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Posted to modperl@perl.apache.org by "Jim Morrison [Mailinglists]" <ju...@mediaisotope.com> on 2002/09/26 15:44:12 UTC
[OT] - Mailing List Servers/mods .. etc
Sorry..
This is completely off topic.. but I have a question you guys might help
me with..
I'm writing then next part of a big modperl project I'm doing.. This bit
could be loosely called a mailing-list-server..
The listserver is going to handle out-going (only'ish) opt-in mailing
lists. The opting-in bit is all bound into the rest of the project, as
is the construction of the outgoing email, and the list management...
I'm wondering if there is any point in looking for a piece of third
party software/module etc, that will handle the sending of the mail or
should I work directly with sendmail? (Is sendmail the best mailserver
for this kind of thing?)
I'd be happy to write something along the line of formail.pl on my own,
so I kinda know what I'm doing, but I'm gonna have to take things like
"Return to sender" errors and such into account..
My question I guess is:
- Is it ok to send 100's or 1000's of mails to sendmail in one go, or
is there a better way of doing bulk mail?
- Are there any mods to help with dealing with returned mail etc..?
- Is there a good list of people doing this sort of thing? (Or do you
mind the thread being a little off-topic!)
I don't think I'm trying to reinvent the wheel.. Just that I think there
is so much of my own coding involved, I'm not sure if I'm going to be
able to get away with anything less than writing it from scratch..
Would be greatful for any advice,
Kindest,
Jimbo
Jim Morrison
_____________________________________
Technology & Development Partner
Isotope LLP
9, 2 Laura Place
Bath, BA2 4BH
UK
+44 (0) 1225 446170
+44 (0) 7940 937822
www.mediaisotope.com
Re: [OT] - Mailing List Servers/mods .. etc
Posted by Brian Reichert <re...@numachi.com>.
On Thu, Sep 26, 2002 at 02:44:12PM +0100, Jim Morrison [Mailinglists] wrote:
> Sorry..
> This is completely off topic.. but I have a question you guys might help
> me with..
>
>
> I'm writing then next part of a big modperl project I'm doing.. This bit
> could be loosely called a mailing-list-server..
>
> The listserver is going to handle out-going (only'ish) opt-in mailing
> lists. The opting-in bit is all bound into the rest of the project, as
> is the construction of the outgoing email, and the list management...
I endorse qmail + ezmlm for mailing list management.
There are many tales of qmail being faster than sendmail, with
respect to enqueuing and remotely delivering mail.
And, ezmlm (a qmail-aware mailing list manager) readily handles
issues like bounce management, etc.
> I'm wondering if there is any point in looking for a piece of third
> party software/module etc, that will handle the sending of the mail or
> should I work directly with sendmail? (Is sendmail the best mailserver
> for this kind of thing?)
Qmail does provide an interface called 'sendmail', so it would drop
in, without a hitch. Qmail, hoever, does have a lower-level mechanism
for injecting mail into the local queue, called 'qmail-inject';
even more efficient.
> I'd be happy to write something along the line of formail.pl on my own,
> so I kinda know what I'm doing, but I'm gonna have to take things like
> "Return to sender" errors and such into account..
Hit Google. People have written plenty of webbish front-ends to
the qmail universe (as well as other MTAs).
> My question I guess is:
> - Is it ok to send 100's or 1000's of mails to sendmail in one go, or
> is there a better way of doing bulk mail?
If the email messages are identical (ie., not customized for each
recipient), then a bulk inject via qmail-inject is the way to go;
you can easily inject _many_ thousands of messages in one go.
Even better: just treat your list of subscibers as an ezmlm mailing
list; all your code has to do is 'send this message to list'. You
don't have to do any work at all; ezmlm will even manage bounces
for you, and unsubscribe people.
> - Are there any mods to help with dealing with returned mail etc..?
For this reason, among many others, I use qmail instead of sendmail
for automated mail generation + handling, so that I can take advantage
of the VERP feature. Essentially, it's a way of crafting the sender
part of the envelope to redundtanly contain the recipient part,
such that when your server receives a bounce, it 'knows' who it was
sent to. Saves you the pain of parsing the myriad non-standard
bounce message formats out there.
See:
http://cr.yp.to/proto/verp.txt
> - Is there a good list of people doing this sort of thing? (Or do you
> mind the thread being a little off-topic!)
This whole issue isn't about a web server; it's about how to generate
automated mail, and to manage returned messages programmtically.
It sounds like the conversation should happen on a mailing list for
your MTA of choice. (sendmail, qmail, postfix, etc.)
So, start looking here:
http://www.ezmlm.org/
This will explain tons of features of ezmlm. If it wins you over,
go here for qmail itself:
http://www.qmail.org/
> I don't think I'm trying to reinvent the wheel.. Just that I think there
> is so much of my own coding involved, I'm not sure if I'm going to be
> able to get away with anything less than writing it from scratch..
Offload all of your mail-handling onto a MLM/MUA combo you trust.
Don't reinvent _that_ wheel.
> Would be greatful for any advice,
Good luck.
> Kindest,
> Jimbo
--
Brian 'you Bastard' Reichert <re...@numachi.com>
37 Crystal Ave. #303 Daytime number: (603) 434-6842
Derry NH 03038-1713 USA Intel architecture: the left-hand path
Re: [OT] - Mailing List Servers/mods .. etc
Posted by Rob Nagler <na...@bivio.biz>.
Jim Morrison [Mailinglists] writes:
> I'm wondering if there is any point in looking for a piece of third
> party software/module etc, that will handle the sending of the mail or
> should I work directly with sendmail? (Is sendmail the best mailserver
> for this kind of thing?)
sendmail has its problems, but I can send about 10K msgs/hour on a
low-end server (500Mhz). It's good enough for most low-end mailing
list problems.
> I'd be happy to write something along the line of formail.pl on my own,
> so I kinda know what I'm doing, but I'm gonna have to take things like
> "Return to sender" errors and such into account..
Tough problem in general, which companies like experian, doubleclick
and returnpath.net spend lots of money on. You need to know how to
parse this information without false positives.
> My question I guess is:
> - Is it ok to send 100's or 1000's of mails to sendmail in one go, or
> is there a better way of doing bulk mail?
I don't think you should worry about it right now. sendmail can
handle the load. You can always use an internal relay if you need to
distribute the load. Hardware is cheap.
> - Are there any mods to help with dealing with returned mail etc..?
bOP has a C program called b-sendmail-http.[1] It's a gateway from
sendmail to http. We handle all mail through mod_perl. You can use
b-sendmail-http with any HTTP implementation, because it simply wraps
the e-mail, client IP, and envelope to into multipart/form-data.[2]
> - Is there a good list of people doing this sort of thing? (Or do you
> mind the thread being a little off-topic!)
I like it, then my current project is in this space. :-)
> I don't think I'm trying to reinvent the wheel.. Just that I think there
> is so much of my own coding involved, I'm not sure if I'm going to be
> able to get away with anything less than writing it from scratch..
The code isn't complicated, but the detailed knowledge is. There are
a number of mailinglist packages out there including ultimate bbs,
which is used by quite a number of sites. We rolled our own, because
email is integrated with other apps (e.g. search, file sharing, and
group join).
Rob
[1] http://www.bivio.biz/f/bOP/bin/b-sendmail-http.c
[2] http://petshop.bivio.biz/src?s=Bivio::Biz::Model::MailReceiveBaseForm
Re: [OT] - Mailing List Servers/mods .. etc
Posted by "Erich L. Markert" <em...@netscape.net>.
It's been a while since I last used it, but I used a perl app called
bulkmail. Worked like a champ on a UNIX/sendmail system.
Robert Landrum wrote:
>I did just this. Unfortunatly, sendmail proved to be too slow, both in
>command line piping (i.e. open(PROG,"| sendmail ....");), and via
>socket connection to port 25 to be a viable solution for the volume of mail we
>sent.
>
>Last I checked, the code I wrote interfaced with Lyris, which was performing
>ok. When I left the project, they were looking into alternative approaches to
>sending email. Note that this was all legitimate (double opt-in) bulk email.
>
>I have some code which is public. Go grab SMTP-* from
>http://bigrob.ath.cx/dist/. These are a little better than the currently
>existing Net:: modules. I do a bit more logging and error checking.
>
>At some point, those should be on CPAN if I can get the namespace approved.
>
>:)
>
>Good luck,
>Rob
>
>On Thu, Sep 26, 2002 at 02:44:12PM +0100, Jim Morrison [Mailinglists] wrote:
>
>
>>Sorry..
>>This is completely off topic.. but I have a question you guys might help
>>me with..
>>
>>
>>I'm writing then next part of a big modperl project I'm doing.. This bit
>>could be loosely called a mailing-list-server..
>>
>>The listserver is going to handle out-going (only'ish) opt-in mailing
>>lists. The opting-in bit is all bound into the rest of the project, as
>>is the construction of the outgoing email, and the list management...
>>
>>I'm wondering if there is any point in looking for a piece of third
>>party software/module etc, that will handle the sending of the mail or
>>should I work directly with sendmail? (Is sendmail the best mailserver
>>for this kind of thing?)
>>
>>I'd be happy to write something along the line of formail.pl on my own,
>>so I kinda know what I'm doing, but I'm gonna have to take things like
>>"Return to sender" errors and such into account..
>>
>>
>>
>>My question I guess is:
>> - Is it ok to send 100's or 1000's of mails to sendmail in one go, or
>>is there a better way of doing bulk mail?
>> - Are there any mods to help with dealing with returned mail etc..?
>> - Is there a good list of people doing this sort of thing? (Or do you
>>mind the thread being a little off-topic!)
>>
>>
>>I don't think I'm trying to reinvent the wheel.. Just that I think there
>>is so much of my own coding involved, I'm not sure if I'm going to be
>>able to get away with anything less than writing it from scratch..
>>
>>Would be greatful for any advice,
>>
>>Kindest,
>>Jimbo
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Jim Morrison
>>_____________________________________
>>Technology & Development Partner
>>Isotope LLP
>>9, 2 Laura Place
>>Bath, BA2 4BH
>>UK
>>+44 (0) 1225 446170
>>+44 (0) 7940 937822
>>www.mediaisotope.com
>>
>>
--
Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas.
Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape!
http://shopnow.netscape.com/
Re: [OT] - Mailing List Servers/mods .. etc
Posted by Robert Landrum <rl...@aol.net>.
I did just this. Unfortunatly, sendmail proved to be too slow, both in
command line piping (i.e. open(PROG,"| sendmail ....");), and via
socket connection to port 25 to be a viable solution for the volume of mail we
sent.
Last I checked, the code I wrote interfaced with Lyris, which was performing
ok. When I left the project, they were looking into alternative approaches to
sending email. Note that this was all legitimate (double opt-in) bulk email.
I have some code which is public. Go grab SMTP-* from
http://bigrob.ath.cx/dist/. These are a little better than the currently
existing Net:: modules. I do a bit more logging and error checking.
At some point, those should be on CPAN if I can get the namespace approved.
:)
Good luck,
Rob
On Thu, Sep 26, 2002 at 02:44:12PM +0100, Jim Morrison [Mailinglists] wrote:
> Sorry..
> This is completely off topic.. but I have a question you guys might help
> me with..
>
>
> I'm writing then next part of a big modperl project I'm doing.. This bit
> could be loosely called a mailing-list-server..
>
> The listserver is going to handle out-going (only'ish) opt-in mailing
> lists. The opting-in bit is all bound into the rest of the project, as
> is the construction of the outgoing email, and the list management...
>
> I'm wondering if there is any point in looking for a piece of third
> party software/module etc, that will handle the sending of the mail or
> should I work directly with sendmail? (Is sendmail the best mailserver
> for this kind of thing?)
>
> I'd be happy to write something along the line of formail.pl on my own,
> so I kinda know what I'm doing, but I'm gonna have to take things like
> "Return to sender" errors and such into account..
>
>
>
> My question I guess is:
> - Is it ok to send 100's or 1000's of mails to sendmail in one go, or
> is there a better way of doing bulk mail?
> - Are there any mods to help with dealing with returned mail etc..?
> - Is there a good list of people doing this sort of thing? (Or do you
> mind the thread being a little off-topic!)
>
>
> I don't think I'm trying to reinvent the wheel.. Just that I think there
> is so much of my own coding involved, I'm not sure if I'm going to be
> able to get away with anything less than writing it from scratch..
>
> Would be greatful for any advice,
>
> Kindest,
> Jimbo
>
>
>
>
>
> Jim Morrison
> _____________________________________
> Technology & Development Partner
> Isotope LLP
> 9, 2 Laura Place
> Bath, BA2 4BH
> UK
> +44 (0) 1225 446170
> +44 (0) 7940 937822
> www.mediaisotope.com