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Posted to dev@commons.apache.org by Shawn Bayern <ba...@essentially.net> on 2002/07/18 23:16:36 UTC
Proposal: JSP/JSTL expression language
Commons developers,
Hi there. I'm the reference-implementation lead for the JSP Standard Tag
Library (JSTL), which includes an expression language ("EL") that will
become the basis of JSP 2.0's expression language. Because of the number
of different projects that need the EL, many of us thought it wise to
propose that Jakarta Commons host the implementation. This will also
allow the addition of nonstandard features that some people desire, so
long as the code base has a mode of operation whereby the JSTL 1.0 and JSP
2.0 standards (separately) obtain.
I've written a brief proposal and posted it here:
http://www.apache.org/~shawn/el-proposal.html
Please let me know if you have any questions or need more information. I
have several specific mechanisms in mind concerning how to accommodate
multiple standards and products with the same code base; I can describe
them in more detail if anyone's interested.
Thanks,
--
Shawn Bayern
"JSTL in Action" http://www.jstlbook.com
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Re: Proposal: JSP/JSTL expression language
Posted by Glenn Nielsen <gl...@voyager.apg.more.net>.
+1
Shawn Bayern wrote:
> Commons developers,
>
> Hi there. I'm the reference-implementation lead for the JSP Standard Tag
> Library (JSTL), which includes an expression language ("EL") that will
> become the basis of JSP 2.0's expression language. Because of the number
> of different projects that need the EL, many of us thought it wise to
> propose that Jakarta Commons host the implementation. This will also
> allow the addition of nonstandard features that some people desire, so
> long as the code base has a mode of operation whereby the JSTL 1.0 and JSP
> 2.0 standards (separately) obtain.
>
> I've written a brief proposal and posted it here:
>
> http://www.apache.org/~shawn/el-proposal.html
>
> Please let me know if you have any questions or need more information. I
> have several specific mechanisms in mind concerning how to accommodate
> multiple standards and products with the same code base; I can describe
> them in more detail if anyone's interested.
>
> Thanks,
>
>
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Glenn Nielsen glenn@more.net | /* Spelin donut madder |
MOREnet System Programming | * if iz ina coment. |
Missouri Research and Education Network | */ |
----------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Proposal: JSP/JSTL expression language
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@adeptra.com>.
On 7/19/02 7:44 AM, "Jeff Turner" <je...@socialchange.net.au> wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 18, 2002 at 09:30:30PM -0400, Shawn Bayern wrote:
> ...
>>> Though I'm not sure about the name 'el', because what with jexl and
>>> jxpath, it certainly isn't the only "expression language" at Jakarta.
>>
>> Indeed. I never intend this, but everything I name somehow ends up with
>> the most generic name possible. (JSTL's implementation at Jakarta is
>> called, as a product name, the "Standard Taglib." The centralized
>> authentication and single sign-on system I wrote for Yale is called the
>> "Central Authentication Service." And so forth.) :-)
>>
>> So I'm all for a better name. James Strachan suggested "JEL," but that
>> might be confusing against Jelly. It's unfortunate that "Espresso" is
>> taken, since it's apt. It might be cute to name it after a salient
>> syntactic feature, like "Dot." Any better ideas?
>
> jstel, jsp-el, jspel. skippy (don't ask..).
> Isn't bikeshed-painting fun :)
> 'el' works for me.
Jspel :)
Like but different than Jexel, but I wonder if you can use 'JSP' w/o
invoking the legal wrath of Sun...
--
Geir Magnusson Jr.
Research & Development, Adeptra Inc.
geirm@adeptra.com
+1-203-247-1713
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Re: Proposal: JSP/JSTL expression language
Posted by Jeff Turner <je...@socialchange.net.au>.
On Thu, Jul 18, 2002 at 09:30:30PM -0400, Shawn Bayern wrote:
...
> > Though I'm not sure about the name 'el', because what with jexl and
> > jxpath, it certainly isn't the only "expression language" at Jakarta.
>
> Indeed. I never intend this, but everything I name somehow ends up with
> the most generic name possible. (JSTL's implementation at Jakarta is
> called, as a product name, the "Standard Taglib." The centralized
> authentication and single sign-on system I wrote for Yale is called the
> "Central Authentication Service." And so forth.) :-)
>
> So I'm all for a better name. James Strachan suggested "JEL," but that
> might be confusing against Jelly. It's unfortunate that "Espresso" is
> taken, since it's apt. It might be cute to name it after a salient
> syntactic feature, like "Dot." Any better ideas?
jstel, jsp-el, jspel. skippy (don't ask..).
Isn't bikeshed-painting fun :)
'el' works for me.
--Jeff
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Re: Proposal: JSP/JSTL expression language
Posted by Shawn Bayern <ba...@essentially.net>.
It also might not be the worst thing in the world to call it "JSPScript."
(Or maybe it would?) :-)
Shawn
On 19 Jul 2002, Martin van den Bemt wrote:
> Crossed my mind.. But (at least for me) it's a strange way to write that
> name (assuming a girls name that is..)
>
> Mvgr,
> Martin
>
> On Fri, 2002-07-19 at 14:59, Jeff Dever wrote:
> > Or perhaps Estel.
> >
> >
> > bob mcwhirter wrote:
> >
> > > There's also Elijay, which is the Apple capital of the south, I think.
> > >
> > > -bob
> > >
> > > On 19 Jul 2002, Martin van den Bemt wrote:
> > >
> > > > Why not name it Estelle ? Far fetched maybe, but a nice name ;)
> > > >
> > > > Btw +1 on getting it into commons..
> > > >
> > > > Mvgr,
> > > > Martin
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, 2002-07-19 at 03:30, Shawn Bayern wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > So I'm all for a better name. James Strachan suggested "JEL," but that
> > > > > might be confusing against Jelly. It's unfortunate that "Espresso" is
> > > > > taken, since it's apt. It might be cute to name it after a salient
> > > > > syntactic feature, like "Dot." Any better ideas?
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > > > For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Bob McWhirter bob@werken.com
> > > The Werken Company http://werken.com/
> > >
> > > --
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> >
> >
>
>
>
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Re: Proposal: JSP/JSTL expression language
Posted by Martin van den Bemt <ml...@mvdb.net>.
Crossed my mind.. But (at least for me) it's a strange way to write that
name (assuming a girls name that is..)
Mvgr,
Martin
On Fri, 2002-07-19 at 14:59, Jeff Dever wrote:
> Or perhaps Estel.
>
>
> bob mcwhirter wrote:
>
> > There's also Elijay, which is the Apple capital of the south, I think.
> >
> > -bob
> >
> > On 19 Jul 2002, Martin van den Bemt wrote:
> >
> > > Why not name it Estelle ? Far fetched maybe, but a nice name ;)
> > >
> > > Btw +1 on getting it into commons..
> > >
> > > Mvgr,
> > > Martin
> > >
> > > On Fri, 2002-07-19 at 03:30, Shawn Bayern wrote:
> > > >
> > > > So I'm all for a better name. James Strachan suggested "JEL," but that
> > > > might be confusing against Jelly. It's unfortunate that "Espresso" is
> > > > taken, since it's apt. It might be cute to name it after a salient
> > > > syntactic feature, like "Dot." Any better ideas?
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > >
> >
> > --
> > Bob McWhirter bob@werken.com
> > The Werken Company http://werken.com/
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>
>
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Re: Proposal: JSP/JSTL expression language
Posted by Jeff Dever <js...@sympatico.ca>.
Or perhaps Estel.
bob mcwhirter wrote:
> There's also Elijay, which is the Apple capital of the south, I think.
>
> -bob
>
> On 19 Jul 2002, Martin van den Bemt wrote:
>
> > Why not name it Estelle ? Far fetched maybe, but a nice name ;)
> >
> > Btw +1 on getting it into commons..
> >
> > Mvgr,
> > Martin
> >
> > On Fri, 2002-07-19 at 03:30, Shawn Bayern wrote:
> > >
> > > So I'm all for a better name. James Strachan suggested "JEL," but that
> > > might be confusing against Jelly. It's unfortunate that "Espresso" is
> > > taken, since it's apt. It might be cute to name it after a salient
> > > syntactic feature, like "Dot." Any better ideas?
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> >
>
> --
> Bob McWhirter bob@werken.com
> The Werken Company http://werken.com/
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
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Re: Proposal: JSP/JSTL expression language
Posted by bob mcwhirter <bo...@werken.com>.
There's also Elijay, which is the Apple capital of the south, I think.
-bob
On 19 Jul 2002, Martin van den Bemt wrote:
> Why not name it Estelle ? Far fetched maybe, but a nice name ;)
>
> Btw +1 on getting it into commons..
>
> Mvgr,
> Martin
>
> On Fri, 2002-07-19 at 03:30, Shawn Bayern wrote:
> >
> > So I'm all for a better name. James Strachan suggested "JEL," but that
> > might be confusing against Jelly. It's unfortunate that "Espresso" is
> > taken, since it's apt. It might be cute to name it after a salient
> > syntactic feature, like "Dot." Any better ideas?
> >
>
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>
--
Bob McWhirter bob@werken.com
The Werken Company http://werken.com/
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Re: Proposal: JSP/JSTL expression language
Posted by Martin van den Bemt <ml...@mvdb.net>.
Why not name it Estelle ? Far fetched maybe, but a nice name ;)
Btw +1 on getting it into commons..
Mvgr,
Martin
On Fri, 2002-07-19 at 03:30, Shawn Bayern wrote:
>
> So I'm all for a better name. James Strachan suggested "JEL," but that
> might be confusing against Jelly. It's unfortunate that "Espresso" is
> taken, since it's apt. It might be cute to name it after a salient
> syntactic feature, like "Dot." Any better ideas?
>
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Re: Proposal: JSP/JSTL expression language
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@adeptra.com>.
On 7/18/02 9:30 PM, "Shawn Bayern" <ba...@essentially.net> wrote:
>
> On Fri, 19 Jul 2002, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>
>> I am all for JSTL becoming a Commons component if Jexl can as well.
>> If JSTL rules out other competing implementations, I'm -1
>
> Don't see any reason they should be exclusive.
Great - sometimes the fact that something is a standard gets in the way :)
I'll put together a jexl proposal - maybe they can show up together.
--
Geir Magnusson Jr.
Research & Development, Adeptra Inc.
geirm@adeptra.com
+1-203-247-1713
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Re: Proposal: JSP/JSTL expression language
Posted by Shawn Bayern <ba...@essentially.net>.
Various responses --
On Thu, 18 Jul 2002, Craig R. McClanahan wrote:
> I would imagine that we'll have a set of unit tests in this
> repository, just as we do for the other commons packages. It might be
> possible to adopt some sort of "here's a set of expressions and
> expected values" things as part of that, which could be used for
> testing multiple expression language implementations as part of this.
We actually have something like this already, which I'd plan on migrating
over too. It's a set of positive and negative regression tests for
parsing, and a (limited) framework for testing evaluation. Some tests
will need to be reworked to accommodate both a JSP 1.0 and JSP 2.0
environment.
On Thu, 18 Jul 2002, Jeff Turner wrote:
> +1
>
> Though I'm not sure about the name 'el', because what with jexl and
> jxpath, it certainly isn't the only "expression language" at Jakarta.
Indeed. I never intend this, but everything I name somehow ends up with
the most generic name possible. (JSTL's implementation at Jakarta is
called, as a product name, the "Standard Taglib." The centralized
authentication and single sign-on system I wrote for Yale is called the
"Central Authentication Service." And so forth.) :-)
So I'm all for a better name. James Strachan suggested "JEL," but that
might be confusing against Jelly. It's unfortunate that "Espresso" is
taken, since it's apt. It might be cute to name it after a salient
syntactic feature, like "Dot." Any better ideas?
On Fri, 19 Jul 2002, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> I am all for JSTL becoming a Commons component if Jexl can as well.
> If JSTL rules out other competing implementations, I'm -1
Don't see any reason they should be exclusive. I'm actually quite pleased
that Jexl exists so that the "compliant" EL doesn't become too much of a
playground for new features. On the other hand, like I said, I'm not
adverse to having a mode for the EL whereby extra, non-JSP features are
added; in fact, this might be necessary to support Faces and other clients
of the EL.
(By the way, just to get into some specifics, I'm envisioning an interface
along the lines of some factory that lets you return an instance of
"Evaluator" -- the generic hanger for methods to validate and evaluate
expressions -- appropriate to the standard (or custom product) you're
looking for. So you could say, "Give me a JSTL 1.0 expression
interpreter," "Give me the latest version of the JSP expression
interpreter," and so forth.)
--
Shawn Bayern
"JSTL in Action" http://www.jstlbook.com
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Re: Proposal: JSP/JSTL expression language
Posted by Jeff Turner <je...@socialchange.net.au>.
+1
Though I'm not sure about the name 'el', because what with jexl and
jxpath, it certainly isn't the only "expression language" at Jakarta.
--Jeff
On Thu, Jul 18, 2002 at 05:16:36PM -0400, Shawn Bayern wrote:
> Commons developers,
>
> Hi there. I'm the reference-implementation lead for the JSP Standard Tag
> Library (JSTL), which includes an expression language ("EL") that will
> become the basis of JSP 2.0's expression language. Because of the number
> of different projects that need the EL, many of us thought it wise to
> propose that Jakarta Commons host the implementation. This will also
> allow the addition of nonstandard features that some people desire, so
> long as the code base has a mode of operation whereby the JSTL 1.0 and JSP
> 2.0 standards (separately) obtain.
>
> I've written a brief proposal and posted it here:
>
> http://www.apache.org/~shawn/el-proposal.html
>
> Please let me know if you have any questions or need more information. I
> have several specific mechanisms in mind concerning how to accommodate
> multiple standards and products with the same code base; I can describe
> them in more detail if anyone's interested.
>
> Thanks,
>
> --
> Shawn Bayern
> "JSTL in Action" http://www.jstlbook.com
>
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Re: Proposal: JSP/JSTL expression language
Posted by "Craig R. McClanahan" <cr...@apache.org>.
On Thu, 18 Jul 2002, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 18:53:27 -0400
> From: Geir Magnusson Jr. <ge...@adeptra.com>
> Reply-To: Jakarta Commons Developers List <co...@jakarta.apache.org>
> To: Jakarta Commons Developers List <co...@jakarta.apache.org>
> Subject: Re: Proposal: JSP/JSTL expression language
>
> On 7/18/02 5:44 PM, "Shawn Bayern" <ba...@essentially.net> wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 18 Jul 2002, bob mcwhirter wrote:
> >
> >> Is this different from Jexl, which I thought was part of the reference
> >> impl of the JSTL?
> >>
> >> http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/sandbox/jexl/
> >
> > Yes, this is completely different from Jexl. Jexl is not compliant with
> > either the JSTL 1.0 or running JSP 2.0 standard, and we never used it as
> > part of the JSTL RI.
>
> Related question - what can we do to test compliance with the EL of JSTL? I
> am completely uninterested in JSTL compliance, as Jexl isn't related to any
> specific document/markup technology.
>
I would imagine that we'll have a set of unit tests in this repository,
just as we do for the other commons packages. It might be possible to
adopt some sort of "here's a set of expressions and expected values"
things as part of that, which could be used for testing multiple
expression language implementations as part of this.
For formal compliance testing, however, there won't be a TCK for just the
expression language. You'd have to pass the TCK for all of JSTL 1.0 (now)
or JSP 2.0 (later) because the EL is just a feature of those specs.
One way you might still be able to test Jexl directly would be to
implement a wrapper for the EL interpreter APIs in JSP 2.0 (package
javax.servlet.jsp.el), plug it in to a Tomcat 5 container, and run the JSP
2.0 tests against it.
> --
> Geir Magnusson Jr.
Craig
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Re: Proposal: JSP/JSTL expression language
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@adeptra.com>.
On 7/18/02 5:44 PM, "Shawn Bayern" <ba...@essentially.net> wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Jul 2002, bob mcwhirter wrote:
>
>> Is this different from Jexl, which I thought was part of the reference
>> impl of the JSTL?
>>
>> http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/sandbox/jexl/
>
> Yes, this is completely different from Jexl. Jexl is not compliant with
> either the JSTL 1.0 or running JSP 2.0 standard, and we never used it as
> part of the JSTL RI.
Related question - what can we do to test compliance with the EL of JSTL? I
am completely uninterested in JSTL compliance, as Jexl isn't related to any
specific document/markup technology.
--
Geir Magnusson Jr.
Research & Development, Adeptra Inc.
geirm@adeptra.com
+1-203-247-1713
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Re: Proposal: JSP/JSTL expression language
Posted by Shawn Bayern <ba...@essentially.net>.
On Thu, 18 Jul 2002, bob mcwhirter wrote:
> Is this different from Jexl, which I thought was part of the reference
> impl of the JSTL?
>
> http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/sandbox/jexl/
Yes, this is completely different from Jexl. Jexl is not compliant with
either the JSTL 1.0 or running JSP 2.0 standard, and we never used it as
part of the JSTL RI.
Shawn
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Re: Proposal: JSP/JSTL expression language
Posted by "Craig R. McClanahan" <cr...@apache.org>.
On Thu, 18 Jul 2002, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>
> I am all for JSTL becoming a Commons component if Jexl can as well. If JSTL
> rules out other competing implementations, I'm -1.
>
Per the Commons charter, more than one Commons package in the same problem
space is allowed, so I don't see any problem with having both.
> I'll put together a Jexl proposal as well. Jelly is probably going to come
> over the wall sometime as well, so as Jelly requires Jexl, I might as well
> be here and ready :)
>
>
> --
> Geir Magnusson Jr.
> Research & Development, Adeptra Inc.
> geirm@adeptra.com
> +1-203-247-1713
>
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
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>
>
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Re: Proposal: JSP/JSTL expression language
Posted by Dmitri Plotnikov <dp...@yahoo.com>.
Craig,
--- "Craig R. McClanahan" <cr...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>
> On Thu, 25 Jul 2002, Dmitri Plotnikov wrote:
>
> > Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 08:56:16 -0700 (PDT)
> > From: Dmitri Plotnikov <dp...@yahoo.com>
> >
> > --- "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@adeptra.com> wrote:
> > > On 7/20/02 6:11 AM, "Stephen Colebourne"
> > > <sc...@btopenworld.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > I knew I had a sense of deja vu. So the question becomes, can
> the
> > > JSP EL and
> > > > JEXL projects become simply plugins to, or part of the JEX
> project?
> > >
> > > I don't think that's the right way to go - I think that JEX
> should
> > > (if it
> > > wants to) support all of these things. But my feeling is that
> any
> > > kind of
> > > scriptish project should be independent (for purposes of
> > > innovation...)
> > >
> >
> > I agree with Geir that individual languages should not be
> constrained
> > by something like JEX and therefore should not be mere plug-ins.
> > However, it might be a good idea to get them to conform to it.
> >
> > Contributing JEX I was thinking: with all these expression
> languages
> > popping up, each framework that needs one has to either choose a
> > specific language or have a pluggability mechanism. An example of
> the
> > former approach is JSTL, which after several pre-releases allowing
> > multiple languages ended up with just one - EL. An example of the
> > latter approach is Jelly that has a pluggability mechanism similar
> to
> > JEX. To me this clearly calls for a set of common API/SPI.
> >
>
> Having one and only one EL was always the goal for JSTL and JSP --
> the
> reason for the plugability in the early releases was solely to help
> people
> evaluate the alternatives that were being considered.
Sure, I know that, and IMO it is a good thing that they pegged a
specific language (I am not too ecstatic about the language itself
though). This decision will allow them to _compile_ expressions to
Java, which is fantastic.
> > Of course, the "right" way to introduce such APIs would be a JSR
> > similar to JAXP in the XML parser world. But I have no idea how to
> get
> > from here to there.
> >
>
> Even without a JSR to formalize this (you can certainly do that if
> you
> want, by following the procedures on http://jcp.org), you might
> consider
> trying to establish a de facto standard first.
>
> You would need to do something like what commons-logging did --
> define a
> common API, and a factory that followed a JAXP-style discovery
> mechanism,
> and then write some adapters for existing EL interpreters. The
> "discovery" part of this is even easier now, because it's been
> abstracted
> out into the "discovery" package that you can just reuse.
This is a very good description of JEX. This is exactly what it does
and what it is for.
I haven't looked at the "discovery" package yet, but certainly will.
> > One more point. I wanted to make sure it is understood that I don't
> > really see JEX as "my" project and do not want to control its
> destiny.
> > I completely understand how considerations of ownership can stand
> in
> > its way. I cordially invite everybody who has interest in the
> > unification of expression language APIs to join me as a
> co-contributor
> > on the JEX project.
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> > - Dmitri
> >
>
> Craig
>
- Dmitri
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Re: Proposal: JSP/JSTL expression language
Posted by Dmitri Plotnikov <dp...@yahoo.com>.
Craig,
--- "Craig R. McClanahan" <cr...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>
> On Thu, 25 Jul 2002, Dmitri Plotnikov wrote:
>
> > Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 08:56:16 -0700 (PDT)
> > From: Dmitri Plotnikov <dp...@yahoo.com>
> >
> > --- "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@adeptra.com> wrote:
> > > On 7/20/02 6:11 AM, "Stephen Colebourne"
> > > <sc...@btopenworld.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > I knew I had a sense of deja vu. So the question becomes, can
> the
> > > JSP EL and
> > > > JEXL projects become simply plugins to, or part of the JEX
> project?
> > >
> > > I don't think that's the right way to go - I think that JEX
> should
> > > (if it
> > > wants to) support all of these things. But my feeling is that
> any
> > > kind of
> > > scriptish project should be independent (for purposes of
> > > innovation...)
> > >
> >
> > I agree with Geir that individual languages should not be
> constrained
> > by something like JEX and therefore should not be mere plug-ins.
> > However, it might be a good idea to get them to conform to it.
> >
> > Contributing JEX I was thinking: with all these expression
> languages
> > popping up, each framework that needs one has to either choose a
> > specific language or have a pluggability mechanism. An example of
> the
> > former approach is JSTL, which after several pre-releases allowing
> > multiple languages ended up with just one - EL. An example of the
> > latter approach is Jelly that has a pluggability mechanism similar
> to
> > JEX. To me this clearly calls for a set of common API/SPI.
> >
>
> Having one and only one EL was always the goal for JSTL and JSP --
> the
> reason for the plugability in the early releases was solely to help
> people
> evaluate the alternatives that were being considered.
Sure, I know that, and IMO it is a good thing that they pegged a
specific language (I am not too ecstatic about the language itself
though). This decision will allow them to _compile_ expressions to
Java, which is fantastic.
> > Of course, the "right" way to introduce such APIs would be a JSR
> > similar to JAXP in the XML parser world. But I have no idea how to
> get
> > from here to there.
> >
>
> Even without a JSR to formalize this (you can certainly do that if
> you
> want, by following the procedures on http://jcp.org), you might
> consider
> trying to establish a de facto standard first.
>
> You would need to do something like what commons-logging did --
> define a
> common API, and a factory that followed a JAXP-style discovery
> mechanism,
> and then write some adapters for existing EL interpreters. The
> "discovery" part of this is even easier now, because it's been
> abstracted
> out into the "discovery" package that you can just reuse.
This is a very good description of JEX. This is exactly what it does
and what it is for.
I haven't looked at the "discovery" package yet, but certainly will.
> > One more point. I wanted to make sure it is understood that I don't
> > really see JEX as "my" project and do not want to control its
> destiny.
> > I completely understand how considerations of ownership can stand
> in
> > its way. I cordially invite everybody who has interest in the
> > unification of expression language APIs to join me as a
> co-contributor
> > on the JEX project.
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> > - Dmitri
> >
>
> Craig
>
- Dmitri
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Re: Proposal: JSP/JSTL expression language
Posted by "Craig R. McClanahan" <cr...@apache.org>.
On Wed, 7 Aug 2002, Shawn Bayern wrote:
> Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 20:43:04 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Shawn Bayern <ba...@essentially.net>
> Reply-To: Jakarta Commons Developers List <co...@jakarta.apache.org>
> To: Jakarta Commons Developers List <co...@jakarta.apache.org>
> Subject: Re: Proposal: JSP/JSTL expression language
>
> On Wed, 7 Aug 2002, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>
> > > Just wanted to see where we stand on this; I noticed a number of +1 votes
> > > but am not entirely sure of the working conventions adopted by Commons.
> > > Should I begin detaching the EL implementation from the JSTL
> > > implementation at Taglibs and check in the code to the Commons sandbox?
> >
> > As a jakarta committer, you don't need permission to do anything in
> > the sandbox. Have at it!
>
> Well, I wasn't so much asking for permission as for whether it was a good
> idea. Is the sense, so far, that the project is worthwhile as an addition
> to Commons? The consensus isn't clear to me from the earlier discussion.
>
> I can easily copy the code to the Commons sandbox, but it won't be
> canonical there as far as the Standard Taglib is concerned; thus, the
> copies of the code will diverge unless I sync them manually.
>
The idea would be to work in commons-sandbox to gather a couple more
committers, iron out the proposed directions (based on the new spec
requirements), and get to a proposal to make it a commons proper package,
with a 1.0 release as soon as possible. That's the point at which it
would be reasonable to make jakarta-taglibs/standard or jakarta-jasper-2
dependent on it.
I just updated your CVS karma so you can commit to the sandobx.
> Shawn
Craig
>
>
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Re: Proposal: JSP/JSTL expression language
Posted by Shawn Bayern <ba...@essentially.net>.
On Wed, 7 Aug 2002, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> > Just wanted to see where we stand on this; I noticed a number of +1 votes
> > but am not entirely sure of the working conventions adopted by Commons.
> > Should I begin detaching the EL implementation from the JSTL
> > implementation at Taglibs and check in the code to the Commons sandbox?
>
> As a jakarta committer, you don't need permission to do anything in
> the sandbox. Have at it!
Well, I wasn't so much asking for permission as for whether it was a good
idea. Is the sense, so far, that the project is worthwhile as an addition
to Commons? The consensus isn't clear to me from the earlier discussion.
I can easily copy the code to the Commons sandbox, but it won't be
canonical there as far as the Standard Taglib is concerned; thus, the
copies of the code will diverge unless I sync them manually.
Shawn
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Re: Proposal: JSP/JSTL expression language
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@adeptra.com>.
On 8/7/02 5:41 PM, "Shawn Bayern" <ba...@essentially.net> wrote:
> Just wanted to see where we stand on this; I noticed a number of +1 votes
> but am not entirely sure of the working conventions adopted by Commons.
> Should I begin detaching the EL implementation from the JSTL
> implementation at Taglibs and check in the code to the Commons sandbox?
>
As a jakarta committer, you don't need permission to do anything in the
sandbox. Have at it!
> We'd need to be sure that "compliance with the JSTL 1.0 and JSP 2.0
> standards" is a core goal of this implementation -- at least, as invoked
> through some core mode; otherwise, it'll cause problems for Tomcat and the
> Standard Taglib.
I guess that's up to the committers working on it if it comes to commons. :)
--
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geirm@adeptra.com
+1-203-247-1713
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Re: Proposal: JSP/JSTL expression language
Posted by Shawn Bayern <ba...@essentially.net>.
Just wanted to see where we stand on this; I noticed a number of +1 votes
but am not entirely sure of the working conventions adopted by Commons.
Should I begin detaching the EL implementation from the JSTL
implementation at Taglibs and check in the code to the Commons sandbox?
We'd need to be sure that "compliance with the JSTL 1.0 and JSP 2.0
standards" is a core goal of this implementation -- at least, as invoked
through some core mode; otherwise, it'll cause problems for Tomcat and the
Standard Taglib.
Shawn
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Re: Proposal: JSP/JSTL expression language
Posted by co...@covalent.net.
On Thu, 25 Jul 2002, Craig R. McClanahan wrote:
> Having one and only one EL was always the goal for JSTL and JSP -- the
> reason for the plugability in the early releases was solely to help people
> evaluate the alternatives that were being considered.
One EL doesn't mean a single possible implementation - so plugability
is still important.
Regarding the API for plugging different languages or different
implementations of a language - I think BSF is the best
way to go and is a de-facto standard, with adapters for many
languages.
I see absolutely no reason of using JEX over BSF or trying to
set a different standard.
Costin
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Re: Proposal: JSP/JSTL expression language
Posted by "Craig R. McClanahan" <cr...@apache.org>.
On Thu, 25 Jul 2002, Dmitri Plotnikov wrote:
> Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 08:56:16 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Dmitri Plotnikov <dp...@yahoo.com>
> Reply-To: Jakarta Commons Developers List <co...@jakarta.apache.org>,
> dmitri@apache.org
> To: Jakarta Commons Developers List <co...@jakarta.apache.org>
> Subject: Re: Proposal: JSP/JSTL expression language
>
>
> --- "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@adeptra.com> wrote:
> > On 7/20/02 6:11 AM, "Stephen Colebourne"
> > <sc...@btopenworld.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > I knew I had a sense of deja vu. So the question becomes, can the
> > JSP EL and
> > > JEXL projects become simply plugins to, or part of the JEX project?
> >
> > I don't think that's the right way to go - I think that JEX should
> > (if it
> > wants to) support all of these things. But my feeling is that any
> > kind of
> > scriptish project should be independent (for purposes of
> > innovation...)
> >
>
> I agree with Geir that individual languages should not be constrained
> by something like JEX and therefore should not be mere plug-ins.
> However, it might be a good idea to get them to conform to it.
>
> Contributing JEX I was thinking: with all these expression languages
> popping up, each framework that needs one has to either choose a
> specific language or have a pluggability mechanism. An example of the
> former approach is JSTL, which after several pre-releases allowing
> multiple languages ended up with just one - EL. An example of the
> latter approach is Jelly that has a pluggability mechanism similar to
> JEX. To me this clearly calls for a set of common API/SPI.
>
Having one and only one EL was always the goal for JSTL and JSP -- the
reason for the plugability in the early releases was solely to help people
evaluate the alternatives that were being considered.
> Of course, the "right" way to introduce such APIs would be a JSR
> similar to JAXP in the XML parser world. But I have no idea how to get
> from here to there.
>
Even without a JSR to formalize this (you can certainly do that if you
want, by following the procedures on http://jcp.org), you might consider
trying to establish a de facto standard first.
You would need to do something like what commons-logging did -- define a
common API, and a factory that followed a JAXP-style discovery mechanism,
and then write some adapters for existing EL interpreters. The
"discovery" part of this is even easier now, because it's been abstracted
out into the "discovery" package that you can just reuse.
> One more point. I wanted to make sure it is understood that I don't
> really see JEX as "my" project and do not want to control its destiny.
> I completely understand how considerations of ownership can stand in
> its way. I cordially invite everybody who has interest in the
> unification of expression language APIs to join me as a co-contributor
> on the JEX project.
>
> [snip]
>
> - Dmitri
>
Craig
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Re: Proposal: JSP/JSTL expression language
Posted by Dmitri Plotnikov <dp...@yahoo.com>.
Forgot this:
+1 (would even vote +2 if the rules allowed :-)
- Dmitri
--- Dmitri Plotnikov <dp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> --- "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@adeptra.com> wrote:
> > On 7/20/02 6:11 AM, "Stephen Colebourne"
> > <sc...@btopenworld.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > I knew I had a sense of deja vu. So the question becomes, can the
> > JSP EL and
> > > JEXL projects become simply plugins to, or part of the JEX
> project?
> >
> > I don't think that's the right way to go - I think that JEX should
> > (if it
> > wants to) support all of these things. But my feeling is that any
> > kind of
> > scriptish project should be independent (for purposes of
> > innovation...)
> >
>
> I agree with Geir that individual languages should not be constrained
> by something like JEX and therefore should not be mere plug-ins.
> However, it might be a good idea to get them to conform to it.
>
> Contributing JEX I was thinking: with all these expression languages
> popping up, each framework that needs one has to either choose a
> specific language or have a pluggability mechanism. An example of
> the
> former approach is JSTL, which after several pre-releases allowing
> multiple languages ended up with just one - EL. An example of the
> latter approach is Jelly that has a pluggability mechanism similar to
> JEX. To me this clearly calls for a set of common API/SPI.
>
> Of course, the "right" way to introduce such APIs would be a JSR
> similar to JAXP in the XML parser world. But I have no idea how to
> get
> from here to there.
>
> One more point. I wanted to make sure it is understood that I don't
> really see JEX as "my" project and do not want to control its
> destiny.
> I completely understand how considerations of ownership can stand in
> its way. I cordially invite everybody who has interest in the
> unification of expression language APIs to join me as a
> co-contributor
> on the JEX project.
>
> [snip]
>
> - Dmitri
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
> http://health.yahoo.com
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Re: Proposal: JSP/JSTL expression language
Posted by Dmitri Plotnikov <dp...@yahoo.com>.
--- "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@adeptra.com> wrote:
> On 7/20/02 6:11 AM, "Stephen Colebourne"
> <sc...@btopenworld.com>
> wrote:
>
> > I knew I had a sense of deja vu. So the question becomes, can the
> JSP EL and
> > JEXL projects become simply plugins to, or part of the JEX project?
>
> I don't think that's the right way to go - I think that JEX should
> (if it
> wants to) support all of these things. But my feeling is that any
> kind of
> scriptish project should be independent (for purposes of
> innovation...)
>
I agree with Geir that individual languages should not be constrained
by something like JEX and therefore should not be mere plug-ins.
However, it might be a good idea to get them to conform to it.
Contributing JEX I was thinking: with all these expression languages
popping up, each framework that needs one has to either choose a
specific language or have a pluggability mechanism. An example of the
former approach is JSTL, which after several pre-releases allowing
multiple languages ended up with just one - EL. An example of the
latter approach is Jelly that has a pluggability mechanism similar to
JEX. To me this clearly calls for a set of common API/SPI.
Of course, the "right" way to introduce such APIs would be a JSR
similar to JAXP in the XML parser world. But I have no idea how to get
from here to there.
One more point. I wanted to make sure it is understood that I don't
really see JEX as "my" project and do not want to control its destiny.
I completely understand how considerations of ownership can stand in
its way. I cordially invite everybody who has interest in the
unification of expression language APIs to join me as a co-contributor
on the JEX project.
[snip]
- Dmitri
__________________________________________________
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Re: Proposal: JSP/JSTL expression language
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@adeptra.com>.
On 7/20/02 6:11 AM, "Stephen Colebourne" <sc...@btopenworld.com>
wrote:
> I knew I had a sense of deja vu. So the question becomes, can the JSP EL and
> JEXL projects become simply plugins to, or part of the JEX project?
I don't think that's the right way to go - I think that JEX should (if it
wants to) support all of these things. But my feeling is that any kind of
scriptish project should be independent (for purposes of innovation...)
>
> Stephen
>
>> 100% agree with you. There are a lot of "good" scripts, languages and
> QL's,
>> it is not a problem to invent a new one, but it is better to allows users
> to
>> write or
>> use some "the best" language.
>>
>> We can import code to sandbox without vote, but it is my
>> -0 for a new "el for JSP" in commons, I don't think it is something common
>> for Jakarta
>> projects and it is possible to find a better place for "el".
>>
>>
>> BTW:
>> commons-sandbox/jex is an interface for plugged in syntaxes for
> evaluation.
>>
>>> +1 on joining commons, but...
>>>
>>> My query is over how general the interface could be. I haven't looked at
>> it
>>> in much detail, but it seems like there are multiple possible 'element
>>> language' syntaxes - JSP and JEXL are only two. What about xpath for
>>> example? Is the plan to create an interface that allows users to write
>> their
>>> own plugged in syntaxes? If so, maybe 'path' is a more general name than
>>> 'el'.
>>>
>>> eg.
>>> Path.evaluate("fred.bob.vera", Path.JEXL);
>>> Path.evaluate("fred/bob/vera[0]", Path.XPATH);
>>>
>>> Stephen
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: <co...@covalent.net>
>>> To: "Jakarta Commons Developers List" <co...@jakarta.apache.org>
>>> Sent: Friday, July 19, 2002 9:57 PM
>>> Subject: Re: Proposal: JSP/JSTL expression language
>>>
>>>
>>>> +1 on both JSP/JSTL EL and JEXL - as part of commons.
>>>>
>>>> I also like to be sure that:
>>>>
>>>> 1) jasper will allow customization on what EL impl it uses.
>>>> 2) the EL implementations can be used easily in other projects.
>>>>
>>>> Costin
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, 18 Jul 2002, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 7/18/02 5:29 PM, "bob mcwhirter" <bo...@werken.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi there. I'm the reference-implementation lead for the JSP
>> Standard
>>> Tag
>>>>>>> Library (JSTL), which includes an expression language ("EL") that
>>> will
>>>>>>> become the basis of JSP 2.0's expression language. Because of
> the
>>> number
>>>>>>> of different projects that need the EL, many of us thought it
> wise
>> to
>>>>>>> propose that Jakarta Commons host the implementation. This will
>> also
>>>>>>> allow the addition of nonstandard features that some people
> desire,
>>> so
>>>>>>> long as the code base has a mode of operation whereby the JSTL
> 1.0
>>> and JSP
>>>>>>> 2.0 standards (separately) obtain.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is this different from Jexl, which I thought was part of the
>> reference
>>>>>> impl of the JSTL?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/sandbox/jexl/
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Jexl is *not* in any way part of the RI.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jexl strives to be compliant with the RI, but also extends it in
> what
>>> some
>>>>> consider useful ways, such as access to arbitrary methods of objects
>> in
>>> the
>>>>> context.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am all for JSTL becoming a Commons component if Jexl can as well.
>> If
>>> JSTL
>>>>> rules out other competing implementations, I'm -1.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'll put together a Jexl proposal as well. Jelly is probably going
> to
>>> come
>>>>> over the wall sometime as well, so as Jelly requires Jexl, I might
> as
>>> well
>>>>> be here and ready :)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
>>> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>>>> For additional commands, e-mail:
>>> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
>> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
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>> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>>>
>>
>>
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> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>>
>
>
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Research & Development, Adeptra Inc.
geirm@adeptra.com
+1-203-247-1713
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Re: Proposal: JSP/JSTL expression language
Posted by Stephen Colebourne <sc...@btopenworld.com>.
I knew I had a sense of deja vu. So the question becomes, can the JSP EL and
JEXL projects become simply plugins to, or part of the JEX project?
Stephen
> 100% agree with you. There are a lot of "good" scripts, languages and
QL's,
> it is not a problem to invent a new one, but it is better to allows users
to
> write or
> use some "the best" language.
>
> We can import code to sandbox without vote, but it is my
> -0 for a new "el for JSP" in commons, I don't think it is something common
> for Jakarta
> projects and it is possible to find a better place for "el".
>
>
> BTW:
> commons-sandbox/jex is an interface for plugged in syntaxes for
evaluation.
>
> > +1 on joining commons, but...
> >
> > My query is over how general the interface could be. I haven't looked at
> it
> > in much detail, but it seems like there are multiple possible 'element
> > language' syntaxes - JSP and JEXL are only two. What about xpath for
> > example? Is the plan to create an interface that allows users to write
> their
> > own plugged in syntaxes? If so, maybe 'path' is a more general name than
> > 'el'.
> >
> > eg.
> > Path.evaluate("fred.bob.vera", Path.JEXL);
> > Path.evaluate("fred/bob/vera[0]", Path.XPATH);
> >
> > Stephen
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <co...@covalent.net>
> > To: "Jakarta Commons Developers List" <co...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > Sent: Friday, July 19, 2002 9:57 PM
> > Subject: Re: Proposal: JSP/JSTL expression language
> >
> >
> > > +1 on both JSP/JSTL EL and JEXL - as part of commons.
> > >
> > > I also like to be sure that:
> > >
> > > 1) jasper will allow customization on what EL impl it uses.
> > > 2) the EL implementations can be used easily in other projects.
> > >
> > > Costin
> > >
> > > On Thu, 18 Jul 2002, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> > >
> > > > On 7/18/02 5:29 PM, "bob mcwhirter" <bo...@werken.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >> Hi there. I'm the reference-implementation lead for the JSP
> Standard
> > Tag
> > > > >> Library (JSTL), which includes an expression language ("EL") that
> > will
> > > > >> become the basis of JSP 2.0's expression language. Because of
the
> > number
> > > > >> of different projects that need the EL, many of us thought it
wise
> to
> > > > >> propose that Jakarta Commons host the implementation. This will
> also
> > > > >> allow the addition of nonstandard features that some people
desire,
> > so
> > > > >> long as the code base has a mode of operation whereby the JSTL
1.0
> > and JSP
> > > > >> 2.0 standards (separately) obtain.
> > > > >
> > > > > Is this different from Jexl, which I thought was part of the
> reference
> > > > > impl of the JSTL?
> > > > >
> > > > > http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/sandbox/jexl/
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Jexl is *not* in any way part of the RI.
> > > >
> > > > Jexl strives to be compliant with the RI, but also extends it in
what
> > some
> > > > consider useful ways, such as access to arbitrary methods of objects
> in
> > the
> > > > context.
> > > >
> > > > I am all for JSTL becoming a Commons component if Jexl can as well.
> If
> > JSTL
> > > > rules out other competing implementations, I'm -1.
> > > >
> > > > I'll put together a Jexl proposal as well. Jelly is probably going
to
> > come
> > > > over the wall sometime as well, so as Jelly requires Jexl, I might
as
> > well
> > > > be here and ready :)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > For additional commands, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> >
>
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Re: Proposal: JSP/JSTL expression language
Posted by co...@covalent.net.
On Sat, 20 Jul 2002, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> > If you can suggest a better place, I'd be eager to hear it. I'm proposing
> > it to Commons primarily at the suggestion of Craig and others, and it does
> > make sense to me: it will be used at least by Jakarta Tomcat and Jakarta
> > Taglibs. We could continue to host it in Taglibs without too much
> > trouble, but it seems more logical to locate a reusable component like
> > this in Commons. Is my understanding of Commons incorrect?
>
> As the author of a 'competitive' package, jexl, that will feel some sort of
> competitive pressure (meaning if anyone has anything to lose with it coming
> to commons, I do...) I fully support it coming to commons. If people wish
> to be able to have a component that needs JSTL EL support, then a commons
> component is the right idea.
Big +1 and many thanks for this attitude. I wish we would see that more
often and with more people.
BTW, I'm trying to get some 'dynamic properties' support for ant, and
both should work with that ( my target was jxpath, but any 'EL' could be
used in ant's ${} ).
> That said, I do believe that you should reconsider 'el' as the package
> name...
+1 here too.
Costin
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Re: Proposal: JSP/JSTL expression language
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@adeptra.com>.
On 7/20/02 2:52 PM, "Shawn Bayern" <ba...@essentially.net> wrote:
> On Sat, 20 Jul 2002, Juozas Baliuka wrote:
>
>> We can import code to sandbox without vote, but it is my -0 for a new
>> "el for JSP" in commons, I don't think it is something common for
>> Jakarta projects and it is possible to find a better place for "el".
>
> If you can suggest a better place, I'd be eager to hear it. I'm proposing
> it to Commons primarily at the suggestion of Craig and others, and it does
> make sense to me: it will be used at least by Jakarta Tomcat and Jakarta
> Taglibs. We could continue to host it in Taglibs without too much
> trouble, but it seems more logical to locate a reusable component like
> this in Commons. Is my understanding of Commons incorrect?
As the author of a 'competitive' package, jexl, that will feel some sort of
competitive pressure (meaning if anyone has anything to lose with it coming
to commons, I do...) I fully support it coming to commons. If people wish
to be able to have a component that needs JSTL EL support, then a commons
component is the right idea.
That said, I do believe that you should reconsider 'el' as the package
name...
:)
>
> To put it another way, what reason is there for it not to belong here?
>
> Shawn
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>
--
Geir Magnusson Jr.
Research & Development, Adeptra Inc.
geirm@adeptra.com
+1-203-247-1713
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Re: Proposal: JSP/JSTL expression language
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@adeptra.com>.
On 7/20/02 3:52 PM, "Juozas Baliuka" <ba...@centras.lt> wrote:
>
> No problems to have this in commons, if people think it is good place for
> "el",
> And I believe "el" will not be for JSP trags only.
And if they do a pluggable interface, it will be nice to see Jexl used in
JSP tags
:b
>
>
>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, 20 Jul 2002, Shawn Bayern wrote:
>>
>>> Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 14:52:27 -0400 (EDT)
>>> From: Shawn Bayern <ba...@essentially.net>
>>> Reply-To: Jakarta Commons Developers List
> <co...@jakarta.apache.org>
>>> To: Jakarta Commons Developers List <co...@jakarta.apache.org>
>>> Subject: Re: Proposal: JSP/JSTL expression language
>>>
>>> On Sat, 20 Jul 2002, Juozas Baliuka wrote:
>>>
>>>> We can import code to sandbox without vote, but it is my -0 for a new
>>>> "el for JSP" in commons, I don't think it is something common for
>>>> Jakarta projects and it is possible to find a better place for "el".
>>>
>>> If you can suggest a better place, I'd be eager to hear it. I'm
> proposing
>>> it to Commons primarily at the suggestion of Craig and others, and it
> does
>>> make sense to me: it will be used at least by Jakarta Tomcat and
> Jakarta
>>> Taglibs. We could continue to host it in Taglibs without too much
>>> trouble, but it seems more logical to locate a reusable component like
>>> this in Commons. Is my understanding of Commons incorrect?
>>>
>>> To put it another way, what reason is there for it not to belong here?
>>>
>>
>> In fact, at least two Jakarta projects (the "standard" tag library in
>> Jakarta Taglibs and the JSP 2.0 code in Tomcat 5) are already in need of
>> this code being in a common place. Once it's available, I plan to
>> integrate support for this into existing Struts tags, so that makes three
>> -- plus the opportunity for any other Jakarta or non-Jakarta project that
>> wants it.
>>
>> Sounds like the definition of a "common" project to me :-).
>>
>>> Shawn
>>
>> Craig
>>
>>
>> --
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>> For additional commands, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>>
>
>
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Re: Proposal: JSP/JSTL expression language
Posted by Juozas Baliuka <ba...@centras.lt>.
No problems to have this in commons, if people think it is good place for
"el",
And I believe "el" will not be for JSP trags only.
>
>
> On Sat, 20 Jul 2002, Shawn Bayern wrote:
>
> > Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 14:52:27 -0400 (EDT)
> > From: Shawn Bayern <ba...@essentially.net>
> > Reply-To: Jakarta Commons Developers List
<co...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > To: Jakarta Commons Developers List <co...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > Subject: Re: Proposal: JSP/JSTL expression language
> >
> > On Sat, 20 Jul 2002, Juozas Baliuka wrote:
> >
> > > We can import code to sandbox without vote, but it is my -0 for a new
> > > "el for JSP" in commons, I don't think it is something common for
> > > Jakarta projects and it is possible to find a better place for "el".
> >
> > If you can suggest a better place, I'd be eager to hear it. I'm
proposing
> > it to Commons primarily at the suggestion of Craig and others, and it
does
> > make sense to me: it will be used at least by Jakarta Tomcat and
Jakarta
> > Taglibs. We could continue to host it in Taglibs without too much
> > trouble, but it seems more logical to locate a reusable component like
> > this in Commons. Is my understanding of Commons incorrect?
> >
> > To put it another way, what reason is there for it not to belong here?
> >
>
> In fact, at least two Jakarta projects (the "standard" tag library in
> Jakarta Taglibs and the JSP 2.0 code in Tomcat 5) are already in need of
> this code being in a common place. Once it's available, I plan to
> integrate support for this into existing Struts tags, so that makes three
> -- plus the opportunity for any other Jakarta or non-Jakarta project that
> wants it.
>
> Sounds like the definition of a "common" project to me :-).
>
> > Shawn
>
> Craig
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
<ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail:
<ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>
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Re: Proposal: JSP/JSTL expression language
Posted by "Craig R. McClanahan" <cr...@apache.org>.
On Sat, 20 Jul 2002, Shawn Bayern wrote:
> Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 14:52:27 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Shawn Bayern <ba...@essentially.net>
> Reply-To: Jakarta Commons Developers List <co...@jakarta.apache.org>
> To: Jakarta Commons Developers List <co...@jakarta.apache.org>
> Subject: Re: Proposal: JSP/JSTL expression language
>
> On Sat, 20 Jul 2002, Juozas Baliuka wrote:
>
> > We can import code to sandbox without vote, but it is my -0 for a new
> > "el for JSP" in commons, I don't think it is something common for
> > Jakarta projects and it is possible to find a better place for "el".
>
> If you can suggest a better place, I'd be eager to hear it. I'm proposing
> it to Commons primarily at the suggestion of Craig and others, and it does
> make sense to me: it will be used at least by Jakarta Tomcat and Jakarta
> Taglibs. We could continue to host it in Taglibs without too much
> trouble, but it seems more logical to locate a reusable component like
> this in Commons. Is my understanding of Commons incorrect?
>
> To put it another way, what reason is there for it not to belong here?
>
In fact, at least two Jakarta projects (the "standard" tag library in
Jakarta Taglibs and the JSP 2.0 code in Tomcat 5) are already in need of
this code being in a common place. Once it's available, I plan to
integrate support for this into existing Struts tags, so that makes three
-- plus the opportunity for any other Jakarta or non-Jakarta project that
wants it.
Sounds like the definition of a "common" project to me :-).
> Shawn
Craig
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Re: Proposal: JSP/JSTL expression language
Posted by Shawn Bayern <ba...@essentially.net>.
On Sat, 20 Jul 2002, Juozas Baliuka wrote:
> We can import code to sandbox without vote, but it is my -0 for a new
> "el for JSP" in commons, I don't think it is something common for
> Jakarta projects and it is possible to find a better place for "el".
If you can suggest a better place, I'd be eager to hear it. I'm proposing
it to Commons primarily at the suggestion of Craig and others, and it does
make sense to me: it will be used at least by Jakarta Tomcat and Jakarta
Taglibs. We could continue to host it in Taglibs without too much
trouble, but it seems more logical to locate a reusable component like
this in Commons. Is my understanding of Commons incorrect?
To put it another way, what reason is there for it not to belong here?
Shawn
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Re: Proposal: JSP/JSTL expression language
Posted by Juozas Baliuka <ba...@centras.lt>.
100% agree with you. There are a lot of "good" scripts, languages and QL's,
it is not a problem to invent a new one, but it is better to allows users to
write or
use some "the best" language.
We can import code to sandbox without vote, but it is my
-0 for a new "el for JSP" in commons, I don't think it is something common
for Jakarta
projects and it is possible to find a better place for "el".
BTW:
commons-sandbox/jex is an interface for plugged in syntaxes for evaluation.
> +1 on joining commons, but...
>
> My query is over how general the interface could be. I haven't looked at
it
> in much detail, but it seems like there are multiple possible 'element
> language' syntaxes - JSP and JEXL are only two. What about xpath for
> example? Is the plan to create an interface that allows users to write
their
> own plugged in syntaxes? If so, maybe 'path' is a more general name than
> 'el'.
>
> eg.
> Path.evaluate("fred.bob.vera", Path.JEXL);
> Path.evaluate("fred/bob/vera[0]", Path.XPATH);
>
> Stephen
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <co...@covalent.net>
> To: "Jakarta Commons Developers List" <co...@jakarta.apache.org>
> Sent: Friday, July 19, 2002 9:57 PM
> Subject: Re: Proposal: JSP/JSTL expression language
>
>
> > +1 on both JSP/JSTL EL and JEXL - as part of commons.
> >
> > I also like to be sure that:
> >
> > 1) jasper will allow customization on what EL impl it uses.
> > 2) the EL implementations can be used easily in other projects.
> >
> > Costin
> >
> > On Thu, 18 Jul 2002, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> >
> > > On 7/18/02 5:29 PM, "bob mcwhirter" <bo...@werken.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > >> Hi there. I'm the reference-implementation lead for the JSP
Standard
> Tag
> > > >> Library (JSTL), which includes an expression language ("EL") that
> will
> > > >> become the basis of JSP 2.0's expression language. Because of the
> number
> > > >> of different projects that need the EL, many of us thought it wise
to
> > > >> propose that Jakarta Commons host the implementation. This will
also
> > > >> allow the addition of nonstandard features that some people desire,
> so
> > > >> long as the code base has a mode of operation whereby the JSTL 1.0
> and JSP
> > > >> 2.0 standards (separately) obtain.
> > > >
> > > > Is this different from Jexl, which I thought was part of the
reference
> > > > impl of the JSTL?
> > > >
> > > > http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/sandbox/jexl/
> > > >
> > >
> > > Jexl is *not* in any way part of the RI.
> > >
> > > Jexl strives to be compliant with the RI, but also extends it in what
> some
> > > consider useful ways, such as access to arbitrary methods of objects
in
> the
> > > context.
> > >
> > > I am all for JSTL becoming a Commons component if Jexl can as well.
If
> JSTL
> > > rules out other competing implementations, I'm -1.
> > >
> > > I'll put together a Jexl proposal as well. Jelly is probably going to
> come
> > > over the wall sometime as well, so as Jelly requires Jexl, I might as
> well
> > > be here and ready :)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > For additional commands, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> >
>
>
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Re: Proposal: JSP/JSTL expression language
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@adeptra.com>.
On 7/20/02 4:52 AM, "Stephen Colebourne" <sc...@btopenworld.com>
wrote:
> +1 on joining commons, but...
>
> My query is over how general the interface could be. I haven't looked at it
> in much detail, but it seems like there are multiple possible 'element
> language' syntaxes - JSP and JEXL are only two. What about xpath for
> example? Is the plan to create an interface that allows users to write their
> own plugged in syntaxes? If so, maybe 'path' is a more general name than
> 'el'.
>
> eg.
> Path.evaluate("fred.bob.vera", Path.JEXL);
> Path.evaluate("fred/bob/vera[0]", Path.XPATH);
That would be cool, but I would imagine independent of the impls of Jexl,
xpath, JSTL EL, Foobar...
--
Geir Magnusson Jr.
Research & Development, Adeptra Inc.
geirm@adeptra.com
+1-203-247-1713
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Re: Proposal: JSP/JSTL expression language
Posted by Stephen Colebourne <sc...@btopenworld.com>.
+1 on joining commons, but...
My query is over how general the interface could be. I haven't looked at it
in much detail, but it seems like there are multiple possible 'element
language' syntaxes - JSP and JEXL are only two. What about xpath for
example? Is the plan to create an interface that allows users to write their
own plugged in syntaxes? If so, maybe 'path' is a more general name than
'el'.
eg.
Path.evaluate("fred.bob.vera", Path.JEXL);
Path.evaluate("fred/bob/vera[0]", Path.XPATH);
Stephen
----- Original Message -----
From: <co...@covalent.net>
To: "Jakarta Commons Developers List" <co...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Friday, July 19, 2002 9:57 PM
Subject: Re: Proposal: JSP/JSTL expression language
> +1 on both JSP/JSTL EL and JEXL - as part of commons.
>
> I also like to be sure that:
>
> 1) jasper will allow customization on what EL impl it uses.
> 2) the EL implementations can be used easily in other projects.
>
> Costin
>
> On Thu, 18 Jul 2002, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>
> > On 7/18/02 5:29 PM, "bob mcwhirter" <bo...@werken.com> wrote:
> >
> > >> Hi there. I'm the reference-implementation lead for the JSP Standard
Tag
> > >> Library (JSTL), which includes an expression language ("EL") that
will
> > >> become the basis of JSP 2.0's expression language. Because of the
number
> > >> of different projects that need the EL, many of us thought it wise to
> > >> propose that Jakarta Commons host the implementation. This will also
> > >> allow the addition of nonstandard features that some people desire,
so
> > >> long as the code base has a mode of operation whereby the JSTL 1.0
and JSP
> > >> 2.0 standards (separately) obtain.
> > >
> > > Is this different from Jexl, which I thought was part of the reference
> > > impl of the JSTL?
> > >
> > > http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/sandbox/jexl/
> > >
> >
> > Jexl is *not* in any way part of the RI.
> >
> > Jexl strives to be compliant with the RI, but also extends it in what
some
> > consider useful ways, such as access to arbitrary methods of objects in
the
> > context.
> >
> > I am all for JSTL becoming a Commons component if Jexl can as well. If
JSTL
> > rules out other competing implementations, I'm -1.
> >
> > I'll put together a Jexl proposal as well. Jelly is probably going to
come
> > over the wall sometime as well, so as Jelly requires Jexl, I might as
well
> > be here and ready :)
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
<ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail:
<ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
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Re: Proposal: JSP/JSTL expression language
Posted by co...@covalent.net.
+1 on both JSP/JSTL EL and JEXL - as part of commons.
I also like to be sure that:
1) jasper will allow customization on what EL impl it uses.
2) the EL implementations can be used easily in other projects.
Costin
On Thu, 18 Jul 2002, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> On 7/18/02 5:29 PM, "bob mcwhirter" <bo...@werken.com> wrote:
>
> >> Hi there. I'm the reference-implementation lead for the JSP Standard Tag
> >> Library (JSTL), which includes an expression language ("EL") that will
> >> become the basis of JSP 2.0's expression language. Because of the number
> >> of different projects that need the EL, many of us thought it wise to
> >> propose that Jakarta Commons host the implementation. This will also
> >> allow the addition of nonstandard features that some people desire, so
> >> long as the code base has a mode of operation whereby the JSTL 1.0 and JSP
> >> 2.0 standards (separately) obtain.
> >
> > Is this different from Jexl, which I thought was part of the reference
> > impl of the JSTL?
> >
> > http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/sandbox/jexl/
> >
>
> Jexl is *not* in any way part of the RI.
>
> Jexl strives to be compliant with the RI, but also extends it in what some
> consider useful ways, such as access to arbitrary methods of objects in the
> context.
>
> I am all for JSTL becoming a Commons component if Jexl can as well. If JSTL
> rules out other competing implementations, I'm -1.
>
> I'll put together a Jexl proposal as well. Jelly is probably going to come
> over the wall sometime as well, so as Jelly requires Jexl, I might as well
> be here and ready :)
>
>
>
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Re: Proposal: JSP/JSTL expression language
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@adeptra.com>.
On 7/18/02 5:29 PM, "bob mcwhirter" <bo...@werken.com> wrote:
>> Hi there. I'm the reference-implementation lead for the JSP Standard Tag
>> Library (JSTL), which includes an expression language ("EL") that will
>> become the basis of JSP 2.0's expression language. Because of the number
>> of different projects that need the EL, many of us thought it wise to
>> propose that Jakarta Commons host the implementation. This will also
>> allow the addition of nonstandard features that some people desire, so
>> long as the code base has a mode of operation whereby the JSTL 1.0 and JSP
>> 2.0 standards (separately) obtain.
>
> Is this different from Jexl, which I thought was part of the reference
> impl of the JSTL?
>
> http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/sandbox/jexl/
>
Jexl is *not* in any way part of the RI.
Jexl strives to be compliant with the RI, but also extends it in what some
consider useful ways, such as access to arbitrary methods of objects in the
context.
I am all for JSTL becoming a Commons component if Jexl can as well. If JSTL
rules out other competing implementations, I'm -1.
I'll put together a Jexl proposal as well. Jelly is probably going to come
over the wall sometime as well, so as Jelly requires Jexl, I might as well
be here and ready :)
--
Geir Magnusson Jr.
Research & Development, Adeptra Inc.
geirm@adeptra.com
+1-203-247-1713
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Re: Proposal: JSP/JSTL expression language
Posted by bob mcwhirter <bo...@werken.com>.
> Hi there. I'm the reference-implementation lead for the JSP Standard Tag
> Library (JSTL), which includes an expression language ("EL") that will
> become the basis of JSP 2.0's expression language. Because of the number
> of different projects that need the EL, many of us thought it wise to
> propose that Jakarta Commons host the implementation. This will also
> allow the addition of nonstandard features that some people desire, so
> long as the code base has a mode of operation whereby the JSTL 1.0 and JSP
> 2.0 standards (separately) obtain.
Is this different from Jexl, which I thought was part of the reference
impl of the JSTL?
http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/sandbox/jexl/
-bob
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Re: Proposal: JSP/JSTL expression language
Posted by "Craig R. McClanahan" <cr...@apache.org>.
+1
Craig
On Thu, 18 Jul 2002, Shawn Bayern wrote:
> Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 17:16:36 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Shawn Bayern <ba...@essentially.net>
> Reply-To: Jakarta Commons Developers List <co...@jakarta.apache.org>
> To: commons-dev@jakarta.apache.org
> Subject: Proposal: JSP/JSTL expression language
>
> Commons developers,
>
> Hi there. I'm the reference-implementation lead for the JSP Standard Tag
> Library (JSTL), which includes an expression language ("EL") that will
> become the basis of JSP 2.0's expression language. Because of the number
> of different projects that need the EL, many of us thought it wise to
> propose that Jakarta Commons host the implementation. This will also
> allow the addition of nonstandard features that some people desire, so
> long as the code base has a mode of operation whereby the JSTL 1.0 and JSP
> 2.0 standards (separately) obtain.
>
> I've written a brief proposal and posted it here:
>
> http://www.apache.org/~shawn/el-proposal.html
>
> Please let me know if you have any questions or need more information. I
> have several specific mechanisms in mind concerning how to accommodate
> multiple standards and products with the same code base; I can describe
> them in more detail if anyone's interested.
>
> Thanks,
>
> --
> Shawn Bayern
> "JSTL in Action" http://www.jstlbook.com
>
>
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