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Posted to dev@turbine.apache.org by Colin Chalmers <co...@maxware.nl> on 2003/07/19 15:24:20 UTC
RE: Decimal Number support
"We are the only three active developers on the project."
Hhmm, that's not much. If my patches were to get checked in I could probably
work on a few other bits & pieces. I have a lull between projects at the
moment.
Colin
-----Original Message-----
From: Henning Schmiedehausen [mailto:hps@intermeta.de]
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 3:13 PM
To: Bill
Cc: Quinton McCombs; Eric Pugh; Turbine Developers List
Subject: RE: Decimal Number support
I hope that noone will ever regret to get involved with turbine
development. :-)
How can you help? Well, easiest thing would be to ask yourself "which
part of Turbine hurts me most". I'm sure that every turbine developer
would come up with a different part. :-)
If you're somehow seasoned with the maven development tool, one of the
things that we really could need for the 2.3 release would be a simple,
skeletal build environment with some preset configuration files for
turbine, log4j and torque, and a simple way to generate a project.xml
file for "your new turbine project". The current tdk is simply to
cumbersome and aged to really work well. I admire the work that Martin
did to get a 2.2 TDK out but with maven around we might get a simpler,
better working and easier to understand development environment from
maven and a few tools.
So this would be a really cool place to work on. I can send you some
demo apps that I threw together for demonstrating various aspects of
Turbine (you'll find links in the -dev archive, else I can send them to
you) and you would have to put together some build scripts.
What platform do you normally work on? Windows or Unix/Linux? As far as
I can see, we could really need some more people testing the HEAD on
Windows.
Regards
Henning
On Wed, 2003-06-18 at 22:19, Bill wrote:
> Ok, I'm gonna regret this...but how can I help at this point? :)
>
> I dont have a ton of time, but what time I do have, I'd be more than
> willing to give.
>
> I'm probably not nearly as savvy a java coder as the three of you, but
> consider me at your service if I can speed things along.
>
> -b
>
> On Wed, 2003-06-18 at 15:05, Quinton McCombs wrote:
> > I don't recall that discussion although I have only been active on the
> > lists for about 8 - 9 months. I do know that the development of Turbine
> > is not only for support releases. Turbine 2.3 has been the continuation
> > of clean up and bug fixes. There have been very few new features added.
> >
> > Turbine 2.4 should should add Avalonization and a backport pipeline
> > functionality from Turbine 3. Both of these changes are geared to give
> > the user much greater flexibility in extending the product while at the
> > same time reducing the interdependencies between the various services.
> >
> > With the release of 2.4, I think that you will see that it is much
> > easier to change views and persistence layers. You will also be able to
> > use components from other projects in Turbine. For example, if you want
> > to use the quartz scheduler, Hibernate, or a few components from the
> > Plexus/Summit project, they should work without a problem.
> >
> > Turbine is not dead. It is moving rather slowly though. Henning has
> > been committing 90% of all of the changes lately. I have been unable to
> > work on the project for a little over a month now. Eric mainly focuses
> > of his new configuration stuff and unit testing. We are the only three
> > active developers on the project.
> >
> >
> > --------------------------------------------
> > Quinton McCombs
> > NequalsOne - HealthCare marketing tools
> > mailto:qmccombs@NequalsOne.com
> > http://www.NequalsOne.com
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Bill [mailto:bhalpin@collaborativefusion.com]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 1:52 PM
> > > To: Quinton McCombs
> > > Subject: RE: Decimal Number support
> > >
> > >
> > > I'm curious...I made that exact point when the original
> > > announcement was made. The response from the list was no one
> > > is using or interested in using FM, and that all future
> > > releases were merely support releases. If Turbine
> > > development is only support releases at this point and we're
> > > moving toward Avalon, it doesnt make sense to add features in my mind.
> > >
> > > However, I have been stuck with a lot of work on the Business
> > > side of things in my company and have not been as attentive
> > > to the list as in the past. Did I miss a change, is this
> > > project now 'alive' again?
> > >
> > > -b
> > >
> > > On Wed, 2003-06-18 at 14:31, Quinton McCombs wrote:
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Bill [mailto:bhalpin@collaborativefusion.com]
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 8:15 AM
> > > > > To: Henning P. Schmiedehausen
> > > > > Cc: turbine-user
> > > > > Subject: Re: Decimal Number support
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Henning
> > > > >
> > > > > I think working on Freemarker support would be a waste of the
> > > > > developers valuable time.
> > > >
> > > > It would not be a waste of time is people are interested in
> > > using it.
> > > >
> > > > > However, divorcing Turbine from
> > > > > Velocity to allow more flexibility not only seems like a good
> > > > > idea, it seems absolutely necessary if the I understand the
> > > > > path to Avalonization.
> > > >
> > > > I agree with you that the flexibility would be a very good thing.
> > > >
> > > > Our view architecture is really not very plugable. The problem is
> > > > that once you start writing your actions and screen classes which
> > > > accept RunData and Context as parameters, you are become
> > > tied to the
> > > > view implementation. This was very much a shortcoming of the core
> > > > design of Turbine.
> > > >
> > > > Hennings idea to create a proxy class to represent the context type
> > > > object of the underlying view is indeed a good way to solve this
> > > > problem. It would require deprecating the methods that everyone
> > > > normally overrides in the screen and action classes. The
> > > replacement
> > > > would be virtually the same interface replacing Context
> > > with the new
> > > > class.
> > > >
> > > > Even if we do not decide to support FreeMarker, I think
> > > that it would
> > > > be in our best interests to implement the proxy class for
> > > the context.
> > > > Right now, if your view is JSP and you want to switch to
> > > Velocity or
> > > > visa-versa, you must modify all of your action and screen classes.
> > > > Not fun.
> > > >
> > > > > -b
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wed, 2003-06-18 at 06:41, Henning P. Schmiedehausen wrote:
> > > > > > Jonathan Revusky <jo...@revusky.com> writes:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >Henning P. Schmiedehausen wrote:
> > > > > > >> Hi,
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> is anyone of you needing or missing FreeMarker Support
> > > > > in Turbine
> > > > > > >> 2.2?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >I believe the question should maybe be rephrased:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >Is any one of you needing or missing decimal number support in
> > > > > > >Velocity?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ok,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Folks, is anyone of you missing <insert your feature
> > > here that FM
> > > > > > supports and Velocity does not> from the View portion
> > > of Turbine?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You will find a feature complete list on
> > > > > http://www.freemarker.org for
> > > > > > FreeMarker and on http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity
> > > for Velocity.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If yes, would you consider a switch from Velocity to
> > > FreeMarker as
> > > > > > View for Turbine or would you get a pull tool to support
> > > > > this feature?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The reason for this (and Jonathans' response): On the
> > > > > Velocity lists,
> > > > > > there has been some rumbling about the current
> > > development state
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > Velocity and talking about alternatives to it. As we
> > > (Turbine) did
> > > > > > remove the (quite aged and not actively maintained)
> > > > > FreeMarker support
> > > > > > post Turbine-2.2, there have been some accusations of doing this
> > > > > > because of "political reasons". As I was not really
> > > > > involved in the FM
> > > > > > stuff or its removal, I'm trying to collect opinions from
> > > > > the Turbine
> > > > > > users about getting FM support back into Turbine. However, if
> > > > > > noone
> > > > > > wants to use it, it wouldn't make much sense and the change
> > > > > itself is
> > > > > > (IMHO) quite a major one to support FM really good.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Jonathan, some technical information (which you as a
> > > > > non-Turbine guy
> > > > > > might not have seen yet): Unfortunately the
> > > o.a.velocity.Context
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > buried pretty deep in the Turbine code (this is legacy of
> > > > > the original
> > > > > > turbine developers). So we will have to replace this in every
> > > > > > place
> > > > > > with an Adapter class with plugs either onto the Velocity
> > > > > Context or a
> > > > > > similar class in every other view solution (FreeMarker, WebMacro
> > > > > > etc.).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Doing so, it would be necessary for all of our users to
> > > change the
> > > > > > imports in their self-written classes (Action, Screen),
> > > because the
> > > > > > Context is part of the signature of the methods which are
> > > > > overloaded
> > > > > > by user classes.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If we don't do this but just 'bolt FM support on' by using
> > > > > different
> > > > > > classes, there wouldn't be much won, because people would still
> > > > > > use
> > > > > > VelocityScreen, VelocityPage etc. just as in all the
> > > example code
> > > > > > around and the FM code would start to rot (again). I don't
> > > > > want this,
> > > > > > because it wouldn't buy much for the Turbine users. So we
> > > > > would need
> > > > > > some major core changes to allow developers to simply
> > > switch views
> > > > > > without having to rewrite all of their classes later.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If we want to have engine-independent view support which is
> > > > > equal for
> > > > > > all templating solutions (and not heavily Velocity based as the
> > > > > > current view is, which is one of the reasons why noone
> > > > > really uses FM
> > > > > > and/or WebMacro with Turbine and the code started to
> > > rot), we will
> > > > > > have to make this (major) change. This is something that
> > > > > affects all
> > > > > > of our users and we will listen to them.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >Is anybody missing any of those features?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Please send opinions to this list. Turbine 2.3 is pretty much in
> > > > > > feature-freeze state and I want to put out an RC until the
> > > > > end of next
> > > > > > week (Colin, don't worry, your Intake changes will be in
> > > > > :-) ) and I'm
> > > > > > already starting to collect ideas for 2.4-dev. However,
> > > > > moving to the
> > > > > > pipeline and towards Avalon will (for me) stay top priority.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Regards
> > > > > > Henning
> > > > > --
> > > > > Bill <bh...@collaborativefusion.com>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > -
> > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > > turbine-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> > > > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > > turbine-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: turbine-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> > > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > > turbine-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
> > > --
> > > Bill <bh...@collaborativefusion.com>
> > >
> > >
> > >
--
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH hps@intermeta.de
Am Schwabachgrund 22 Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0 info@intermeta.de
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20
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Re: Decimal Number support
Posted by "Henning P. Schmiedehausen" <hp...@intermeta.de>.
"Colin Chalmers" <co...@maxware.nl> writes:
>"We are the only three active developers on the project."
No, Bill sent the message as a personal mail to Eric, Quinton and me and
I took the liberty to Cc my answer to turbine-dev so that all the other
people here get some coverage.
Regards
Henning
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Henning Schmiedehausen [mailto:hps@intermeta.de]
>Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 3:13 PM
>To: Bill
>Cc: Quinton McCombs; Eric Pugh; Turbine Developers List
>Subject: RE: Decimal Number support
>I hope that noone will ever regret to get involved with turbine
>development. :-)
>How can you help? Well, easiest thing would be to ask yourself "which
>part of Turbine hurts me most". I'm sure that every turbine developer
>would come up with a different part. :-)
>If you're somehow seasoned with the maven development tool, one of the
>things that we really could need for the 2.3 release would be a simple,
>skeletal build environment with some preset configuration files for
>turbine, log4j and torque, and a simple way to generate a project.xml
>file for "your new turbine project". The current tdk is simply to
>cumbersome and aged to really work well. I admire the work that Martin
>did to get a 2.2 TDK out but with maven around we might get a simpler,
>better working and easier to understand development environment from
>maven and a few tools.
>So this would be a really cool place to work on. I can send you some
>demo apps that I threw together for demonstrating various aspects of
>Turbine (you'll find links in the -dev archive, else I can send them to
>you) and you would have to put together some build scripts.
>What platform do you normally work on? Windows or Unix/Linux? As far as
>I can see, we could really need some more people testing the HEAD on
>Windows.
> Regards
> Henning
>On Wed, 2003-06-18 at 22:19, Bill wrote:
>> Ok, I'm gonna regret this...but how can I help at this point? :)
>>
>> I dont have a ton of time, but what time I do have, I'd be more than
>> willing to give.
>>
>> I'm probably not nearly as savvy a java coder as the three of you, but
>> consider me at your service if I can speed things along.
>>
>> -b
>>
>> On Wed, 2003-06-18 at 15:05, Quinton McCombs wrote:
>> > I don't recall that discussion although I have only been active on the
>> > lists for about 8 - 9 months. I do know that the development of Turbine
>> > is not only for support releases. Turbine 2.3 has been the continuation
>> > of clean up and bug fixes. There have been very few new features added.
>> >
>> > Turbine 2.4 should should add Avalonization and a backport pipeline
>> > functionality from Turbine 3. Both of these changes are geared to give
>> > the user much greater flexibility in extending the product while at the
>> > same time reducing the interdependencies between the various services.
>> >
>> > With the release of 2.4, I think that you will see that it is much
>> > easier to change views and persistence layers. You will also be able to
>> > use components from other projects in Turbine. For example, if you want
>> > to use the quartz scheduler, Hibernate, or a few components from the
>> > Plexus/Summit project, they should work without a problem.
>> >
>> > Turbine is not dead. It is moving rather slowly though. Henning has
>> > been committing 90% of all of the changes lately. I have been unable to
>> > work on the project for a little over a month now. Eric mainly focuses
>> > of his new configuration stuff and unit testing. We are the only three
>> > active developers on the project.
>> >
>> >
>> > --------------------------------------------
>> > Quinton McCombs
>> > NequalsOne - HealthCare marketing tools
>> > mailto:qmccombs@NequalsOne.com
>> > http://www.NequalsOne.com
>> >
>> > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > From: Bill [mailto:bhalpin@collaborativefusion.com]
>> > > Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 1:52 PM
>> > > To: Quinton McCombs
>> > > Subject: RE: Decimal Number support
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > I'm curious...I made that exact point when the original
>> > > announcement was made. The response from the list was no one
>> > > is using or interested in using FM, and that all future
>> > > releases were merely support releases. If Turbine
>> > > development is only support releases at this point and we're
>> > > moving toward Avalon, it doesnt make sense to add features in my mind.
>> > >
>> > > However, I have been stuck with a lot of work on the Business
>> > > side of things in my company and have not been as attentive
>> > > to the list as in the past. Did I miss a change, is this
>> > > project now 'alive' again?
>> > >
>> > > -b
>> > >
>> > > On Wed, 2003-06-18 at 14:31, Quinton McCombs wrote:
>> > > > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > > > From: Bill [mailto:bhalpin@collaborativefusion.com]
>> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 8:15 AM
>> > > > > To: Henning P. Schmiedehausen
>> > > > > Cc: turbine-user
>> > > > > Subject: Re: Decimal Number support
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Henning
>> > > > >
>> > > > > I think working on Freemarker support would be a waste of the
>> > > > > developers valuable time.
>> > > >
>> > > > It would not be a waste of time is people are interested in
>> > > using it.
>> > > >
>> > > > > However, divorcing Turbine from
>> > > > > Velocity to allow more flexibility not only seems like a good
>> > > > > idea, it seems absolutely necessary if the I understand the
>> > > > > path to Avalonization.
>> > > >
>> > > > I agree with you that the flexibility would be a very good thing.
>> > > >
>> > > > Our view architecture is really not very plugable. The problem is
>> > > > that once you start writing your actions and screen classes which
>> > > > accept RunData and Context as parameters, you are become
>> > > tied to the
>> > > > view implementation. This was very much a shortcoming of the core
>> > > > design of Turbine.
>> > > >
>> > > > Hennings idea to create a proxy class to represent the context type
>> > > > object of the underlying view is indeed a good way to solve this
>> > > > problem. It would require deprecating the methods that everyone
>> > > > normally overrides in the screen and action classes. The
>> > > replacement
>> > > > would be virtually the same interface replacing Context
>> > > with the new
>> > > > class.
>> > > >
>> > > > Even if we do not decide to support FreeMarker, I think
>> > > that it would
>> > > > be in our best interests to implement the proxy class for
>> > > the context.
>> > > > Right now, if your view is JSP and you want to switch to
>> > > Velocity or
>> > > > visa-versa, you must modify all of your action and screen classes.
>> > > > Not fun.
>> > > >
>> > > > > -b
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > On Wed, 2003-06-18 at 06:41, Henning P. Schmiedehausen wrote:
>> > > > > > Jonathan Revusky <jo...@revusky.com> writes:
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > >Henning P. Schmiedehausen wrote:
>> > > > > > >> Hi,
>> > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > >> is anyone of you needing or missing FreeMarker Support
>> > > > > in Turbine
>> > > > > > >> 2.2?
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > >I believe the question should maybe be rephrased:
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > >Is any one of you needing or missing decimal number support in
>> > > > > > >Velocity?
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Ok,
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Folks, is anyone of you missing <insert your feature
>> > > here that FM
>> > > > > > supports and Velocity does not> from the View portion
>> > > of Turbine?
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > You will find a feature complete list on
>> > > > > http://www.freemarker.org for
>> > > > > > FreeMarker and on http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity
>> > > for Velocity.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > If yes, would you consider a switch from Velocity to
>> > > FreeMarker as
>> > > > > > View for Turbine or would you get a pull tool to support
>> > > > > this feature?
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > The reason for this (and Jonathans' response): On the
>> > > > > Velocity lists,
>> > > > > > there has been some rumbling about the current
>> > > development state
>> > > > > > of
>> > > > > > Velocity and talking about alternatives to it. As we
>> > > (Turbine) did
>> > > > > > remove the (quite aged and not actively maintained)
>> > > > > FreeMarker support
>> > > > > > post Turbine-2.2, there have been some accusations of doing this
>> > > > > > because of "political reasons". As I was not really
>> > > > > involved in the FM
>> > > > > > stuff or its removal, I'm trying to collect opinions from
>> > > > > the Turbine
>> > > > > > users about getting FM support back into Turbine. However, if
>> > > > > > noone
>> > > > > > wants to use it, it wouldn't make much sense and the change
>> > > > > itself is
>> > > > > > (IMHO) quite a major one to support FM really good.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Jonathan, some technical information (which you as a
>> > > > > non-Turbine guy
>> > > > > > might not have seen yet): Unfortunately the
>> > > o.a.velocity.Context
>> > > > > > is
>> > > > > > buried pretty deep in the Turbine code (this is legacy of
>> > > > > the original
>> > > > > > turbine developers). So we will have to replace this in every
>> > > > > > place
>> > > > > > with an Adapter class with plugs either onto the Velocity
>> > > > > Context or a
>> > > > > > similar class in every other view solution (FreeMarker, WebMacro
>> > > > > > etc.).
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Doing so, it would be necessary for all of our users to
>> > > change the
>> > > > > > imports in their self-written classes (Action, Screen),
>> > > because the
>> > > > > > Context is part of the signature of the methods which are
>> > > > > overloaded
>> > > > > > by user classes.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > If we don't do this but just 'bolt FM support on' by using
>> > > > > different
>> > > > > > classes, there wouldn't be much won, because people would still
>> > > > > > use
>> > > > > > VelocityScreen, VelocityPage etc. just as in all the
>> > > example code
>> > > > > > around and the FM code would start to rot (again). I don't
>> > > > > want this,
>> > > > > > because it wouldn't buy much for the Turbine users. So we
>> > > > > would need
>> > > > > > some major core changes to allow developers to simply
>> > > switch views
>> > > > > > without having to rewrite all of their classes later.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > If we want to have engine-independent view support which is
>> > > > > equal for
>> > > > > > all templating solutions (and not heavily Velocity based as the
>> > > > > > current view is, which is one of the reasons why noone
>> > > > > really uses FM
>> > > > > > and/or WebMacro with Turbine and the code started to
>> > > rot), we will
>> > > > > > have to make this (major) change. This is something that
>> > > > > affects all
>> > > > > > of our users and we will listen to them.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > >Is anybody missing any of those features?
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Please send opinions to this list. Turbine 2.3 is pretty much in
>> > > > > > feature-freeze state and I want to put out an RC until the
>> > > > > end of next
>> > > > > > week (Colin, don't worry, your Intake changes will be in
>> > > > > :-) ) and I'm
>> > > > > > already starting to collect ideas for 2.4-dev. However,
>> > > > > moving to the
>> > > > > > pipeline and towards Avalon will (for me) stay top priority.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Regards
>> > > > > > Henning
>> > > > > --
>> > > > > Bill <bh...@collaborativefusion.com>
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > --------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > > > > -
>> > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
>> > > turbine-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
>> > > > > For additional commands, e-mail:
>> > > turbine-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: turbine-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
>> > > > For additional commands, e-mail:
>> > > turbine-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
>> > > --
>> > > Bill <bh...@collaborativefusion.com>
>> > >
>> > >
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