You are viewing a plain text version of this content. The canonical link for it is here.
Posted to dev@hc.apache.org by Roland Weber <os...@dubioso.net> on 2008/03/08 09:26:34 UTC
[discuss] pure Java and cross-platform?
Hi all,
for the time being, all the code in our repository is
pure Java and can be built and run on any platform that
provides a Java implementation at the required level.
This applies not only to the supported code, but also
to the contrib code. Even though we don't support that,
we make sure that it compiles.
Is this a defining element of our project or not?
If it's not, what platforms should we support, and
who is in a position to support which platform?
cheers,
Roland
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@hc.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@hc.apache.org
Re: [discuss] pure Java and cross-platform?
Posted by Erik Abele <er...@codefaktor.de>.
On 10.03.2008, at 01:17, sebb wrote:
> On 09/03/2008, Oleg Kalnichevski <ol...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, 2008-03-09 at 18:55 +0000, sebb wrote:
>>> On 09/03/2008, Roland Weber <os...@dubioso.net> wrote:
>>>> Oleg Kalnichevski wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Roland
>>>>> Honestly, I really think this whole native code thing is not as
>>>>> bad as
>>>>> it may seem.
>>>>
>>>> It sure makes my spider-sense tingle like mad.
>>>
>>> I feel uncomfortable too.
>>>
>>> Who is going to build and test the code?
>>>
>>> Or is the code only going to be released as source?
>>
>> Yes, source code only, unsupported, as is, no releases, no
>> guarantees of
>> what so ever.
>
> So why bother? It could just be posted anywhere, with a link from the
> Wiki for those who wanted to use it.
So why not here? :-)
As long as we don't put it in a release package (be it source or ...)
we should be perfectly fine in providing it additionally in SVN.
Oleg gave some good reasons on why it makes sense to have it here and
I fully support that.
>>> ...
>>> What compilers will be permitted?
>>
>> Why should we preclude any compilers?
>
> Because not all compilers are freely available.
That doesn't make any sense.
What's used to compile and/or run our software isn't our business...
>>> The current discussion is only about Windows.
>>> If we decide to allow JNI code, what other platforms will need to
>>> be supported?
>>
>> If there is ever Windows integrated authentication for other
>> platforms,
>> I do not see a problem accepting that code into the 'contrib'
>> package as
>> well.
>
> Although prompted by the Windows NTLM issue, I thought this discussion
> was about more than just authentication.
So what? As long as we don't have any other (e.g. legal) issues then
we shouldn't limit our possibilities to provide additional resources
which foster the eco-system around HC.
And to get to the original question:
On 08.03.2008, at 09:26, Roland Weber wrote:
> ...for the time being, all the code in our repository is
> pure Java...
>
> Is this a defining element of our project or not?
No, it isn't - our core packages are obviously Java-centric, as
specified in the original resolution creating the TLP, but we do not
have to stay away from accpeting additional non-Java resources to
support our software.
Cheers,
Erik
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@hc.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@hc.apache.org
Re: [discuss] pure Java and cross-platform?
Posted by Oleg Kalnichevski <ol...@apache.org>.
On Mon, 2008-03-10 at 00:17 +0000, sebb wrote:
> On 09/03/2008, Oleg Kalnichevski <ol...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> > On Sun, 2008-03-09 at 18:55 +0000, sebb wrote:
> > > On 09/03/2008, Roland Weber <os...@dubioso.net> wrote:
> > > > Oleg Kalnichevski wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Roland
> > > > > Honestly, I really think this whole native code thing is not as bad as
> > > > > it may seem.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > It sure makes my spider-sense tingle like mad.
> > > >
> > >
> > > I feel uncomfortable too.
> > >
> > > Who is going to build and test the code?
> > >
> > > Or is the code only going to be released as source?
> >
> >
> > Yes, source code only, unsupported, as is, no releases, no guarantees of
> > what so ever.
>
> So why bother?
The same reasons we provide all our 'contrib': (1) help solve
_real-world_ problems that cannot be addressed by official releases (2)
help foster a larger ecology around our code (3) help ensure some day
someone may be find this code useful enough to start a full blown
project, like Not-Yet-Commons SSL, based on that code.
> It could just be posted anywhere, with a link from the
> Wiki for those who wanted to use it.
>
Where?
> >
> > > If so, will there be any checks to see if the code compiles?
> > >
> >
> >
> > Same checks we have for unsupported code now, that is, no automatic
> > checks.
> >
> >
> > > What about build scripts?
> > > What compilers will be permitted?
> > >
> >
> >
> > Why should we preclude any compilers?
> >
>
> Because not all compilers are freely available.
>
Not all operating systems we support are freely available as well. Shall
we discontinue our support for all commercial software?
> >
> > > The current discussion is only about Windows.
> > > If we decide to allow JNI code, what other platforms will need to be supported?
> >
> >
> > If there is ever Windows integrated authentication for other platforms,
> > I do not see a problem accepting that code into the 'contrib' package as
> > well.
> >
>
> Although prompted by the Windows NTLM issue, I thought this discussion
> was about more than just authentication.
>
As far as I am concerned this discussion is about _one_ thing and one
thing only: turning away contributors and turning down potentially
useful contributions due to some personal (mis)conceptions.
Oleg
> > Oleg
> >
> >
> > > I don't believe we should say that we'll only allow Windows-specific code.
> > >
> > > However, if we do decide to allow non-Java code, IMO it should only be
> > > permitted where there is no reasonable alternative.
> > >
> > >
> > > > cheers,
> > > > Roland
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@hc.apache.org
> > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@hc.apache.org
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@hc.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@hc.apache.org
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@hc.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@hc.apache.org
> >
> >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@hc.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@hc.apache.org
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@hc.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@hc.apache.org
Re: [discuss] pure Java and cross-platform?
Posted by Roland Weber <os...@dubioso.net>.
sebb wrote:
>
> Although prompted by the Windows NTLM issue, I thought this discussion
> was about more than just authentication.
For me, this discussion was about opening a can of worms
or steering clear of it.
never mind,
Roland
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@hc.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@hc.apache.org
Re: [discuss] pure Java and cross-platform?
Posted by sebb <se...@gmail.com>.
On 09/03/2008, Oleg Kalnichevski <ol...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> On Sun, 2008-03-09 at 18:55 +0000, sebb wrote:
> > On 09/03/2008, Roland Weber <os...@dubioso.net> wrote:
> > > Oleg Kalnichevski wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Roland
> > > > Honestly, I really think this whole native code thing is not as bad as
> > > > it may seem.
> > >
> > >
> > > It sure makes my spider-sense tingle like mad.
> > >
> >
> > I feel uncomfortable too.
> >
> > Who is going to build and test the code?
> >
> > Or is the code only going to be released as source?
>
>
> Yes, source code only, unsupported, as is, no releases, no guarantees of
> what so ever.
So why bother? It could just be posted anywhere, with a link from the
Wiki for those who wanted to use it.
>
> > If so, will there be any checks to see if the code compiles?
> >
>
>
> Same checks we have for unsupported code now, that is, no automatic
> checks.
>
>
> > What about build scripts?
> > What compilers will be permitted?
> >
>
>
> Why should we preclude any compilers?
>
Because not all compilers are freely available.
>
> > The current discussion is only about Windows.
> > If we decide to allow JNI code, what other platforms will need to be supported?
>
>
> If there is ever Windows integrated authentication for other platforms,
> I do not see a problem accepting that code into the 'contrib' package as
> well.
>
Although prompted by the Windows NTLM issue, I thought this discussion
was about more than just authentication.
> Oleg
>
>
> > I don't believe we should say that we'll only allow Windows-specific code.
> >
> > However, if we do decide to allow non-Java code, IMO it should only be
> > permitted where there is no reasonable alternative.
> >
> >
> > > cheers,
> > > Roland
> > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@hc.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@hc.apache.org
> > >
> > >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@hc.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@hc.apache.org
> >
> >
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@hc.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@hc.apache.org
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@hc.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@hc.apache.org
Re: [discuss] pure Java and cross-platform?
Posted by Oleg Kalnichevski <ol...@apache.org>.
On Sun, 2008-03-09 at 18:55 +0000, sebb wrote:
> On 09/03/2008, Roland Weber <os...@dubioso.net> wrote:
> > Oleg Kalnichevski wrote:
> > >
> > > Roland
> > > Honestly, I really think this whole native code thing is not as bad as
> > > it may seem.
> >
> >
> > It sure makes my spider-sense tingle like mad.
> >
>
> I feel uncomfortable too.
>
> Who is going to build and test the code?
>
> Or is the code only going to be released as source?
Yes, source code only, unsupported, as is, no releases, no guarantees of
what so ever.
> If so, will there be any checks to see if the code compiles?
>
Same checks we have for unsupported code now, that is, no automatic
checks.
> What about build scripts?
> What compilers will be permitted?
>
Why should we preclude any compilers?
> The current discussion is only about Windows.
> If we decide to allow JNI code, what other platforms will need to be supported?
If there is ever Windows integrated authentication for other platforms,
I do not see a problem accepting that code into the 'contrib' package as
well.
Oleg
> I don't believe we should say that we'll only allow Windows-specific code.
>
> However, if we do decide to allow non-Java code, IMO it should only be
> permitted where there is no reasonable alternative.
>
>
> > cheers,
> > Roland
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@hc.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@hc.apache.org
> >
> >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@hc.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@hc.apache.org
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@hc.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@hc.apache.org
Re: [discuss] pure Java and cross-platform?
Posted by sebb <se...@gmail.com>.
On 09/03/2008, Roland Weber <os...@dubioso.net> wrote:
> Oleg Kalnichevski wrote:
> >
> > Roland
> > Honestly, I really think this whole native code thing is not as bad as
> > it may seem.
>
>
> It sure makes my spider-sense tingle like mad.
>
I feel uncomfortable too.
Who is going to build and test the code?
Or is the code only going to be released as source?
If so, will there be any checks to see if the code compiles?
What about build scripts?
What compilers will be permitted?
The current discussion is only about Windows.
If we decide to allow JNI code, what other platforms will need to be supported?
I don't believe we should say that we'll only allow Windows-specific code.
However, if we do decide to allow non-Java code, IMO it should only be
permitted where there is no reasonable alternative.
> cheers,
> Roland
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@hc.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@hc.apache.org
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@hc.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@hc.apache.org
Re: [discuss] pure Java and cross-platform?
Posted by Roland Weber <os...@dubioso.net>.
Oleg Kalnichevski wrote:
>
> Roland
> Honestly, I really think this whole native code thing is not as bad as
> it may seem.
It sure makes my spider-sense tingle like mad.
cheers,
Roland
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@hc.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@hc.apache.org
Re: [discuss] pure Java and cross-platform?
Posted by Oleg Kalnichevski <ol...@apache.org>.
On Sun, 2008-03-09 at 17:36 +0100, Roland Weber wrote:
> Oleg Kalnichevski wrote:
> >> Who is going to review that code before it gets committed?
> >
> > I can volunteer if needed
>
> OK.
>
> >> Who is going to make sure it doesn't get broken by changes?
> >
> > Whoever makes changes to that code.
>
> So either you are reasonably sure that changes in HttpAuth
> will never affect that code,
I am reasonably sure about that. I believe it should be feasible to wrap
all JNI calls into a custom CredentialsProvider implementation and just
provide an extended Credentials interface that can optionally produce a
hash value instead of a username/password pair. As long as those two
interfaces do not change no one should _ever_ worry about some platform
specific CredentialsProvider impl residing in the contrib package.
Roland
Honestly, I really think this whole native code thing is not as bad as
it may seem.
Cheers
Oleg
> or you are saying that it will
> take a Windows machine to work on HttpAuth. Of course the
> latter can be handled by submitting patches for review and
> waiting for somebody with a Windows machine to verify.
>
> cheers,
> Roland
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@hc.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@hc.apache.org
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@hc.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@hc.apache.org
Re: [discuss] pure Java and cross-platform?
Posted by Roland Weber <os...@dubioso.net>.
Oleg Kalnichevski wrote:
>> Who is going to review that code before it gets committed?
>
> I can volunteer if needed
OK.
>> Who is going to make sure it doesn't get broken by changes?
>
> Whoever makes changes to that code.
So either you are reasonably sure that changes in HttpAuth
will never affect that code, or you are saying that it will
take a Windows machine to work on HttpAuth. Of course the
latter can be handled by submitting patches for review and
waiting for somebody with a Windows machine to verify.
cheers,
Roland
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@hc.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@hc.apache.org
Re: [discuss] pure Java and cross-platform?
Posted by Oleg Kalnichevski <ol...@apache.org>.
On Sat, 2008-03-08 at 16:01 +0100, Roland Weber wrote:
> Oleg Kalnichevski wrote:
> >
> > I _personally_ have no intention of getting into business of writing C
> > code. At the same time I _personally_ have no problem with accepting a
> > well written, documented, self-contained piece of native code
> > implementing a _very specific_ function into the contrib package.
>
> Who is going to review that code before it gets committed?
I can volunteer if needed
> Who is going to make sure it doesn't get broken by changes?
>
Whoever makes changes to that code.
Oleg
> cheers,
> Roland
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@hc.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@hc.apache.org
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@hc.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@hc.apache.org
Re: [discuss] pure Java and cross-platform?
Posted by Roland Weber <os...@dubioso.net>.
Oleg Kalnichevski wrote:
>
> I _personally_ have no intention of getting into business of writing C
> code. At the same time I _personally_ have no problem with accepting a
> well written, documented, self-contained piece of native code
> implementing a _very specific_ function into the contrib package.
Who is going to review that code before it gets committed?
Who is going to make sure it doesn't get broken by changes?
cheers,
Roland
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@hc.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@hc.apache.org
Re: [discuss] pure Java and cross-platform?
Posted by Oleg Kalnichevski <ol...@apache.org>.
On Sat, 2008-03-08 at 09:26 +0100, Roland Weber wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> for the time being, all the code in our repository is
> pure Java and can be built and run on any platform that
> provides a Java implementation at the required level.
> This applies not only to the supported code, but also
> to the contrib code. Even though we don't support that,
> we make sure that it compiles.
>
> Is this a defining element of our project or not?
> If it's not, what platforms should we support, and
> who is in a position to support which platform?
>
I _personally_ have no intention of getting into business of writing C
code. At the same time I _personally_ have no problem with accepting a
well written, documented, self-contained piece of native code
implementing a _very specific_ function into the contrib package.
At the end of the day this project exists so people could contribute
code and by doing so drive evolution of the project.
Cheers
Oleg
> cheers,
> Roland
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@hc.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@hc.apache.org
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@hc.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@hc.apache.org