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Posted to user@struts.apache.org by Greg Hess <gh...@wrappedapps.com> on 2002/07/29 20:10:01 UTC
uncoupling Web Design/Web Development
Hi All,
I have designed a web application that is dependant on a work flow, the user
interface is constructed by Web Designers and the server side is done by Web
Developers. The web designers are now comfortable using the struts tags and
so on but they hate the fact that they have to follow the work flow in order
to see changes on a specific page. They would like to be able to view a page
directly, out side the work flow in order to perform the web design.
I am not sure how I should facilitate this or if I should?
Any comments/suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Greg
Re: uncoupling Web Design/Web Development
Posted by Michael Delamere <ho...@michael-delamere.de>.
I think you´re right. You should hear the conversations that we are having
at work currently. We are in the middle of planing a new project and we are
desperately trying to thnik of every possible thing that could go wrong!
What if at some stage.... or have you thought of that.... !
It´s driving me nuts because I really want it to be a success. The problem
is though that even if we managed to think of every conceivable thing that
could go wrong, we still have to take time and resources into account. I
would love to spend 1 year planning the whole god damn thing (even then I
couldn´t guarantee anything ;-) ) and then create the perfect project.
Dream on.
I must admit though that thanks to frameworks like struts, it becomes
slightly easier because when you discuss the view you say.... yeah...
struts.... and the controller... yeah struts... :-) .
As you may have read in the thread that I started "Architecture advice", the
service layer is driving me slightly nuts because if that isn´t right
then...... it probably means trouble at some point.
I hope I´m not going to get into trouble for misusing this thread with
dreams of a perfect project ;-)! I think you´re right though in saying that
more than two formats may be needed eventually but that´s another story....
(now anyway :-) ).
Regards,
Michael
----- Original Message -----
From: "Craig R. McClanahan" <cr...@apache.org>
To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <st...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 11:14 PM
Subject: Re: uncoupling Web Design/Web Development
>
>
> On Mon, 29 Jul 2002, Michael Delamere wrote:
>
> > Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 23:09:08 +0200
> > From: Michael Delamere <ho...@michael-delamere.de>
> > Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List <st...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > To: Struts Users Mailing List <st...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > Subject: Re: uncoupling Web Design/Web Development
> >
> > I agree entirely! There are many advantages of doing it the way you
are.
> > For us however it would be a big step and the time certainly isn´t
there!
> >
> > Then again, currently there is no need for us to generate so many
differnet
> > types of views at present.
> > WAP and WEB at the most....
> >
>
> You might be amused at one of my personal experiences that caused the
> creatoin of Struts in the first place ...
>
> My job was to take a US-based application and make it available, on the
> web, in Europe. Obviously, using American English wasn't going to cut it,
> so we agreed to start in "just" four languages. Lacking anything like
> Struts, I had to do it the old fashioned way -- four copies of each page
> :-). Clumsy, but maintainable (if only barely).
>
> Maintainable, that is, until four became eight, then twelve, then ... and
> now you know where tags like <bean:message> come from! :-)
>
> The moral of the story -- requirements always change over time, and they
> always seem to get bigger rather than smaller. I wouldn't believe for a
> minute that you will only need two formats now and forever more ... unless
> they kill the project, which is a whole *different* problem :-).
>
> > Michael
>
> Craig
>
>
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Jacob Hookom" <ho...@uwec.edu>
> > To: "'Struts Users Mailing List'" <st...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 10:56 PM
> > Subject: RE: uncoupling Web Design/Web Development
> >
> >
> > > Basically, it was a strict requirement of the system, and this MVC2 is
> > > not implemented throughout the site in this manner, primarily for
> > > reporting features.
> > >
> > > Do the math, either generate 40 jsps that spit out HTML, then another
40
> > > for WML, then another 40 for PDF (120 JSPs), or just have a single set
> > > of 40 JSPs that output XML and then 3 stylesheets. It really depends
on
> > > the application and how strict the design templates are across your
> > > pages. It may not be the best idea if for each XML JSP, you need to
> > > generate a set of 3 stylesheets.
> > >
> > > In addition, we are using the code I wrote that uses XSLTC to compile
> > > the XSL documents for faster transformation which makes this structure
a
> > > lot more viable. You might want to look at cocoon as a much larger
> > > basis of this MVC2 pattern that has its own optimizations.
> > >
> > > Jacob Hookom
> > > Comprehensive Computer Science
> > > University of Wisconsin, Eau Claire
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Michael Delamere [mailto:home@michael-delamere.de]
> > > Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 3:42 PM
> > > To: Struts Users Mailing List
> > > Subject: Re: uncoupling Web Design/Web Development
> > >
> > > I really like your idea but how long did it take for everyone involved
> > > to
> > > adapt to this approach?
> > > Surely it must take some time until efficiency comes back into the
flow
> > > of
> > > things. Then again, I suppose when it does, everything becomes much
> > > easier.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Michael
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Jacob Hookom" <ho...@uwec.edu>
> > > To: "'Struts Users Mailing List'" <st...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > > Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 10:33 PM
> > > Subject: RE: uncoupling Web Design/Web Development
> > >
> > >
> > > > I am working on a big project for an insurance company and we are
> > > doing
> > > > everything in XML/XSLT. That way, the programmers can write JSP's
or
> > > > Servlets that just generate XML data and then depending on who's
> > > making
> > > > the request, it formats the page as WML, PDF, or HTML. That way the
> > > > designers can just come up with stylesheets and the programmers just
> > > > generate straight XML data.
> > > >
> > > > Jacob Hookom
> > > > Comprehensive Computer Science
> > > > University of Wisconsin, Eau Claire
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Michael Delamere [mailto:home@michael-delamere.de]
> > > > Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 1:23 PM
> > > > To: Struts Users Mailing List
> > > > Subject: Re: uncoupling Web Design/Web Development
> > > >
> > > > This may not be ideal but the way we do it is that the designers
give
> > > us
> > > > their static content (html pages) and we feed it into the
> > > jsps/velocity
> > > > templates.
> > > >
> > > > That way we have more control over the dynamic elements in the
webpage
> > > > and
> > > > they can play and fiddle with their html code as much as they like
> > > :-).
> > > >
> > > > Regards Michael
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Greg Hess" <gh...@wrappedapps.com>
> > > > To: "Struts Mail List" <st...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > > > Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 8:10 PM
> > > > Subject: uncoupling Web Design/Web Development
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Hi All,
> > > > >
> > > > > I have designed a web application that is dependant on a work
flow,
> > > > the
> > > > user
> > > > > interface is constructed by Web Designers and the server side is
> > > done
> > > > by
> > > > Web
> > > > > Developers. The web designers are now comfortable using the struts
> > > > tags
> > > > and
> > > > > so on but they hate the fact that they have to follow the work
flow
> > > in
> > > > order
> > > > > to see changes on a specific page. They would like to be able to
> > > view
> > > > a
> > > > page
> > > > > directly, out side the work flow in order to perform the web
design.
> > > > >
> > > > > I am not sure how I should facilitate this or if I should?
> > > > >
> > > > > Any comments/suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > >
> > > > > Greg
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > > > <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > > > <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > > >
> > > > ---
> > > > Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
> > > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > > > Version: 6.0.380 / Virus Database: 213 - Release Date: 7/24/2002
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ---
> > > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> > > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > > > Version: 6.0.380 / Virus Database: 213 - Release Date: 7/24/2002
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > > <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > > <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > > <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > > <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > >
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> > >
> > >
> > > ---
> > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > > Version: 6.0.380 / Virus Database: 213 - Release Date: 7/24/2002
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
<ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > For additional commands, e-mail:
<ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> >
> >
>
>
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<ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
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<ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>
--
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Re: uncoupling Web Design/Web Development
Posted by "Craig R. McClanahan" <cr...@apache.org>.
On Mon, 29 Jul 2002, Michael Delamere wrote:
> Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 23:09:08 +0200
> From: Michael Delamere <ho...@michael-delamere.de>
> Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List <st...@jakarta.apache.org>
> To: Struts Users Mailing List <st...@jakarta.apache.org>
> Subject: Re: uncoupling Web Design/Web Development
>
> I agree entirely! There are many advantages of doing it the way you are.
> For us however it would be a big step and the time certainly isn´t there!
>
> Then again, currently there is no need for us to generate so many differnet
> types of views at present.
> WAP and WEB at the most....
>
You might be amused at one of my personal experiences that caused the
creatoin of Struts in the first place ...
My job was to take a US-based application and make it available, on the
web, in Europe. Obviously, using American English wasn't going to cut it,
so we agreed to start in "just" four languages. Lacking anything like
Struts, I had to do it the old fashioned way -- four copies of each page
:-). Clumsy, but maintainable (if only barely).
Maintainable, that is, until four became eight, then twelve, then ... and
now you know where tags like <bean:message> come from! :-)
The moral of the story -- requirements always change over time, and they
always seem to get bigger rather than smaller. I wouldn't believe for a
minute that you will only need two formats now and forever more ... unless
they kill the project, which is a whole *different* problem :-).
> Michael
Craig
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jacob Hookom" <ho...@uwec.edu>
> To: "'Struts Users Mailing List'" <st...@jakarta.apache.org>
> Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 10:56 PM
> Subject: RE: uncoupling Web Design/Web Development
>
>
> > Basically, it was a strict requirement of the system, and this MVC2 is
> > not implemented throughout the site in this manner, primarily for
> > reporting features.
> >
> > Do the math, either generate 40 jsps that spit out HTML, then another 40
> > for WML, then another 40 for PDF (120 JSPs), or just have a single set
> > of 40 JSPs that output XML and then 3 stylesheets. It really depends on
> > the application and how strict the design templates are across your
> > pages. It may not be the best idea if for each XML JSP, you need to
> > generate a set of 3 stylesheets.
> >
> > In addition, we are using the code I wrote that uses XSLTC to compile
> > the XSL documents for faster transformation which makes this structure a
> > lot more viable. You might want to look at cocoon as a much larger
> > basis of this MVC2 pattern that has its own optimizations.
> >
> > Jacob Hookom
> > Comprehensive Computer Science
> > University of Wisconsin, Eau Claire
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Michael Delamere [mailto:home@michael-delamere.de]
> > Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 3:42 PM
> > To: Struts Users Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: uncoupling Web Design/Web Development
> >
> > I really like your idea but how long did it take for everyone involved
> > to
> > adapt to this approach?
> > Surely it must take some time until efficiency comes back into the flow
> > of
> > things. Then again, I suppose when it does, everything becomes much
> > easier.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Michael
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Jacob Hookom" <ho...@uwec.edu>
> > To: "'Struts Users Mailing List'" <st...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 10:33 PM
> > Subject: RE: uncoupling Web Design/Web Development
> >
> >
> > > I am working on a big project for an insurance company and we are
> > doing
> > > everything in XML/XSLT. That way, the programmers can write JSP's or
> > > Servlets that just generate XML data and then depending on who's
> > making
> > > the request, it formats the page as WML, PDF, or HTML. That way the
> > > designers can just come up with stylesheets and the programmers just
> > > generate straight XML data.
> > >
> > > Jacob Hookom
> > > Comprehensive Computer Science
> > > University of Wisconsin, Eau Claire
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Michael Delamere [mailto:home@michael-delamere.de]
> > > Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 1:23 PM
> > > To: Struts Users Mailing List
> > > Subject: Re: uncoupling Web Design/Web Development
> > >
> > > This may not be ideal but the way we do it is that the designers give
> > us
> > > their static content (html pages) and we feed it into the
> > jsps/velocity
> > > templates.
> > >
> > > That way we have more control over the dynamic elements in the webpage
> > > and
> > > they can play and fiddle with their html code as much as they like
> > :-).
> > >
> > > Regards Michael
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Greg Hess" <gh...@wrappedapps.com>
> > > To: "Struts Mail List" <st...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > > Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 8:10 PM
> > > Subject: uncoupling Web Design/Web Development
> > >
> > >
> > > > Hi All,
> > > >
> > > > I have designed a web application that is dependant on a work flow,
> > > the
> > > user
> > > > interface is constructed by Web Designers and the server side is
> > done
> > > by
> > > Web
> > > > Developers. The web designers are now comfortable using the struts
> > > tags
> > > and
> > > > so on but they hate the fact that they have to follow the work flow
> > in
> > > order
> > > > to see changes on a specific page. They would like to be able to
> > view
> > > a
> > > page
> > > > directly, out side the work flow in order to perform the web design.
> > > >
> > > > I am not sure how I should facilitate this or if I should?
> > > >
> > > > Any comments/suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > >
> > > > Greg
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > > <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > > <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > >
> > > ---
> > > Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
> > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > > Version: 6.0.380 / Virus Database: 213 - Release Date: 7/24/2002
> > >
> > >
> > > ---
> > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > > Version: 6.0.380 / Virus Database: 213 - Release Date: 7/24/2002
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> >
> > ---
> > Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
> > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > Version: 6.0.380 / Virus Database: 213 - Release Date: 7/24/2002
> >
> >
> > ---
> > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > Version: 6.0.380 / Virus Database: 213 - Release Date: 7/24/2002
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > For additional commands, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> >
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>
>
--
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Re: uncoupling Web Design/Web Development
Posted by Michael Delamere <ho...@michael-delamere.de>.
I agree entirely! There are many advantages of doing it the way you are.
For us however it would be a big step and the time certainly isn´t there!
Then again, currently there is no need for us to generate so many differnet
types of views at present.
WAP and WEB at the most....
Michael
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jacob Hookom" <ho...@uwec.edu>
To: "'Struts Users Mailing List'" <st...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 10:56 PM
Subject: RE: uncoupling Web Design/Web Development
> Basically, it was a strict requirement of the system, and this MVC2 is
> not implemented throughout the site in this manner, primarily for
> reporting features.
>
> Do the math, either generate 40 jsps that spit out HTML, then another 40
> for WML, then another 40 for PDF (120 JSPs), or just have a single set
> of 40 JSPs that output XML and then 3 stylesheets. It really depends on
> the application and how strict the design templates are across your
> pages. It may not be the best idea if for each XML JSP, you need to
> generate a set of 3 stylesheets.
>
> In addition, we are using the code I wrote that uses XSLTC to compile
> the XSL documents for faster transformation which makes this structure a
> lot more viable. You might want to look at cocoon as a much larger
> basis of this MVC2 pattern that has its own optimizations.
>
> Jacob Hookom
> Comprehensive Computer Science
> University of Wisconsin, Eau Claire
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Delamere [mailto:home@michael-delamere.de]
> Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 3:42 PM
> To: Struts Users Mailing List
> Subject: Re: uncoupling Web Design/Web Development
>
> I really like your idea but how long did it take for everyone involved
> to
> adapt to this approach?
> Surely it must take some time until efficiency comes back into the flow
> of
> things. Then again, I suppose when it does, everything becomes much
> easier.
>
> Regards,
>
> Michael
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jacob Hookom" <ho...@uwec.edu>
> To: "'Struts Users Mailing List'" <st...@jakarta.apache.org>
> Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 10:33 PM
> Subject: RE: uncoupling Web Design/Web Development
>
>
> > I am working on a big project for an insurance company and we are
> doing
> > everything in XML/XSLT. That way, the programmers can write JSP's or
> > Servlets that just generate XML data and then depending on who's
> making
> > the request, it formats the page as WML, PDF, or HTML. That way the
> > designers can just come up with stylesheets and the programmers just
> > generate straight XML data.
> >
> > Jacob Hookom
> > Comprehensive Computer Science
> > University of Wisconsin, Eau Claire
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Michael Delamere [mailto:home@michael-delamere.de]
> > Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 1:23 PM
> > To: Struts Users Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: uncoupling Web Design/Web Development
> >
> > This may not be ideal but the way we do it is that the designers give
> us
> > their static content (html pages) and we feed it into the
> jsps/velocity
> > templates.
> >
> > That way we have more control over the dynamic elements in the webpage
> > and
> > they can play and fiddle with their html code as much as they like
> :-).
> >
> > Regards Michael
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Greg Hess" <gh...@wrappedapps.com>
> > To: "Struts Mail List" <st...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 8:10 PM
> > Subject: uncoupling Web Design/Web Development
> >
> >
> > > Hi All,
> > >
> > > I have designed a web application that is dependant on a work flow,
> > the
> > user
> > > interface is constructed by Web Designers and the server side is
> done
> > by
> > Web
> > > Developers. The web designers are now comfortable using the struts
> > tags
> > and
> > > so on but they hate the fact that they have to follow the work flow
> in
> > order
> > > to see changes on a specific page. They would like to be able to
> view
> > a
> > page
> > > directly, out side the work flow in order to perform the web design.
> > >
> > > I am not sure how I should facilitate this or if I should?
> > >
> > > Any comments/suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > Greg
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> >
> > ---
> > Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
> > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > Version: 6.0.380 / Virus Database: 213 - Release Date: 7/24/2002
> >
> >
> > ---
> > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > Version: 6.0.380 / Virus Database: 213 - Release Date: 7/24/2002
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > For additional commands, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> >
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
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> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>
> ---
> Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.380 / Virus Database: 213 - Release Date: 7/24/2002
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.380 / Virus Database: 213 - Release Date: 7/24/2002
>
>
>
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<ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
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RE: uncoupling Web Design/Web Development
Posted by Jacob Hookom <ho...@uwec.edu>.
Basically, it was a strict requirement of the system, and this MVC2 is
not implemented throughout the site in this manner, primarily for
reporting features.
Do the math, either generate 40 jsps that spit out HTML, then another 40
for WML, then another 40 for PDF (120 JSPs), or just have a single set
of 40 JSPs that output XML and then 3 stylesheets. It really depends on
the application and how strict the design templates are across your
pages. It may not be the best idea if for each XML JSP, you need to
generate a set of 3 stylesheets.
In addition, we are using the code I wrote that uses XSLTC to compile
the XSL documents for faster transformation which makes this structure a
lot more viable. You might want to look at cocoon as a much larger
basis of this MVC2 pattern that has its own optimizations.
Jacob Hookom
Comprehensive Computer Science
University of Wisconsin, Eau Claire
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Delamere [mailto:home@michael-delamere.de]
Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 3:42 PM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: Re: uncoupling Web Design/Web Development
I really like your idea but how long did it take for everyone involved
to
adapt to this approach?
Surely it must take some time until efficiency comes back into the flow
of
things. Then again, I suppose when it does, everything becomes much
easier.
Regards,
Michael
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jacob Hookom" <ho...@uwec.edu>
To: "'Struts Users Mailing List'" <st...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 10:33 PM
Subject: RE: uncoupling Web Design/Web Development
> I am working on a big project for an insurance company and we are
doing
> everything in XML/XSLT. That way, the programmers can write JSP's or
> Servlets that just generate XML data and then depending on who's
making
> the request, it formats the page as WML, PDF, or HTML. That way the
> designers can just come up with stylesheets and the programmers just
> generate straight XML data.
>
> Jacob Hookom
> Comprehensive Computer Science
> University of Wisconsin, Eau Claire
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Delamere [mailto:home@michael-delamere.de]
> Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 1:23 PM
> To: Struts Users Mailing List
> Subject: Re: uncoupling Web Design/Web Development
>
> This may not be ideal but the way we do it is that the designers give
us
> their static content (html pages) and we feed it into the
jsps/velocity
> templates.
>
> That way we have more control over the dynamic elements in the webpage
> and
> they can play and fiddle with their html code as much as they like
:-).
>
> Regards Michael
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Greg Hess" <gh...@wrappedapps.com>
> To: "Struts Mail List" <st...@jakarta.apache.org>
> Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 8:10 PM
> Subject: uncoupling Web Design/Web Development
>
>
> > Hi All,
> >
> > I have designed a web application that is dependant on a work flow,
> the
> user
> > interface is constructed by Web Designers and the server side is
done
> by
> Web
> > Developers. The web designers are now comfortable using the struts
> tags
> and
> > so on but they hate the fact that they have to follow the work flow
in
> order
> > to see changes on a specific page. They would like to be able to
view
> a
> page
> > directly, out side the work flow in order to perform the web design.
> >
> > I am not sure how I should facilitate this or if I should?
> >
> > Any comments/suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Greg
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>
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Re: uncoupling Web Design/Web Development
Posted by Michael Delamere <ho...@michael-delamere.de>.
I really like your idea but how long did it take for everyone involved to
adapt to this approach?
Surely it must take some time until efficiency comes back into the flow of
things. Then again, I suppose when it does, everything becomes much easier.
Regards,
Michael
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jacob Hookom" <ho...@uwec.edu>
To: "'Struts Users Mailing List'" <st...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 10:33 PM
Subject: RE: uncoupling Web Design/Web Development
> I am working on a big project for an insurance company and we are doing
> everything in XML/XSLT. That way, the programmers can write JSP's or
> Servlets that just generate XML data and then depending on who's making
> the request, it formats the page as WML, PDF, or HTML. That way the
> designers can just come up with stylesheets and the programmers just
> generate straight XML data.
>
> Jacob Hookom
> Comprehensive Computer Science
> University of Wisconsin, Eau Claire
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Delamere [mailto:home@michael-delamere.de]
> Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 1:23 PM
> To: Struts Users Mailing List
> Subject: Re: uncoupling Web Design/Web Development
>
> This may not be ideal but the way we do it is that the designers give us
> their static content (html pages) and we feed it into the jsps/velocity
> templates.
>
> That way we have more control over the dynamic elements in the webpage
> and
> they can play and fiddle with their html code as much as they like :-).
>
> Regards Michael
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Greg Hess" <gh...@wrappedapps.com>
> To: "Struts Mail List" <st...@jakarta.apache.org>
> Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 8:10 PM
> Subject: uncoupling Web Design/Web Development
>
>
> > Hi All,
> >
> > I have designed a web application that is dependant on a work flow,
> the
> user
> > interface is constructed by Web Designers and the server side is done
> by
> Web
> > Developers. The web designers are now comfortable using the struts
> tags
> and
> > so on but they hate the fact that they have to follow the work flow in
> order
> > to see changes on a specific page. They would like to be able to view
> a
> page
> > directly, out side the work flow in order to perform the web design.
> >
> > I am not sure how I should facilitate this or if I should?
> >
> > Any comments/suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Greg
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>
> ---
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RE: uncoupling Web Design/Web Development
Posted by Greg Hess <gh...@wrappedapps.com>.
We have structured our development in the same manner. However now that we
are on a second(design) iteration the web designers are complaining that it
is time consuming to have to run through the complete work flow in order to
view small changes to the UI.
I am not sure if I should design the business logic to support default
values in a "design mode" so that the designers could view the pages
directly with default beans loaded into some scope. This would be time
consuming as every Action would have to support this "design mode".
Right now for testing I simply populate the database with default values but
you still have to follow the work flow in order to view pages.
I am thinking that I will compromise and allow direct access points
strategically throughout the app. I don't have the time to do this right now
so my current response to design is to bear with me.
What do others do to relieve this conflict?
Any help much appreciated,
Greg
-----Original Message-----
From: Melissa L Kelley [mailto:stu.strutsusers@stuology.net]
Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 4:12 PM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: RE: uncoupling Web Design/Web Development
On Mon, 29 Jul 2002, Jacob Hookom wrote:
Well, this may not be of any help if you are in the middle of development,
but I take the approach that after the business requirements
have been gathered, the designers go in one corner to work on
the interface and the developers go in another to work on the technical
design. Then designers can create html prototypes which can be used to get
the look and feel down and approved by the business client/end users, and
the developers can work on the business objects. Then you can get together
and tie it together using Struts.
It has worked well for me so far. By the time I get back with the
person/people doing the interface, most of that has been flushed out so
the designers' main job is taking their prototypes and converting them to
the view compenent using the appropriate tags, and any changes to the design
of the pages are small.
--> stu: www.stuology.net
It just no longer is plain simple safe fun
when it's the psycho chimp that has the ray gun
------------------------------------------------
Stuology -- A million monkeys can't be wrong
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Delamere [mailto:home@michael-delamere.de]
> Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 1:23 PM
> To: Struts Users Mailing List
> Subject: Re: uncoupling Web Design/Web Development
>
> This may not be ideal but the way we do it is that the designers give us
> their static content (html pages) and we feed it into the jsps/velocity
> templates.
>
> That way we have more control over the dynamic elements in the webpage
> and
> they can play and fiddle with their html code as much as they like :-).
>
> Regards Michael
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Greg Hess" <gh...@wrappedapps.com>
> To: "Struts Mail List" <st...@jakarta.apache.org>
> Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 8:10 PM
> Subject: uncoupling Web Design/Web Development
>
>
> > Hi All,
> >
> > I have designed a web application that is dependant on a work flow,
> the
> user
> > interface is constructed by Web Designers and the server side is done
> by
> Web
> > Developers. The web designers are now comfortable using the struts
> tags
> and
> > so on but they hate the fact that they have to follow the work flow in
> order
> > to see changes on a specific page. They would like to be able to view
> a
> page
> > directly, out side the work flow in order to perform the web design.
> >
> > I am not sure how I should facilitate this or if I should?
> >
> > Any comments/suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Greg
> >
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RE: uncoupling Web Design/Web Development
Posted by Melissa L Kelley <st...@stuology.net>.
On Mon, 29 Jul 2002, Jacob Hookom wrote:
Well, this may not be of any help if you are in the middle of development,
but I take the approach that after the business requirements
have been gathered, the designers go in one corner to work on
the interface and the developers go in another to work on the technical
design. Then designers can create html prototypes which can be used to get
the look and feel down and approved by the business client/end users, and
the developers can work on the business objects. Then you can get together
and tie it together using Struts.
It has worked well for me so far. By the time I get back with the
person/people doing the interface, most of that has been flushed out so
the designers' main job is taking their prototypes and converting them to
the view compenent using the appropriate tags, and any changes to the design
of the pages are small.
--> stu: www.stuology.net
It just no longer is plain simple safe fun
when it's the psycho chimp that has the ray gun
------------------------------------------------
Stuology -- A million monkeys can't be wrong
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Delamere [mailto:home@michael-delamere.de]
> Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 1:23 PM
> To: Struts Users Mailing List
> Subject: Re: uncoupling Web Design/Web Development
>
> This may not be ideal but the way we do it is that the designers give us
> their static content (html pages) and we feed it into the jsps/velocity
> templates.
>
> That way we have more control over the dynamic elements in the webpage
> and
> they can play and fiddle with their html code as much as they like :-).
>
> Regards Michael
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Greg Hess" <gh...@wrappedapps.com>
> To: "Struts Mail List" <st...@jakarta.apache.org>
> Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 8:10 PM
> Subject: uncoupling Web Design/Web Development
>
>
> > Hi All,
> >
> > I have designed a web application that is dependant on a work flow,
> the
> user
> > interface is constructed by Web Designers and the server side is done
> by
> Web
> > Developers. The web designers are now comfortable using the struts
> tags
> and
> > so on but they hate the fact that they have to follow the work flow in
> order
> > to see changes on a specific page. They would like to be able to view
> a
> page
> > directly, out side the work flow in order to perform the web design.
> >
> > I am not sure how I should facilitate this or if I should?
> >
> > Any comments/suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Greg
> >
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RE: uncoupling Web Design/Web Development
Posted by Greg Hess <gh...@wrappedapps.com>.
Thanks, very interesting. I was having trouble understanding some of the
benefits of using XML/XSLT and this is a very compelling benefit.
Greg
-----Original Message-----
From: Jacob Hookom [mailto:hookomjj@uwec.edu]
Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 4:33 PM
To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
Subject: RE: uncoupling Web Design/Web Development
I am working on a big project for an insurance company and we are doing
everything in XML/XSLT. That way, the programmers can write JSP's or
Servlets that just generate XML data and then depending on who's making
the request, it formats the page as WML, PDF, or HTML. That way the
designers can just come up with stylesheets and the programmers just
generate straight XML data.
Jacob Hookom
Comprehensive Computer Science
University of Wisconsin, Eau Claire
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Delamere [mailto:home@michael-delamere.de]
Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 1:23 PM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: Re: uncoupling Web Design/Web Development
This may not be ideal but the way we do it is that the designers give us
their static content (html pages) and we feed it into the jsps/velocity
templates.
That way we have more control over the dynamic elements in the webpage
and
they can play and fiddle with their html code as much as they like :-).
Regards Michael
----- Original Message -----
From: "Greg Hess" <gh...@wrappedapps.com>
To: "Struts Mail List" <st...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 8:10 PM
Subject: uncoupling Web Design/Web Development
> Hi All,
>
> I have designed a web application that is dependant on a work flow,
the
user
> interface is constructed by Web Designers and the server side is done
by
Web
> Developers. The web designers are now comfortable using the struts
tags
and
> so on but they hate the fact that they have to follow the work flow in
order
> to see changes on a specific page. They would like to be able to view
a
page
> directly, out side the work flow in order to perform the web design.
>
> I am not sure how I should facilitate this or if I should?
>
> Any comments/suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
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RE: uncoupling Web Design/Web Development
Posted by Jacob Hookom <ho...@uwec.edu>.
I am working on a big project for an insurance company and we are doing
everything in XML/XSLT. That way, the programmers can write JSP's or
Servlets that just generate XML data and then depending on who's making
the request, it formats the page as WML, PDF, or HTML. That way the
designers can just come up with stylesheets and the programmers just
generate straight XML data.
Jacob Hookom
Comprehensive Computer Science
University of Wisconsin, Eau Claire
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Delamere [mailto:home@michael-delamere.de]
Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 1:23 PM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: Re: uncoupling Web Design/Web Development
This may not be ideal but the way we do it is that the designers give us
their static content (html pages) and we feed it into the jsps/velocity
templates.
That way we have more control over the dynamic elements in the webpage
and
they can play and fiddle with their html code as much as they like :-).
Regards Michael
----- Original Message -----
From: "Greg Hess" <gh...@wrappedapps.com>
To: "Struts Mail List" <st...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 8:10 PM
Subject: uncoupling Web Design/Web Development
> Hi All,
>
> I have designed a web application that is dependant on a work flow,
the
user
> interface is constructed by Web Designers and the server side is done
by
Web
> Developers. The web designers are now comfortable using the struts
tags
and
> so on but they hate the fact that they have to follow the work flow in
order
> to see changes on a specific page. They would like to be able to view
a
page
> directly, out side the work flow in order to perform the web design.
>
> I am not sure how I should facilitate this or if I should?
>
> Any comments/suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
--
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<ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
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Re: uncoupling Web Design/Web Development
Posted by Michael Delamere <ho...@michael-delamere.de>.
This may not be ideal but the way we do it is that the designers give us
their static content (html pages) and we feed it into the jsps/velocity
templates.
That way we have more control over the dynamic elements in the webpage and
they can play and fiddle with their html code as much as they like :-).
Regards Michael
----- Original Message -----
From: "Greg Hess" <gh...@wrappedapps.com>
To: "Struts Mail List" <st...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 8:10 PM
Subject: uncoupling Web Design/Web Development
> Hi All,
>
> I have designed a web application that is dependant on a work flow, the
user
> interface is constructed by Web Designers and the server side is done by
Web
> Developers. The web designers are now comfortable using the struts tags
and
> so on but they hate the fact that they have to follow the work flow in
order
> to see changes on a specific page. They would like to be able to view a
page
> directly, out side the work flow in order to perform the web design.
>
> I am not sure how I should facilitate this or if I should?
>
> Any comments/suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
--
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