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Posted to dev@subversion.apache.org by Geoff Beaumont <ge...@stormhammer.com> on 2003/07/03 23:16:52 UTC
Files not downloaded on checkout
I've had a look at the issue log and couldn't see anything about this; I have
a subversion repository, accessed using Apache/WebDAV. The server is
Subversion 0.17.1 on SuSE Linux. I have no problems using the repository from
SuSE/0.17.1 client, but another user of the repository has Subversion 0.24.2
on Mac OS X - when he checks out from the repository the directory structure
is created in his working copy but no files are downloaded.
Could the version difference have anything to do with this? Is there anything
else we should look at?
--
Geoff Beaumont
geoffbeaumont@stormhammer.com
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Re: Files not downloaded on checkout
Posted by Garrett Rooney <ro...@electricjellyfish.net>.
Geoff Beaumont wrote:
> Are there any issues with older clients accessing more recent servers
> (within reason - I appreciate Subversion's still officially alpha)?
Yes, they may not work if they're more than 1 version appart. Many
bugfixes require backwards incompatable changes to the protocol. We
leave compatability code in there for one revision cycle, so people have
time to upgrade, then we remove it. After 1.0, we will have more strict
rules about that sort of thing, but for now it's 1 major revision worth
of compatability is all that is certain to work.
-garrett
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Re: Files not downloaded on checkout
Posted by Thom May <th...@planetarytramp.net>.
* Colin Watson (cjwatson@flatline.org.uk) wrote :
>
> At the moment Debian is shipping subversion only in unstable to avoid
> exactly this problem (http://bugs.debian.org/193062). I think this is
> the right approach for distributions that have some kind of analogue to
> unstable, although I'm not sure if SuSE and Red Hat are among these.
>
Red Hat has Fedora, at least. Don't know about SuSE.
-Thom
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Re: Files not downloaded on checkout
Posted by Colin Watson <cj...@flatline.org.uk>.
On Fri, Jul 04, 2003 at 08:30:23AM -0500, Ben Collins-Sussman wrote:
> Geoff Beaumont <ge...@stormhammer.com> writes:
> > Hmm, ideally I don't want to upgrade the server as it's exposed to the
> > Internet. At the moment it uses standard SuSE 8.2 packages and if SuSE
> > release security patches they'll be applied automatically. I don't want
> > to have to track any software on this machine manually, particularly as
> > I can't guarantee being able to do so quickly if a security hole is
> > discovered.
>
> Then you shouldn't be using unreleased, alpha software. :-)
>
> Seriously... I'm thrilled that popular distributions (like SuSE or
> Redhat9) are distributing subversion, it's great marketing. But the
> problem is that people then consider some 3 or 6-month old version of
> svn to be a "standard OS package" or something "managed" by the OS.
At the moment Debian is shipping subversion only in unstable to avoid
exactly this problem (http://bugs.debian.org/193062). I think this is
the right approach for distributions that have some kind of analogue to
unstable, although I'm not sure if SuSE and Red Hat are among these.
--
Colin Watson [cjwatson@flatline.org.uk]
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Re: Files not downloaded on checkout
Posted by Geoff Beaumont <ge...@stormhammer.com>.
Geoff Beaumont wrote:
> Ben Collins-Sussman wrote:
>> Geoff Beaumont <ge...@stormhammer.com> writes:
>>> True, if I do have problems I won't be able to get support, but in that
>>> case I can upgrade to the latest version and if that doesn't cure it
>>> then post to the list (yes, I'm aware I didn't do that this time... ;c)
>>
>> Sounds good!
>
> If I'm back next week you have my full permission to be smug...
Okay, you win. Couldn't get 0.17/0.18 to compile on the Mac, so we've
had to update everything.
I'm off to sulk petulantly ;c)
--
Geoff Beaumont
geoffbeaumont@stormhammer.com
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Re: Files not downloaded on checkout
Posted by Geoff Beaumont <ge...@stormhammer.com>.
Ben Collins-Sussman wrote:
> Geoff Beaumont <ge...@stormhammer.com> writes:
>>All understood, but as long as 0.17.1 does everything I need to do
>>without errors, where's the advantage in constantly upgrading?
>
> I guess I don't believe you when you say it works for you "without
> errors". :-) Go look at the number of bugs that have been fixed in
> the last 8 releases: {0.18, 0.19, 0.20, 0.21, 0.22, 0.23, 0.24, 0.25}.
> You're sure none of these things are ever gonna bother you? :-)
No, I'm not. ;c)
>>True, if I do have problems I won't be able to get support, but in that
>>case I can upgrade to the latest version and if that doesn't cure it
>>then post to the list (yes, I'm aware I didn't do that this time... ;c)
>
> Sounds good!
If I'm back next week you have my full permission to be smug...
--
Geoff Beaumont
geoffbeaumont@stormhammer.com
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Re: Files not downloaded on checkout
Posted by Ben Collins-Sussman <su...@collab.net>.
Geoff Beaumont <ge...@stormhammer.com> writes:
> All understood, but as long as 0.17.1 does everything I need to do
> without errors, where's the advantage in constantly upgrading?
I guess I don't believe you when you say it works for you "without
errors". :-) Go look at the number of bugs that have been fixed in
the last 8 releases: {0.18, 0.19, 0.20, 0.21, 0.22, 0.23, 0.24, 0.25}.
You're sure none of these things are ever gonna bother you? :-)
> True, if I do have problems I won't be able to get support, but in that
> case I can upgrade to the latest version and if that doesn't cure it
> then post to the list (yes, I'm aware I didn't do that this time... ;c)
Sounds good!
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Re: Files not downloaded on checkout
Posted by Geoff Beaumont <ge...@stormhammer.com>.
All understood, but as long as 0.17.1 does everything I need to do
without errors, where's the advantage in constantly upgrading?
There's the advantage that I'd be helping test Subversion, but implicit
in that is the risk of introducing new bugs with each upgrade (as
opposed to running a version which has known bugs, but ones that aren't
affecting me).
In addition to that there's the work involved in tracking Subversion and
upgrading each time there's a new release - not huge, I know, but time
is something I don't have a lot of.
True, if I do have problems I won't be able to get support, but in that
case I can upgrade to the latest version and if that doesn't cure it
then post to the list (yes, I'm aware I didn't do that this time... ;c)
--
Geoff Beaumont
geoffbeaumont@stormhammer.com
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Re: Files not downloaded on checkout
Posted by Ben Collins-Sussman <su...@collab.net>.
Geoff Beaumont <ge...@stormhammer.com> writes:
> I take your point, though I'd have thought that if you depend_ on
> Subversion, the last_ thing you'd want to be doing is upgrading it
> every month...
No, you've got it backwards. :-)
If you were depending on subversion 1.0 for really critical stuff,
then yes, your attitude would be exactly correct: the only time to
upgrade is for significant security bugfix. This is a standard,
conservative atttiude: in general, upgrading is more risky than
beneficial.
But there is no svn 1.0 yet; subversion is alpha software. Our
monthly releases aren't "trivial". Major things change -- huge bugs
are removed, new subcommands added, APIs shift, network protocols
change. If subversion release N < M < 1.0, then I can *guarantee*
that version M is "better" than N. The benefits far outweigh the
risks. It will have fewer bugs, better features, and a better API.
Don't be afraid to upgrade from N to M. The developers are in fact
*depending* on people to do so; it's the best way to ensure that svn
1.0 is the most stable thing ever. We can't accept bug reports on
older versions, because the "community" is busy
debugging/developing/testing the latest release. If you run an older
release, you're going to get left behind, and ultimately end up with
zero tech support. The "safest" release is always the latest one.
When we get to 1.0, then you can "settle in" and get comfy, and know
that things will be well-supported.
So until 1.0, it's really much wiser to upgrade constantly. Once we
reach 1.0, it makes sense to drop back into the conventional routine.
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Re: Files not downloaded on checkout
Posted by Geoff Beaumont <ge...@stormhammer.com>.
Ben Collins-Sussman wrote:
> Then you shouldn't be using unreleased, alpha software. :-)
A calculated risk ;c)
Even as alpha, Subversion seems to have a better security record than
many full release packages.
> Seriously... I'm thrilled that popular distributions (like SuSE or
> Redhat9) are distributing subversion, it's great marketing. But the
> problem is that people then consider some 3 or 6-month old version of
> svn to be a "standard OS package" or something "managed" by the OS.
It's a standard package for SuSE 8.2, and should therefore be patched if
there are any security holes found in it. I guess there's a
significantly higher risk of the security hole not getting found in
alpha software, as the version most developers will be looking at will
be the latest, or very close too.
> A new version of subversion is released every 2-4 weeks, and
> distributions are not. Unless the distros start releasing new binary
> packages every time svn releases, people are going to run into version
> mismatch problems very quickly.
That's not really a problem in this case, as this is the only Subversion
repositary used by any of the clients, so as long as they are all the
same version it doesn't matter that they aren't up to date.
> I guess the warning here is: if you depend on subversion, then make
> sure you're running the latest release at all times, at least till we
> hit 1.0. If your distro upgrades it for you, then great. If the
> distro isn't keeping up, you need to be building from source regularly.
I take your point, though I'd have thought that if you depend_ on
Subversion, the last_ thing you'd want to be doing is upgrading it every
month...
I should probably be using CVS, but I've tried it before and it drove me
up the wall. So far, I'm really impressed with Subversion. It happens I
do occasionally rename files and directories...
--
Geoff Beaumont
geoffbeaumont@stormhammer.com
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Re: Files not downloaded on checkout
Posted by David Summers <da...@summersoft.fay.ar.us>.
On 4 Jul 2003, Ben Collins-Sussman wrote:
> Then you shouldn't be using unreleased, alpha software. :-)
>
> Seriously... I'm thrilled that popular distributions (like SuSE or
> Redhat9) are distributing subversion, it's great marketing. But the
> problem is that people then consider some 3 or 6-month old version of
> svn to be a "standard OS package" or something "managed" by the OS.
>
> A new version of subversion is released every 2-4 weeks, and
> distributions are not. Unless the distros start releasing new binary
> packages every time svn releases, people are going to run into version
> mismatch problems very quickly.
>
> I guess the warning here is: if you depend on subversion, then make
> sure you're running the latest release at all times, at least till we
> hit 1.0. If your distro upgrades it for you, then great. If the
> distro isn't keeping up, you need to be building from source regularly.
>
Or find someone who can generate distro packages for you. :-)
--
David Wayne Summers "Linux: Because reboots are for hardware upgrades!"
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Re: Files not downloaded on checkout
Posted by Ben Collins-Sussman <su...@collab.net>.
Geoff Beaumont <ge...@stormhammer.com> writes:
> Hmm, ideally I don't want to upgrade the server as it's exposed to the
> Internet. At the moment it uses standard SuSE 8.2 packages and if SuSE
> release security patches they'll be applied automatically. I don't want
> to have to track any software on this machine manually, particularly as
> I can't guarantee being able to do so quickly if a security hole is
> discovered.
Then you shouldn't be using unreleased, alpha software. :-)
Seriously... I'm thrilled that popular distributions (like SuSE or
Redhat9) are distributing subversion, it's great marketing. But the
problem is that people then consider some 3 or 6-month old version of
svn to be a "standard OS package" or something "managed" by the OS.
A new version of subversion is released every 2-4 weeks, and
distributions are not. Unless the distros start releasing new binary
packages every time svn releases, people are going to run into version
mismatch problems very quickly.
I guess the warning here is: if you depend on subversion, then make
sure you're running the latest release at all times, at least till we
hit 1.0. If your distro upgrades it for you, then great. If the
distro isn't keeping up, you need to be building from source regularly.
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Re: Files not downloaded on checkout
Posted by Geoff Beaumont <ge...@stormhammer.com>.
Garrett Rooney wrote:
> Geoff Beaumont wrote:
>
>> Could the version difference have anything to do with this? Is there
>> anything else we should look at?
>
>
> It's the version difference. You need to upgrade the server if you want
> to work with a newer client (actually, you should upgrade the server
> anyway, we've fixed a lot of bugs in the meantime ;-). Subversion is
> only backwards compatable withing one major version number, so a 0.24.x
> client will work with a 0.23.x server, but anything older than that it
> might not.
Hmm, ideally I don't want to upgrade the server as it's exposed to the
Internet. At the moment it uses standard SuSE 8.2 packages and if SuSE
release security patches they'll be applied automatically. I don't want
to have to track any software on this machine manually, particularly as
I can't guarantee being able to do so quickly if a security hole is
discovered.
Are there any issues with older clients accessing more recent servers
(within reason - I appreciate Subversion's still officially alpha)?
--
Geoff Beaumont
geoffbeaumont@stormhammer.com
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Re: Files not downloaded on checkout
Posted by Garrett Rooney <ro...@electricjellyfish.net>.
Geoff Beaumont wrote:
> Could the version difference have anything to do with this? Is there anything
> else we should look at?
It's the version difference. You need to upgrade the server if you want
to work with a newer client (actually, you should upgrade the server
anyway, we've fixed a lot of bugs in the meantime ;-). Subversion is
only backwards compatable withing one major version number, so a 0.24.x
client will work with a 0.23.x server, but anything older than that it
might not.
-garrett
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Re: Files not downloaded on checkout
Posted by Olaf Hering <ol...@suse.de>.
On Fri, Jul 04, Geoff Beaumont wrote:
> I've had a look at the issue log and couldn't see anything about this; I have
> a subversion repository, accessed using Apache/WebDAV. The server is
> Subversion 0.17.1 on SuSE Linux. I have no problems using the repository from
> SuSE/0.17.1 client, but another user of the repository has Subversion 0.24.2
> on Mac OS X - when he checks out from the repository the directory structure
> is created in his working copy but no files are downloaded.
>
> Could the version difference have anything to do with this? Is there anything
> else we should look at?
Follow the links to the distribution packages site on
subversion.tigris.org and grab the stuff for SuSE. You will find a 0.23
package for 8.2.
http://subversion.tigris.org/project_packages.html
Gruss Olaf
--
USB is for mice, FireWire is for men!
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