Re: Refactoring Create Order process during OFBiz DevelopersConference Sponsored by Hotwax Media

[Jacques Le Roux <ja...@les7arts.com>]

Daniel,

Just one very quick point : I do not totally agree about "Jira isn't working.". What is making you think that ? Please can you
elaborate ? From your comment we may find solutions...

Jacques

From: "Daniel Kunkel" <Da...@BioWaves.com>
To: <de...@ofbiz.apache.org>
Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 11:04 AM
Subject: Re: Refactoring Create Order process during OFBiz DevelopersConference Sponsored by Hotwax Media


> Hi
>
> First, please understand I hold you in incredibly high regard, and
> apologize for causing any frustration...  You and Andy have created an
> amazing software tool that I'm basing my business on, and you've given
> it away. I love that! As you can see, your efforts are now multiplying
> in to a system that has a life of its own, which will eventually change
> the face of many businesses throughout the world.
>
> During this process, you've needed to exercise great control in choosing
> what to allow into the project, and what to reject. Since I often update
> my production system to the svn head, I'm very glad someone is there
> watching, and if you think about it, it makes sense that access has been
> very limited to just the professionals that have devoted themselves to
> the project.
>
> However, as it grows, there are more and more newbies that want to help
> in their little way. Many *non-committers* who have wanted to give back
> to the project have been stifled and frustrated, often because their
> contributions were not appropriate, but sometimes simply because the
> committers are too busy to review/test/correct their contributions. In
> other cases, the resultant solutions are too specific to just their
> business, or as a employee, the business although willing to donate the
> code back, was not willing to devote the time needed to make the
> consumable by the project at large.
>
> So, what can we do to create a space where non-committers can share
> their bits with the community? Please understand, we are agreed that
> neither of us would want their contributions running on a system.
>
> - The source forge sandbox isn't really a good fit, because, as Chris
> has researched, the legal ramifications of donating it back to the
> project outweigh the benefits begotten from the group effort.
>
> - Forcing developers to work alone isn't working very well.
>
> - A sandbox with lots of committers isn't going to work. Thanks for
> explaining that in your e-mail, I didn't realize this wasn't workable
> till now.
>
> - Jira isn't working.
>
> - The wiki could possibly work, but it doesn't go through the legal
> process with each submission, and I cringe even thinking of trying to
> work with code in wiki. Eek.
>
> - Even using the wiki, to catalog which jira issues are "in play" is
> unwieldy. Patch nightmare actually.
>
> David, can you think of way to make a space in this community where the
> new/non-polished committers can easily share and play together with
> their ideas where they won't hurt the bigger project until the
> components are well proven?
>
> Would it work to have a sandbox that is managed by the existing
> committers, or perhaps a few new committers? As a committer, you
> wouldn't need to give nearly the same amount of time and attention to
> trying to make sure the commitment met best practices, free of bugs,
> etc. Any developer could share their stuff that they've implemented for
> their business, or other neat components. And, since the commitments
> would be in svn on the other side of the "Donate to the Apache
> Foundation legal radio button, it'd be easy for these developers to
> collaborate and slowly bring unworkable buggy messes into gold. Finally,
> users could easily find and try the components without mucking with
> patch files, etc.
>
> Thanks
>
> Daniel
>
> On Fri, 2007-01-26 at 00:45 -0700, David E. Jones wrote:
> > Okay, I just wrote a huge thing and deleted it. There might have been
> > good stuff in there, but I am really frustrated because I've said it
> > all before and based on the comments from Chris it doesn't seem like
> > anything it making it out there.
> >
> > If you're not a lawyer, then reference documents and processes
> > already established.
> >
> > I'm not even going to bother going into detail unless people are
> > willing to:
> >
> > 1. describe their understanding of how what they want to do would be
> > done under current policy
> > 2. describe why that doesn't work for what you want to do
> > 3. describe how the existing processes need to changed in order to
> > accommodate it
> >
> > A sandbox is a BAD BAD BAD BAD IDEA. Like you mentioned Daniel it
> > would create a huge mess. I'm afraid one of two things would happen:
> >
> > 1. nothing
> > 2. a lot
> >
> > In the case of number 1 it's not worth the effort to set it up. In
> > the case of #2 it would required more effort to administer and
> > monitor than we have resources for in OFBiz. There is no way I'd even
> > think about doing this under the ASF umbrella because I am not
> > willing to take on the responsibility of vetting a large number of
> > committers and recommending them as committers in the ASF, which is
> > BIG DEAL, and a responsibility and some people seem to be forgetting
> > that.
> >
> > If you want to be a committer you have to help with the project. You
> > have to take ownership of it, defend it, be committed to it, and so
> > on. Okay, now I'm doing what I was in the 2 page email I just deleted
> > and I'm stopping.
> >
> > If you want to know more about becoming and being a committer and
> > about contributing to OFBiz, READ THE DARN DOCUMENTS!
> >
> > I don't know WHY these questions are coming up here. Stop asking
> > them. Read the documents. I won't be baited into this any more. It's
> > a waste of time, and all based on supposition and not any real
> > problems or issues as far as I can see.
> >
> > If you develop something outside of OFBiz and want to contribute it,
> > here is the page describing how it works:
> >
> > http://incubator.apache.org/ip-clearance/index.html
> >
> > This is basically a streamlined incubation process for code going
> > into existing projects.
> >
> > If you really want to help and be involved in the project it means
> > working on OTHER PEOPLE'S STUFF, NOT YOUR OWN! Yes, it makes it
> > easier to get your own stuff in but if that is all you're about
> > related to the project, then being a committer isn't for you.
> >
> > If you want to know more about contributing and being a committer,
> > read the docs:
> >
> > http://docs.ofbiz.org/x/mQ
> > http://docs.ofbiz.org/x/r
> >
> > If you want to know more about licensing and legal issues, read the
> > docs:
> >
> > http://incubator.apache.org/incubation/Incubation_Policy.html
> > http://incubator.apache.org/ip-clearance/index.html
> > http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html
> > http://www.apache.org/foundation/licence-FAQ.html
> > http://www.apache.org/legal/src-headers.html
> >
> > For a lot of good information, broaden the scope and study under:
> >
> > http://www.apache.org/dev/
> >
> > These were not written because someone was looking for some
> > entertainment. They were written so things wouldn't have to be
> > explained over and over.
> >
> > I'm calling it a day now, as soon as I take care of some real issues,
> > and as long as my son with the flu doesn't throw up again. Sorry,
> > this is really frustrating, and really silly. Reality sucks, but we
> > all have to live with it.
> >
> > If people want to help, then help. Don't just ask for help. Start by
> > being a giver, not a taker.
> >
> > If this sounds a bit harsh, great! Go for a walk and think about how
> > things work in real life, then read it again. If you're still upset,
> > read it again. Then go read all of the documents referenced. Then if
> > you still have a question, send it on in, but PLEASE try to look at
> > it from the point of a MEMBER of the OFBiz community, and not a user
> > of OFBiz who really doesn't want to get involved.
> >
> > If you're asking "how are you going to solve this problem" then
> > you're asking the wrong question. If you want to participate as "how
> > can I solve this problem", if "I" can't, then do with "how can we
> > solve this problem". I don't mean that is what should be in your
> > email, I mean that is what should be in your head. If you can't find
> > an answer yourself that is 100% okay, just start a discussion and
> > accept what you asked for.
> >
> > If you don't like the answer explain why it doesn't work for you,
> > which brings us back to the beginning of this email...
> >
> > -David
> >
> >
> > On Jan 25, 2007, at 6:10 PM, Daniel Kunkel wrote:
> >
> > > David
> > >
> > > Can you explain your reticence to adding an Apache OFBiz sandbox where
> > > more members of the community could share their work?
> > >
> > > I can see this section possibly getting a disorganized over time with
> > > *junk*... but it can be deleted easily enough. As a top level project
> > > would it possible and better to organize a sub project for this?
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > >
> > > Daniel
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, 2007-01-25 at 12:41 -0800, Chris Howe wrote:
> > >> I think we're talking about two different things.  You're talking
> > >> about
> > >> developing and I'm talking about legal issues.  The manner of
> > >> developing was already discussed in OFBIZ-499.  The only legal way to
> > >> use JIRA to collaborate this type of thing is to keep sending updated
> > >> patches to JIRA or to have a committer review and add it to a
> > >> specialized application.  Neither one of these is speed of
> > >> development
> > >> friendly.
> > >>
> > >> Legal concerns wouldn't have been one of the primary driving
> > >> forces of
> > >> moving to the ASF if it were true that "we've done fine for years".
> > >> The project still has technical exposure to a C & D order as the CLA
> > >> only covered works the copyright holder gave directly to the ASF not
> > >> the works the copyright holder gave to the OFBIZ project prior to
> > >> incubation.  IANAL, and I don't think there is significant exposure,
> > >> but it is still there. That opinion isn't based on the vehicle
> > >> used to
> > >> create Apache OFBiz, but on the impression of kindheartedness from
> > >> the
> > >> members of the community prior to incubation.
> > >>
> > >> I don't want to speculate on the legal relationship the group that
> > >> worked on the anon checkout had, but I would suspect that it
> > >> generated
> > >> some negative legal exposure as well and that the proposed setup of
> > >> Developers Conference will add to that.
> > >>
> > >> The only feedback that I've received from the general incubator list
> > >> are speculations, all with the caveat that the poster is not a lawyer
> > >> either and no one has been willing to post it to the legal-discuss
> > >> list.
> > >>
> > >> This issue is one of the MAJOR reasons for the existence of non-
> > >> profit
> > >> entities like the ASF, FSF, and SPI.  So again, I ask you to
> > >> reconsider
> > >> the need of a more public sandbox where this kind of community
> > >> collaboration can be done without the complications of copyright
> > >> infringement, or at the very least pose the question to legal-discuss
> > >> for a formal opinion from those representing the ASF's interests.  It
> > >> is my understanding that when it's added to Apache owned SVN, ASF is
> > >> the copyright holder of the collective work instead of an impromptu
> > >> partnership where the individuals have no legal authority to offer a
> > >> collective work.
> > >>
> > >> Regards,
> > >> Chris
> > >> --- "David E. Jones" <jo...@hotwaxmedia.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>>
> > >>> I REALLY don't think you need a sandbox for this. We've done fine
> > >>> for
> > >>>
> > >>> years without one, even with the recently re-done ecommerce
> > >>> anonymous
> > >>>
> > >>> checkout process and alternative checkout processes which were
> > >>> developed entirely outside of OFBiz.
> > >>>
> > >>> Getting this stuff done is mostly a matter of knowing what you're
> > >>> doing and having a clear goal to work towards, a design of sorts if
> > >>> you will. A sandbox won't help that.
> > >>>
> > >>> Once you have a design you can start building it without touching
> > >>> the
> > >>>
> > >>> current stuff, just make it an alternate path and don't break
> > >>> anything existing along the way. Once it is complete, then another
> > >>> patch can go in to remove the old code.
> > >>>
> > >>> It's that simple. That process has been followed well over a hundred
> > >>>
> > >>> times over the life of OFBiz and even for those with commit access
> > >>> it's the only way to go. If you don't have commit access, it's even
> > >>> better because you can develop until you're stuck or out of time,
> > >>> then throw in a patch and have it committed without breaking
> > >>> anything
> > >>>
> > >>> else, even if the new thing isn't working 100%.
> > >>>
> > >>> -David
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> On Jan 25, 2007, at 12:05 PM, Chris Howe wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>> Hey Anil,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I've begun some of this already.  I'm taking the approach of
> > >>> passing
> > >>>> the cart to a simple method that first checks the order type and
> > >>> then
> > >>>> calls a method or service that is focused on that order type.  Each
> > >>>> order type service will call a multitude of methods/services that
> > >>>> prepare the cart data to be entered into the datasource.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I would love to collaborate on this, but because of the size, it's
> > >>>> rather difficult to do by passing patches back and forth through
> > >>> JIRA
> > >>>> without having a reference point that SVN provides.  This is one of
> > >>>> those things that the ofbiz-sandbox project would be good for, but
> > >>> it
> > >>>> still has a legal issue that will prevent it from being entered
> > >>> back
> > >>>> into the project.  I can as an individual grant Apache the license
> > >>> it
> > >>>> needs for the work I do, you as an individual can grant Apache the
> > >>>> license it needs for the work you do, but without each of us
> > >>> assuming
> > >>>> the liability of a partnership we cannot grant a license for the
> > >>> work
> > >>>> as a whole.  The only way around this is to use ofbiz-sandbox SVN
> > >>> and
> > >>>> make patches for each commit and each of us resubmit our own patch
> > >>> to
> > >>>> OFBiz JIRA with the order they need to be applied in.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> This would be sooooo much easier if the members of OFBiz PMC would
> > >>>> respond on including a public sandbox in Apache OFBiz as each SVN
> > >>>> commit will be licensed to Apache, and Apache will be the owner of
> > >>> the
> > >>>> work as a whole instead of an impromptu partnership being the
> > >>> owner.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> --- Anil Patel <to...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> I planning to participate in this developer conference. I am
> > >>>>> interested in
> > >>>>> contributing towards making Order Entry process more flexible. If
> > >>>>> there are
> > >>>>> Others who will be interested we can start some ground work. I
> > >>>>> request one
> > >>>>> of the commiters who has interest in this to Please lead this
> > >>> effort.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> The anonymous checkout process in Ecommerce component provides
> > >>> some
> > >>>>> high
> > >>>>> level guiding principals. Few things that I can think of are
> > >>>>> 1) moving some code that's embedded in Java classes into small
> > >>> simple
> > >>>>> methods.
> > >>>>> 2) Moving process control logic from event handlers to Controller
> > >>>>> file.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Any Ideas
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Regards
> > >>>>> Anil Patel
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> On 1/16/07, David E. Jones <jo...@hotwaxmedia.com> wrote:
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> NOTE: I'm just sending this to the dev list as this event is
> > >>> meant
> > >>>>>> mainly for those who want to be involved with development of
> > >>> OFBiz
> > >>>>>> itself. There will be a variety of projects going on and we hope
> > >>>>>> everyone will be able to work on both paid and fun stuff, but the
> > >>>>>> results will all be going right back into OFBiz. Still, everyone
> > >>> is
> > >>>>>> welcome to attend and join the "party" so if you know of someone
> > >>>>> who
> > >>>>>> might be interested but isn't subscribed to the dev mailing list,
> > >>>>>> please forward it on to them.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> NOTE2: While most of this conference will be centered around
> > >>>>>> development, if you aren't a developer it doesn't mean you can't
> > >>>>>> come. It would be great to have, for example, people like
> > >>> business
> > >>>>>> analysts and technical writers to help with requirements, design,
> > >>>>> and
> > >>>>>> documentation and such would be great!
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Included below is the original email about this, and most of the
> > >>>>>> information there is still applicable. Here are a few decisions,
> > >>>>>> based on feedback:
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> 1. the conference dates will be 5-9 March 2007 (Monday - Friday),
> > >>>>> and
> > >>>>>> may spill over into Sat the 10th
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> 2. you don't have to come for the entire conference, but we
> > >>>>> recommend
> > >>>>>> coming for at least Mon-Wed or Wed-Fri as we'll schedule
> > >>> big-group
> > >>>>>> meetings and any presentations for Wednesday; if you can come for
> > >>>>> the
> > >>>>>> whole week, please do, it'll be great!
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> 3. people are welcome to come and enjoy local attractions for the
> > >>>>>> weekend before and/or after (it will still be cool in the area
> > >>>>> here,
> > >>>>>> snowy in the mountains for skiing/boarding/snowmobiling, and
> > >>>>>> depending on weather it can be a great time for visiting the
> > >>>>> deserts
> > >>>>>> and canyons south of here)
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> 4. the cost to cover the meeting rooms, snacks, infra stuff, etc
> > >>>>> will
> > >>>>>> be $175 for the week (or $35/day) per person; we will have
> > >>> wireless
> > >>>>>> internet access, and I have a bridge if anyone needs wired
> > >>> access;
> > >>>>> we
> > >>>>>> will have at least 2 projectors and perhaps other large monitors
> > >>> to
> > >>>>>> facilitate group development and discussion
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> 5. meals, lodging, etc are not included in the main price, but
> > >>>>> we'll
> > >>>>>> have 5-9 rooms available in the building (for $20-30 per night,
> > >>>>> first
> > >>>>>> come first serve); there is a decent hotel in town as well for
> > >>>>> around
> > >>>>>> $80 per night (contact me for details); for meals there are
> > >>> various
> > >>>>>> restaurants within walking distance
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> 6. the attendance cap is initially 20 people; there seems to be a
> > >>>>> lot
> > >>>>>> of interest in this, so if we go over that we'll raise it by
> > >>>>> perhaps
> > >>>>>> 5-10 more people and convert some other adjacent rooms in the
> > >>>>>> building to be for group meeting use as well (we're planning on 2
> > >>>>> big
> > >>>>>> rooms, plus a fairly big room with a small kitchen in it)
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> 7. the actual development goals are not finalized, but there is
> > >>>>> quite
> > >>>>>> a bit of interest in various things on the original list I
> > >>> included
> > >>>>>> (below), the big things seem to be testing infrastructure and
> > >>>>> project
> > >>>>>> management functionality
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> To register (ASAP please, to make my job of planning easier!),
> > >>>>> please
> > >>>>>> contact me by email (jonesde@hotwaxmedia.com) with the following
> > >>>>>> information:
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> 1. your name, company name, contact info (phone, email if
> > >>> different
> > >>>>>> than from address)
> > >>>>>> 2. how many in your group (if more than one, their names too)
> > >>>>>> 3. plans (as much as known) for how many days and which days
> > >>>>>> 4. lodging preference - in the building (private rooms, shared
> > >>>>>> toilets/showers) how many rooms, or nearby hotel (I'll respond
> > >>> with
> > >>>>>> contact info for the nice place close by, or there is a "fleabag"
> > >>>>>> motel place too though not sure if I'd recommend it)
> > >>>>>> 5. snack/diet preferences
> > >>>>>> 6. local travel plans: do you need a ride, or do you plan to
> > >>> rent/
> > >>>
> > >> === message truncated ===
> > >>
> > > -- 
> > > Daniel
> > >
> > > *-.,,.-*"*-.,,.-*"*-.,,.-*"*-.,,.-*"*-.,,.-*"*-.,,.-*"*-.,,.-*"*-
> > > Have a GREAT Day!
> > >
> > > Daniel Kunkel           DanielKunkel@BioWaves.com
> > > BioWaves, LLC           http://www.BioWaves.com
> > > 14150 NE 20th St. Suite F1
> > > Bellevue, WA 98007
> > > 800-734-3588    425-895-0050
> > > http://www.Apartment-Pets.com  http://www.Illusion-Optical.com
> > > http://www.Card-Offer.com      http://www.RackWine.com
> > > http://www.JokesBlonde.com     http://www.Brain-Fun.com
> > > *-.,,.-*"*-.,,.-*"*-.,,.-*"*-.,,.-*"*-.,,.-*"*-.,,.-*"*-.,,.-*"*-
> > >
> >