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Posted to users@tomcat.apache.org by André Warnier <aw...@ice-sa.com> on 2008/10/16 09:23:50 UTC
Appeal to Tomcat developers
Dear Tomcat developers,
this is a humble appeal.
I know I have in the past been "over the top" on this subject, and for
that I apologise.
The appeal is about Tomcat logging.
I will venture a few risky bets :
1) for every Tomcat used in a development context, there are 100 used in
a production environment
2) for every Tomcat developer, there are 1000 Tomcat users
3) for at least 900 out of these 1000 Tomcat users, the current way to
configure/manage Tomcat logging is too difficult to understand
From earlier Tomcat expert's messages here, I understand that the
previous logging methods were technically flawed, and that the new
methods, technically, are far superior.
But from tens of user's messages on this list, it is clear that in terms
of setup and configuration, the new methods are too complicated, and the
available documentation is too obscure for most of the Tomcat users that
are not themselves Java or Tomcat experts.
I realise that this may not be a very exciting subject to work on for a
Tomcat developer. Tomcat is a nice package, appreciated by many.
But I fear that the mere complexity of controlling the logging may deter
a number of users and system administrators from using it, or from
liking it. And that is probably not an outcome that any Tomcat
developer would like either.
I would offer to help, but I can't, because I am not capable of it. I
am basically a support and system admin guy in a small company, and I
handle a dozen systems with several hundred packages on it. My highest
Java achievement is a servlet filter, and even there I copied most of
the lines from examples I found.
Of the dozen Tomcats I handle at the sysadmin level, none are the
"official" distribution. There are many reasons for that, the main one
being that most of the systems on which we manage applications do not
belong to us but to customers, and they decide what they install and
according to which rules.
Basically thus, what I am saying is that 90% of Tomcat sysadmins and
users have to live with the Tomcat they get, and the Tomcat they get, in
terms of logging, is not understandable to them, and that it makes them
uncomfortable.
André
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Re: Appeal to Tomcat developers
Posted by "Mark H. Wood" <mw...@IUPUI.Edu>.
On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 10:01:30AM +0200, Johnny Kewl wrote:
> The thing that has alway amazed me... we use JMX, we have this complex
> logging engine, but tomcat is a big powerful web server... is it only me,
> but how come that cant be presented as a web page.... you just address
> /myserver/manager/logs
Because it is waiting for YOU to write it?
--
Mark H. Wood, Lead System Programmer mwood@IUPUI.Edu
Typically when a software vendor says that a product is "intuitive" he
means the exact opposite.
Re: Appeal to Tomcat developers
Posted by Johnny Kewl <jo...@kewlstuff.co.za>.
----- Original Message -----
From: "André Warnier" <aw...@ice-sa.com>
To: "Tomcat Users List" <us...@tomcat.apache.org>
Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 9:23 AM
Subject: Appeal to Tomcat developers
> Dear Tomcat developers,
>
> this is a humble appeal.
> I know I have in the past been "over the top" on this subject, and for
> that I apologise.
>
> The appeal is about Tomcat logging.
>
> I will venture a few risky bets :
> 1) for every Tomcat used in a development context, there are 100 used in a
> production environment
> 2) for every Tomcat developer, there are 1000 Tomcat users
> 3) for at least 900 out of these 1000 Tomcat users, the current way to
> configure/manage Tomcat logging is too difficult to understand
I think you just anti tomcat... you got a bad attitude ;)
You always ask so nicely, how can they refuse you ;)
Andre I feel the same way... Tomcat is magic, but I think the logging sucks.
You on linux, wait till you on windows and the file wont even opne because
TC is using it.
And files that carry date stamps... makes it difficult to find stuff and
tell another program to use it, it doesnt even know the name.
The thing that has alway amazed me... we use JMX, we have this complex
logging engine, but tomcat is a big powerful web server... is it only me,
but how come that cant be presented as a web page.... you just address
/myserver/manager/logs
Or /myserver/manager/JMXStuff
I also think its a missed opportunity... its like you built a ferrari, but
still use a wheel barrow to go get stuff from the shop... if you know what I
mean.
... theres probably a good reason for it but yes
+1
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Re: Appeal to Tomcat developers
Posted by Mikolaj Rydzewski <mi...@ceti.pl>.
David kerber wrote:
> For my part, I generally agree with the OP. Specifically, the show
> stopper for me is that the documentation isn't detailed enough at the
> level of the application and administrator level, and especially
> doesn't give enough examples of the different methods of logging. I
> have looked at it extensively while reworking the app I inherited, and
> couldn't easily figure out how to configure logging to keep my app's
> log writes separate from Tomcat's without lots of experimentation
> (which didn't have time for), so I just left *everything* going to
> stdout. Not the preferred method, I know, but how to configure it
> otherwise was not clear enough for me.
It's not Tomcat's fault. Sometimes you have to deal with webapp that
uses some custom loggin solution (not to mention System.out....). In
some part it's general Java issue.
What I would like best is possibility to change logging levels (I use
log4j) on the fly. Using e.g. JMX.
--
Mikolaj Rydzewski <mi...@ceti.pl>
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Re: Appeal to Tomcat developers
Posted by Stephen Caine <st...@commongrnd.com>.
Andre,
In regards to contacting IS people (not developers or specialists) who
use Tomcat in production environments, please contact me off-list. I
think I can help to point you in the right direction and get you
access to the resources you are requesting.
Thank you,
Stephen Caine
CommonGround Softworks, Inc.
stephen@commongrnd.com
>
> In my original post (and I apologise if this was not clear enough),
> I am specifically trying to speak for the sysadmin / average Tomcat
> user, and appealing to experts (such as you probably), to help make
> it simpler for these people to use and configure Tomcat. Please.
>
> I have no doubt that for experts, the logging as it is now is
> probably clear, effective, efficient, flexible and everything you
> would ask for.
>
> log4j is a beautiful package, but it is a monster, requiring deep
> Java knowledge, and even so, many hours of dedicated work to dominate.
> From the look of it, Commons Logging is a similar piece of cake.
>
> No doubt that for someone who mainly does Java programming for a
> living, it is worth the effort.
> But many (the majority ?) of Tomcat users and administrators do not
> have that time, at least not for that package alone, when they
> simultaneously have to learn a little bit of many other packages.
> That does not mean that they don't like Tomcat, at least not yet.
>
> Or else, shall we say up front that Tomcat is a development tool, to
> be used exclusively by Java and Tomcat programming specialists, and
> not in production environments ?
>
>
>
>
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RE: Appeal to Tomcat developers
Posted by Peter Crowther <Pe...@melandra.com>.
I think there's a miscommunication going on.
> From: Leon Rosenberg [mailto:rosenberg.leon@googlemail.com]
> well our [...]
> admins are well able to configure tomcat logging as they wish (mainly
> by using log4j configs we (developers) [...]).
OK. So your admins have in-house developers to turn to.
[...]
> I would doubt that the majority of tomcat users (i.e. java developers)
[...]
Andre's original premise is that the majority of Tomcat users are *not* Java developers. They are, instead, people who have a webapp they need to run and maintain. They have downloaded Tomcat in order to run it.
I agree with Andre. I think his 90% estimate is high, but I suspect pure admins are in the majority. Certainly I think equating "tomcat user" with "java developer" is naïve.
- Peter
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Re: Appeal to Tomcat developers
Posted by Leon Rosenberg <ro...@googlemail.com>.
On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 3:42 PM, André Warnier <aw...@ice-sa.com> wrote:
> Leon Rosenberg wrote:
> [...]
>>
>> I am sorry, but do you always log to system.out in your applications?
>> Maybe you should take a look at some of numerous logging projects,
>> starting with
>> log4j as the most prominent.
>>
>> http://logging.apache.org/log4j/1.2/index.html
>>
>
> With utmost respect, Leon, but this is Off-Topic.
> (and even more so is you next post)
yes, it is, it was a reply to an off-topic post by david :-) but it's
still OT, so please accept my apologies.
>
> In my original post (and I apologise if this was not clear enough), I am
> specifically trying to speak for the sysadmin / average Tomcat user, and
> appealing to experts (such as you probably), to help make it simpler for
> these people to use and configure Tomcat. Please.
well our (100 employees company with about 20 tomcats in production
environment and many thousands of users online just as we speak)
admins are well able to configure tomcat logging as they wish (mainly
by using log4j configs we (developers) create and
redirecting them to the syslog (an appender in log4j writing to syslog).
They are no java experts and actually have no java or development
background, but with some time invested in googling or asking people
on lists / irc, they manage their tasks.
>
> I have no doubt that for experts, the logging as it is now is probably
> clear, effective, efficient, flexible and everything you would ask for.
>
> log4j is a beautiful package, but it is a monster, requiring deep Java
> knowledge, and even so, many hours of dedicated work to dominate.
> From the look of it, Commons Logging is a similar piece of cake.
not really. you need about 15 minutes to start using log4j. Of course
deep understanding and tuned configuration will require more time.
>
> No doubt that for someone who mainly does Java programming for a living, it
> is worth the effort.
> But many (the majority ?) of Tomcat users and administrators do not have
> that time, at least not for that package alone, when they simultaneously
> have to learn a little bit of many other packages.
> That does not mean that they don't like Tomcat, at least not yet.
>
> Or else, shall we say up front that Tomcat is a development tool, to be used
> exclusively by Java and Tomcat programming specialists, and not in
> production environments ?
I would doubt that the majority of tomcat users (i.e. java developers)
can't use logging. Its one of the first thing you need to learn on the
way to become professional java developer.
As for administrators, they (at least those who understand their
profession) are used to read docs and tomcat logging is well
documented. Besides, why would they be interested in tomcat logs, it
just works and ogs are empty in production environment (at least they
should be :-)))
regards
Leon
P.S. the time you invested in this thread would probably be sufficient
to learn to use log4j ;-)
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Re: Appeal to Tomcat developers
Posted by André Warnier <aw...@ice-sa.com>.
Leon Rosenberg wrote:
[...]
>
> I am sorry, but do you always log to system.out in your applications?
> Maybe you should take a look at some of numerous logging projects,
> starting with
> log4j as the most prominent.
>
> http://logging.apache.org/log4j/1.2/index.html
>
With utmost respect, Leon, but this is Off-Topic.
(and even more so is you next post)
In my original post (and I apologise if this was not clear enough), I am
specifically trying to speak for the sysadmin / average Tomcat user, and
appealing to experts (such as you probably), to help make it simpler for
these people to use and configure Tomcat. Please.
I have no doubt that for experts, the logging as it is now is probably
clear, effective, efficient, flexible and everything you would ask for.
log4j is a beautiful package, but it is a monster, requiring deep Java
knowledge, and even so, many hours of dedicated work to dominate.
From the look of it, Commons Logging is a similar piece of cake.
No doubt that for someone who mainly does Java programming for a living,
it is worth the effort.
But many (the majority ?) of Tomcat users and administrators do not have
that time, at least not for that package alone, when they simultaneously
have to learn a little bit of many other packages.
That does not mean that they don't like Tomcat, at least not yet.
Or else, shall we say up front that Tomcat is a development tool, to be
used exclusively by Java and Tomcat programming specialists, and not in
production environments ?
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Re: Appeal to Tomcat developers
Posted by Leon Rosenberg <ro...@googlemail.com>.
On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 3:06 PM, David kerber <dc...@verizon.net> wrote:
> Leon Rosenberg wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 2:48 PM, David kerber <dc...@verizon.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> For my part, I generally agree with the OP. Specifically, the show
>>> stopper
>>> for me is that the documentation isn't detailed enough at the level of
>>> the
>>> application and administrator level, and especially doesn't give enough
>>> examples of the different methods of logging. I have looked at it
>>> extensively while reworking the app I inherited, and couldn't easily
>>> figure
>>> out how to configure logging to keep my app's log writes separate from
>>> Tomcat's without lots of experimentation (which didn't have time for), so
>>> I
>>> just left *everything* going to stdout. Not the preferred method, I
>>> know,
>>> but how to configure it otherwise was not clear enough for me.
>>>
>>> Dave
>>>
>>
>>
>> I am sorry, but do you always log to system.out in your applications?
>> Maybe you should take a look at some of numerous logging projects,
>> starting with
>> log4j as the most prominent.
>>
>> http://logging.apache.org/log4j/1.2/index.html
>>
>
> Yes, system.out, and that is my point: I have looked at the log4j docs
> extensively, and could not figure out how to use it without investing more
> time than I had available. There either weren't enough practical examples,
> or not enough detailed instructions.
> Essentially I'm agreeing with the OP that either configuring it is too
> complex, or the docs don't make it clear how to do it simply. I'm not sure
> which is really the problem, but I suspect it's the docs rather than the
> process itself.
>
> D
Errm, I'm sorry, but how is that related to tomcat?
Basically you have to add one line to your class to use log4j:
private static Logger log = Logger.getLogger(CurrentClassName.class);
now anywhere in the class just do :
log.info("message");
or
try{
do_something();
}catch(Exception e){
log.error("methodname("+parameters+")", e);
}
============
You need to more things to configure it properly, one of them is
nearly done automatically, but to be sure just create a context
listener and add to contextinitialization:
DOMConfigurator.configureAndWatch(pathtolog4j.xml)
and now an example for the log4j xml
<appender name="ErrorAppender" class="org.apache.log4j.RollingFileAppender">
<param name="File" value="logs/error.log" />
<param name="Threshold" value="ERROR" />
<param name="MaxFileSize" value="100MB" />
<param name="MaxBackupIndex" value="5" />
<layout class="org.apache.log4j.PatternLayout">
<param name="ConversionPattern"
value="%r %d{ISO8601} %-5p %c - %m%n"/>
</layout>
</appender>
<logger name="com.bla.your.package" additivity="true">
<level value="ERROR"/>
<appender-ref ref="ErrorAppender"/>
</logger>
and so on...
read docs on more :-)
Leon
>
>
>
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Re: Appeal to Tomcat developers
Posted by David kerber <dc...@verizon.net>.
Leon Rosenberg wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 2:48 PM, David kerber <dc...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> For my part, I generally agree with the OP. Specifically, the show stopper
>> for me is that the documentation isn't detailed enough at the level of the
>> application and administrator level, and especially doesn't give enough
>> examples of the different methods of logging. I have looked at it
>> extensively while reworking the app I inherited, and couldn't easily figure
>> out how to configure logging to keep my app's log writes separate from
>> Tomcat's without lots of experimentation (which didn't have time for), so I
>> just left *everything* going to stdout. Not the preferred method, I know,
>> but how to configure it otherwise was not clear enough for me.
>>
>> Dave
>>
>
>
> I am sorry, but do you always log to system.out in your applications?
> Maybe you should take a look at some of numerous logging projects,
> starting with
> log4j as the most prominent.
>
> http://logging.apache.org/log4j/1.2/index.html
>
Yes, system.out, and that is my point: I have looked at the log4j docs
extensively, and could not figure out how to use it without investing
more time than I had available. There either weren't enough practical
examples, or not enough detailed instructions.
Essentially I'm agreeing with the OP that either configuring it is too
complex, or the docs don't make it clear how to do it simply. I'm not
sure which is really the problem, but I suspect it's the docs rather
than the process itself.
D
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Re: Appeal to Tomcat developers
Posted by Leon Rosenberg <ro...@googlemail.com>.
On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 2:48 PM, David kerber <dc...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> For my part, I generally agree with the OP. Specifically, the show stopper
> for me is that the documentation isn't detailed enough at the level of the
> application and administrator level, and especially doesn't give enough
> examples of the different methods of logging. I have looked at it
> extensively while reworking the app I inherited, and couldn't easily figure
> out how to configure logging to keep my app's log writes separate from
> Tomcat's without lots of experimentation (which didn't have time for), so I
> just left *everything* going to stdout. Not the preferred method, I know,
> but how to configure it otherwise was not clear enough for me.
>
> Dave
I am sorry, but do you always log to system.out in your applications?
Maybe you should take a look at some of numerous logging projects,
starting with
log4j as the most prominent.
http://logging.apache.org/log4j/1.2/index.html
Leon
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Re: Appeal to Tomcat developers
Posted by Gregor Schneider <rc...@googlemail.com>.
Hm, I guess I disagree.
Tomcat is using / supporting the standard logging-features from Java,
and I think this is the way it should be.
If the Java Community decides for a new way of logging, TC may implement it.
For us, we just configure TC to use log4j, and it works like charm.
Sure, it's no "out-of-the-box"-software and you'll have to read up a
few things, but this is the case for most components (i.e. Hibernate,
Struts etc.).
When talking about real world-applications in the industry, in banks
(a few are still operating), insurance-companies etc., you need a very
specific logging and it should be highly customizable.
Therefore, the given solutions a quite good.
Sure, maybe a bit overloaded for a small company's webapp, however,
they can stick to the default logging behaviour.
Cheers
Gregor
--
what's puzzlin' you, is the nature of my game
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Re: Appeal to Tomcat developers
Posted by David kerber <dc...@verizon.net>.
Peter Crowther wrote:
>> From: André Warnier [mailto:aw@ice-sa.com]
>> From earlier Tomcat expert's messages here, I understand that the
>> previous logging methods were technically flawed, and that the new
>> methods, technically, are far superior.
>>
>> But from tens of user's messages on this list, it is clear
>> that in terms
>> of setup and configuration, the new methods are too
>> complicated, and the
>> available documentation is too obscure for most of the Tomcat
>> users that
>> are not themselves Java or Tomcat experts.
>>
>
> What would you change?
>
For my part, I generally agree with the OP. Specifically, the show
stopper for me is that the documentation isn't detailed enough at the
level of the application and administrator level, and especially doesn't
give enough examples of the different methods of logging. I have looked
at it extensively while reworking the app I inherited, and couldn't
easily figure out how to configure logging to keep my app's log writes
separate from Tomcat's without lots of experimentation (which didn't
have time for), so I just left *everything* going to stdout. Not the
preferred method, I know, but how to configure it otherwise was not
clear enough for me.
Dave
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RE: Appeal to Tomcat developers
Posted by Peter Crowther <Pe...@melandra.com>.
> From: André Warnier [mailto:aw@ice-sa.com]
> From earlier Tomcat expert's messages here, I understand that the
> previous logging methods were technically flawed, and that the new
> methods, technically, are far superior.
>
> But from tens of user's messages on this list, it is clear
> that in terms
> of setup and configuration, the new methods are too
> complicated, and the
> available documentation is too obscure for most of the Tomcat
> users that
> are not themselves Java or Tomcat experts.
What would you change?
- Peter
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