user's eye and cannot be met by a single palette anyways.
Talking about palettes is also difficult since you need to 'see'
something - pictures say more than words. To make that easier, I have
prepared some data. Please look at
A Impress document containing two slides
(http://people.apache.org/~alg/Palette/palette.odp)
The two slides as png's for convenience
(http://people.apache.org/~alg/Palette/palette.png,
http://people.apache.org/~alg/Palette/palette2.png)
The following thext refers to figures there, so please take a look to
see what the text is about (...if you want to continue reading ;-))
The current (old?) AOO Palette, It's made up of five groups (from my
perspective):
(a) The 16 VGA colors: These come originally from the times where only
16 colors were possible and are in hex color notation exactly all eight
combinations of red/green/blue on or off, plus these in half intensity.
It *had* technical reasons, but these colors do not have any special
meaning for the user today (well, for the programmer). Anyways, they are
a result of old technical limitations. I think they are ugly and lead to
ugly results when using them directly (but that's my impression).
(b) The 'Main' Colors: 56 colors which try to build up to eight
gradient-stepped ranges, e.g. orange. These ranges are *not*
equidistantly spread, but somewhat wild/random (see e.g. the reds). I do
not know where they historically come from, but I guess they were done
by a deveoper at these days. There are some nice colors among them, but
not too many. I always search for useful colors there
(c) The Pale colors: These seem to be younger than the others, may have
to do historically with the StarOffice 5.2 color theme, but I'm not
sure. Not too bad, not too good a selection. A group of seven colors
which form a nice kind of 'schema' and make your presentation look
'acceptable' when using them together.
(d) The Chart colors: 12 colors used in the new chart module written
some years ago. AFAIK these were added at that time especially to
support the user having colors at hand corresponding to the default
chart colors. Nice. Useful.
(e) 'Nice' Colors: A sub-group from (b). One is fix, it's the mentioned
'Blue 9' which is currently the default color for objects and has to be
in the palette. I personally like (and often use) 'Blue Gray'. These are
a question of taste, I would reccomend the named ones, but we need to
collect 'your' favorites here. Keep in mind to keep this number low
(probably 4-5) and do not forget that the color you like were not
choosen freely, but *because* you were limited to the offered ones, so
it might be a compromize you are just used to.
Quite a mix. I compared it with Syphony's palette and there completely
new colors are used. One interesting aspect are the white/gray/black
ones: In our current palette these are divided between (a) (black, white
and two grays) and (b) (the rest, gray 80% .. gray 20%). This is of
course because the first four grays are technically in the old VGA
palette. I more than once were mad about finding the correct gray in our
palette, because of the bad positioning in it. Symphony has all needed
grays in one draw as first entries in the palette (what I would expect
nowadays).
Thus, I propose:
- Basically use Symphony palette
- Preserve some nice olors from our old palette, but not more than 4 or
5. The default color needs to be preserved (blue 9). I propose to only
keep 'Blue Gray', but let's see which other colors are favorites here...
- Add the Pale colors
- Add the Chart colors
The result is 'hand crafted' in the docs linked above, please have a
look :-)
Another aspect of the new palette is that it copies from Symphony the
use of '12-er groups' which look nice when you order the palette in a
way that 12 colors are in a row, please see the picture. This could be a
part of our sidepane in progress.
One more hint: This palette offers defaults to the user after AOO is
newly installed, not more (and not less). It can be changed by the user
anytime. Colors can be added/deleted by the user. This has no technical
limitations in the sense that changing the palette may influence
existing ODF's or other written files. E.g. the chart colors are there
to not have to look for them, but can be added/removed by the user
anytime (they are *not* the source for the chart to use them).
Lot of text for some colors. So, tell me what you think about this
proposed new palette!
Sincerely,
Armin
--
ALG
Re: Identifiable and customizable color groups ? (Re: [proposal]
Adopt palette to Symphony palette partially
Posted by "Rony G. Flatscher" <Ro...@wu.ac.at>.
Hi Armin,
On 20.12.2012 12:09, Armin Le Grand wrote:
>
> On 20.12.2012 12:01, Rony G. Flatscher (Apache) wrote:
> ----snip----
>> This is an interesting view at the different color groups! It would be great, if the UI would be
>> able to distinguish those groups and gives hints to which group a color belongs to when hovering
>> over the colors.
>>
>> Such an approach might also allow for defining additional custom groups (e.g. a group for the CI of
>> an organization, various groups of colors for different projects, purposes, etc.). Of course, there
>> would be a need then for importing, editing, removing such customized color groups. [The same might
>> be interesting to do with predefined gradient fill patterns.]
>
> This was not my intent, but is a good idea! For now there will not be the time to do something
> like that ('Palette-management' ?!), but I would ask you to file a feature task so that this will
> not get lost. This does not guarantee that someone finds the time or it will be done (as you
> probably know ;-)), but it can be found and refered to..
Sure, I understand.
But, if you had some time free at your fingertips, sometimes ...
;-)
---
Here is the requested RFE/issue: <https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=121521>.
Best regards
---rony
Re: Identifiable and customizable color groups ? (Re: [proposal] Adopt
palette to Symphony palette partially
Posted by Armin Le Grand <Ar...@me.com>.
Hi Rony,
On 20.12.2012 12:01, Rony G. Flatscher (Apache) wrote:
----snip----
> This is an interesting view at the different color groups! It would be great, if the UI would be
> able to distinguish those groups and gives hints to which group a color belongs to when hovering
> over the colors.
>
> Such an approach might also allow for defining additional custom groups (e.g. a group for the CI of
> an organization, various groups of colors for different projects, purposes, etc.). Of course, there
> would be a need then for importing, editing, removing such customized color groups. [The same might
> be interesting to do with predefined gradient fill patterns.]
This was not my intent, but is a good idea! For now there will not be
the time to do something like that ('Palette-management' ?!), but I
would ask you to file a feature task so that this will not get lost.
This does not guarantee that someone finds the time or it will be done
(as you probably know ;-)), but it can be found and refered to..
>
>
> ---rony
>
Sincerely,
Armin
--
ALG
Identifiable and customizable color groups ? (Re: [proposal] Adopt
palette to Symphony palette partially
Posted by "Rony G. Flatscher (Apache)" <ro...@apache.org>.
On 20.12.2012 11:45, Armin Le Grand wrote:
> Hi List,
>
> Talking about palettes is always difficult - at the end, it's a question of taste. Nonetheless, we
> need a palette which is by default installed with the office. You all know the current one (for
> years ;-)) which I think is far from optimal. Thus, I analyzed the current one and want to share
> my findings. From that, I want to propose a change for our next release. Also probably not
> optimal, but optimal in this field depends on the user's eye and cannot be met by a single palette
> anyways.
>
> Talking about palettes is also difficult since you need to 'see' something - pictures say more
> than words. To make that easier, I have prepared some data. Please look at
>
> A Impress document containing two slides (http://people.apache.org/~alg/Palette/palette.odp)
> The two slides as png's for convenience (http://people.apache.org/~alg/Palette/palette.png,
> http://people.apache.org/~alg/Palette/palette2.png)
>
> The following thext refers to figures there, so please take a look to see what the text is about
> (...if you want to continue reading ;-))
>
> The current (old?) AOO Palette, It's made up of five groups (from my perspective):
>
> (a) The 16 VGA colors: These come originally from the times where only 16 colors were possible and
> are in hex color notation exactly all eight combinations of red/green/blue on or off, plus these
> in half intensity. It *had* technical reasons, but these colors do not have any special meaning
> for the user today (well, for the programmer). Anyways, they are a result of old technical
> limitations. I think they are ugly and lead to ugly results when using them directly (but that's
> my impression).
>
> (b) The 'Main' Colors: 56 colors which try to build up to eight gradient-stepped ranges, e.g.
> orange. These ranges are *not* equidistantly spread, but somewhat wild/random (see e.g. the reds).
> I do not know where they historically come from, but I guess they were done by a deveoper at these
> days. There are some nice colors among them, but not too many. I always search for useful colors
> there
>
> (c) The Pale colors: These seem to be younger than the others, may have to do historically with
> the StarOffice 5.2 color theme, but I'm not sure. Not too bad, not too good a selection. A group
> of seven colors which form a nice kind of 'schema' and make your presentation look 'acceptable'
> when using them together.
>
> (d) The Chart colors: 12 colors used in the new chart module written some years ago. AFAIK these
> were added at that time especially to support the user having colors at hand corresponding to the
> default chart colors. Nice. Useful.
>
> (e) 'Nice' Colors: A sub-group from (b). One is fix, it's the mentioned 'Blue 9' which is
> currently the default color for objects and has to be in the palette. I personally like (and often
> use) 'Blue Gray'. These are a question of taste, I would reccomend the named ones, but we need to
> collect 'your' favorites here. Keep in mind to keep this number low (probably 4-5) and do not
> forget that the color you like were not choosen freely, but *because* you were limited to the
> offered ones, so it might be a compromize you are just used to.
...cut...
This is an interesting view at the different color groups! It would be great, if the UI would be
able to distinguish those groups and gives hints to which group a color belongs to when hovering
over the colors.
Such an approach might also allow for defining additional custom groups (e.g. a group for the CI of
an organization, various groups of colors for different projects, purposes, etc.). Of course, there
would be a need then for importing, editing, removing such customized color groups. [The same might
be interesting to do with predefined gradient fill patterns.]
---rony
Re: [proposal] Adopt palette to Symphony palette partially
Posted by Armin Le Grand <Ar...@me.com>.
Hi Ricardo,
On 20.12.2012 12:18, RGB ES wrote:
---snip---
>
> +1. Great selection of colours
I want to forward this to the Symphony guys who did that palette
initially ;-)
>
> Regards
> Ricardo
>
Sincerely,
Armin
--
ALG
Re: [proposal] Adopt palette to Symphony palette partially
Posted by RGB ES <rg...@gmail.com>.
2012/12/20 Armin Le Grand <Ar...@me.com>
> Hi List,
>
> Talking about palettes is always difficult - at the end, it's a question
> of taste. Nonetheless, we need a palette which is by default installed with
> the office. You all know the current one (for years ;-)) which I think is
> far from optimal. Thus, I analyzed the current one and want to share my
> findings. From that, I want to propose a change for our next release. Also
> probably not optimal, but optimal in this field depends on the user's eye
> and cannot be met by a single palette anyways.
>
> Talking about palettes is also difficult since you need to 'see' something
> - pictures say more than words. To make that easier, I have prepared some
> data. Please look at
>
> A Impress document containing two slides (http://people.apache.org/~**
> alg/Palette/palette.odp<http://people.apache.org/~alg/Palette/palette.odp>
> )
> The two slides as png's for convenience (http://people.apache.org/~**
> alg/Palette/palette.png<http://people.apache.org/~alg/Palette/palette.png>,
> http://people.apache.org/~alg/**Palette/palette2.png<http://people.apache.org/~alg/Palette/palette2.png>
> )
>
> The following thext refers to figures there, so please take a look to see
> what the text is about (...if you want to continue reading ;-))
>
> The current (old?) AOO Palette, It's made up of five groups (from my
> perspective):
>
> (a) The 16 VGA colors: These come originally from the times where only 16
> colors were possible and are in hex color notation exactly all eight
> combinations of red/green/blue on or off, plus these in half intensity. It
> *had* technical reasons, but these colors do not have any special meaning
> for the user today (well, for the programmer). Anyways, they are a result
> of old technical limitations. I think they are ugly and lead to ugly
> results when using them directly (but that's my impression).
>
> (b) The 'Main' Colors: 56 colors which try to build up to eight
> gradient-stepped ranges, e.g. orange. These ranges are *not* equidistantly
> spread, but somewhat wild/random (see e.g. the reds). I do not know where
> they historically come from, but I guess they were done by a deveoper at
> these days. There are some nice colors among them, but not too many. I
> always search for useful colors there
>
> (c) The Pale colors: These seem to be younger than the others, may have to
> do historically with the StarOffice 5.2 color theme, but I'm not sure. Not
> too bad, not too good a selection. A group of seven colors which form a
> nice kind of 'schema' and make your presentation look 'acceptable' when
> using them together.
>
> (d) The Chart colors: 12 colors used in the new chart module written some
> years ago. AFAIK these were added at that time especially to support the
> user having colors at hand corresponding to the default chart colors. Nice.
> Useful.
>
> (e) 'Nice' Colors: A sub-group from (b). One is fix, it's the mentioned
> 'Blue 9' which is currently the default color for objects and has to be in
> the palette. I personally like (and often use) 'Blue Gray'. These are a
> question of taste, I would reccomend the named ones, but we need to collect
> 'your' favorites here. Keep in mind to keep this number low (probably 4-5)
> and do not forget that the color you like were not choosen freely, but
> *because* you were limited to the offered ones, so it might be a compromize
> you are just used to.
>
> Quite a mix. I compared it with Syphony's palette and there completely new
> colors are used. One interesting aspect are the white/gray/black ones: In
> our current palette these are divided between (a) (black, white and two
> grays) and (b) (the rest, gray 80% .. gray 20%). This is of course because
> the first four grays are technically in the old VGA palette. I more than
> once were mad about finding the correct gray in our palette, because of the
> bad positioning in it. Symphony has all needed grays in one draw as first
> entries in the palette (what I would expect nowadays).
>
> Thus, I propose:
> - Basically use Symphony palette
> - Preserve some nice olors from our old palette, but not more than 4 or 5.
> The default color needs to be preserved (blue 9). I propose to only keep
> 'Blue Gray', but let's see which other colors are favorites here...
> - Add the Pale colors
> - Add the Chart colors
>
> The result is 'hand crafted' in the docs linked above, please have a look
> :-)
>
> Another aspect of the new palette is that it copies from Symphony the use
> of '12-er groups' which look nice when you order the palette in a way that
> 12 colors are in a row, please see the picture. This could be a part of our
> sidepane in progress.
>
> One more hint: This palette offers defaults to the user after AOO is newly
> installed, not more (and not less). It can be changed by the user anytime.
> Colors can be added/deleted by the user. This has no technical limitations
> in the sense that changing the palette may influence existing ODF's or
> other written files. E.g. the chart colors are there to not have to look
> for them, but can be added/removed by the user anytime (they are *not* the
> source for the chart to use them).
>
> Lot of text for some colors. So, tell me what you think about this
> proposed new palette!
>
> Sincerely,
> Armin
> --
> ALG
>
+1. Great selection of colours
Regards
Ricardo
Re: [proposal] Adopt palette to Symphony palette partially
Posted by Pedro Giffuni <pf...@apache.org>.
----- Messaggio originale -----
> Da: Armin Le Grand
>
> Hi Pedro,
>
> On 20.12.2012 16:21, Pedro Giffuni wrote:
>> Hello;
...
>>
>> Looking at Symphony: I like the color palette but it still can be improved.
> If you slide over
>> the colors you can see names and while some are descriptive, most are not
> (cyan1, cyan 2)
>>
>> There are certainly color professionals out there that have considered this
> and some colors
>> are popular enough to have a name:
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_colors_(compact)
>
> Good idea. I already thought about having a central place in the office
> with all known named colors (e.g. the Colors in the SVG standard,
> already in svgio module for example). The problem is that there are 24
> million colors (0xff^3). Despite that, there may be serveral names per
> color. Despite that, the names are not translated. Are color names
> translatable...?
>
Hmm.. there are indeed a lot of named colors: I thought I was looking at
the complete list but it was only A-M.
Yes, color names are translatable but even online translation services
should give acceptable results. Good thing there are international
volunteers that can help :).
>>
>>
>> I would suggest that we do take initially the Symphony palette but attempt
> to replace most
>> unnamed colors with something that can be identified by name in either of
> the lists above.
>> It's a lot of work and I am not volunteering though :(.
>
> I follow that suggestion: For now, let's use the (extended, see
> proposal) Symphony palette, but make a follow-up to find better color names.
>
Great!
> In the long run supporting multiple palettes (as Rony suggested, too)
> will be unavoidable I think; there are sooo many interesting colors,
> alone following your links and all the slightly different tones of
> white. And all that is only in RGB color space...
>
Maybe we should start taking color seriously some day and play with
something like CMS ;).
http://www.littlecms.com/
cheers,
Pedro.
Re: [proposal] Adopt palette to Symphony palette partially
Posted by Andrea Pescetti <pe...@apache.org>.
Armin Le Grand wrote:
> the names are not translated. Are color names
> translatable...?
Sure; we had the infamous "Soylent Green" incident, for example:
http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.openoffice.devel.localization/11766
> I follow that suggestion: For now, let's use the (extended, see
> proposal) Symphony palette, but make a follow-up to find better color
> names.
Just don't be too creative with names, since translation volunteers
won't see the actual colors when translating, but only the names!
Regards,
Andrea.
Re: [proposal] Adopt palette to Symphony palette partially
Posted by Armin Le Grand <Ar...@me.com>.
Hi Pedro,
On 20.12.2012 16:21, Pedro Giffuni wrote:
> Hello;
>
> Despite being so subjective, this is an extremely interesting subject.
>
> I went googling around the subject and it is quite important, I mean, there are experts that
> work on this stuff. For example, these guys will let you obtain a palette from a picture:
> http://www.degraeve.com/color-palette/index.php
Yes, experts. Colors are a wide area...
Nice links, Pedro!
>
>
> The first list of colors used as a basis for WWW standards were actually taken from the
> X11 palette:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X11_color_names
>
>
> If we were to adhere to some standard I guess that would be the starting point. Nevertheless,
> this is a matter that is far from being standardized.
>
> Looking at Symphony: I like the color palette but it still can be improved. If you slide over
> the colors you can see names and while some are descriptive, most are not (cyan1, cyan 2)
>
> There are certainly color professionals out there that have considered this and some colors
> are popular enough to have a name:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_colors_(compact)
Good idea. I already thought about having a central place in the office
with all known named colors (e.g. the Colors in the SVG standard,
already in svgio module for example). The problem is that there are 24
million colors (0xff^3). Despite that, there may be serveral names per
color. Despite that, the names are not translated. Are color names
translatable...?
>
>
> I would suggest that we do take initially the Symphony palette but attempt to replace most
> unnamed colors with something that can be identified by name in either of the lists above.
> It's a lot of work and I am not volunteering though :(.
I follow that suggestion: For now, let's use the (extended, see
proposal) Symphony palette, but make a follow-up to find better color names.
In the long run supporting multiple palettes (as Rony suggested, too)
will be unavoidable I think; there are sooo many interesting colors,
alone following your links and all the slightly different tones of
white. And all that is only in RGB color space...
>
> regards,
>
> Pedro.
>
Sincerely,
Armin
--
ALG
Re: [proposal] Adopt palette to Symphony palette partially
Posted by Pedro Giffuni <pf...@apache.org>.
Da: Pedro Giffuni
>
>Hello;
>
>Despite being so subjective, this is an extremely interesting subject.
>
>I went googling around the subject and it is quite important, I mean, there are experts that
>work on this stuff. For example, these guys will let you obtain a palette from a picture:
>http://www.degraeve.com/color-palette/index.php
>
>
>The first list of colors used as a basis for WWW standards were actually taken from the
>X11 palette:
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X11_color_names
>
>
>If we were to adhere to some standard I guess that would be the starting point. Nevertheless,
>this is a matter that is far from being standardized.
>
>Looking at Symphony: I like the color palette but it still can be improved. If you slide over
>the colors you can see names and while some are descriptive, most are not (cyan1, cyan 2)
>
>There are certainly color professionals out there that have considered this and some colors
>are popular enough to have a name:
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_colors_(compact)
>
>
>I would suggest that we do take initially the Symphony palette but attempt to replace most
>unnamed colors with something that can be identified by name in either of the lists above.
>It's a lot of work and I am not volunteering though :(.
>
Just following the last link ....
Perhaps just sorting this list by hex value would provide a complete palette
for any use:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_colors
>regards,
>
>Pedro.
Re: [proposal] Adopt palette to Symphony palette partially
Posted by Pedro Giffuni <pf...@apache.org>.
Hello;
Despite being so subjective, this is an extremely interesting subject.
I went googling around the subject and it is quite important, I mean, there are experts that
work on this stuff. For example, these guys will let you obtain a palette from a picture:
http://www.degraeve.com/color-palette/index.php
The first list of colors used as a basis for WWW standards were actually taken from the
X11 palette:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X11_color_names
If we were to adhere to some standard I guess that would be the starting point. Nevertheless,
this is a matter that is far from being standardized.
Looking at Symphony: I like the color palette but it still can be improved. If you slide over
the colors you can see names and while some are descriptive, most are not (cyan1, cyan 2)
There are certainly color professionals out there that have considered this and some colors
are popular enough to have a name:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_colors_(compact)
I would suggest that we do take initially the Symphony palette but attempt to replace most
unnamed colors with something that can be identified by name in either of the lists above.
It's a lot of work and I am not volunteering though :(.
regards,
Pedro.
>________________________________
> Da: Armin Le Grand <Ar...@me.com>
>A: dev@openoffice.apache.org
>Inviato: Giovedì 20 Dicembre 2012 5:45
>Oggetto: [proposal] Adopt palette to Symphony palette partially
>
> Hi List,
>
>Talking about palettes is always difficult - at the end, it's a question of taste. Nonetheless, we need a palette which is by default installed with the office. You all know the current one (for years ;-)) which I think is far from optimal. Thus, I analyzed the current one and want to share my findings. From that, I want to propose a change for our next release. Also probably not optimal, but optimal in this field depends on the user's eye and cannot be met by a single palette anyways.
>
>Talking about palettes is also difficult since you need to 'see' something - pictures say more than words. To make that easier, I have prepared some data. Please look at
>
>A Impress document containing two slides (http://people.apache.org/~alg/Palette/palette.odp)
>The two slides as png's for convenience (http://people.apache.org/~alg/Palette/palette.png, http://people.apache.org/~alg/Palette/palette2.png)
>
>The following thext refers to figures there, so please take a look to see what the text is about (...if you want to continue reading ;-))
>
>The current (old?) AOO Palette, It's made up of five groups (from my perspective):
>
>(a) The 16 VGA colors: These come originally from the times where only 16 colors were possible and are in hex color notation exactly all eight combinations of red/green/blue on or off, plus these in half intensity. It *had* technical reasons, but these colors do not have any special meaning for the user today (well, for the programmer). Anyways, they are a result of old technical limitations. I think they are ugly and lead to ugly results when using them directly (but that's my impression).
>
>(b) The 'Main' Colors: 56 colors which try to build up to eight gradient-stepped ranges, e.g. orange. These ranges are *not* equidistantly spread, but somewhat wild/random (see e.g. the reds). I do not know where they historically come from, but I guess they were done by a deveoper at these days. There are some nice colors among them, but not too many. I always search for useful colors there
>
>(c) The Pale colors: These seem to be younger than the others, may have to do historically with the StarOffice 5.2 color theme, but I'm not sure. Not too bad, not too good a selection. A group of seven colors which form a nice kind of 'schema' and make your presentation look 'acceptable' when using them together.
>
>(d) The Chart colors: 12 colors used in the new chart module written some years ago. AFAIK these were added at that time especially to support the user having colors at hand corresponding to the default chart colors. Nice. Useful.
>
>(e) 'Nice' Colors: A sub-group from (b). One is fix, it's the mentioned 'Blue 9' which is currently the default color for objects and has to be in the palette. I personally like (and often use) 'Blue Gray'. These are a question of taste, I would reccomend the named ones, but we need to collect 'your' favorites here. Keep in mind to keep this number low (probably 4-5) and do not forget that the color you like were not choosen freely, but *because* you were limited to the offered ones, so it might be a compromize you are just used to.
>
>Quite a mix. I compared it with Syphony's palette and there completely new colors are used. One interesting aspect are the white/gray/black ones: In our current palette these are divided between (a) (black, white and two grays) and (b) (the rest, gray 80% .. gray 20%). This is of course because the first four grays are technically in the old VGA palette. I more than once were mad about finding the correct gray in our palette, because of the bad positioning in it. Symphony has all needed grays in one draw as first entries in the palette (what I would expect nowadays).
>
>Thus, I propose:
>- Basically use Symphony palette
>- Preserve some nice olors from our old palette, but not more than 4 or 5. The default color needs to be preserved (blue 9). I propose to only keep 'Blue Gray', but let's see which other colors are favorites here...
>- Add the Pale colors
>- Add the Chart colors
>
>The result is 'hand crafted' in the docs linked above, please have a look :-)
>
>Another aspect of the new palette is that it copies from Symphony the use of '12-er groups' which look nice when you order the palette in a way that 12 colors are in a row, please see the picture. This could be a part of our sidepane in progress.
>
>One more hint: This palette offers defaults to the user after AOO is newly installed, not more (and not less). It can be changed by the user anytime. Colors can be added/deleted by the user. This has no technical limitations in the sense that changing the palette may influence existing ODF's or other written files. E.g. the chart colors are there to not have to look for them, but can be added/removed by the user anytime (they are *not* the source for the chart to use them).
>
>Lot of text for some colors. So, tell me what you think about this proposed new palette!
>
>Sincerely,
> Armin
>--
>ALG
>
>
>
Re: [proposal] Adopt palette to Symphony palette partially
Posted by Shenfeng Liu <li...@gmail.com>.
Armin,
Thanks very much for your great work!
I just recorded them in 4.0 planning wiki
here<https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/AOO+4.0+Release+Planning>
.
- Shenfeng (Simon)
2013/1/2 Armin Le Grand <Ar...@me.com>
> Hi List,
>
> I have now comitted the adapted version as discussed; please have a look
> in one of the next versions. As with gradients - suggestions are welcome,
> nothing i set in stone ;-)
>
> Sincerely,
> Armin
>
>
> On 20.12.2012 11:45, Armin Le Grand wrote:
>
>> Hi List,
>>
>> Talking about palettes is always difficult - at the end, it's a question
>> of taste. Nonetheless, we need a palette which is by default installed with
>> the office. You all know the current one (for years ;-)) which I think is
>> far from optimal. Thus, I analyzed the current one and want to share my
>> findings. From that, I want to propose a change for our next release. Also
>> probably not optimal, but optimal in this field depends on the user's eye
>> and cannot be met by a single palette anyways.
>>
>> Talking about palettes is also difficult since you need to 'see'
>> something - pictures say more than words. To make that easier, I have
>> prepared some data. Please look at
>>
>> A Impress document containing two slides (http://people.apache.org/~**
>> alg/Palette/palette.odp<http://people.apache.org/~alg/Palette/palette.odp>
>> )
>> The two slides as png's for convenience (http://people.apache.org/~**
>> alg/Palette/palette.png<http://people.apache.org/~alg/Palette/palette.png>,
>> http://people.apache.org/~alg/**Palette/palette2.png<http://people.apache.org/~alg/Palette/palette2.png>
>> )
>>
>> The following thext refers to figures there, so please take a look to see
>> what the text is about (...if you want to continue reading ;-))
>>
>> The current (old?) AOO Palette, It's made up of five groups (from my
>> perspective):
>>
>> (a) The 16 VGA colors: These come originally from the times where only 16
>> colors were possible and are in hex color notation exactly all eight
>> combinations of red/green/blue on or off, plus these in half intensity. It
>> *had* technical reasons, but these colors do not have any special meaning
>> for the user today (well, for the programmer). Anyways, they are a result
>> of old technical limitations. I think they are ugly and lead to ugly
>> results when using them directly (but that's my impression).
>>
>> (b) The 'Main' Colors: 56 colors which try to build up to eight
>> gradient-stepped ranges, e.g. orange. These ranges are *not* equidistantly
>> spread, but somewhat wild/random (see e.g. the reds). I do not know where
>> they historically come from, but I guess they were done by a deveoper at
>> these days. There are some nice colors among them, but not too many. I
>> always search for useful colors there
>>
>> (c) The Pale colors: These seem to be younger than the others, may have
>> to do historically with the StarOffice 5.2 color theme, but I'm not sure.
>> Not too bad, not too good a selection. A group of seven colors which form a
>> nice kind of 'schema' and make your presentation look 'acceptable' when
>> using them together.
>>
>> (d) The Chart colors: 12 colors used in the new chart module written some
>> years ago. AFAIK these were added at that time especially to support the
>> user having colors at hand corresponding to the default chart colors. Nice.
>> Useful.
>>
>> (e) 'Nice' Colors: A sub-group from (b). One is fix, it's the mentioned
>> 'Blue 9' which is currently the default color for objects and has to be in
>> the palette. I personally like (and often use) 'Blue Gray'. These are a
>> question of taste, I would reccomend the named ones, but we need to collect
>> 'your' favorites here. Keep in mind to keep this number low (probably 4-5)
>> and do not forget that the color you like were not choosen freely, but
>> *because* you were limited to the offered ones, so it might be a compromize
>> you are just used to.
>>
>> Quite a mix. I compared it with Syphony's palette and there completely
>> new colors are used. One interesting aspect are the white/gray/black ones:
>> In our current palette these are divided between (a) (black, white and two
>> grays) and (b) (the rest, gray 80% .. gray 20%). This is of course because
>> the first four grays are technically in the old VGA palette. I more than
>> once were mad about finding the correct gray in our palette, because of the
>> bad positioning in it. Symphony has all needed grays in one draw as first
>> entries in the palette (what I would expect nowadays).
>>
>> Thus, I propose:
>> - Basically use Symphony palette
>> - Preserve some nice olors from our old palette, but not more than 4 or
>> 5. The default color needs to be preserved (blue 9). I propose to only keep
>> 'Blue Gray', but let's see which other colors are favorites here...
>> - Add the Pale colors
>> - Add the Chart colors
>>
>> The result is 'hand crafted' in the docs linked above, please have a look
>> :-)
>>
>> Another aspect of the new palette is that it copies from Symphony the use
>> of '12-er groups' which look nice when you order the palette in a way that
>> 12 colors are in a row, please see the picture. This could be a part of our
>> sidepane in progress.
>>
>> One more hint: This palette offers defaults to the user after AOO is
>> newly installed, not more (and not less). It can be changed by the user
>> anytime. Colors can be added/deleted by the user. This has no technical
>> limitations in the sense that changing the palette may influence existing
>> ODF's or other written files. E.g. the chart colors are there to not have
>> to look for them, but can be added/removed by the user anytime (they are
>> *not* the source for the chart to use them).
>>
>> Lot of text for some colors. So, tell me what you think about this
>> proposed new palette!
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> Armin
>> --
>> ALG
>>
> --
> ALG
>
Re: [proposal] Adopt palette to Symphony palette partially
Posted by Armin Le Grand <Ar...@me.com>.
Hi List,
I have now comitted the adapted version as discussed; please have a look
in one of the next versions. As with gradients - suggestions are
welcome, nothing i set in stone ;-)
Sincerely,
Armin
On 20.12.2012 11:45, Armin Le Grand wrote:
> Hi List,
>
> Talking about palettes is always difficult - at the end, it's a
> question of taste. Nonetheless, we need a palette which is by default
> installed with the office. You all know the current one (for years
> ;-)) which I think is far from optimal. Thus, I analyzed the current
> one and want to share my findings. From that, I want to propose a
> change for our next release. Also probably not optimal, but optimal in
> this field depends on the user's eye and cannot be met by a single
> palette anyways.
>
> Talking about palettes is also difficult since you need to 'see'
> something - pictures say more than words. To make that easier, I have
> prepared some data. Please look at
>
> A Impress document containing two slides
> (http://people.apache.org/~alg/Palette/palette.odp)
> The two slides as png's for convenience
> (http://people.apache.org/~alg/Palette/palette.png,
> http://people.apache.org/~alg/Palette/palette2.png)
>
> The following thext refers to figures there, so please take a look to
> see what the text is about (...if you want to continue reading ;-))
>
> The current (old?) AOO Palette, It's made up of five groups (from my
> perspective):
>
> (a) The 16 VGA colors: These come originally from the times where only
> 16 colors were possible and are in hex color notation exactly all
> eight combinations of red/green/blue on or off, plus these in half
> intensity. It *had* technical reasons, but these colors do not have
> any special meaning for the user today (well, for the programmer).
> Anyways, they are a result of old technical limitations. I think they
> are ugly and lead to ugly results when using them directly (but that's
> my impression).
>
> (b) The 'Main' Colors: 56 colors which try to build up to eight
> gradient-stepped ranges, e.g. orange. These ranges are *not*
> equidistantly spread, but somewhat wild/random (see e.g. the reds). I
> do not know where they historically come from, but I guess they were
> done by a deveoper at these days. There are some nice colors among
> them, but not too many. I always search for useful colors there
>
> (c) The Pale colors: These seem to be younger than the others, may
> have to do historically with the StarOffice 5.2 color theme, but I'm
> not sure. Not too bad, not too good a selection. A group of seven
> colors which form a nice kind of 'schema' and make your presentation
> look 'acceptable' when using them together.
>
> (d) The Chart colors: 12 colors used in the new chart module written
> some years ago. AFAIK these were added at that time especially to
> support the user having colors at hand corresponding to the default
> chart colors. Nice. Useful.
>
> (e) 'Nice' Colors: A sub-group from (b). One is fix, it's the
> mentioned 'Blue 9' which is currently the default color for objects
> and has to be in the palette. I personally like (and often use) 'Blue
> Gray'. These are a question of taste, I would reccomend the named
> ones, but we need to collect 'your' favorites here. Keep in mind to
> keep this number low (probably 4-5) and do not forget that the color
> you like were not choosen freely, but *because* you were limited to
> the offered ones, so it might be a compromize you are just used to.
>
> Quite a mix. I compared it with Syphony's palette and there completely
> new colors are used. One interesting aspect are the white/gray/black
> ones: In our current palette these are divided between (a) (black,
> white and two grays) and (b) (the rest, gray 80% .. gray 20%). This is
> of course because the first four grays are technically in the old VGA
> palette. I more than once were mad about finding the correct gray in
> our palette, because of the bad positioning in it. Symphony has all
> needed grays in one draw as first entries in the palette (what I would
> expect nowadays).
>
> Thus, I propose:
> - Basically use Symphony palette
> - Preserve some nice olors from our old palette, but not more than 4
> or 5. The default color needs to be preserved (blue 9). I propose to
> only keep 'Blue Gray', but let's see which other colors are favorites
> here...
> - Add the Pale colors
> - Add the Chart colors
>
> The result is 'hand crafted' in the docs linked above, please have a
> look :-)
>
> Another aspect of the new palette is that it copies from Symphony the
> use of '12-er groups' which look nice when you order the palette in a
> way that 12 colors are in a row, please see the picture. This could be
> a part of our sidepane in progress.
>
> One more hint: This palette offers defaults to the user after AOO is
> newly installed, not more (and not less). It can be changed by the
> user anytime. Colors can be added/deleted by the user. This has no
> technical limitations in the sense that changing the palette may
> influence existing ODF's or other written files. E.g. the chart colors
> are there to not have to look for them, but can be added/removed by
> the user anytime (they are *not* the source for the chart to use them).
>
> Lot of text for some colors. So, tell me what you think about this
> proposed new palette!
>
> Sincerely,
> Armin
> --
> ALG
--
ALG
Re: [proposal] Adopt palette to Symphony palette partially
Posted by Armin Le Grand <Ar...@me.com>.
Hi juergen,
On 20.12.2012 15:54, Jürgen Schmidt wrote:
> On 12/20/12 2:36 PM, Kevin Grignon wrote:
>>
>> On Dec 20, 2012, at 6:06 PM, Armin Le Grand <Ar...@me.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Kevin,
>>>
>>> On 20.12.2012 12:01, Kevin Grignon wrote:
>>> ----snip----
>>>> Armin,
>>>>
>>>> Great enhancement. In fact this is in the UX backlog.
>>> Yes, it is, but we need to discuss it and someone has to do it ;-)
>>>
>> Let's use some mockups to make it real. This will help the discussion and drive an owner.
> I believe the pictures are no mockups but were taken from some local dev
> builds ;-)
The proposed new palette is a mockup, I did not already implement it ;-)
>
> Juergen
>
>> Kevin
>>
>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Kevin
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>> Armin
>>> --
>>> ALG
--
ALG
Re: [proposal] Adopt palette to Symphony palette partially
Posted by Jürgen Schmidt <jo...@gmail.com>.
On 12/20/12 2:36 PM, Kevin Grignon wrote:
>
>
> On Dec 20, 2012, at 6:06 PM, Armin Le Grand <Ar...@me.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Kevin,
>>
>> On 20.12.2012 12:01, Kevin Grignon wrote:
>> ----snip----
>>>
>>> Armin,
>>>
>>> Great enhancement. In fact this is in the UX backlog.
>>
>> Yes, it is, but we need to discuss it and someone has to do it ;-)
>>
>
> Let's use some mockups to make it real. This will help the discussion and drive an owner.
I believe the pictures are no mockups but were taken from some local dev
builds ;-)
Juergen
>
> Kevin
>
>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Kevin
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> Armin
>> --
>> ALG
Re: [proposal] Adopt palette to Symphony palette partially
Posted by Armin Le Grand <Ar...@me.com>.
Hi Kevin,
On 20.12.2012 14:36, Kevin Grignon wrote:
>
> On Dec 20, 2012, at 6:06 PM, Armin Le Grand <Ar...@me.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Kevin,
>>
>> On 20.12.2012 12:01, Kevin Grignon wrote:
>> ----snip----
>>> Armin,
>>>
>>> Great enhancement. In fact this is in the UX backlog.
>> Yes, it is, but we need to discuss it and someone has to do it ;-)
>>
> Let's use some mockups to make it real. This will help the discussion and drive an owner.
Please have a look at my initial proposal, there are mockups.
HTH!
>
> Kevin
>
>
>>> Regards,
>>> Kevin
>>>
>>>
>> Sincerely,
>> Armin
>> --
>> ALG
--
ALG
Re: [proposal] Adopt palette to Symphony palette partially
Posted by Kevin Grignon <ke...@gmail.com>.
On Dec 20, 2012, at 6:06 PM, Armin Le Grand <Ar...@me.com> wrote:
> Hi Kevin,
>
> On 20.12.2012 12:01, Kevin Grignon wrote:
> ----snip----
>>
>> Armin,
>>
>> Great enhancement. In fact this is in the UX backlog.
>
> Yes, it is, but we need to discuss it and someone has to do it ;-)
>
Let's use some mockups to make it real. This will help the discussion and drive an owner.
Kevin
>>
>> Regards,
>> Kevin
>>
>>
>
> Sincerely,
> Armin
> --
> ALG
Re: [proposal] Adopt palette to Symphony palette partially
Posted by Armin Le Grand <Ar...@me.com>.
Hi Kevin,
On 20.12.2012 12:01, Kevin Grignon wrote:
----snip----
>
> Armin,
>
> Great enhancement. In fact this is in the UX backlog.
Yes, it is, but we need to discuss it and someone has to do it ;-)
>
> Regards,
> Kevin
>
>
>
Sincerely,
Armin
--
ALG
Re: [proposal] Adopt palette to Symphony palette partially
Posted by Kevin Grignon <ke...@gmail.com>.
On Dec 20, 2012, at 5:45 PM, Armin Le Grand <Ar...@me.com> wrote:
> Hi List,
>
> Talking about palettes is always difficult - at the end, it's a question of taste. Nonetheless, we need a palette which is by default installed with the office. You all know the current one (for years ;-)) which I think is far from optimal. Thus, I analyzed the current one and want to share my findings. From that, I want to propose a change for our next release. Also probably not optimal, but optimal in this field depends on the user's eye and cannot be met by a single palette anyways.
>
> Talking about palettes is also difficult since you need to 'see' something - pictures say more than words. To make that easier, I have prepared some data. Please look at
>
> A Impress document containing two slides (http://people.apache.org/~alg/Palette/palette.odp)
> The two slides as png's for convenience (http://people.apache.org/~alg/Palette/palette.png, http://people.apache.org/~alg/Palette/palette2.png)
>
> The following thext refers to figures there, so please take a look to see what the text is about (...if you want to continue reading ;-))
>
> The current (old?) AOO Palette, It's made up of five groups (from my perspective):
>
> (a) The 16 VGA colors: These come originally from the times where only 16 colors were possible and are in hex color notation exactly all eight combinations of red/green/blue on or off, plus these in half intensity. It *had* technical reasons, but these colors do not have any special meaning for the user today (well, for the programmer). Anyways, they are a result of old technical limitations. I think they are ugly and lead to ugly results when using them directly (but that's my impression).
>
> (b) The 'Main' Colors: 56 colors which try to build up to eight gradient-stepped ranges, e.g. orange. These ranges are *not* equidistantly spread, but somewhat wild/random (see e.g. the reds). I do not know where they historically come from, but I guess they were done by a deveoper at these days. There are some nice colors among them, but not too many. I always search for useful colors there
>
> (c) The Pale colors: These seem to be younger than the others, may have to do historically with the StarOffice 5.2 color theme, but I'm not sure. Not too bad, not too good a selection. A group of seven colors which form a nice kind of 'schema' and make your presentation look 'acceptable' when using them together.
>
> (d) The Chart colors: 12 colors used in the new chart module written some years ago. AFAIK these were added at that time especially to support the user having colors at hand corresponding to the default chart colors. Nice. Useful.
>
> (e) 'Nice' Colors: A sub-group from (b). One is fix, it's the mentioned 'Blue 9' which is currently the default color for objects and has to be in the palette. I personally like (and often use) 'Blue Gray'. These are a question of taste, I would reccomend the named ones, but we need to collect 'your' favorites here. Keep in mind to keep this number low (probably 4-5) and do not forget that the color you like were not choosen freely, but *because* you were limited to the offered ones, so it might be a compromize you are just used to.
>
> Quite a mix. I compared it with Syphony's palette and there completely new colors are used. One interesting aspect are the white/gray/black ones: In our current palette these are divided between (a) (black, white and two grays) and (b) (the rest, gray 80% .. gray 20%). This is of course because the first four grays are technically in the old VGA palette. I more than once were mad about finding the correct gray in our palette, because of the bad positioning in it. Symphony has all needed grays in one draw as first entries in the palette (what I would expect nowadays).
>
> Thus, I propose:
> - Basically use Symphony palette
> - Preserve some nice olors from our old palette, but not more than 4 or 5. The default color needs to be preserved (blue 9). I propose to only keep 'Blue Gray', but let's see which other colors are favorites here...
> - Add the Pale colors
> - Add the Chart colors
>
> The result is 'hand crafted' in the docs linked above, please have a look :-)
>
> Another aspect of the new palette is that it copies from Symphony the use of '12-er groups' which look nice when you order the palette in a way that 12 colors are in a row, please see the picture. This could be a part of our sidepane in progress.
>
> One more hint: This palette offers defaults to the user after AOO is newly installed, not more (and not less). It can be changed by the user anytime. Colors can be added/deleted by the user. This has no technical limitations in the sense that changing the palette may influence existing ODF's or other written files. E.g. the chart colors are there to not have to look for them, but can be added/removed by the user anytime (they are *not* the source for the chart to use them).
>
> Lot of text for some colors. So, tell me what you think about this proposed new palette!
>
> Sincerely,
> Armin
> --
> ALG
Armin,
Great enhancement. In fact this is in the UX backlog.
Regards,
Kevin