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Posted to users@tomcat.apache.org by Tomcat Random <to...@gmail.com> on 2013/07/30 21:42:24 UTC
Configuration question for 2500 simultaneous users.
The project I'm working on has 5000 simultaneous users average. I have two
physical servers both running an instance of Tomcat 7.0. They're behind a
physical load balancer with sticky, least connections balancing. Nothing in
front of the Tomcats. Port 80 to is routed to them by iptables.
Anyone out there willing to offer some tips (or point me to them) on
configuration for this amount of traffic?
Environment is:
DELL PowerEdge R720 - 32 GB DELL RAM, GB Memory: 32
Single Socket Six Core Intel Xeon E5-2640 2.5GHz, #Processors: 1, #Cores
per Proc: 6
RHEL 6
TIA,
Alec
Re: Configuration question for 2500 simultaneous users.
Posted by Christopher Schultz <ch...@christopherschultz.net>.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256
Alec,
On 8/1/13 6:14 PM, Tomcat Random wrote:
> I'm expecting 5000 simultaneous users, with a physical load
> balancer to two physical app servers. So ~2500 per machine, each
> running an instance of tomcat not fronted by httpd or any proxy
> server. (i.e., using Tomcat to serve a few static assets along with
> the webapp).
Again, how many simultaneous /connections/ -- or requests -- do you
expect to handle? The number of simultaneous users is really only
relevant if you use sessions and then it comes down to memory (heap)
and failover (replication) if you want it.
What's much more important is the transaction rate. For instance, if
you expect 5000 users (really ~2500 per instance) and they each make a
request once per minute, than that's 2500 requests per minute or ~40
req/sec. If your average transaction takes longer than 1/40 sec
(250ms), then you are in trouble because you will not be able to keep
up with demand.
If your users make 2 transactions per minute, then you need to have
average transaction time down to 1/80 sec (125ms) or you will not be
able to keep up.
What happens if one host fails and the other one picks up *all* the
traffic? That means you need to do the average transaction in 1/160
sec (62ms) or you will not be able to keep up.
You might consider using a hot-spare or 3 instances.
> "are you just interested in speculative performance tuning?" That's
> correct - with just one user (myself) testing it everything is
> wonderful. I've just got that uneasy feeling the servers will
> explode when we flip over from our old host/codebase and get all
> the traffic.
JMeter is your friend. Put in the time to build workflow simulations.
It will pay you back manifold. You can even use your JMeter load tests
to do quick smoke-testing in production after a release just to make
sure you didn't miss anything.
- -chris
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Re: Configuration question for 2500 simultaneous users.
Posted by Tomcat Random <to...@gmail.com>.
Hey Chris,
I'm expecting 5000 simultaneous users, with a physical load balancer to two
physical app servers. So ~2500 per machine, each running an instance of
tomcat not fronted by httpd or any proxy server. (i.e., using Tomcat to
serve a few static assets along with the webapp).
"are you just interested in speculative performance tuning?" That's correct
- with just one user (myself) testing it everything is wonderful. I've just
got that uneasy feeling the servers will explode when we flip over from our
old host/codebase and get all the traffic.
Best,
Alec
On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 11:09 AM, Christopher Schultz <
chris@christopherschultz.net> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA256
>
> Alec,
>
> On 7/30/13 3:42 PM, Tomcat Random wrote:
> > The project I'm working on has 5000 simultaneous users average. I
> > have two physical servers both running an instance of Tomcat 7.0.
> > They're behind a physical load balancer with sticky, least
> > connections balancing. Nothing in front of the Tomcats. Port 80 to
> > is routed to them by iptables.
> >
> > Anyone out there willing to offer some tips (or point me to them)
> > on configuration for this amount of traffic?
> >
> > Environment is: DELL PowerEdge R720 - 32 GB DELL RAM, GB Memory:
> > 32 Single Socket Six Core Intel Xeon E5-2640 2.5GHz, #Processors:
> > 1, #Cores per Proc: 6 RHEL 6
>
> Are you experiencing any problems, or are you just interested in
> speculative performance tuning?
>
> Tomcat's default configuration is quite reasonable. How many
> simultaneous /connections/ do you expect?
>
> - -chris
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Re: Configuration question for 2500 simultaneous users.
Posted by Christopher Schultz <ch...@christopherschultz.net>.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256
Alec,
On 7/30/13 3:42 PM, Tomcat Random wrote:
> The project I'm working on has 5000 simultaneous users average. I
> have two physical servers both running an instance of Tomcat 7.0.
> They're behind a physical load balancer with sticky, least
> connections balancing. Nothing in front of the Tomcats. Port 80 to
> is routed to them by iptables.
>
> Anyone out there willing to offer some tips (or point me to them)
> on configuration for this amount of traffic?
>
> Environment is: DELL PowerEdge R720 - 32 GB DELL RAM, GB Memory:
> 32 Single Socket Six Core Intel Xeon E5-2640 2.5GHz, #Processors:
> 1, #Cores per Proc: 6 RHEL 6
Are you experiencing any problems, or are you just interested in
speculative performance tuning?
Tomcat's default configuration is quite reasonable. How many
simultaneous /connections/ do you expect?
- -chris
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AW: Configuration question for 2500 simultaneous users.
Posted by Stadelmann Josef <jo...@axa-winterthur.ch>.
I would also read about "how to scale up web applications" !
Also you may talk to those which have their web apps already in the cloud !
In a cloud, adding more CPU's, adding more memory, adding more data storage space is easy.
And what about communication and data band width and related equipment ?
any clues about how large or small your request/reply packages are ?
It is a difference if 5000 users download a streaming movie in real-time, or streaming music in real-time, or streaming compressed stock market data in even better real time or books or any other sort of compound documents in 8 to 10 minutes down load time,; so what are the demands from a user perspective to reach a high quality of service?
Josef Stadelmann
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Mark Eggers [mailto:its_toasted@yahoo.com]
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 31. Juli 2013 00:18
An: Tomcat Users List
Betreff: Re: Configuration question for 2500 simultaneous users.
On 7/30/2013 1:17 PM, Tomcat Random wrote:
> Thanks Mark, I will give it a close read.
>
> As far as profiling, are you using any tools that are worth mentioning?
>
Nothing outstanding, since currently all of our applications are pretty lightweight. That may change if we redo the architecture.
JMeter / Selenium in combination can generate a lot of traffic. Generate a selenium test script, export to JUnit, couple with HTMLUnit, and hammer away.
There are several ways to watch what goes on with your application:
JConsole
VisualVM
The Tomcat Wiki page has more:
http://wiki.apache.org/tomcat/FAQ/Monitoring
For lighter weight profiling (usually to figure out where the application bottlenecks are), I run the project under NetBeans and instrument the project.
Access logs are usually a good first source for generating JMeter tests.
In general, people can only give you guidelines concerning sizing, profiling, and benchmarking. The particulars depend on your particular application.
. . . . just my two cents.
/mde/
PS - Please don't top post.
> Best,
> A
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 4:02 PM, Mark Eggers <it...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> On 7/30/2013 12:42 PM, Tomcat Random wrote:
>>
>>> The project I'm working on has 5000 simultaneous users average. I
>>> have two physical servers both running an instance of Tomcat 7.0.
>>> They're behind a physical load balancer with sticky, least
>>> connections balancing. Nothing in front of the Tomcats. Port 80 to
>>> is routed to them by iptables.
>>>
>>> Anyone out there willing to offer some tips (or point me to them) on
>>> configuration for this amount of traffic?
>>>
>>> Environment is:
>>> DELL PowerEdge R720 - 32 GB DELL RAM, GB Memory: 32 Single Socket
>>> Six Core Intel Xeon E5-2640 2.5GHz, #Processors: 1, #Cores per Proc:
>>> 6 RHEL 6
>>>
>>> TIA,
>>> Alec
>>>
>>>
>> A great overview, and a solid outline of the process you should follow:
>>
>> http://people.apache.org/~**markt/presentations/2009-04-**
>> 01-TomcatTuning.pdf<http://people.apache.org/~markt/presentations/200
>> 9-04-01-TomcatTuning.pdf>
>>
>> That, plus profiling your application with real-world traffic to
>> understand bottlenecks and use cases . . .
>>
>> . . . just my two cents.
>> /mde/
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Re: Configuration question for 2500 simultaneous users.
Posted by Christopher Schultz <ch...@christopherschultz.net>.
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Hash: SHA256
Alec,
On 8/1/13 6:08 PM, Tomcat Random wrote:
> Thanks Mark, I've been getting up to speed on JMeter. I've used
> selenium before. "The particulars depend on your particular
> application" - agreed. That part I can work out myself by looking
> at bottlenecks, generally timing areas of the application with more
> and more granularity, in places where the app behaves slowly.
Just remember that you can't really benchmark your application with a
single client. There are behaviors that only emerge under some kind of
load. For instance, uncontended object monitors (i.e. synchronized
methods, blocks, etc.) in the JVM can be obtained very quickly. So, if
you have a resource that requires serialized access (e.g. db
connection pool), it may perform very well under an isolated test: you
find that your most time-consuming request/response pair takes, say,
850ms.
That's great: you do the math and say that you can handle 1.18 req/sec
on average and with users expected to make 1 request every 10 seconds,
that means that you can handle ~12 simultaneous users with no apparent
slow-down.
Then you get contended locks, which are slower. Instead of roughly
zero time to obtain an object lock, let's say it takes 50ms (that's
grossly overstating the amount of time required to obtain an object
lock, but somewhat instructive). So now you're up to 900ms for your
transaction and you can handle 1.11 req/sec with no slowdown and you
can only handle 11 simultaneous users.
Multiply those effects by a lot (lots of transactions, lots of users,
lots of multi-threaded conflicts) and you can find that you really can
only handle 91% of the traffic you thought you could.
If you use JMeter, your software will get better: you will be able to
identify those transactions that don't perform well and focus your
optimization efforts in those places, instead of just reading code,
changing StringBuffer to StringBuilder and new Integer() to
Integer.valueOf() and convincing yourself that you now have an
optimized piece of software.
With a load-testing suite, you can prove to yourself (and, perhaps
more importantly, your boss) that your software can handle the load
you expect. It also helps with resource planning: if you know that a
single instance of Tomcat on X hardware can handle Y load and you
expect Z actual load, then you know you need Z / Y pieces of X
hardware to run properly. Then multiply by some fudge factor (say 20%)
and take the ceiling of that (so you always have an extra server...
just in case). So maybe it's more like [ Z * 1.2 / Y ]. Oh, and
remember that Z needs to represent *peak load* and not average load.
If you have an online flower shop, you need to plan for the week of
Valentine's Day during business hours, not the following Saturday in
the middle of the night.
Gather a ton of data and look at it. Graph it. You will learn a lot.
Oh, and if you're using httpd (you didn't say), you might want to look
into the "event" MPM: it won't waste connections waiting around for
KeepAlive requests that never come from clients. The default MPM for
httpd 2.4 on *NIX is "event" when supported by the OS and prefork for
httpd 2.2. I believe "event" is stable on 2.2 -- just not the default.
Benchmark with and without it and see if it makes a difference. With
JMeter, your tests might be distorted because of how the tests run
(e.g. constantly). You might have to fiddle with the JMeter
configuration to get it to act more like a "real" browser by leaving
connections open for a few seconds after making all the requests for a
page. Then you may notice a difference.
- -chris
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Re: Configuration question for 2500 simultaneous users.
Posted by Tomcat Random <to...@gmail.com>.
Thanks Mark, I've been getting up to speed on JMeter. I've used selenium
before. "The particulars depend on your particular application" - agreed.
That part I can work out myself by looking at bottlenecks, generally timing
areas of the application with more and more granularity, in places where
the app behaves slowly.
Best,
Alec
On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 6:17 PM, Mark Eggers <it...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 7/30/2013 1:17 PM, Tomcat Random wrote:
>
>> Thanks Mark, I will give it a close read.
>>
>> As far as profiling, are you using any tools that are worth mentioning?
>>
>>
> Nothing outstanding, since currently all of our applications are pretty
> lightweight. That may change if we redo the architecture.
>
> JMeter / Selenium in combination can generate a lot of traffic. Generate a
> selenium test script, export to JUnit, couple with HTMLUnit, and hammer
> away.
>
> There are several ways to watch what goes on with your application:
>
> JConsole
> VisualVM
>
> The Tomcat Wiki page has more:
>
> http://wiki.apache.org/tomcat/**FAQ/Monitoring<http://wiki.apache.org/tomcat/FAQ/Monitoring>
>
> For lighter weight profiling (usually to figure out where the application
> bottlenecks are), I run the project under NetBeans and instrument the
> project.
>
> Access logs are usually a good first source for generating JMeter tests.
>
> In general, people can only give you guidelines concerning sizing,
> profiling, and benchmarking. The particulars depend on your particular
> application.
>
>
> . . . . just my two cents.
> /mde/
>
> PS - Please don't top post.
>
> Best,
>> A
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 4:02 PM, Mark Eggers <it...@yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> On 7/30/2013 12:42 PM, Tomcat Random wrote:
>>>
>>> The project I'm working on has 5000 simultaneous users average. I have
>>>> two
>>>> physical servers both running an instance of Tomcat 7.0. They're behind
>>>> a
>>>> physical load balancer with sticky, least connections balancing. Nothing
>>>> in
>>>> front of the Tomcats. Port 80 to is routed to them by iptables.
>>>>
>>>> Anyone out there willing to offer some tips (or point me to them) on
>>>> configuration for this amount of traffic?
>>>>
>>>> Environment is:
>>>> DELL PowerEdge R720 - 32 GB DELL RAM, GB Memory: 32
>>>> Single Socket Six Core Intel Xeon E5-2640 2.5GHz, #Processors: 1, #Cores
>>>> per Proc: 6
>>>> RHEL 6
>>>>
>>>> TIA,
>>>> Alec
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> A great overview, and a solid outline of the process you should follow:
>>>
>>> http://people.apache.org/~****markt/presentations/2009-04-**<http://people.apache.org/~**markt/presentations/2009-04-**>
>>> 01-TomcatTuning.pdf<http://**people.apache.org/~markt/**
>>> presentations/2009-04-01-**TomcatTuning.pdf<http://people.apache.org/~markt/presentations/2009-04-01-TomcatTuning.pdf>
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>> That, plus profiling your application with real-world traffic to
>>> understand bottlenecks and use cases . . .
>>>
>>> . . . just my two cents.
>>> /mde/
>>>
>>
>
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Re: Configuration question for 2500 simultaneous users.
Posted by Mark Eggers <it...@yahoo.com>.
On 7/30/2013 1:17 PM, Tomcat Random wrote:
> Thanks Mark, I will give it a close read.
>
> As far as profiling, are you using any tools that are worth mentioning?
>
Nothing outstanding, since currently all of our applications are pretty
lightweight. That may change if we redo the architecture.
JMeter / Selenium in combination can generate a lot of traffic. Generate
a selenium test script, export to JUnit, couple with HTMLUnit, and
hammer away.
There are several ways to watch what goes on with your application:
JConsole
VisualVM
The Tomcat Wiki page has more:
http://wiki.apache.org/tomcat/FAQ/Monitoring
For lighter weight profiling (usually to figure out where the
application bottlenecks are), I run the project under NetBeans and
instrument the project.
Access logs are usually a good first source for generating JMeter tests.
In general, people can only give you guidelines concerning sizing,
profiling, and benchmarking. The particulars depend on your particular
application.
. . . . just my two cents.
/mde/
PS - Please don't top post.
> Best,
> A
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 4:02 PM, Mark Eggers <it...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> On 7/30/2013 12:42 PM, Tomcat Random wrote:
>>
>>> The project I'm working on has 5000 simultaneous users average. I have two
>>> physical servers both running an instance of Tomcat 7.0. They're behind a
>>> physical load balancer with sticky, least connections balancing. Nothing
>>> in
>>> front of the Tomcats. Port 80 to is routed to them by iptables.
>>>
>>> Anyone out there willing to offer some tips (or point me to them) on
>>> configuration for this amount of traffic?
>>>
>>> Environment is:
>>> DELL PowerEdge R720 - 32 GB DELL RAM, GB Memory: 32
>>> Single Socket Six Core Intel Xeon E5-2640 2.5GHz, #Processors: 1, #Cores
>>> per Proc: 6
>>> RHEL 6
>>>
>>> TIA,
>>> Alec
>>>
>>>
>> A great overview, and a solid outline of the process you should follow:
>>
>> http://people.apache.org/~**markt/presentations/2009-04-**
>> 01-TomcatTuning.pdf<http://people.apache.org/~markt/presentations/2009-04-01-TomcatTuning.pdf>
>>
>> That, plus profiling your application with real-world traffic to
>> understand bottlenecks and use cases . . .
>>
>> . . . just my two cents.
>> /mde/
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Re: Configuration question for 2500 simultaneous users.
Posted by Tomcat Random <to...@gmail.com>.
Thanks Mark, I will give it a close read.
As far as profiling, are you using any tools that are worth mentioning?
Best,
A
On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 4:02 PM, Mark Eggers <it...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 7/30/2013 12:42 PM, Tomcat Random wrote:
>
>> The project I'm working on has 5000 simultaneous users average. I have two
>> physical servers both running an instance of Tomcat 7.0. They're behind a
>> physical load balancer with sticky, least connections balancing. Nothing
>> in
>> front of the Tomcats. Port 80 to is routed to them by iptables.
>>
>> Anyone out there willing to offer some tips (or point me to them) on
>> configuration for this amount of traffic?
>>
>> Environment is:
>> DELL PowerEdge R720 - 32 GB DELL RAM, GB Memory: 32
>> Single Socket Six Core Intel Xeon E5-2640 2.5GHz, #Processors: 1, #Cores
>> per Proc: 6
>> RHEL 6
>>
>> TIA,
>> Alec
>>
>>
> A great overview, and a solid outline of the process you should follow:
>
> http://people.apache.org/~**markt/presentations/2009-04-**
> 01-TomcatTuning.pdf<http://people.apache.org/~markt/presentations/2009-04-01-TomcatTuning.pdf>
>
> That, plus profiling your application with real-world traffic to
> understand bottlenecks and use cases . . .
>
> . . . just my two cents.
> /mde/
>
> ------------------------------**------------------------------**---------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tomcat.**apache.org<us...@tomcat.apache.org>
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>
Re: Configuration question for 2500 simultaneous users.
Posted by Mark Eggers <it...@yahoo.com>.
On 7/30/2013 12:42 PM, Tomcat Random wrote:
> The project I'm working on has 5000 simultaneous users average. I have two
> physical servers both running an instance of Tomcat 7.0. They're behind a
> physical load balancer with sticky, least connections balancing. Nothing in
> front of the Tomcats. Port 80 to is routed to them by iptables.
>
> Anyone out there willing to offer some tips (or point me to them) on
> configuration for this amount of traffic?
>
> Environment is:
> DELL PowerEdge R720 - 32 GB DELL RAM, GB Memory: 32
> Single Socket Six Core Intel Xeon E5-2640 2.5GHz, #Processors: 1, #Cores
> per Proc: 6
> RHEL 6
>
> TIA,
> Alec
>
A great overview, and a solid outline of the process you should follow:
http://people.apache.org/~markt/presentations/2009-04-01-TomcatTuning.pdf
That, plus profiling your application with real-world traffic to
understand bottlenecks and use cases . . .
. . . just my two cents.
/mde/
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