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Posted to dev@devicemap.apache.org by Radu Cotescu <ra...@apache.org> on 2016/11/14 13:29:43 UTC
[IMPORTANT] Apache DeviceMap going to Attic
Hello,
As you might have noticed on dev@ [0], Bertrand has chosen to resign from
the PMC. Since the PMC has only two members right now, this doesn't offer a
viable number of people to manage the project.
Furthermore, the development activity has stagnated in the last year, which
has led me to think that it might be better to move the project to Attic
[1], which I'll suggest to the board in this month's report.
Regards,
Radu
[0] -
https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/b0affb5c87a005bdd827de36532a8087dc0fa373edaa230c37439b43@%3Cdev.devicemap.apache.org%3E
[1] - https://attic.apache.org/
Re: [IMPORTANT] Apache DeviceMap going to Attic
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 2:29 PM, Radu Cotescu <ra...@apache.org> wrote:
> ...it might be better to move the project to Attic
> [1], which I'll suggest to the board in this month's report....
+1
-Bertrand
Re: [IMPORTANT] Apache DeviceMap going to Attic
Posted by Marvin Humphrey <ma...@apache.org>.
On 2016-12-13 01:09 (-0800), Werner Keil <we...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I don't know, if and how long after the board meeting the SVN will be
> writabe, so prefer doing it now.
It is not good for there to be commits to a project with no one to oversee them, particularly if they may be consequential or controversial. Though I believe that the technical answer is that the timing of resources closing down depends on whatever volunteer takes the steps to initiate the sequence of Attic requests with Infra, you should not plan to make changes to the project after it has been retired.
This seems to have gone on for a long time. Even if the VOTE is not tidied up or the promised doc commits landed, since DeviceMap does not have a functional PMC, the Board may consider retiring the project regardless a week from tomorrow. The community has received ample notice.
Marvin Humphrey
Re: [IMPORTANT] Apache DeviceMap going to Attic
Posted by Werner Keil <we...@gmail.com>.
Just here for the list, I won't bother uploading the images to the VM or
elsewhere any more, but Maven based downloads of DeviceMap (data +
classifier client) saw an all time high of 289 downloads in August 2016.
Around twice highest numbers we saw in 2015 (around 160 combined) and last
month it was still higher than any month between graduation and 2015 with
212 downloads combined.
See for yourself if you want by logging into
https://repository.apache.org/#central-stat with a valid Apache committer
account.
That kind of demand and activity will likely continue regardless of
DeviceMap being archived. By offering a minimum documentation before the
plug is pulled, it makes it a bit easier for people to know where to get
it, but those who did so far will continue to do so at least for some time
or until appropriate Open Source replacements exist.
Cheers,
Werner
>
Re: [IMPORTANT] Apache DeviceMap going to Attic
Posted by Werner Keil <we...@gmail.com>.
This list has always been a little weird, after "You know who" attempted to
tamper with it and/or things like JIRA because he would not accept input
and opinion by anybody else. Until now I can send messages into the list,
but never get any notifications. I am not sure, if that's what you intended
earlier, but it does not matter much longer as you said, so let's not worry
about that any more.
He (you know who) also repeatedly tried to delete entire parts of the
DeviceMap codebase he either did not like or understand or both. That was
totally unacceptable for a collaborative Open Source project whether at
Apache Foundation or elsewhere. Those who misbehaved that way eventually
leaving the project was a logical consequence.
The lion share of commits over the whole period of the project (also
incubation, but the historic archive for that only seems to cover this
"dev" list?) show it was pretty much split across 2 committers/PMC members.
A small number was also committed by Radu, Bertrand (mostly organizational
or undoing prior violations of Apache practice by individual people) as
well as Volkan (briefly in early 2015) and Eberhard (with .NET artifacts
that more or less worked only on his PC till I fixed it with 1.0.1 last
year)
GitHub visualizes that rather nicely, but we never got to using Git, so
there is no GitHub mirror except one small part (Browsermap). I won't point
to it again, feel free to check out what you know who put "Data forked from
Apache DeviceMap (OpenDDR) 1.0.3" to GitHub and the last push was over a
year ago on Dec 1, 2015. So the single committer no longer commits to that
either while nobody would keep him from doing so.
Werner
Re: [IMPORTANT] Apache DeviceMap going to Attic
Posted by Werner Keil <we...@gmail.com>.
Bertrand/all,
Sorry but the fact is, there were many committers and they did not
commit for whatever reason.
Several committers (or their peers, there was nothing private or
"secret" about it) expressed their hope or faith to do so, but could
not fulfill those promises.
That is why the activity was extremely low. Both you and Radu did not
actively commit other than administrative tasks, you were clear and
honest about that. Others who joined as committers may only have
played the role of "observer" (that's what JSRs have for people who do
not intend to actively participate) while joining as "committer". Some
probably only subscribed to mailing lists like this one, the
When Humphrey stated DeviceMap does not have a functional PMC I guess
he meant the situation after you resigned having only 2 PMC members.
The problem that only 2 PMC members out of the 13-15 committers really
did commit existed before that. It always has. There is no way to talk
around it or pretend it did not.
Glad this is also recorded in the archive.
The problem of lacking resources is not that of a few companies be it
Adobe, Oracle or others. That is not a secret and the activity stats,
dormant or withdrawn projects (JSRs) also speak a clear language. As
do efforts by closed-source proprietary vendors to benefit from such
weakness.
Check out the response of fellow Java EE Guardian Pavel Pscheidl to a
Gartner post proclaiming Java EE dead:
http://www.pscheidl.cz/opinions/Gartner-JavaEE-report/
Something like that (Gartner paper) is what you can easily call
defamation of companies and technologies to push some others or some
agenda.
I simply summarized what you can find out for yourself on the other
list http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/devicemap-commits/ if
you want. Especially how many individual committers were involved in
those commits in each period of time.
Cheers,
Werner
Re: [IMPORTANT] Apache DeviceMap going to Attic
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 10:59 AM, Werner Keil <we...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The real problem of course was from day one, that DeviceMap had no
> functional committers:-/
I'll just state that the following elements of your message, quoted in
full below, are unacceptable in Apache projects:
-Violating someone's privacy by publishing the outcome of
conversations that you say you had with their manager
-Defamation of people and companies by making unfounded derogatory
statements about them while presenting them as facts
As this list is going to be closed soon I think we'll just leave it at
that, I just wanted our archives to include this statement.
-Bertrand
On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 10:59 AM, Werner Keil <we...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The real problem of course was from day one, that DeviceMap had no
> functional committers:-/
> While we welcomed Volcan as a committer and a dozen others (including some
> who served on the PMC, too) officially were or still are part of the team
> nobody did commit.
>
> Beside occasional JIRA posts or patches, there could have been one commit I
> recall Volkan made after he was elected, but hardly more. Not to mention
> any of the other committers/PMC members other than myself or Reza for a
> while.
> Having 13 or 15 committers, but never more than 1 or 2 of them actually
> committing won't work in any project for very long. Unless it's a "One Man
> Show" (which Reza hoped, he could get, but without regular data updates
> like OpenDDR had before we contributed it here, that makes no sense, nor do
> 2 or 3 different data formats, if even 1 cannot be maintained by a
> reasonable number of people)
>
> I spoke to Volkan's manager who explained, he was transferred to another
> department and could no longer contribute to device or CMS related projects
> including DeviceMap.
> We see that happen quite a bit. Bertrand's Radu's company Adobe also could
> not meet its Spec Lead responsibilities in the Java Content Repository 2.1
> standard (JSR 333: https://jcp.org/en/jsr/detail?id=333) so that JSR went
> dormant. Despite some Apache projects like Jackrabbit or Sling seemingly
> alive and not yet dormant, but they use earlier versions of that standard.
>
> Oracle also had to hand over the Portlet Bridge standard and either
> withdraw or drastically slow down Java EE JSRs due to lack of resources. We
> seem so see that in many places where Open Source is seen as "Free Lunch"
> but not everyone is willing to cook it or bring the ingredients ;-(
>
> Radu filed the termination to the board. Which should be processed by it
> during the next meeting.
> Until that I brush up a few documentation pages only which has been
> neglected earlier. It's not like nobody downloads DeviceMap. In fact it saw
> a surge beyond the time of the last releases in the course of 2016 counting
> only Maven access to data or the Java client. So instead of leving
> "scorched earth" or even deleting things from the repository like a few
> former PMC members did, I try to leave it so everyone visiting the archive
> page (which will probably be around as long as apache.org exists;-) gets an
> idea what DeviceMap was/is about and if they find the code useful they can
> download it or even fork to make own modifications.
>
> I'll also vote on the thread where other PMC members did.
>
> Regards,
> Werner
Re: [IMPORTANT] Apache DeviceMap going to Attic
Posted by Werner Keil <we...@gmail.com>.
The real problem of course was from day one, that DeviceMap had no
functional committers:-/
While we welcomed Volcan as a committer and a dozen others (including some
who served on the PMC, too) officially were or still are part of the team
nobody did commit.
Beside occasional JIRA posts or patches, there could have been one commit I
recall Volkan made after he was elected, but hardly more. Not to mention
any of the other committers/PMC members other than myself or Reza for a
while.
Having 13 or 15 committers, but never more than 1 or 2 of them actually
committing won't work in any project for very long. Unless it's a "One Man
Show" (which Reza hoped, he could get, but without regular data updates
like OpenDDR had before we contributed it here, that makes no sense, nor do
2 or 3 different data formats, if even 1 cannot be maintained by a
reasonable number of people)
I spoke to Volkan's manager who explained, he was transferred to another
department and could no longer contribute to device or CMS related projects
including DeviceMap.
We see that happen quite a bit. Bertrand's Radu's company Adobe also could
not meet its Spec Lead responsibilities in the Java Content Repository 2.1
standard (JSR 333: https://jcp.org/en/jsr/detail?id=333) so that JSR went
dormant. Despite some Apache projects like Jackrabbit or Sling seemingly
alive and not yet dormant, but they use earlier versions of that standard.
Oracle also had to hand over the Portlet Bridge standard and either
withdraw or drastically slow down Java EE JSRs due to lack of resources. We
seem so see that in many places where Open Source is seen as "Free Lunch"
but not everyone is willing to cook it or bring the ingredients ;-(
Radu filed the termination to the board. Which should be processed by it
during the next meeting.
Until that I brush up a few documentation pages only which has been
neglected earlier. It's not like nobody downloads DeviceMap. In fact it saw
a surge beyond the time of the last releases in the course of 2016 counting
only Maven access to data or the Java client. So instead of leving
"scorched earth" or even deleting things from the repository like a few
former PMC members did, I try to leave it so everyone visiting the archive
page (which will probably be around as long as apache.org exists;-) gets an
idea what DeviceMap was/is about and if they find the code useful they can
download it or even fork to make own modifications.
I'll also vote on the thread where other PMC members did.
Regards,
Werner
On 2016-12-13 01:09 (-0800), Werner Keil <we...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I don't know, if and how long after the board meeting the SVN will be
> writabe, so prefer doing it now.
It is not good for there to be commits to a project with no one to
oversee them, particularly
if they may be consequential or controversial. Though I believe that
the technical answer
is that the timing of resources closing down depends on whatever
volunteer takes the steps
to initiate the sequence of Attic requests with Infra, you should not
plan to make changes
to the project after it has been retired.
This seems to have gone on for a long time. Even if the VOTE is not
tidied up or the promised
doc commits landed, since DeviceMap does not have a functional PMC,
the Board may consider
retiring the project regardless a week from tomorrow. The community
has received ample notice.
Marvin Humphrey
Werner Keil | JCP Executive Committee Member, JSR 363 Co Spec Lead |
Eclipse UOMo Lead, Babel Language Champion | Apache Committer
Twitter @wernerkeil | @UnitAPI | @JSR354 | @AgoravaProj | @TamayaConf |
#DevOps | #EclipseUOMo
Skype werner.keil | Google+ gplus.to/wernerkeil
On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 10:19 AM, Werner Keil <we...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Do you know, how many weeks after such board meeting infra will turn
> everything R/O in most cases?
>
> If e.g. the rest of the year (about week after that meeting) SVN to "site"
> still works, I could also do a bit more brushing of doc pages then.
> That is all I forsee, the clients themselves and data in the snapshot
> version is what people can use.
>
> I spoke to fellow committers from OpenDDR earlier and possible, we'll
> offer something as an alternative there (attic pages of other projects
> suggest you point to those, in theory Reza could also do that, but not sure
> if he'll bother in case of his project as it has not seen any activity for
> a year or more)
>
> Cheers,
> Werner
>
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 10:12 AM, Radu Cotescu <ra...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>> Ok, thanks for the update!
>>
>> The only problem is that I'm on PTO starting December 21st and therefore
>> I will not be able to log into ASF's systems. Could you please make sure
>> that everything's ready sooner? Usually we need to send the reports /
>> resolutions one week prior to the board meeting.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Radu
>>
>> On Tue, 13 Dec 2016 at 10:09 Werner Keil <we...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> As mentioned, there are one or two doc pages I would like to get into a
>>> proper shape, so it's not all lost and useless (I don't see any other
>>> commit in http://devicemap.apache.org/docs/)
>>> I don't know, if and how long after the board meeting the SVN will be
>>> writabe, so prefer doing it now.
>>>
>>> AFAIK the meeting is Dec 23, so I'll cast my vote before that.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Werner
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 9:28 AM, Radu Cotescu <ra...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> >
>>> > Hi Werner,
>>> >
>>> > IIRC we're just missing your vote in order for me to be able to submit
>>> the
>>> > resolution. Could you please help us out here, so that the resolution
>>> is
>>> > ready before the board's meeting?
>>> >
>>> > Thanks,
>>> > Radu
>>> >
>>> > On Tue, 13 Dec 2016 at 02:14 Marvin Humphrey <ma...@apache.org>
>>> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> On 2016-11-14 05:29 (-0800), Radu Cotescu <ra...@apache.org> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> > Furthermore, the development activity has stagnated in the last
>>> year,
>>> >> which
>>> >> > has led me to think that it might be better to move the project to
>>> Attic
>>> >> > [1], which I'll suggest to the board in this month's report.
>>> >>
>>> >> The December Board meeting is a little over a week away, and it seems
>>> >> like retirement preparations are largely played out. Can the PMC
>>> please
>>> >> submit a resolution to retire the project?
>>> >>
>>> >> Marvin Humphrey
>>> >>
>>> >
>>>
>>
>
Re: [IMPORTANT] Apache DeviceMap going to Attic
Posted by Werner Keil <we...@gmail.com>.
Do you know, how many weeks after such board meeting infra will turn
everything R/O in most cases?
If e.g. the rest of the year (about week after that meeting) SVN to "site"
still works, I could also do a bit more brushing of doc pages then.
That is all I forsee, the clients themselves and data in the snapshot
version is what people can use.
I spoke to fellow committers from OpenDDR earlier and possible, we'll offer
something as an alternative there (attic pages of other projects suggest
you point to those, in theory Reza could also do that, but not sure if
he'll bother in case of his project as it has not seen any activity for a
year or more)
Cheers,
Werner
On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 10:12 AM, Radu Cotescu <ra...@apache.org> wrote:
> Ok, thanks for the update!
>
> The only problem is that I'm on PTO starting December 21st and therefore I
> will not be able to log into ASF's systems. Could you please make sure that
> everything's ready sooner? Usually we need to send the reports /
> resolutions one week prior to the board meeting.
>
> Thanks,
> Radu
>
> On Tue, 13 Dec 2016 at 10:09 Werner Keil <we...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> As mentioned, there are one or two doc pages I would like to get into a
>> proper shape, so it's not all lost and useless (I don't see any other
>> commit in http://devicemap.apache.org/docs/)
>> I don't know, if and how long after the board meeting the SVN will be
>> writabe, so prefer doing it now.
>>
>> AFAIK the meeting is Dec 23, so I'll cast my vote before that.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Werner
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 9:28 AM, Radu Cotescu <ra...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > Hi Werner,
>> >
>> > IIRC we're just missing your vote in order for me to be able to submit
>> the
>> > resolution. Could you please help us out here, so that the resolution is
>> > ready before the board's meeting?
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> > Radu
>> >
>> > On Tue, 13 Dec 2016 at 02:14 Marvin Humphrey <ma...@apache.org> wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On 2016-11-14 05:29 (-0800), Radu Cotescu <ra...@apache.org> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > Furthermore, the development activity has stagnated in the last year,
>> >> which
>> >> > has led me to think that it might be better to move the project to
>> Attic
>> >> > [1], which I'll suggest to the board in this month's report.
>> >>
>> >> The December Board meeting is a little over a week away, and it seems
>> >> like retirement preparations are largely played out. Can the PMC
>> please
>> >> submit a resolution to retire the project?
>> >>
>> >> Marvin Humphrey
>> >>
>> >
>>
>
Re: [IMPORTANT] Apache DeviceMap going to Attic
Posted by Radu Cotescu <ra...@apache.org>.
Ok, thanks for the update!
The only problem is that I'm on PTO starting December 21st and therefore I
will not be able to log into ASF's systems. Could you please make sure that
everything's ready sooner? Usually we need to send the reports /
resolutions one week prior to the board meeting.
Thanks,
Radu
On Tue, 13 Dec 2016 at 10:09 Werner Keil <we...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> As mentioned, there are one or two doc pages I would like to get into a
> proper shape, so it's not all lost and useless (I don't see any other
> commit in http://devicemap.apache.org/docs/)
> I don't know, if and how long after the board meeting the SVN will be
> writabe, so prefer doing it now.
>
> AFAIK the meeting is Dec 23, so I'll cast my vote before that.
>
> Cheers,
> Werner
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 9:28 AM, Radu Cotescu <ra...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> >
> > Hi Werner,
> >
> > IIRC we're just missing your vote in order for me to be able to submit
> the
> > resolution. Could you please help us out here, so that the resolution is
> > ready before the board's meeting?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Radu
> >
> > On Tue, 13 Dec 2016 at 02:14 Marvin Humphrey <ma...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> On 2016-11-14 05:29 (-0800), Radu Cotescu <ra...@apache.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Furthermore, the development activity has stagnated in the last year,
> >> which
> >> > has led me to think that it might be better to move the project to
> Attic
> >> > [1], which I'll suggest to the board in this month's report.
> >>
> >> The December Board meeting is a little over a week away, and it seems
> >> like retirement preparations are largely played out. Can the PMC please
> >> submit a resolution to retire the project?
> >>
> >> Marvin Humphrey
> >>
> >
>
Re: [IMPORTANT] Apache DeviceMap going to Attic
Posted by Werner Keil <we...@gmail.com>.
Hi,
As mentioned, there are one or two doc pages I would like to get into a
proper shape, so it's not all lost and useless (I don't see any other
commit in http://devicemap.apache.org/docs/)
I don't know, if and how long after the board meeting the SVN will be
writabe, so prefer doing it now.
AFAIK the meeting is Dec 23, so I'll cast my vote before that.
Cheers,
Werner
On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 9:28 AM, Radu Cotescu <ra...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> Hi Werner,
>
> IIRC we're just missing your vote in order for me to be able to submit the
> resolution. Could you please help us out here, so that the resolution is
> ready before the board's meeting?
>
> Thanks,
> Radu
>
> On Tue, 13 Dec 2016 at 02:14 Marvin Humphrey <ma...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On 2016-11-14 05:29 (-0800), Radu Cotescu <ra...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>> > Furthermore, the development activity has stagnated in the last year,
>> which
>> > has led me to think that it might be better to move the project to Attic
>> > [1], which I'll suggest to the board in this month's report.
>>
>> The December Board meeting is a little over a week away, and it seems
>> like retirement preparations are largely played out. Can the PMC please
>> submit a resolution to retire the project?
>>
>> Marvin Humphrey
>>
>
Re: [IMPORTANT] Apache DeviceMap going to Attic
Posted by Volkan Yazıcı <vo...@gmail.com>.
It has been months since we decided moving the project to the attic.
I also do not see a reason to wait any longer.
These discussions do not serve a purpose any more, except creating noise, I
think.
On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 12:09 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz <
bdelacretaz@apache.org> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 9:28 AM, Radu Cotescu <ra...@apache.org> wrote:
> > ...IIRC we're just missing your vote in order for me to be able to
> submit the
> > resolution....
>
> I suggest that you go ahead and submit that resolution.
>
> Either we get a third +1 vote and move to the Attic, or we don't get
> it and it shows that this PMC is now too small to operate and the
> project needs to go to the attic anyway.
>
> So no need to wait IMO.
>
> There have not been any signs of life from other community members
> since this thread started so I don't see any reason to wait more.
>
> -Bertrand
>
Re: [IMPORTANT] Apache DeviceMap going to Attic
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
Hi,
On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 9:28 AM, Radu Cotescu <ra...@apache.org> wrote:
> ...IIRC we're just missing your vote in order for me to be able to submit the
> resolution....
I suggest that you go ahead and submit that resolution.
Either we get a third +1 vote and move to the Attic, or we don't get
it and it shows that this PMC is now too small to operate and the
project needs to go to the attic anyway.
So no need to wait IMO.
There have not been any signs of life from other community members
since this thread started so I don't see any reason to wait more.
-Bertrand
Re: [IMPORTANT] Apache DeviceMap going to Attic
Posted by Radu Cotescu <ra...@apache.org>.
Hi Werner,
IIRC we're just missing your vote in order for me to be able to submit the
resolution. Could you please help us out here, so that the resolution is
ready before the board's meeting?
Thanks,
Radu
On Tue, 13 Dec 2016 at 02:14 Marvin Humphrey <ma...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>
> On 2016-11-14 05:29 (-0800), Radu Cotescu <ra...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > Furthermore, the development activity has stagnated in the last year,
> which
> > has led me to think that it might be better to move the project to Attic
> > [1], which I'll suggest to the board in this month's report.
>
> The December Board meeting is a little over a week away, and it seems like
> retirement preparations are largely played out. Can the PMC please submit
> a resolution to retire the project?
>
> Marvin Humphrey
>
Re: [IMPORTANT] Apache DeviceMap going to Attic
Posted by Marvin Humphrey <ma...@apache.org>.
On 2016-11-14 05:29 (-0800), Radu Cotescu <ra...@apache.org> wrote:
> Furthermore, the development activity has stagnated in the last year, which
> has led me to think that it might be better to move the project to Attic
> [1], which I'll suggest to the board in this month's report.
The December Board meeting is a little over a week away, and it seems like retirement preparations are largely played out. Can the PMC please submit a resolution to retire the project?
Marvin Humphrey