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Posted to dev@aries.apache.org by "Alan D. Cabrera" <li...@toolazydogs.com> on 2009/10/02 07:53:22 UTC
Running TCKs on our code
How is this going to be done?
Regards,
Alan
Re: Running TCKs on our code
Posted by Graham Charters <gc...@googlemail.com>.
FYI, the modernization did happen and I think that has helped a lot in
simplifying the running and writing of the compliance tests. I agree,
that if it's too painful we shouldn't do it, but if it's not, then I
think there's a lot of value in running them against the code and
understanding whether or not we pass. Some of the Compliance Test
suites are pretty comprehensive and would help with test coverage.
Regards, Graham.
2009/10/2 Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>:
> On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 2:38 PM, Guillaume Nodet <gn...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Good question. AFAIK, that's the same problem than with specs and TCK
>> are only available to members but I may be wrong.
>> I'm sure David has the answer ...
>
> I am not sure about the TCK for EEG specs, but the Core+Compendium TCK
> was a PITA to use and required a fair amount of 'patience', since the
> 'deliverable' is bundled with the RI in the test rig. When I left the
> Alliance, there were some talks about modernizing the TCK rig, but I
> have no info if this has happened or not.
>
> What I am trying to say; "Running the TCK at ASF" may sound simple,
> but I think it is not, and better be left for the interested
> individuals to do so. And Certification is (IIUIC) not required unless
> we want to say it is "Certified Implementation of ..."
>
> Cheers
> --
> Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer
> http://www.qi4j.org - New Energy for Java
>
> I live here; http://tinyurl.com/2qq9er
> I work here; http://tinyurl.com/2ymelc
> I relax here; http://tinyurl.com/2cgsug
>
Re: Running TCKs on our code
Posted by Niklas Gustavsson <ni...@protocol7.com>.
On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 3:35 PM, Alan D. Cabrera <li...@toolazydogs.com> wrote:
> On Oct 2, 2009, at 2:36 AM, Niclas Hedhman wrote:
>> What I am trying to say; "Running the TCK at ASF" may sound simple,
>> but I think it is not, and better be left for the interested
>> individuals to do so. And Certification is (IIUIC) not required unless
>> we want to say it is "Certified Implementation of ..."
>
> In my opinion we definitely want to certify our stuff.
+1, I'm also happy to put some (or maybe a lot) cycles into getting it
working, given we get access to it of course.
/niklas
Re: Running TCKs on our code
Posted by "Alan D. Cabrera" <li...@toolazydogs.com>.
On Oct 2, 2009, at 2:36 AM, Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 2:38 PM, Guillaume Nodet <gn...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>> Good question. AFAIK, that's the same problem than with specs and TCK
>> are only available to members but I may be wrong.
>> I'm sure David has the answer ...
>
> I am not sure about the TCK for EEG specs, but the Core+Compendium TCK
> was a PITA to use and required a fair amount of 'patience', since the
> 'deliverable' is bundled with the RI in the test rig. When I left the
> Alliance, there were some talks about modernizing the TCK rig, but I
> have no info if this has happened or not.
My experience w/ the Sun's JEE TCKs is no better. I think that it's
part of the fundamental programmer condition. :)
> What I am trying to say; "Running the TCK at ASF" may sound simple,
> but I think it is not, and better be left for the interested
> individuals to do so. And Certification is (IIUIC) not required unless
> we want to say it is "Certified Implementation of ..."
In my opinion we definitely want to certify our stuff.
Regards,
Alan
Re: Running TCKs on our code
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 2:38 PM, Guillaume Nodet <gn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Good question. AFAIK, that's the same problem than with specs and TCK
> are only available to members but I may be wrong.
> I'm sure David has the answer ...
I am not sure about the TCK for EEG specs, but the Core+Compendium TCK
was a PITA to use and required a fair amount of 'patience', since the
'deliverable' is bundled with the RI in the test rig. When I left the
Alliance, there were some talks about modernizing the TCK rig, but I
have no info if this has happened or not.
What I am trying to say; "Running the TCK at ASF" may sound simple,
but I think it is not, and better be left for the interested
individuals to do so. And Certification is (IIUIC) not required unless
we want to say it is "Certified Implementation of ..."
Cheers
--
Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer
http://www.qi4j.org - New Energy for Java
I live here; http://tinyurl.com/2qq9er
I work here; http://tinyurl.com/2ymelc
I relax here; http://tinyurl.com/2cgsug
Re: Running TCKs on our code
Posted by "Alan D. Cabrera" <li...@toolazydogs.com>.
On Oct 2, 2009, at 7:35 AM, Guillaume Nodet wrote:
> There's no list in Felix. AFAIK, there's no open discussion about
> discussing TCK issues. If there are such discussions, those are done
> using back channels.
Yeah, this is what I wanted to avoid. I wanted a channel where
there's a record for others to review.
> Is there a requirement from the OSGi Alliance to sign a NDA for
> discussing TCK issues ? Non OSGi members can't have access to the
> TCK, but this is a different matter.
I doubt it. I'll contact Richard to discuss status and alternatives.
I'll start this up on the jcp-open@a.o list
>
> On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 16:31, Alan D. Cabrera <li...@toolazydogs.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> On Oct 2, 2009, at 7:27 AM, Kevan Miller wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On Oct 2, 2009, at 10:02 AM, Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
>>>
>>>> Luckily there's a couple of Alliance members in this project who
>>>> can
>>>> perform this task until things get sorted out.
>>>>
>>>> In any case we'll need a TCK mailing list; I'll get that done.
>>>> I'm not
>>>> sure how we'll vet membership. David, since you're a chair maybe
>>>> you could
>>>> provide a list?
>>>
>>> There definitely needs to be a discussion if we are going to
>>> create a TCK
>>> mailing list that is not open to the entire community. I doubt
>>> that I would
>>> support such a mailing list...
>>
>> You make a good point. How is this different that what Felix does?
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>> Alan
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Cheers,
> Guillaume Nodet
> ------------------------
> Blog: http://gnodet.blogspot.com/
> ------------------------
> Open Source SOA
> http://fusesource.com
Re: Running TCKs on our code
Posted by Guillaume Nodet <gn...@gmail.com>.
There's no list in Felix. AFAIK, there's no open discussion about
discussing TCK issues. If there are such discussions, those are done
using back channels.
Is there a requirement from the OSGi Alliance to sign a NDA for
discussing TCK issues ? Non OSGi members can't have access to the
TCK, but this is a different matter.
On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 16:31, Alan D. Cabrera <li...@toolazydogs.com> wrote:
>
> On Oct 2, 2009, at 7:27 AM, Kevan Miller wrote:
>
>>
>> On Oct 2, 2009, at 10:02 AM, Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
>>
>>> Luckily there's a couple of Alliance members in this project who can
>>> perform this task until things get sorted out.
>>>
>>> In any case we'll need a TCK mailing list; I'll get that done. I'm not
>>> sure how we'll vet membership. David, since you're a chair maybe you could
>>> provide a list?
>>
>> There definitely needs to be a discussion if we are going to create a TCK
>> mailing list that is not open to the entire community. I doubt that I would
>> support such a mailing list...
>
> You make a good point. How is this different that what Felix does?
>
>
> Regards,
> Alan
>
>
--
Cheers,
Guillaume Nodet
------------------------
Blog: http://gnodet.blogspot.com/
------------------------
Open Source SOA
http://fusesource.com
Re: Running TCKs on our code
Posted by "Alan D. Cabrera" <li...@toolazydogs.com>.
On Oct 2, 2009, at 7:27 AM, Kevan Miller wrote:
>
> On Oct 2, 2009, at 10:02 AM, Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
>
>> Luckily there's a couple of Alliance members in this project who
>> can perform this task until things get sorted out.
>>
>> In any case we'll need a TCK mailing list; I'll get that done. I'm
>> not sure how we'll vet membership. David, since you're a chair
>> maybe you could provide a list?
>
> There definitely needs to be a discussion if we are going to create
> a TCK mailing list that is not open to the entire community. I doubt
> that I would support such a mailing list...
You make a good point. How is this different that what Felix does?
Regards,
Alan
Re: Running TCKs on our code
Posted by Kevan Miller <ke...@gmail.com>.
On Oct 2, 2009, at 10:02 AM, Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
> Luckily there's a couple of Alliance members in this project who can
> perform this task until things get sorted out.
>
> In any case we'll need a TCK mailing list; I'll get that done. I'm
> not sure how we'll vet membership. David, since you're a chair
> maybe you could provide a list?
There definitely needs to be a discussion if we are going to create a
TCK mailing list that is not open to the entire community. I doubt
that I would support such a mailing list...
--kevan
Re: Running TCKs on our code
Posted by David Bosschaert <da...@gmail.com>.
2009/10/2 Alan D. Cabrera <li...@toolazydogs.com>
> David, since you're a chair maybe you could provide a list?
>
You mean the list of current members? You can find that here:
http://www.osgi.org/About/Members
David
Re: Running TCKs on our code
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
On Sat, Oct 3, 2009 at 5:00 AM, Ian Robinson <ia...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> My understanding from speaking to Dan Bandera (IBM's member of the OSGi BoD
> ) is that the OSGi Alliance BoD recognize that qualified not-for-profit
> organizations, such as ASF, have a need for OSGi Compliance Tests at
> no-charge, as evidenced by the Alliance's JSR 291 TCK license ( see:
> http://www.osgi.org/JSR291/TCK#nonprofitlicense ). I understand the Alliance
> has work in-progress now that will provide the OSGi Compliance Tests (which
> are undergoing OSGi member approval now) for the newly approved and
> published OSGi Service Platform Release 4 Version 4.2 Specifications under a
> similar license in the near future. If that license turns out to be
> acceptable to the ASF then we should be able to evolve to a position where
> we won't need a special mailing list for discussing finalized OSGi CTs.
I think ASF can accept fairly restrictive TCK usage licenses, as long as;
* No restrictions are placed on the implementation under test, above
and beyond the Apache License.
* Downstream users that uses an unmodified version of the Apache
license inherit the 'FULLY COMPLIANT" (unless proven otherwise)
wording in the OSGi agreements.
Please not that there is a difference in language from the Alliance
between "FULLY COMPLIANT" and "CERTIFIED", where the former is
basically "self-certification", such as what has been happening at
Felix. IMHO, such is enough for ASF, and if someone thinks that there
is a market for "OSGi Alliance Certified", may have a business case to
sell such... but is not something ASF should spend money on.
Cheers
--
Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer
http://www.qi4j.org - New Energy for Java
I live here; http://tinyurl.com/2qq9er
I work here; http://tinyurl.com/2ymelc
I relax here; http://tinyurl.com/2cgsug
Re: Running TCKs on our code
Posted by Ian Robinson <ia...@googlemail.com>.
My understanding from speaking to Dan Bandera (IBM's member of the OSGi
BoD ) is that the OSGi Alliance BoD recognize that qualified
not-for-profit organizations, such as ASF, have a need for OSGi
Compliance Tests at no-charge, as evidenced by the Alliance's JSR 291
TCK license ( see: http://www.osgi.org/JSR291/TCK#nonprofitlicense ). I
understand the Alliance has work in-progress now that will provide the
OSGi Compliance Tests (which are undergoing OSGi member approval now)
for the newly approved and published OSGi Service Platform Release 4
Version 4.2 Specifications under a similar license in the near future.
If that license turns out to be acceptable to the ASF then we should be
able to evolve to a position where we won't need a special mailing list
for discussing finalized OSGi CTs.
Ian
Kevan Miller wrote:
>
> On Oct 2, 2009, at 10:27 AM, Jeremy Hughes wrote:
>
>> 2009/10/2 Alan D. Cabrera <li...@toolazydogs.com>:
>>> Luckily there's a couple of Alliance members in this project who can
>>> perform
>>> this task until things get sorted out.
>>>
>>> In any case we'll need a TCK mailing list; I'll get that done. I'm
>>> not sure
>>> how we'll vet membership. David, since you're a chair maybe you could
>>> provide a list?
>>
>> Is there a precedent for a TCK mailing list on other Apache projects?
>> What are the rules for entry? What gets discussed there that can't be
>> discussed on the dev@ list? I just want to be clear on what we're
>> talking about.
>
> Hi Jeremy,
> Yes. There are TCK-specific mailing lists and TCK-specific SVN trees
> within Apache. Access is limited to Apache committers who have signed
> the following NDA -- http://www.apache.org/jcp/ApacheNDA.pdf
>
> TCK materials must be protected and kept private. Beyond PASS and
> FAIL, there are limits on detailed discussions of the tests on public
> mailing lists. Any specific discussions occur on the private TCK
> mailing list.
>
>>
>> I'm guessing the purpose of a TCK mailing list would be to discuss
>> everything around running OSGi Compliance Tests, since I believe the
>> OSGi Alliance only allows its members to download (maybe there are
>> other levels of OSGi affiliation that would allow this too I don't
>> know).
>>
>> What do other Apache projects do in this situation? Is there guidance
>> or are we breaking new ground (in particular with the OSGi). Hasn't
>> Felix come up against this before? What happens there?
>
> It sounds like the Felix "project" is not running TCK tests. Rather,
> "individuals" (who are also members of the Alliance) are running TCK
> tests on the Felix code.
>
> --kevan
>
>
>
Re: Running TCKs on our code
Posted by Kevan Miller <ke...@gmail.com>.
On Oct 2, 2009, at 10:27 AM, Jeremy Hughes wrote:
> 2009/10/2 Alan D. Cabrera <li...@toolazydogs.com>:
>> Luckily there's a couple of Alliance members in this project who
>> can perform
>> this task until things get sorted out.
>>
>> In any case we'll need a TCK mailing list; I'll get that done. I'm
>> not sure
>> how we'll vet membership. David, since you're a chair maybe you
>> could
>> provide a list?
>
> Is there a precedent for a TCK mailing list on other Apache projects?
> What are the rules for entry? What gets discussed there that can't be
> discussed on the dev@ list? I just want to be clear on what we're
> talking about.
Hi Jeremy,
Yes. There are TCK-specific mailing lists and TCK-specific SVN trees
within Apache. Access is limited to Apache committers who have signed
the following NDA -- http://www.apache.org/jcp/ApacheNDA.pdf
TCK materials must be protected and kept private. Beyond PASS and
FAIL, there are limits on detailed discussions of the tests on public
mailing lists. Any specific discussions occur on the private TCK
mailing list.
>
> I'm guessing the purpose of a TCK mailing list would be to discuss
> everything around running OSGi Compliance Tests, since I believe the
> OSGi Alliance only allows its members to download (maybe there are
> other levels of OSGi affiliation that would allow this too I don't
> know).
>
> What do other Apache projects do in this situation? Is there guidance
> or are we breaking new ground (in particular with the OSGi). Hasn't
> Felix come up against this before? What happens there?
It sounds like the Felix "project" is not running TCK tests. Rather,
"individuals" (who are also members of the Alliance) are running TCK
tests on the Felix code.
--kevan
Re: Running TCKs on our code
Posted by Jeremy Hughes <hu...@apache.org>.
2009/10/2 Alan D. Cabrera <li...@toolazydogs.com>:
> Luckily there's a couple of Alliance members in this project who can perform
> this task until things get sorted out.
>
> In any case we'll need a TCK mailing list; I'll get that done. I'm not sure
> how we'll vet membership. David, since you're a chair maybe you could
> provide a list?
Is there a precedent for a TCK mailing list on other Apache projects?
What are the rules for entry? What gets discussed there that can't be
discussed on the dev@ list? I just want to be clear on what we're
talking about.
I'm guessing the purpose of a TCK mailing list would be to discuss
everything around running OSGi Compliance Tests, since I believe the
OSGi Alliance only allows its members to download (maybe there are
other levels of OSGi affiliation that would allow this too I don't
know).
What do other Apache projects do in this situation? Is there guidance
or are we breaking new ground (in particular with the OSGi). Hasn't
Felix come up against this before? What happens there?
Thanks,
Jeremy
Re: Running TCKs on our code
Posted by "Alan D. Cabrera" <li...@toolazydogs.com>.
Luckily there's a couple of Alliance members in this project who can
perform this task until things get sorted out.
In any case we'll need a TCK mailing list; I'll get that done. I'm
not sure how we'll vet membership. David, since you're a chair maybe
you could provide a list?
Regards,
Alan
On Oct 2, 2009, at 2:32 AM, David Bosschaert wrote:
> See here how it's done for Felix:
> http://www.nabble.com/Re%3A-How-to-people-run-TCKs---p25712785.html
> Richard is working with the OSGi Alliance to get TCK's available for
> Apache
> committers.
>
> Best regards,
>
> David
>
> 2009/10/2 Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>
>
>> 2009/10/2 Guillaume Nodet <gn...@gmail.com>:
>>> Yeah, I think we should really try to have the ASF being a full
>>> member
>>> of the OSGi Alliance ...
>>
>> FWIW, see recent discussions on jcp-open:
>> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/www-jcp-open/200908.mbox/browser
>>
>> -Bertrand
>>
Re: Running TCKs on our code
Posted by David Bosschaert <da...@gmail.com>.
See here how it's done for Felix:
http://www.nabble.com/Re%3A-How-to-people-run-TCKs---p25712785.html
Richard is working with the OSGi Alliance to get TCK's available for Apache
committers.
Best regards,
David
2009/10/2 Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>
> 2009/10/2 Guillaume Nodet <gn...@gmail.com>:
> > Yeah, I think we should really try to have the ASF being a full member
> > of the OSGi Alliance ...
>
> FWIW, see recent discussions on jcp-open:
> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/www-jcp-open/200908.mbox/browser
>
> -Bertrand
>
Re: Running TCKs on our code
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
2009/10/2 Guillaume Nodet <gn...@gmail.com>:
> Yeah, I think we should really try to have the ASF being a full member
> of the OSGi Alliance ...
FWIW, see recent discussions on jcp-open:
http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/www-jcp-open/200908.mbox/browser
-Bertrand
Re: Running TCKs on our code
Posted by Guillaume Nodet <gn...@gmail.com>.
Yeah, I think we should really try to have the ASF being a full member
of the OSGi Alliance ...
On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 10:31, Graham Charters <gc...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> I just did a quick search and found the following
> http://www.osgi.org/Specifications/Certification which states,
> "Official compliance tests are available for a fee to OSGi members
> only" :-(
>
> I wonder what our options might be, given it would be very useful to
> be able to do this? I guess commiters who are also alliance members
> might be able to, but preferably there'd be some way for the ASF to be
> licensed to run them?
>
>
> 2009/10/2 Guillaume Nodet <gn...@gmail.com>:
>> Good question. AFAIK, that's the same problem than with specs and TCK
>> are only available to members but I may be wrong.
>> I'm sure David has the answer ...
>>
>> 2009/10/2 Alan D. Cabrera <li...@toolazydogs.com>:
>>> How is this going to be done?
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Alan
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Cheers,
>> Guillaume Nodet
>> ------------------------
>> Blog: http://gnodet.blogspot.com/
>> ------------------------
>> Open Source SOA
>> http://fusesource.com
>>
>
--
Cheers,
Guillaume Nodet
------------------------
Blog: http://gnodet.blogspot.com/
------------------------
Open Source SOA
http://fusesource.com
Re: Running TCKs on our code
Posted by Graham Charters <gc...@googlemail.com>.
I just did a quick search and found the following
http://www.osgi.org/Specifications/Certification which states,
"Official compliance tests are available for a fee to OSGi members
only" :-(
I wonder what our options might be, given it would be very useful to
be able to do this? I guess commiters who are also alliance members
might be able to, but preferably there'd be some way for the ASF to be
licensed to run them?
2009/10/2 Guillaume Nodet <gn...@gmail.com>:
> Good question. AFAIK, that's the same problem than with specs and TCK
> are only available to members but I may be wrong.
> I'm sure David has the answer ...
>
> 2009/10/2 Alan D. Cabrera <li...@toolazydogs.com>:
>> How is this going to be done?
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>> Alan
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Cheers,
> Guillaume Nodet
> ------------------------
> Blog: http://gnodet.blogspot.com/
> ------------------------
> Open Source SOA
> http://fusesource.com
>
Re: Running TCKs on our code
Posted by Guillaume Nodet <gn...@gmail.com>.
Good question. AFAIK, that's the same problem than with specs and TCK
are only available to members but I may be wrong.
I'm sure David has the answer ...
2009/10/2 Alan D. Cabrera <li...@toolazydogs.com>:
> How is this going to be done?
>
>
> Regards,
> Alan
>
>
--
Cheers,
Guillaume Nodet
------------------------
Blog: http://gnodet.blogspot.com/
------------------------
Open Source SOA
http://fusesource.com