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Posted to dev@forrest.apache.org by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org> on 2002/06/05 00:38:48 UTC
[vote] on titles being elements or attributes
Let's get over with this...
Should titles be child elements of sections, or remain attributes with
the section element within the v11 DTD's?
[ ] <section title="Forrest R&D">...</section>
[ ] <section><title>Forrest R&D</title>...</section>
[ ] abstain
Your votes, please.
</Steven>
Re: [vote] on titles being elements or attributes
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
From: "Steven Noels" <st...@outerthought.org>
> Let's get over with this...
>
> Should titles be child elements of sections, or remain attributes with
> the section element within the v11 DTD's?
>
> [X] <section title="Forrest R&D">...</section>
> [ ] <section><title>Forrest R&D</title>...</section>
> [ ] abstain
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: [vote] on titles being elements or attributes
Posted by Andrew Savory <an...@luminas.co.uk>.
Steven Noels wrote:
> Should titles be child elements of sections, or remain attributes with
> the section element within the v11 DTD's?
>
> [ ] <section title="Forrest R&D">...</section>
> [+1] <section><title>Forrest R&D</title>...</section>
> [ ] abstain
Andrew.
--
Andrew Savory Email: andrew@luminas.co.uk
Managing Director Tel: +44 (0)870 741 6658
Luminas Internet Applications Fax: +44 (0)700 598 1135
This is not an official statement or order. Web: www.luminas.co.uk
Re: [vote] on titles being elements or attributes
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@indexgeo.com.au>.
Steven Noels wrote:
> Let's get over with this...
>
> Should titles be child elements of sections, or remain attributes with
> the section element within the v11 DTD's?
>
> [ ] <section title="Forrest R&D">...</section>
> [ ] <section><title>Forrest R&D</title>...</section>
> [ ] abstain
>
> Your votes, please.
[+1] <section><title>Forrest R&D</title>...</section>
Everytime this issue comes up, then i go and read bits at
http://xml.coverpages.org/elementsAndAttrs.html
The <title> element should have a limited content model
e.g. just <code>, <em>, etc. We certainly do not want to
see <link> and <br> etc.
--David
Re: [vote] on titles being elements or attributes
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@indexgeo.com.au>.
Carlos Araya wrote:
> As a non-voting member:
Everyone on the list can vote. Please see ...
clarification of voting procedure
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=xml-cocoon-dev&m=102074059901050
--David Crossley
Re: [vote] on titles being elements or attributes
Posted by Carlos <ca...@cvc.edu>.
As a non-voting member:
On 6/4/02 3:38 PM, "Steven Noels" <st...@outerthought.org> wrote:
> Let's get over with this...
>
> Should titles be child elements of sections, or remain attributes with
> the section element within the v11 DTD's?
>
> [ ] <section title="Forrest R&D">...</section>
[ XX ] <section><title>Forrest R&D</title>...</section>
> [ ] abstain
>
> Your votes, please.
>
> </Steven>
>
I want to gives us the possibility of using the title to build a sitemap
later on. I'd rather use an element than an attribute
Carlos
--
Carlos E. Araya
---+ WebCT Administrator/Trainer
P | California Virtual Campus
- | C/O De Anza College
G | 21250 Stevens Creek Blvd
---+ Cupertino, CA 95014
email carlos@cvc.edu
web http://www.cvc1.org/ (work)
http://silverwolf-net.net (personal)
phone 408 257 0420 (work)
PGP Fingerprint: E629 5DFD 7EAE 4995 E9D7 3D2F 5A9F 0CE7 DFE7 1756
"If there is artificial intelligence, doesn't that imply there is also
artificial stupidity!"
Re: [vote] on titles being elements or attributes
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Bert Van Kets wrote:
>
> >Should titles be child elements of sections, or remain attributes with
> >the section element within the v11 DTD's?
> >
> > [ ] <section title="Forrest R&D">...</section>
> > [ X ] <section><title>Forrest R&D</title>...</section>
> > [ ] abstain
>
> Looks clearer to me to maintain. It also reflects the structure of the
> head area.
After a lot of thinking, I've changed my mind and now I agree that the
title should be a structural element rather than a labelling attribute.
For two main reasons:
1) The title isn't a flat label describing an element, but it's a
structural element that contains some markup which is not necessarely
limited to text without markup.
While is not normally good to have <strong> in a title, the use of <em>,
<code> or <sup> <sub> is definately needed. You might also want to
consider those cases where namespaced markup must be added and
transformed as content (say, things like MathML), forcing the title to
be an attribute goes against the ability to mix namespaced content and
this is clearly a mistake, no matter how infrequent this become.
2) Css-based XML editors reflect the fact that elements are used as
structural blocks, while attributes are mostly used to indicate
non-visual properties of the markup. We know that CSS selectors allow
anything to be a block, even an attribute, but I think the design patter
of keeping attributes for non-visual information might be a good way to
judge a DTD for structures that must be directly presented.
So, here is my +1 to allow
<section>
<title>Blah</title>
...
</section>
and deprecate <section title="">
where the element 'title' can contain any of the inline markup elements.
--
Stefano Mazzocchi One must still have chaos in oneself to be
able to give birth to a dancing star.
<st...@apache.org> Friedrich Nietzsche
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: Hung vote [was: RE: [vote] on titles being elements or attributes]
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Steven Noels wrote:
>
> Dear all,
>
> Ballots so far + my majority +1 vote:
>
> Should titles be child elements of sections, or remain attributes with
> the section element within the v11 DTD's?
>
> | element | attribute
> --------------------------|-------------------
> forrest | David | Nicola
> committer | Steven | Konstantin
> ----------------------------------------------
> | Carlos |
> | Andrew |
> user | Bert |
> | Diana |
> | Ivelin |
>
> Given the fact Nicola has agreed the community to be part of this vote,
> I assume we know what to do right now. Since contributors/non-committers
> normally have no binding vote however, so we are still stuck w.r.t. the
> 'official' decision process
> (http://jakarta.apache.org/site/decisions.html). We need one more extra
> Forrest committer to vote on this, if we play by the rules (and we
> should, IMO - this is cross-project stuff and certainly will cause
> emotions with people transitioning their doco to our new DTD's, so we
> should decide on this according 'the book').
>
> John? Stefano?
I already voted for the element.
--
Stefano Mazzocchi One must still have chaos in oneself to be
able to give birth to a dancing star.
<st...@apache.org> Friedrich Nietzsche
--------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Hung vote [was: RE: [vote] on titles being elements or attributes]
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
Heh - Stefano always submits mails in batches... :-)
I should remember to cvs update my mail before committing a new one ;-)
Hung vote issue resolved, thanks guys. I'll do the necessary.
</Steven>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steven Noels [mailto:stevenn@outerthought.org]
> Sent: woensdag 5 juni 2002 16:15
> To: forrest-dev@xml.apache.org
> Subject: Hung vote [was: RE: [vote] on titles being elements or
> attributes]
>
>
> Dear all,
>
> Ballots so far + my majority +1 vote:
>
> Should titles be child elements of sections, or remain attributes with
> the section element within the v11 DTD's?
>
> | element | attribute
> --------------------------|-------------------
> forrest | David | Nicola
> committer | Steven | Konstantin
Stefano
> ----------------------------------------------
> | Carlos |
> | Andrew |
> user | Bert |
> | Diana |
> | Ivelin |
>
>
> Given the fact Nicola has agreed the community to be part of
> this vote,
> I assume we know what to do right now. Since
> contributors/non-committers
> normally have no binding vote however, so we are still stuck
> w.r.t. the
> 'official' decision process
> (http://jakarta.apache.org/site/decisions.html). We need one
> more extra
> Forrest committer to vote on this, if we play by the rules (and we
> should, IMO - this is cross-project stuff and certainly will cause
> emotions with people transitioning their doco to our new DTD's, so we
> should decide on this according 'the book').
>
> John? Stefano?
>
> </Steven>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Ivelin Ivanov [mailto:ivelin@apache.org]
> > Sent: woensdag 5 juni 2002 15:07
> > To: forrest-dev@xml.apache.org
> > Subject: Re: [vote] on titles being elements or attributes
> >
> >
> > > > Should titles be child elements of sections, or remain
> > attributes with
> > > > the section element within the v11 DTD's?
> > > >
> > > > [ ] <section title="Forrest R&D">...</section>
> > > > [ X ] <section><title>Forrest R&D</title>...</section>
> > > > [ ] abstain
> > >
> >
> > Ivelin
Hung vote [was: RE: [vote] on titles being elements or attributes]
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
Dear all,
Ballots so far + my majority +1 vote:
Should titles be child elements of sections, or remain attributes with
the section element within the v11 DTD's?
| element | attribute
--------------------------|-------------------
forrest | David | Nicola
committer | Steven | Konstantin
----------------------------------------------
| Carlos |
| Andrew |
user | Bert |
| Diana |
| Ivelin |
Given the fact Nicola has agreed the community to be part of this vote,
I assume we know what to do right now. Since contributors/non-committers
normally have no binding vote however, so we are still stuck w.r.t. the
'official' decision process
(http://jakarta.apache.org/site/decisions.html). We need one more extra
Forrest committer to vote on this, if we play by the rules (and we
should, IMO - this is cross-project stuff and certainly will cause
emotions with people transitioning their doco to our new DTD's, so we
should decide on this according 'the book').
John? Stefano?
</Steven>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ivelin Ivanov [mailto:ivelin@apache.org]
> Sent: woensdag 5 juni 2002 15:07
> To: forrest-dev@xml.apache.org
> Subject: Re: [vote] on titles being elements or attributes
>
>
> > > Should titles be child elements of sections, or remain
> attributes with
> > > the section element within the v11 DTD's?
> > >
> > > [ ] <section title="Forrest R&D">...</section>
> > > [ X ] <section><title>Forrest R&D</title>...</section>
> > > [ ] abstain
> >
>
> Ivelin
Re: [vote] on titles being elements or attributes
Posted by Ivelin Ivanov <iv...@apache.org>.
> > Should titles be child elements of sections, or remain attributes with
> > the section element within the v11 DTD's?
> >
> > [ ] <section title="Forrest R&D">...</section>
> > [ X ] <section><title>Forrest R&D</title>...</section>
> > [ ] abstain
>
Ivelin
Re: [vote] on titles being elements or attributes
Posted by Diana Shannon <te...@mac.com>.
> Should titles be child elements of sections, or remain attributes with
> the section element within the v11 DTD's?
>
> [ ] <section title="Forrest R&D">...</section>
> [ X ] <section><title>Forrest R&D</title>...</section>
> [ ] abstain
Diana
Re: [vote] on titles being elements or attributes
Posted by Bert Van Kets <be...@vankets.com>.
>Should titles be child elements of sections, or remain attributes with
>the section element within the v11 DTD's?
>
> [ ] <section title="Forrest R&D">...</section>
> [ X ] <section><title>Forrest R&D</title>...</section>
> [ ] abstain
Looks clearer to me to maintain. It also reflects the structure of the
head area.
Bert