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Posted to users@tomcat.apache.org by Nicholas Katzakis <nk...@ntlworld.com> on 2001/11/10 15:35:07 UTC
Apache people, For god's sake Do something!
Doesn't it dissapoint the people who develop apache/tomcat that this list
gets so much traffic? ALL those people can't be dumb! It must be the
software. Since so many people are having trouble configuring and using it
why don't they consider simplifying the .docs or better yet: Make a GUI
configuration program in java that configures your tomcat/apache with a
simple interface or even better a WIZARD! :) If they don't have the people
or resources then .. ask people to contribute!
Nicholas
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RE: Apache people, For god's sake Do something!
Posted by Gregor Kovaè <gr...@mikropis.si>.
Hi!
I have always wanted to do something for the open source community, but I
could never find the time or the projects were already too big to learn how
to contribute something.
But this program for configuring Tomcat does not sound too hard to do. :)
So please count me it.
You can reach me at gregor.kovac@mikropis.si
Best regards,
Kovi
At 18:06 10.11.2001 +0000, you wrote:
>I am 22 years old Eng Graduate and a novice in Java programming. Because I
>love Servlets/JSP so much I will begin writing a program to configure tomcat
>on my own. I feel that because my programming experience is very little, it
>will be a long and painstaking process, while it would be much easier for a
>more experienced programmer. I will make an effort though.
>
>I take it you prefer if I didn't ask you to participate, right?
>
>After all you have more important things to do with your time, like insult
>people.
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Re: Apache people, For god's sake Do something!
Posted by felix <fe...@crucial-systems.com>.
considering that the settings change quite a bit from release to release and
that there are so many options ( many of them depreciated but still clogging
the documentation), you should not write anything that tries to deal with
that.
it will simply break.
in other words, you are grabbing the wrong end of the cat...
better that the distribution should be cleaned. i'm sure that it was 4.0
attempts to do, and also 3.3 moves in that direction.
it just would be nice to have a clean version of 3.2.3 considering that it
was is specified as the most stable production version.
> From: "Nicholas Katzakis" <nk...@ntlworld.com>
> Reply-To: "Tomcat Users List" <to...@jakarta.apache.org>
> Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 18:06:09 -0000
> To: "Tomcat Users List" <to...@jakarta.apache.org>
> Subject: RE: Apache people, For god's sake Do something!
>
> I am 22 years old Eng Graduate and a novice in Java programming. Because I
> love Servlets/JSP so much I will begin writing a program to configure tomcat
> on my own. I feel that because my programming experience is very little, it
> will be a long and painstaking process, while it would be much easier for a
> more experienced programmer. I will make an effort though.
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RE: Apache people, For god's sake Do something!
Posted by Nicholas Katzakis <nk...@ntlworld.com>.
I am 22 years old Eng Graduate and a novice in Java programming. Because I
love Servlets/JSP so much I will begin writing a program to configure tomcat
on my own. I feel that because my programming experience is very little, it
will be a long and painstaking process, while it would be much easier for a
more experienced programmer. I will make an effort though.
I take it you prefer if I didn't ask you to participate, right?
After all you have more important things to do with your time, like insult
people.
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul DuBois [mailto:paul@snake.net]
Sent: Saturday, 10 November, 2001 17:55
To: Tomcat Users List
Subject: Re: Apache people, For god's sake Do something!
>Doesn't it dissapoint the people who develop apache/tomcat that this list
>gets so much traffic? ALL those people can't be dumb! It must be the
>software. Since so many people are having trouble configuring and using it
>why don't they consider simplifying the .docs or better yet: Make a GUI
>configuration program in java that configures your tomcat/apache with a
>simple interface or even better a WIZARD! :) If they don't have the people
>or resources then .. ask people to contribute!
I take it you prefer they not ask you, though?
After all you have more important things to do with your time, like
complain.
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Re: Apache people, For god's sake Do something!
Posted by Paul DuBois <pa...@snake.net>.
>Doesn't it dissapoint the people who develop apache/tomcat that this list
>gets so much traffic? ALL those people can't be dumb! It must be the
>software. Since so many people are having trouble configuring and using it
>why don't they consider simplifying the .docs or better yet: Make a GUI
>configuration program in java that configures your tomcat/apache with a
>simple interface or even better a WIZARD! :) If they don't have the people
>or resources then .. ask people to contribute!
I take it you prefer they not ask you, though?
After all you have more important things to do with your time, like complain.
>
>Nicholas
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Re: Apache people, For god's sake Do something!
Posted by Jim Crossley <ji...@lads.com>.
"Nicholas Katzakis" <nk...@ntlworld.com> writes:
> Doesn't it dissapoint the people who develop apache/tomcat that this
> list gets so much traffic?
Probably.
> ALL those people can't be dumb!
Agreed.
> It must be the software.
Don't blame the software. Blame the forces it's trying to resolve.
> Since so many people are having trouble configuring and using it why
> don't they consider simplifying the docs or [...] configuration
> [...] If they don't have the people or resources then .. ask people
> to contribute!
Will you please contribute? ;-)
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Re: Apache people, For god's sake Do something!
Posted by Barry White <ba...@charter.net>.
The installation of Tomcat 4.0 is not hard (on Win2k). All you need is JDK
on the box, and the installer does the rest!
Most of the problems I see in this list are about getting Tomcat to work
with another server or Java issues.
I think most people (beginners like me) don't realize in the beginning that
Tomcat IS a server. Once they install Tomcat they think they must get it
working with IIS or Apache right away, which is NOT needed if you are going
to be doing mostly JSP stuff (isn't that why you are using Tomcat?).
Perhaps this is not made as clear as it could be in the documentation. At
the beginning of the Tomcat site it states that "Tomcat is the servlet
container that is used in the official Reference Implementation for the Java
Servlet and JavaServer Pages technologies" which is true, but it also is
(can be) a stand alone web server which needs no other software to serve JSP
and HTML pages.
Perhaps this could be stated on the "Front Page" for those newbies (like me)
who are just starting to use Tomcat.
As for the configuration, I don't think a wizard would be do-able because of
the extream flexibitity of Tomcat (100 questions? I don't think so.).
One suggestion for Windows installation:
During the installation, ask the user if they will be using Tomcat in
stand-alone mode or with an additional server (IIS or Apache) and configure
those servers to work with Tomcat if possible (or point them in the right
direction by showing a readme file or example).
P.S. I think all of the Tomcat developers are doing a great job! I am not
complaining at all... just offering some suggestions.
Barry
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nicholas Katzakis" <nk...@ntlworld.com>
To: "tomcat" <to...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2001 9:35 AM
Subject: Apache people, For god's sake Do something!
> Doesn't it dissapoint the people who develop apache/tomcat that this list
> gets so much traffic? ALL those people can't be dumb! It must be the
> software. Since so many people are having trouble configuring and using it
> why don't they consider simplifying the .docs or better yet: Make a GUI
> configuration program in java that configures your tomcat/apache with a
> simple interface or even better a WIZARD! :) If they don't have the people
> or resources then .. ask people to contribute!
>
> Nicholas
>
>
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>
>
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Re: Apache people, For god's sake Do something!
Posted by raj <ra...@clarologic.com>.
>
>
>A graphical user interface that can do most stuff, with wizards to
>optionally use for setting up "a new webapp" or "new virtual host" or new
>
Install new software on a "windows OS", need a registry entry, dlls all
go to system32! Uh-oh reboot!
Uninstall a piece of sfotware in a "windows OS", the wonderful GUI says
"xyz.dll" will be deleted, are
you sure.
Of course not, goddammit! How can I be sure, so do not delete anything!
So if we place all the deal dll's, end to end, from most people PC we'd
probably get a free trip to the moon
and back (and back again!)
Oh, some one said there is a clever OS which separates out application
and OS binaries/libraries quite neatly
(some fancy name that end with an "IX").
But my mate Bill said, tut tut, thats too difficult to install and
manage. Trust me, my system is "of the stupid, by the
stupid, for the stupid".
Of course, my mate Bill knows best.
Cheers
-raj
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Re: Apache people, For god's sake Do something!
Posted by Endre Stølsvik <En...@Stolsvik.com>.
On Sat, 10 Nov 2001, Graham Leggett wrote:
| (And please don't fill the thing with wizards, rather have a default
| config that works out the box in a basic config - wizards are great for
| beginners, but the minute you stop being a beginner the wizards just get
| in your way).
A graphical user interface that can do most stuff, with wizards to
optionally use for setting up "a new webapp" or "new virtual host" or new
whatever is a neat thing. I am a pretty long time unix user, and I love
text configuration files. But I hate roaming around in those files, not
knowing where to begin or end. There's just so many of them! I forget
which stupid files I used "last time", because it is such a pretty long
time inbetween each time I have to do that digging (and I loath doing it,
so I put it off as long as possible!).
That I like from the Windows world. Just click on that computer icon, or
that whatever-icon, and you're rockin'. But of course; windows suck if you
actually want to do some "real stuff". Mostly because of their annoying
binary configuration files, and of course because of their plainly idiotic
ways of letting the webserver be a part of the kernel!!
Anyway; both Apache Httpd and Tomcat could do with some serious GUI
snacks, made by the core apache people, and not as an thrid-party addon.
Apache _is_ losing out to IIS (at least that's what I've understood
lately), and it's _just_ because of the non-GUI stuff. Apache is approx.
1000000 times better than IIS, but you need a Ph.D to set the shit up...
No wonder people use the dangerous "Bugger Overflow" IIS instead, just to
not start up _Notepad_ to configure the webserver or to change that little
setting right there..
--
Mvh,
Endre
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Re: Apache people, For god's sake Do something!
Posted by David Wall <dw...@Yozons.com>.
It just isn't that hard to get installed.
David
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Re: Apache people, For god's sake Do something!
Posted by felix <fe...@crucial-systems.com>.
> From: "Martin van den Bemt" <ma...@isallineed.org>
> Help and fixing issues are done at a very high speed rate on tomcat, I
> wouldn't bet my money on getting this with commercial companies!
> The beautiful way of open source is indeed, as said by Graham, if it itches,
> scratch it (yourself..)
>
> Mvgr,
> Martin
but another failure of commercial software is that the biz people drive the
development pace so that too many features get added at the cost of
stability and purity of concept.
and so we would hope that open source developers didn't also get on that
track, and spent more time getting a pure, simple and immediately
understandable api/config.
this is very common in web-shops. crap code because its all about what the
manager sees coming out the other end.
in the long run everybody pays for it: i have to waste too long fixing a
crap implementation and its more hours for everyone.
tomcat's config problems have wasted thousands and thousands of development
dollars/hours that could have been spent fixing the problem in the first
place.
apologies to tomcat developers, i really don't want to rag on you. if i
wasn't developing several other systems/projects, i would get further
involved. i might in the future.
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RE: Apache people, For god's sake Do something!
Posted by Martin van den Bemt <ma...@isallineed.org>.
When following the instructions of setting some environment variables, it
works out of the box. The problem that people are facing is connecting
tomcat with a webserver. The first and most important goal however is get
the product of tomcat / catalina istelf in perfect shape, so (at least for
me) it is perfectly understandable that the connectors are a bit running
behind with the releases. Building a connector from source is not always
that easy, since people can have various installs/builds (at least for
apache), other problems, os issues, library issues, etc,etc..
If you want to use the latest stuff, you actually have to do some
researching AND reading to get it working...
Help and fixing issues are done at a very high speed rate on tomcat, I
wouldn't bet my money on getting this with commercial companies!
The beautiful way of open source is indeed, as said by Graham, if it itches,
scratch it (yourself..)
Mvgr,
Martin
> -----Original Message-----
> From: minfrin [mailto:minfrin]On Behalf Of Graham Leggett
> Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2001 4:36 PM
> To: Tomcat Users List
> Subject: Re: Apache people, For god's sake Do something!
>
>
> Nicholas Katzakis wrote:
>
> > Doesn't it dissapoint the people who develop apache/tomcat that
> this list
> > gets so much traffic? ALL those people can't be dumb! It must be the
> > software.
>
> Yeah, the software is pretty difficult to configure (from recent
> firsthand experience) but at the end of the day if it's config sucks, do
> something about it.
>
> This is how open source gets improved - if there is enough of an itch,
> someone will scratch it.
>
> (And please don't fill the thing with wizards, rather have a default
> config that works out the box in a basic config - wizards are great for
> beginners, but the minute you stop being a beginner the wizards just get
> in your way).
>
> Regards,
> Graham
> --
> -----------------------------------------
> minfrin@sharp.fm "There's a moon
> over Bourbon Street
> tonight..."
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Re: Apache people, For god's sake Do something!
Posted by Graham Leggett <mi...@sharp.fm>.
Nicholas Katzakis wrote:
> Doesn't it dissapoint the people who develop apache/tomcat that this list
> gets so much traffic? ALL those people can't be dumb! It must be the
> software.
Yeah, the software is pretty difficult to configure (from recent
firsthand experience) but at the end of the day if it's config sucks, do
something about it.
This is how open source gets improved - if there is enough of an itch,
someone will scratch it.
(And please don't fill the thing with wizards, rather have a default
config that works out the box in a basic config - wizards are great for
beginners, but the minute you stop being a beginner the wizards just get
in your way).
Regards,
Graham
--
-----------------------------------------
minfrin@sharp.fm "There's a moon
over Bourbon Street
tonight..."
Re: Apache people, For god's sake Do something!
Posted by Paul DuBois <pa...@snake.net>.
>On Sun, 11 Nov 2001 00:31:36 +0100
>"Peter Romianowski" <pe...@antaramusic.de> wrote:
>
>> I kept on asking myself, if I should comment on this.
>>
>> I think Craig made the basic thing clear: It's volunteers work!
>
> People seem to hold this fact up to excuse shody workmanship; it's no
>excuse! By shody, I mean lacking authorative, clear, and concise
>documentation included. For beta's this lack of many things is to be
>expected, but when something is 'Production' quality, it is unacceptable
>under any circumstance, regardless of cost!
You're absolutely right. That's why everyone's excitedly
waiting to hear your schedule for the time you'll be devoting
to addressing these issues.
Oh. You're very busy and have little time to spend on it?
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Re: Apache people, For god's sake Do something!
Posted by Steve Gass <sg...@gass.com>.
Timothy Reaves wrote:
> > I think Craig made the basic thing clear: It's volunteers work!
>
> People seem to hold this fact up to excuse shody workmanship; it's no
> excuse! By shody, I mean lacking authorative, clear, and concise
> documentation included. For beta's this lack of many things is to be
> expected, but when something is 'Production' quality, it is unacceptable
> under any circumstance, regardless of cost!
I'm curious - is Tomcat your first experience with open source software?
Steve
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Re: Apache people, For god's sake Do something!
Posted by David Wall <dw...@Yozons.com>.
> But at the end of the
> day open source means you have the power to do something about the
> shoddy workmanship - go in there are fix it.
Absolutely. When Apache SOAP 2.2 presented a bug in their SSL through proxy
server logic, it was very powerful that I could get into the code and fix
it. It would have been a show stopper otherwise, and commercial products
ship with similar issues all the time (which I can attest to all the time as
a VisualCafe sufferer), but the fix is not to be had in any reasonable
timeframe.
David
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Re: Apache people, For god's sake Do something!
Posted by Graham Leggett <mi...@sharp.fm>.
Timothy Reaves wrote:
> People seem to hold this fact up to excuse shody workmanship; it's no
> excuse! By shody, I mean lacking authorative, clear, and concise
> documentation included. For beta's this lack of many things is to be
> expected, but when something is 'Production' quality, it is unacceptable
> under any circumstance, regardless of cost!
Yep, shoddy workmanship does suck - and in my experience over the years
I've seen a whole bunch of it, mostly in commercial projects where
deadlines are more important than code quality. But at the end of the
day open source means you have the power to do something about the
shoddy workmanship - go in there are fix it.
Regards,
Graham
--
-----------------------------------------
minfrin@sharp.fm "There's a moon
over Bourbon Street
tonight..."
Re: Apache people, For god's sake Do something!
Posted by Timothy Reaves <tr...@silverfields.com>.
On Sun, 11 Nov 2001 00:31:36 +0100
"Peter Romianowski" <pe...@antaramusic.de> wrote:
> I kept on asking myself, if I should comment on this.
>
> I think Craig made the basic thing clear: It's volunteers work!
People seem to hold this fact up to excuse shody workmanship; it's no
excuse! By shody, I mean lacking authorative, clear, and concise
documentation included. For beta's this lack of many things is to be
expected, but when something is 'Production' quality, it is unacceptable
under any circumstance, regardless of cost!
>
> Another point is that after reading the list for some month, I must say
the
> the "quality of questions" really decreased (the list was "better"
during
> the betas). I'm totally tired of reading "how do I change to port 80" at
> least 3 times a week. And I admire the people like Craig answering it
over
> and over again. Yes, you could say the docs are not that good - but
> nevertheless RTFM and huge Mailinglist-archive first.
It is unfortunate that ignorant people refuse to search archives, and it
is admarable that people still answer those questions. What is most
unfortunate is when genuine questions are asked, after careful search of
the archive, and those questions don't get a single response. The
situation I am in is that way. I searched the archives, found the issue I
was having was not isolated to me, and found only one response that
offered an answer (which wasn't), although I saw many responses along the
lines of 'I'm having the same problem.'
--snip--
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RE: Apache people, For god's sake Do something!
Posted by Peter Romianowski <pe...@antaramusic.de>.
I kept on asking myself, if I should comment on this.
I think Craig made the basic thing clear: It's volunteers work!
Another point is that after reading the list for some month, I must say the
the "quality of questions" really decreased (the list was "better" during
the betas). I'm totally tired of reading "how do I change to port 80" at
least 3 times a week. And I admire the people like Craig answering it over
and over again. Yes, you could say the docs are not that good - but
nevertheless RTFM and huge Mailinglist-archive first.
And I don't think that a graphical interface would solve the "problem". I
think the time would be better spent in improving the docs (yes, I know what
you're thinking - I'll try to contribute...)
If you decide to use open source, you cannot say: "Hey, I want to get all
the advantages like fast development, an active community and the overall
better product - BUT I want other people supporting me like I was paying for
it." And thus not everybody should use open source...
pero
On Sat, 10 Nov 2001, Nicholas Katzakis wrote:
> Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 14:35:07 -0000
> From: Nicholas Katzakis <nk...@ntlworld.com>
> Reply-To: Tomcat Users List <to...@jakarta.apache.org>
> To: tomcat <to...@jakarta.apache.org>
> Subject: Apache people, For god's sake Do something!
>
> If they don't have the people
> or resources then .. ask people to contribute!
>
OK, I will. Hey Nicholas, where's your contribution?
There are no "Apache poeple" in the sense you are talking about -- only
volunteers who work on Apache projects because they want to help make it
better. Better docs are just as important as better code, but submitting
suggested changes (or added stuff) is also better then whining :-).
> Nicholas
>
Craig McClanahan
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Re: Apache people, For god's sake Do something!
Posted by "Craig R. McClanahan" <cr...@apache.org>.
On Sat, 10 Nov 2001, Nicholas Katzakis wrote:
> Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 14:35:07 -0000
> From: Nicholas Katzakis <nk...@ntlworld.com>
> Reply-To: Tomcat Users List <to...@jakarta.apache.org>
> To: tomcat <to...@jakarta.apache.org>
> Subject: Apache people, For god's sake Do something!
>
> If they don't have the people
> or resources then .. ask people to contribute!
>
OK, I will. Hey Nicholas, where's your contribution?
There are no "Apache poeple" in the sense you are talking about -- only
volunteers who work on Apache projects because they want to help make it
better. Better docs are just as important as better code, but submitting
suggested changes (or added stuff) is also better then whining :-).
> Nicholas
>
Craig McClanahan
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Re: Apache people, For god's sake Do something!
Posted by David Morsberger <da...@home.com>.
Whoa.
Lets remember that Tomcat is an open source project where people volunteer
their time to enhance the product. The tomcat home page states:
"Tomcat is developed in an open and participatory environment and released
under the Apache Software License. Tomcat is intended to be a collaboration
of the best-of-breed developers from around the world. We invite you to
participate in this open development project. To learn more about getting
involved, click here."
I am sure there are expensive commercial alternatives. I for one do not have
time so I feel I do not have the right to throw stones.
Nicholas, I think that is a great idea. Maybe I can volunteer some of my
time helping you set it up.
David
> From: "Nicholas Katzakis" <nk...@ntlworld.com>
> Reply-To: "Tomcat Users List" <to...@jakarta.apache.org>
> Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 14:35:07 -0000
> To: "tomcat" <to...@jakarta.apache.org>
> Subject: Apache people, For god's sake Do something!
>
> oesn't it dissapoint the people who develop apache/tomcat that this list
> gets so much traffic? ALL those people can't be dumb! It must be the
> software. Since so many people are having trouble configuring and using it
> why don't they consider simplifying the .docs or better yet: Make a GUI
> configuration program in java that configures your tomcat/apache with a
> simple interface or even better a WIZARD! :) If they don't have the people
> or resources then .. ask people to contribute!
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