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Posted to general@jakarta.apache.org by Leo Simons <ma...@leosimons.com> on 2002/02/23 12:33:02 UTC
The Complete Server Platform?
There has been a lot of talk about what is wrong with the
current main enterprise server platforms, whether it's
about J2EE, .Net or Oracle.
Many of the Jakarta projects provide a (IMHO) superior
alternative to parts of those platforms. Yet Jakarta as a
whole does not provide an alternative to the entire
platform.
I think it would be good if it did.
------------------------------------------------------------
Why An Integrated Solution Would Be Nice
------------------------------------------------------------
...should be rather obvious. The advantages are exactly what
makes many companies get a "complete solution" rather than a
loose set of components tied together.
Imagine:
"Welcome to the Jakarta software platform. _click here_ to
download the Jakarta Server Development Kit. It includes all
documentation you need; the documenation is also _available
online_.
Extensions to the base framework include content management
tools, template engines, and implementations of many
important java standards like Servlets and JMX. Browse the
_Jakarta Server Component Library_ to find the applications
you need."
------------------------------------------------------------
Why It Doesn't Happen
------------------------------------------------------------
...is also pretty straightforward. Individual developers
work on the various Jakarta projects because they have an
immediate, specific need for the project they're working
on. So that's what they do.
There isn't enough people around devoting energy to
inter-project communication to get an integration project
underway.
------------------------------------------------------------
What To Do
------------------------------------------------------------
Besides paying Sam Ruby to become a fulltime communications
manager, there's a few things I think would help
integration.
1) as proposed before, a separate (from general) mailinglist
dedicated to general discussion. Sharing thoughts should
develop into sharing code every so often.
2) a statement of intent in important places on the website.
I'm guessing that putting "we would like to see tomcat
integrate with avalon" on the projects' respective websites
would mean that such will happen sooner.
3) creation of implementations of Java APIs that increase
interoperability between applications (JMX, JNDI, JMS).
Having a JMX implementation within the Apache fold would
definately ease the tying together of projects.
------------------------------------------------------------
Why This Rant
------------------------------------------------------------
I'm trying to state the obvious here. If anything, I'm
curious if anyone has figured out yet where jakarta wants
the balance between total-control-of-direction-from-above
and total-chaos-where-the-only-authority-is-cvs to be.
best regards,
- Leo Simons
(Avalon project)
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Re: The Complete Server Platform?
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
On Sun, 2002-02-24 at 10:30, Ted Husted wrote:
> Leo Simons wrote:
> > 2) a statement of intent in important places on the website.
> > I'm guessing that putting "we would like to see tomcat
> > integrate with avalon" on the projects' respective websites
> > would mean that such will happen sooner.
>
> My concern would be that this promotes a "We are Borg" attitude.
>
+1 That looks like the kind of statement that cannot be reached by
consensus. I'm sure there are two sides to that idea..
> Why would "we" like to see Avalon integrate with Tomcat? Why not Jetty
> or Resin?
>
*shrugs* if the Avalon folks want to see it then I guess they'd
contribute to Tomcat..
> If our committers are choosing to use Tomcat because it meets their
> real-life needs, then why would "we" have to tell them that. Won't they
> just do it because they need it?
>
IMHO, there should be a *slant* towards inter-Apache-community
cross-breeding. Not Nazi enforcement...
> IMHO, committers should decide what is best for their product first. If
> we all do that, and we all create best-of-breed products, then
> interoperability will be a natural occurance.
>
+1
> If it is not a natural occurance, then we are mixing politics with
> technology ... We would simply be replacing the Dark Lords with a Dark
> Lady.
>
*shrugs* Ladies are prettier
> AFAIK, we don't tell Jakarta committers to use Ant. They choose Ant
> because it is a great tool. The same should go for every Jakarta or ASF
> product.
>
+1 - Ant RULEZ! Make SUCKS!
> Meanwhile, I do think documenting how J2SE (Standard Edition)
> technologies can provide an end-to-end solution is a great idea. For
> example, jGuru is running on Resin, Lucene, James, and JSPs. Scales
> great, and not an EJB to be found.
>
+1
> So, should we (meaning I) write that up as a case study and post it on
> the site? Or, pass because they are not using Tomcat?
>
I think they should be using SOME jakarta technologies otherwise it
kinda doesn't look like the right site, but *shrugs*.
> AFAIK, Apache is part of the JS2E group, rather than the J2EE group, so
> it seems to me that promoting J2SE solutions is a natural thing for us
> to do, regardless of who provides the underlying product.
>
IMHO: g/Apache/s//Jakarta/g
(Httpd has little to do with J2-anything)
Right, but I think providing "server-side" alternatives to J2EE is a
good thing. Whether Jakarta should do it *shrug*...I think its a good
idea... But its already happening -- Thanks Paul Hammant.. That seems
like the best way to show the "Jakarta Position" to the JSPA.. There is
nothing like doing something better to really make the point sink. Will
it be better *shrugs* hope so.. It will certainly be more open. I
applaud Paul et al's efforts and I'll come around as soon as my plate
clears some (I mean it).
Oh the amazing power of those who do.
-Andy
> -- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY US
> -- Developing Java Web Applications with Struts
> -- Tel: +1 585 737-3463
> -- Web: http://husted.com/struts
>
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Re: The Complete Server Platform?
Posted by Paul Hammant <Pa...@yahoo.com>.
Leo,
>Jahia
>-----
>goal: provide portal solution built on J2EE components.
>notes: Paul, seems like a shrink-wrap commercial
> solution to me???
>
It is. I was just pointing to it as some of the described
plans/proposal were sounded like what it had done.
>Enhydra
>-------
>license: Enhydra Public License (Mozilla-style)
>
No so, forked into proprietary I think.
Similar story to http://www.simpledb.org/ I think.
>EAS
>---
>goal: provide BSD-style license J2EE server.
>offers: Servlets/JSP, EJB, Avalon
>license: BSD-Style
>url: http://eas.betaversion.org
>status: alpha
>note: been dead a while now as backing company went
> bankrupt.
>
>----------------------------
>OPEN ENTERPRISE DISTRIBUTION
>----------------------------
>
I kinda have a problem with a project that pulls toegther other projects
(as it's aim). I would hope that we will one day be able to download
blocks and SARs for server applications and just drop them into an apps/
dir of Phoenix. Maye my issue is that I am unsure whether this is a
project hoping to make RFC complaint servercomps in one 'product' or
whether it is something else.
>Candidate Components For Inclusion
>----------------------------------
>Jakarta:
> Avalon
> Struts
> Turbine
> Velocity
> James
> Jetspeed
> Slide
> Tomcat
>
Some of there are dependant on the Servlet API and thus are WebApps or
tools used to build webapps. Therefore they are no so big an issue as
the contract for containment of a webapp is quite well defined (WAR
file). Resin, Orion, Tomcat(s) Jetty, Jo can all mount them.
>Apache XML:
> Cocoon
> SOAP
>
>SourceForge:
> Enterprise Object Broker
>
Just to remind everyone this is a "transparent bean publisher" that some
people might want to use instead of J2EE app servers. We have three
demos that work now.
><snip/>
>
>
>This e-mail is now officially more than long
>enough.
>
Then trim out the previous quoted stuff dude ;-)
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Re: The Complete Server Platform?
Posted by Andrus Adamchik <an...@objectstyle.org>.
Tim Hyde wrote:
> Perhaps one thing that could be sensibly done is to strengthen the packaging
> and market visibility of the things in the Jakarta family ? A great deal of
> pre-selection has already been done, and there is already a project name -
> Jakarta. 'Jakarta Development Kit' might not be the best proposal, but there
> again ...
I haven't suggested this myself since I had a feeling that the project
must materialize first before anybody would vote +1 to make it Jakarta.
There was also a "borg" concern. I think you address it well in the next
paragraph.
>
> There needn't be any intention on 'family' grounds to exclude any other
> toolset that was seen to be useful, but I can't quite get my head round the
> difficulties of choosing candidates or the weakness of too much dilution.
> Again, these are things that Jakarta has inherently worked through.
>
> Does this make the proposal any more practical ? Are there serious areas
> which Jakarta is missing ?
We are seeing now the main problem here: getting a consensus on what to
include. For instance I would offer Cayenne (
http://objectstyle.org/cayenne/ ) as a data layer and o/r mapping tool
for this project, someone else would offer Torque or Osage, etc.
Maybe this needs to be organized by use case. For example we have a use
case : "writing a database aware web application". Say a bug tracking
system. Volunteers working on the OED project make design proposals. One
(or maybe 2 or 3 that are chosen) are used to implement such a system
(or a prototype of such system to cut on time). Implementations are done
in a way separating OED part from custom code so that. By evaluating
custom code and what it takes to write and maintain it we may be coming
with a winner combination.
I mentioned bug tracking since I started one such system now to evaluate
Cayenne. I will start doing it in such a "OED format" fashion to see
what comes out.
Also Somebody donating existing end user projects for such a case study
would speed up things a lot.
> Perhaps one of the more useful things we might be able to add are design
> papers un-biassed by the issues of market orthodoxies - even to the extent
> of pointing out areas where the Jakarta technologies aren't the best. Or is
> that getting too altruistic ?-)
This is a good idea, but this is a different issue. I was thinking more
of a package with documentation rather then a paper on how to write apps.
> - Tim
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list email: andrus-jk at objectstyle dot org
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Re: The Complete Server Platform?
Posted by Tim Hyde <ti...@csi.com>.
Moving slightly retrograde on the proposal (in case we missed something ...)
I think my suggestion for 'alternative to J2EE' probably muddies the waters.
There are a lot of candidates for inclusion, and it would be a horrible
mail-fest even to think about choosing them. One focus must be to make
selecting and evaluation a tool a relatively lightweight task for the
intending user - because if it's part of this platform, (s)he will *know* it
delivers.
GJT comes to mind as something to be added to Leo's list of similar efforts,
and I expect the list would end up quite long.
Perhaps one thing that could be sensibly done is to strengthen the packaging
and market visibility of the things in the Jakarta family ? A great deal of
pre-selection has already been done, and there is already a project name -
Jakarta. 'Jakarta Development Kit' might not be the best proposal, but there
again ...
There needn't be any intention on 'family' grounds to exclude any other
toolset that was seen to be useful, but I can't quite get my head round the
difficulties of choosing candidates or the weakness of too much dilution.
Again, these are things that Jakarta has inherently worked through.
Does this make the proposal any more practical ? Are there serious areas
which Jakarta is missing ?
Perhaps one of the more useful things we might be able to add are design
papers un-biassed by the issues of market orthodoxies - even to the extent
of pointing out areas where the Jakarta technologies aren't the best. Or is
that getting too altruistic ?-)
- Tim
----- Original Message -----
From: Leo Simons <ma...@leosimons.com>
To: Jakarta General List <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: 25 February 2002 11:00
Subject: RE: The Complete Server Platform?
>
> 'kay. Summary:
> (everyone, please correct and add to?)
>
> ---------------
> SIMILAR EFFORTS
> ---------------
> Here's a list of similar efforts that I know of...
> (requirments:
> 1) some kind of application platform
> 2) 100% java
> 3) open source)
>
> JBoss
> Jahia
> Enhydra
> EAS
> OPEN ENTERPRISE DISTRIBUTION
>
> Candidate Components For Inclusion
> ----------------------------------
> Jakarta:
> Apache XML:
> SourceForge:
> Exolab:
> (...)
>
> Clearly, there are loads. We need some criteria.
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RE: The Complete Server Platform?
Posted by Leo Simons <ma...@leosimons.com>.
'kay. Summary:
(everyone, please correct and add to?)
---------------
SIMILAR EFFORTS
---------------
Here's a list of similar efforts that I know of...
(requirments:
1) some kind of application platform
2) 100% java
3) open source)
JBoss
-----
goal: provide open source J2EE server.
offers: J2EE compliance, EJB, JMS, O/R-mapping, JNDI,
JCA, JTA/JTS, JAAS, GUI Management (JMX),
Servlet/JSP, Database, JDO
license: LGPL
url: http://www.jboss.org
status: release
notes: huge developer community
Jahia
-----
goal: provide portal solution built on J2EE components.
offers: JBoss, Database, Servlet/JSP, custom portal
server (dunno what it does as the installer
fails on my win2000 box)
license: Jahia License (commercial)
url: http://products.xo3.com:8080/
status: (preliminary) release
notes: Paul, seems like a shrink-wrap commercial
solution to me???
Enhydra
-------
goal: provide open source web application server.
offers: Servlets/JSP, Template Engine (XMLC), Sessions,
Database connectivity, MVC Framework
license: Enhydra Public License (Mozilla-style)
url: http://www.enhydra.org
status: release
note: dying slowly it seems, as Lutris is pulling out
EAS
---
goal: provide BSD-style license J2EE server.
offers: Servlets/JSP, EJB, Avalon
license: BSD-Style
url: http://eas.betaversion.org
status: alpha
note: been dead a while now as backing company went
bankrupt.
----------------------------
OPEN ENTERPRISE DISTRIBUTION
----------------------------
goal: provide an open source alternative architecture to
J2EE.
offers: Database, Pooling, Logging, Management, etc.
(to be defined)
license: Apache-style
url: none (will be sourceforge)
status: conceptual
Candidate Components For Inclusion
----------------------------------
Jakarta:
Avalon
Struts
Turbine
Velocity
James
Jetspeed
Slide
Tomcat
Apache XML:
Cocoon
SOAP
SourceForge:
Enterprise Object Broker
Simper (soon, anyway)
HSQL
Ozone
JBoss
Maverick
Jetty
Niggle
OpenCMS
Pi
(...the list goes on and on...)
Exolab:
OpenEJB
OpenJMS
OpenORB
Castor
Tyrex
(...)
Clearly, there are loads. We need some criteria.
Architecture
------------
One thing I think OEB needs is formalization of
the patterns of choice in the form of core
interfaces. The two projects I know that deal
with that are Avalon and Turbine.
Another thing it needs is a definition of how it
"glues". Options are JNDI, SOAP, JMX, Avalon
Service framework, Turbine Services Framework,
CORBA...and I'm sure I'm missing a few.
Of those, of course _I_ am in favor of the
setup Avalon uses, but hey ;)
This e-mail is now officially more than long
enough.
cheers,
- Leo
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: Andrus Adamchik [mailto:andrus-jk@objectstyle.org]
Verzonden: maandag 25 februari 2002 1:27
Aan: Jakarta General List
Onderwerp: Re: The Complete Server Platform?
Tim Hyde wrote:
> Andrus,
>
> I'm 100% behind the idea of the complete platform, but I'm worried that
your
> proposal talks about 'Web Applications'.
>
> I believe that what's needed is an alternative to the very idea that J2EE
> (or even J2SE) is *the* definitive collection of java libraries, and that
> the project should offering a number of sensible alternatives for use in
any
> architecture.
We still will depend on certain commercial JVM's (Sun or IBM), right?
> Database access, Logging, and Development Process are three things that
> you've specifically mentioned that aren't particularly Web or Server
> oriented.
>
> Web Applications, or Server Applications, are more part of today's
'fashion'
> than inherent categories of how you make a computing solution, and we can
> expect things to move on during the lifetime of Java. Well, we can hope,
> anyway. :-)
You are right. I was mentioning Web applications just cause I wanted to
limit initial scope to something sane. And I guess because I am myself
is a better expert in this area then in any other. This would've helped
to concentrate on a certain solution-based approach from the beginning.
But I agree we can widen the scope as long as we can outline the
problems being solved.
>
> So, if possible, why not talk about a 'development and deployment platform
> for Java applications' - and then start off by assembling both the
> underlying 'component' toolsets and a number of combination-examples, such
> as the jGuru one Ted mentioned, and whatever else might emerge during the
> project as perhaps 'miniature live examples'.
+1, like I said above, I am for it if we define use cases we are going
after.
> Naturally, server applications are the primary interest point initially,
but
> it would be nice to think that the collection of tools being provided for
> distribution would be offered as having wide applicability.
>
> In particular, I believe that if a thing like this is available *and gets
> marketed* (in the Red Hat sense) properly, we could start to see the
> weakening of the Dilbert idea that only vendor-supplied products are
> 'serious' tools.
>
> This *marketing* focus is the very thing I had settled on as being the
> logical conclusion of the recent threads (J2EE considered harmful,
EJB=Bad,
> etc). A way to bring the marketplace to see that there are better
> alternatives than the Dark Lords. Hence the marketing side (meaning actual
> activity to spread the word and work in PR mode with the media) needs to
be
> a vital part of this project, needing volunteers of a different sort than
> technicians.
>
> But assembling the distribution first is very important, and I'm with you
on
> this.
yes, this should be the starting point
>
> One small extra: if a RedHat style toolkit distribution were available,
the
> number of independent consultants who could offer their support services
> would exceed the number available to BEA, for example, eliminating that
> argument that 'I buy where I can depend on getting support'. Well, we can
> dream, anyway.
+1. I am an independent consultant myself, and I would stick with a
technology that
- allows me to concentrate on customer requirements rather then
repetitive coding tasks,
- offers strong design direction,
- implemented most of the standard tasks already.
The only thing that would prevent me from using such technology is that
customer's CIO has never read about it in JDJ.
>
> I had been considering a project along these lines, and had thought of the
> name 'Tonic', both because it might revive a sickening architecture and
> because the Tonic (in musical terms) is where you want to go after the
> Dominant :-)
>
> But, if OED is the same thing, yes, what's in a name ? But, think
marketing
> eventually !!
I like the name Tonic, but I think Open Enterprise Distribution may
actually serve that same marketing goal better. It does sound ..umm..
serious or something :-)
..
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list email: andrus-jk at objectstyle dot org
personal email: andrus at objectstyle dot org
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Re: The Complete Server Platform?
Posted by Andrus Adamchik <an...@objectstyle.org>.
Tim Hyde wrote:
> Andrus,
>
> I'm 100% behind the idea of the complete platform, but I'm worried that your
> proposal talks about 'Web Applications'.
>
> I believe that what's needed is an alternative to the very idea that J2EE
> (or even J2SE) is *the* definitive collection of java libraries, and that
> the project should offering a number of sensible alternatives for use in any
> architecture.
We still will depend on certain commercial JVM's (Sun or IBM), right?
> Database access, Logging, and Development Process are three things that
> you've specifically mentioned that aren't particularly Web or Server
> oriented.
>
> Web Applications, or Server Applications, are more part of today's 'fashion'
> than inherent categories of how you make a computing solution, and we can
> expect things to move on during the lifetime of Java. Well, we can hope,
> anyway. :-)
You are right. I was mentioning Web applications just cause I wanted to
limit initial scope to something sane. And I guess because I am myself
is a better expert in this area then in any other. This would've helped
to concentrate on a certain solution-based approach from the beginning.
But I agree we can widen the scope as long as we can outline the
problems being solved.
>
> So, if possible, why not talk about a 'development and deployment platform
> for Java applications' - and then start off by assembling both the
> underlying 'component' toolsets and a number of combination-examples, such
> as the jGuru one Ted mentioned, and whatever else might emerge during the
> project as perhaps 'miniature live examples'.
+1, like I said above, I am for it if we define use cases we are going
after.
> Naturally, server applications are the primary interest point initially, but
> it would be nice to think that the collection of tools being provided for
> distribution would be offered as having wide applicability.
>
> In particular, I believe that if a thing like this is available *and gets
> marketed* (in the Red Hat sense) properly, we could start to see the
> weakening of the Dilbert idea that only vendor-supplied products are
> 'serious' tools.
>
> This *marketing* focus is the very thing I had settled on as being the
> logical conclusion of the recent threads (J2EE considered harmful, EJB=Bad,
> etc). A way to bring the marketplace to see that there are better
> alternatives than the Dark Lords. Hence the marketing side (meaning actual
> activity to spread the word and work in PR mode with the media) needs to be
> a vital part of this project, needing volunteers of a different sort than
> technicians.
>
> But assembling the distribution first is very important, and I'm with you on
> this.
yes, this should be the starting point
>
> One small extra: if a RedHat style toolkit distribution were available, the
> number of independent consultants who could offer their support services
> would exceed the number available to BEA, for example, eliminating that
> argument that 'I buy where I can depend on getting support'. Well, we can
> dream, anyway.
+1. I am an independent consultant myself, and I would stick with a
technology that
- allows me to concentrate on customer requirements rather then
repetitive coding tasks,
- offers strong design direction,
- implemented most of the standard tasks already.
The only thing that would prevent me from using such technology is that
customer's CIO has never read about it in JDJ.
>
> I had been considering a project along these lines, and had thought of the
> name 'Tonic', both because it might revive a sickening architecture and
> because the Tonic (in musical terms) is where you want to go after the
> Dominant :-)
>
> But, if OED is the same thing, yes, what's in a name ? But, think marketing
> eventually !!
I like the name Tonic, but I think Open Enterprise Distribution may
actually serve that same marketing goal better. It does sound ..umm..
serious or something :-)
.
--
~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
- Andrei (a.k.a. Andrus) Adamchik
http://objectstyle.org
list email: andrus-jk at objectstyle dot org
personal email: andrus at objectstyle dot org
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Re: The Complete Server Platform?
Posted by Tim Hyde <ti...@csi.com>.
Andrus,
I'm 100% behind the idea of the complete platform, but I'm worried that your
proposal talks about 'Web Applications'.
I believe that what's needed is an alternative to the very idea that J2EE
(or even J2SE) is *the* definitive collection of java libraries, and that
the project should offering a number of sensible alternatives for use in any
architecture.
Database access, Logging, and Development Process are three things that
you've specifically mentioned that aren't particularly Web or Server
oriented.
Web Applications, or Server Applications, are more part of today's 'fashion'
than inherent categories of how you make a computing solution, and we can
expect things to move on during the lifetime of Java. Well, we can hope,
anyway. :-)
So, if possible, why not talk about a 'development and deployment platform
for Java applications' - and then start off by assembling both the
underlying 'component' toolsets and a number of combination-examples, such
as the jGuru one Ted mentioned, and whatever else might emerge during the
project as perhaps 'miniature live examples'.
Naturally, server applications are the primary interest point initially, but
it would be nice to think that the collection of tools being provided for
distribution would be offered as having wide applicability.
In particular, I believe that if a thing like this is available *and gets
marketed* (in the Red Hat sense) properly, we could start to see the
weakening of the Dilbert idea that only vendor-supplied products are
'serious' tools.
This *marketing* focus is the very thing I had settled on as being the
logical conclusion of the recent threads (J2EE considered harmful, EJB=Bad,
etc). A way to bring the marketplace to see that there are better
alternatives than the Dark Lords. Hence the marketing side (meaning actual
activity to spread the word and work in PR mode with the media) needs to be
a vital part of this project, needing volunteers of a different sort than
technicians.
But assembling the distribution first is very important, and I'm with you on
this.
One small extra: if a RedHat style toolkit distribution were available, the
number of independent consultants who could offer their support services
would exceed the number available to BEA, for example, eliminating that
argument that 'I buy where I can depend on getting support'. Well, we can
dream, anyway.
I had been considering a project along these lines, and had thought of the
name 'Tonic', both because it might revive a sickening architecture and
because the Tonic (in musical terms) is where you want to go after the
Dominant :-)
But, if OED is the same thing, yes, what's in a name ? But, think marketing
eventually !!
- Tim
----- Original Message -----
From: Andrus Adamchik <an...@objectstyle.org>
To: Jakarta General List <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: 24 February 2002 21:38
Subject: Re: The Complete Server Platform?
>
> Meaningful names are OK with me too :-) . Suggested versions revolve
> around Enterprise Distribution idea. I personally like "Open Enterprise
> Distribution", with OED acronym used interchangebly. I will register SF
> project under this name and let everybody know when the registration
> goes through.
>
>
>
> Bill Barnhill wrote:
> > How about a (semi?)-catchy name and a meaningful name--
> > Open Distribution for the Enterprise -- ODE
> >
> > Just my two cents,
> > Bill Barnhill
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>
> > To: "Jakarta General List" <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2002 11:32 AM
> > Subject: Re: The Complete Server Platform?
> >
> >
> >
> >>Open Enterprise Distribution ... I'm bigger into descriptive names that
> >>mean something when they don't cause lawsuits...
> >>
> >>:-)
> >>
> >>You asked... What's in a name?
> >>
> >>-Andy
> >>
>
>
> --
> ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
> - Andrei (a.k.a. Andrus) Adamchik
> http://objectstyle.org
> list email: andrus-jk at objectstyle dot org
> personal email: andrus at objectstyle dot org
>
>
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>
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Re: The Complete Server Platform?
Posted by Andrus Adamchik <an...@objectstyle.org>.
Meaningful names are OK with me too :-) . Suggested versions revolve
around Enterprise Distribution idea. I personally like "Open Enterprise
Distribution", with OED acronym used interchangebly. I will register SF
project under this name and let everybody know when the registration
goes through.
Bill Barnhill wrote:
> How about a (semi?)-catchy name and a meaningful name--
> Open Distribution for the Enterprise -- ODE
>
> Just my two cents,
> Bill Barnhill
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>
> To: "Jakarta General List" <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>
> Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2002 11:32 AM
> Subject: Re: The Complete Server Platform?
>
>
>
>>Open Enterprise Distribution ... I'm bigger into descriptive names that
>>mean something when they don't cause lawsuits...
>>
>>:-)
>>
>>You asked... What's in a name?
>>
>>-Andy
>>
--
~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
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http://objectstyle.org
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Re: The Complete Server Platform?
Posted by Paul Hammant <Pa...@yahoo.com>.
Bill, Andrew, Andrus, Marc,
>How about a (semi?)-catchy name and a meaningful name--
>Open Distribution for the Enterprise -- ODE
>
Recap: This is a webapp project you are talking of? Or something that
serves multiple server components (from Apache and others).
The below was a project I very briefly worked on with many others to
produce a server that presented JBoss, Tomcat, Hypersonic, Cocoon,
Turbine, JetSpeed all in one VM. It was callled OpenJODA then, now with
a new codebase and renamed Jahia:
http://www.xo3.com:8080/
Regards,
- Paul H
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Re: The Complete Server Platform?
Posted by Bill Barnhill <wb...@twcny.rr.com>.
How about a (semi?)-catchy name and a meaningful name--
Open Distribution for the Enterprise -- ODE
Just my two cents,
Bill Barnhill
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>
To: "Jakarta General List" <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2002 11:32 AM
Subject: Re: The Complete Server Platform?
> Open Enterprise Distribution ... I'm bigger into descriptive names that
> mean something when they don't cause lawsuits...
>
> :-)
>
> You asked... What's in a name?
>
> -Andy
>
>
> On Sun, 2002-02-24 at 13:52, Andrus Adamchik wrote:
> > Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> > > On Sun, 2002-02-24 at 12:42, Andrus Adamchik wrote
> > >>This is exactly why I think setting up a separate project would be a
> > >>good idea. A project that would realize the concept of a platform that
> > >>uses open tools (as opposed to jakarta-only tools). Though of course
it
> > >>will most likely be 70-80% Jakarta based.
> > >
> > >
> > > +1 -- I think eventually it could be brought to Jakarta if it was
> > > successful
> >
> > I am ready to setup a project on SourceForge. Any name suggestions? How
> > about "Fusion"? Kind of on topic, though sounds like ColdFusion.
> >
> > When the name is decided upon we can transfer this discussion to
> > SourceForge, though I of course have a lot of hope that this community
> > will be interested enough to provide input. Especially since this
> > project is not so much about coding, but rather architecture.
> >
> > --
> > ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
> > - Andrei (a.k.a. Andrus) Adamchik
> > http://objectstyle.org
> > email: andrus at objectstyle dot org
> >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
<ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > For additional commands, e-mail:
<ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> >
> --
> http://www.superlinksoftware.com
> http://jakarta.apache.org - port of Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document
> format to java
> http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html
> - fix java generics!
> The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
> vote.
> -Ambassador Kosh
>
>
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>
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Re: The Complete Server Platform?
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
Open Enterprise Distribution ... I'm bigger into descriptive names that
mean something when they don't cause lawsuits...
:-)
You asked... What's in a name?
-Andy
On Sun, 2002-02-24 at 13:52, Andrus Adamchik wrote:
> Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> > On Sun, 2002-02-24 at 12:42, Andrus Adamchik wrote
> >>This is exactly why I think setting up a separate project would be a
> >>good idea. A project that would realize the concept of a platform that
> >>uses open tools (as opposed to jakarta-only tools). Though of course it
> >>will most likely be 70-80% Jakarta based.
> >
> >
> > +1 -- I think eventually it could be brought to Jakarta if it was
> > successful
>
> I am ready to setup a project on SourceForge. Any name suggestions? How
> about "Fusion"? Kind of on topic, though sounds like ColdFusion.
>
> When the name is decided upon we can transfer this discussion to
> SourceForge, though I of course have a lot of hope that this community
> will be interested enough to provide input. Especially since this
> project is not so much about coding, but rather architecture.
>
> --
> ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
> - Andrei (a.k.a. Andrus) Adamchik
> http://objectstyle.org
> email: andrus at objectstyle dot org
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>
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http://jakarta.apache.org - port of Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document
format to java
http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html
- fix java generics!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
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-Ambassador Kosh
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Re: The Complete Server Platform?
Posted by Andrus Adamchik <an...@objectstyle.org>.
Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> On Sun, 2002-02-24 at 12:42, Andrus Adamchik wrote
>>This is exactly why I think setting up a separate project would be a
>>good idea. A project that would realize the concept of a platform that
>>uses open tools (as opposed to jakarta-only tools). Though of course it
>>will most likely be 70-80% Jakarta based.
>
>
> +1 -- I think eventually it could be brought to Jakarta if it was
> successful
I am ready to setup a project on SourceForge. Any name suggestions? How
about "Fusion"? Kind of on topic, though sounds like ColdFusion.
When the name is decided upon we can transfer this discussion to
SourceForge, though I of course have a lot of hope that this community
will be interested enough to provide input. Especially since this
project is not so much about coding, but rather architecture.
--
~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
- Andrei (a.k.a. Andrus) Adamchik
http://objectstyle.org
email: andrus at objectstyle dot org
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Re: The Complete Server Platform?
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
On Sun, 2002-02-24 at 12:42, Andrus Adamchik wrote:
>
> Ted Husted wrote:
> >
> > My concern would be that this promotes a "We are Borg" attitude.
> >
>
> This is exactly why I think setting up a separate project would be a
> good idea. A project that would realize the concept of a platform that
> uses open tools (as opposed to jakarta-only tools). Though of course it
> will most likely be 70-80% Jakarta based.
>
+1 -- I think eventually it could be brought to Jakarta if it was
successful.
>
> Here is a draft of proposed project description:
> ---------------------------------------------------
>
> Project XYZ (replace with a catchy name :-)) is dedicated to creation of
> development and deployment platform for Java web applications. It is
> based on other open technologies. Each one of such technologies
> specializes in a certain area of web application building, such as XML,
> HTML creation, database access, logging, Java development process
> support, etc. Project XYZ is a fusion of these technologies into a Java
> server solution that covers all parts of the spectrum. Also it
> introduces extensions (... need to be defined ...).
>
> Other project goals are:
>
> - to create a lower entry barrier for web application developers to use
> state of the art technology by providing a single full solution "that works"
> - to realize our vision of the best design and development practices
> - ....
>
+1
>
> Project goals are NOT:
>
> - to set the only acceptable way of doing things in Java
> - to reduce the importance of technologies that are not in the core of
> XYZ project
>
> ---------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Here is a comparison to show why such a project is needed and why this
> is a good thing. Take Linux example. How many people in the world could
> take kernel code and GNU compiler and make a system that even boots?
> With the emergence of companies like RedHat, people received this
> missing piece - packaging. It was at least as important as kernel code
> itself. And RedHat is not the only way to package Linux, so nobody
> really thinks that RedHat "stole Linux".
>
-1 - You'll have some issues basing a project on GNU stuff. Legal
issues. You have to make sure whatever it is -- is LGPL not
GPL...otherwise you'll need good lawyers to prove the GPL virus clause
invalid.
> I think here we have a similar situation - full platform solution will
> make life easier for many people, while no harm will be done to the
> foundation projects and their alternatives.
+1
-Andy
> --
> ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
> - Andrei (a.k.a. Andrus) Adamchik
> http://objectstyle.org
> list email: andrus-jk at objectstyle dot org
> personal email: andrus at objectstyle dot org
>
>
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
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>
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format to java
http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html
- fix java generics!
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Re: The Complete Server Platform?
Posted by Andrus Adamchik <an...@objectstyle.org>.
Ted Husted wrote:
>
> My concern would be that this promotes a "We are Borg" attitude.
>
This is exactly why I think setting up a separate project would be a
good idea. A project that would realize the concept of a platform that
uses open tools (as opposed to jakarta-only tools). Though of course it
will most likely be 70-80% Jakarta based.
Here is a draft of proposed project description:
---------------------------------------------------
Project XYZ (replace with a catchy name :-)) is dedicated to creation of
development and deployment platform for Java web applications. It is
based on other open technologies. Each one of such technologies
specializes in a certain area of web application building, such as XML,
HTML creation, database access, logging, Java development process
support, etc. Project XYZ is a fusion of these technologies into a Java
server solution that covers all parts of the spectrum. Also it
introduces extensions (... need to be defined ...).
Other project goals are:
- to create a lower entry barrier for web application developers to use
state of the art technology by providing a single full solution "that works"
- to realize our vision of the best design and development practices
- ....
Project goals are NOT:
- to set the only acceptable way of doing things in Java
- to reduce the importance of technologies that are not in the core of
XYZ project
---------------------------------------------------
Here is a comparison to show why such a project is needed and why this
is a good thing. Take Linux example. How many people in the world could
take kernel code and GNU compiler and make a system that even boots?
With the emergence of companies like RedHat, people received this
missing piece - packaging. It was at least as important as kernel code
itself. And RedHat is not the only way to package Linux, so nobody
really thinks that RedHat "stole Linux".
I think here we have a similar situation - full platform solution will
make life easier for many people, while no harm will be done to the
foundation projects and their alternatives.
--
~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
- Andrei (a.k.a. Andrus) Adamchik
http://objectstyle.org
list email: andrus-jk at objectstyle dot org
personal email: andrus at objectstyle dot org
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Re: The Complete Server Platform?
Posted by Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org>.
Leo Simons wrote:
> 2) a statement of intent in important places on the website.
> I'm guessing that putting "we would like to see tomcat
> integrate with avalon" on the projects' respective websites
> would mean that such will happen sooner.
My concern would be that this promotes a "We are Borg" attitude.
Why would "we" like to see Avalon integrate with Tomcat? Why not Jetty
or Resin?
If our committers are choosing to use Tomcat because it meets their
real-life needs, then why would "we" have to tell them that. Won't they
just do it because they need it?
IMHO, committers should decide what is best for their product first. If
we all do that, and we all create best-of-breed products, then
interoperability will be a natural occurance.
If it is not a natural occurance, then we are mixing politics with
technology ... We would simply be replacing the Dark Lords with a Dark
Lady.
AFAIK, we don't tell Jakarta committers to use Ant. They choose Ant
because it is a great tool. The same should go for every Jakarta or ASF
product.
Meanwhile, I do think documenting how J2SE (Standard Edition)
technologies can provide an end-to-end solution is a great idea. For
example, jGuru is running on Resin, Lucene, James, and JSPs. Scales
great, and not an EJB to be found.
So, should we (meaning I) write that up as a case study and post it on
the site? Or, pass because they are not using Tomcat?
AFAIK, Apache is part of the JS2E group, rather than the J2EE group, so
it seems to me that promoting J2SE solutions is a natural thing for us
to do, regardless of who provides the underlying product.
-- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY US
-- Developing Java Web Applications with Struts
-- Tel: +1 585 737-3463
-- Web: http://husted.com/struts
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Re: The Complete Server Platform?
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
What I think would be cool is if someone (other than me because I'm
swamped at the moment) -- created an "Enterprise Distribution" along the
lines of the vision you outline below (see: www.sourceforge.net or
www.tigris.org).
-Andy
On Sat, 2002-02-23 at 06:33, Leo Simons wrote:
> There has been a lot of talk about what is wrong with the
> current main enterprise server platforms, whether it's
> about J2EE, .Net or Oracle.
>
> Many of the Jakarta projects provide a (IMHO) superior
> alternative to parts of those platforms. Yet Jakarta as a
> whole does not provide an alternative to the entire
> platform.
>
> I think it would be good if it did.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> Why An Integrated Solution Would Be Nice
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> ...should be rather obvious. The advantages are exactly what
> makes many companies get a "complete solution" rather than a
> loose set of components tied together.
> Imagine:
> "Welcome to the Jakarta software platform. _click here_ to
> download the Jakarta Server Development Kit. It includes all
> documentation you need; the documenation is also _available
> online_.
> Extensions to the base framework include content management
> tools, template engines, and implementations of many
> important java standards like Servlets and JMX. Browse the
> _Jakarta Server Component Library_ to find the applications
> you need."
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> Why It Doesn't Happen
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> ...is also pretty straightforward. Individual developers
> work on the various Jakarta projects because they have an
> immediate, specific need for the project they're working
> on. So that's what they do.
> There isn't enough people around devoting energy to
> inter-project communication to get an integration project
> underway.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> What To Do
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> Besides paying Sam Ruby to become a fulltime communications
> manager, there's a few things I think would help
> integration.
>
> 1) as proposed before, a separate (from general) mailinglist
> dedicated to general discussion. Sharing thoughts should
> develop into sharing code every so often.
>
> 2) a statement of intent in important places on the website.
> I'm guessing that putting "we would like to see tomcat
> integrate with avalon" on the projects' respective websites
> would mean that such will happen sooner.
>
> 3) creation of implementations of Java APIs that increase
> interoperability between applications (JMX, JNDI, JMS).
> Having a JMX implementation within the Apache fold would
> definately ease the tying together of projects.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> Why This Rant
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> I'm trying to state the obvious here. If anything, I'm
> curious if anyone has figured out yet where jakarta wants
> the balance between total-control-of-direction-from-above
> and total-chaos-where-the-only-authority-is-cvs to be.
>
> best regards,
>
> - Leo Simons
> (Avalon project)
>
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>
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www.sourceforge.net/projects/poi - port of Excel format to java
http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html
- fix java generics!
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Re: The Complete Server Platform?
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
On Sat, 2002-02-23 at 11:01, Andrus Adamchik wrote:
> It is interesting that I made a similar proposal (or rather described
> the same idea) just yesterday on an unrelated mailing list, with the
> normal excuse of being too busy right now to start working in this
> direction ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/webobjects/message/45867 ). I
> guess the idea is just flying in the air :-)
I've been saying it for awhile. I'm too busy with POI, Cocoon and
Lucene. (Having to learn Avalon)
I'll get to it eventually I'm sure if noone else does... Of course we
may all be C# programmers by then haha...
>
>
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > Why It Doesn't Happen
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > ...is also pretty straightforward. Individual developers
> > work on the various Jakarta projects because they have an
> > immediate, specific need for the project they're working
> > on. So that's what they do.
> > There isn't enough people around devoting energy to
> > inter-project communication to get an integration project
> > underway
> true, even though I am not a Jakarta committer, I am in a similar
> situation with my own project.
>
I don't think you need to be.
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > What To Do
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > 1) as proposed before, a separate (from general) mailinglist
> > dedicated to general discussion. Sharing thoughts should
> > develop into sharing code every so often.
>
> agreed.
>
Thats all I need....one more mail list... *phew*
> > 2) a statement of intent in important places on the website.
> > I'm guessing that putting "we would like to see tomcat
> > integrate with avalon" on the projects' respective websites
> > would mean that such will happen sooner.
>
>
> Maybe this doesn't even have to be supported by individual Jakarta
> projects. Rather there can be a separate project with its own
> participants. Setting up a mailing list would help to keep design going.
> And after (if) a viable design/vision results from it, a project can be
> setup in CVS to start this big scale jakarta integration and writing any
> missing extensions.
>
Thats what I think! I think it should start on sourceforge or some
similar place with its own mail lists, cvs, etc.
I think it should have *sub* distributions as well more specialized to
different areas of the *enterprise*... etc etc.
> --
> ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
> - Andrei (a.k.a. Andrus) Adamchik
> http://objectstyle.org
> list email: andrus-jk at objectstyle dot org
> personal email: andrus at objectstyle dot org
>
>
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
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>
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www.sourceforge.net/projects/poi - port of Excel format to java
http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html
- fix java generics!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
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Re: The Complete Server Platform?
Posted by Andrus Adamchik <an...@objectstyle.org>.
It is interesting that I made a similar proposal (or rather described
the same idea) just yesterday on an unrelated mailing list, with the
normal excuse of being too busy right now to start working in this
direction ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/webobjects/message/45867 ). I
guess the idea is just flying in the air :-)
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> Why It Doesn't Happen
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> ...is also pretty straightforward. Individual developers
> work on the various Jakarta projects because they have an
> immediate, specific need for the project they're working
> on. So that's what they do.
> There isn't enough people around devoting energy to
> inter-project communication to get an integration project
> underway
true, even though I am not a Jakarta committer, I am in a similar
situation with my own project.
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> What To Do
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> 1) as proposed before, a separate (from general) mailinglist
> dedicated to general discussion. Sharing thoughts should
> develop into sharing code every so often.
agreed.
> 2) a statement of intent in important places on the website.
> I'm guessing that putting "we would like to see tomcat
> integrate with avalon" on the projects' respective websites
> would mean that such will happen sooner.
Maybe this doesn't even have to be supported by individual Jakarta
projects. Rather there can be a separate project with its own
participants. Setting up a mailing list would help to keep design going.
And after (if) a viable design/vision results from it, a project can be
setup in CVS to start this big scale jakarta integration and writing any
missing extensions.
--
~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
- Andrei (a.k.a. Andrus) Adamchik
http://objectstyle.org
list email: andrus-jk at objectstyle dot org
personal email: andrus at objectstyle dot org
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Re: The Complete Server Platform?
Posted by Pete Chown <Pe...@skygate.co.uk>.
Daniel Rall wrote:
> Also, would you point me to a
> reference on how memory management is handled?
It uses the Boehm collector. For full details see here:
http://www.hpl.hp.com/personal/Hans_Boehm/gc/
It is a conservative collector that can also implement garbage
collection for C and C++, though gcc doesn't yet take advantage of this.
It's a fairly decent collector, I think, that implements most of the
obvious optimisations such as generations, exploitation of the MMU, etc.
Its conservative nature is both an upside and a downside. On the
downside, a small amount of storage may not get reclaimed -- though
unlike leaky C programs, this amount tends not to increase with time.
On the upside, there is less overhead because the collector doesn't have
to distinguish between pointers and other types.
--
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Re: The Complete Server Platform?
Posted by Daniel Rall <dl...@finemaltcoding.com>.
Jon Scott Stevens <jo...@latchkey.com> writes:
> on 3/19/02 8:36 AM, "Daniel Rall" <dl...@finemaltcoding.com> wrote:
>
>> Pete Chown <Pe...@skygate.co.uk> writes:
>>
>>> Daniel Rall wrote:
>>>
>>>> Does the bytecode interpreter [from gcj] handle class loading yet?
>>>
>>> Yes. You can invoke the bytecode interpreter directly with gij if you
>>> don't want to compile. Gij will handle Class.forName and friends
>>> correctly.
>>>
>>> If you compile to native code, the resulting executable will first of
>>> all search shared libraries for the class you ask for. If it doesn't
>>> find it, it will search for a bytecode file that it can interpret. In
>>> other words you can freely mix interpreted and compiled code.
>>
>> Thanks Pete, very informative.
>>
>> - Dan
>
> One other question:
>
> Is there a valuable performance enhancement to compiling to native
> code with gcj?
Yes, what kind of performance boost to get from this. For short-lived
apps, I could see it making a very big difference. However, what
about for long-running server apps? Also, would you point me to a
reference on how memory management is handled?
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Re: The Complete Server Platform?
Posted by co...@covalent.net.
On Tue, 19 Mar 2002, Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
> One other question:
>
> Is there a valuable performance enhancement to compiling to native code with
> gcj?
Right now - no, I couldn't notice any significant difference while running
tomcat. It is as fast as IBM JIT ( and faster than hotspot ).
However it start much faster, and get to the peak performance
sooner ( since all optimizations are already done ).
Another nice thing is that all the java code is actually compiled
to .so - and fully interoperable with C++ ( for C you need to
deal with the mangling ). That's very similar with C# and .net
languages, and it's not bad at all.
GCJ can be a very good answer to .NET, with a bit of work
it may allow the same language independence ( GCC already
does a lot in this direction ).
Costin
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Re: The Complete Server Platform?
Posted by Jon Scott Stevens <jo...@latchkey.com>.
on 3/19/02 8:36 AM, "Daniel Rall" <dl...@finemaltcoding.com> wrote:
> Pete Chown <Pe...@skygate.co.uk> writes:
>
>> Daniel Rall wrote:
>>
>>> Does the bytecode interpreter [from gcj] handle class loading yet?
>>
>> Yes. You can invoke the bytecode interpreter directly with gij if you
>> don't want to compile. Gij will handle Class.forName and friends
>> correctly.
>>
>> If you compile to native code, the resulting executable will first of
>> all search shared libraries for the class you ask for. If it doesn't
>> find it, it will search for a bytecode file that it can interpret. In
>> other words you can freely mix interpreted and compiled code.
>
> Thanks Pete, very informative.
>
> - Dan
One other question:
Is there a valuable performance enhancement to compiling to native code with
gcj?
-jon
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Re: The Complete Server Platform?
Posted by Daniel Rall <dl...@finemaltcoding.com>.
Pete Chown <Pe...@skygate.co.uk> writes:
> Daniel Rall wrote:
>
>> Does the bytecode interpreter [from gcj] handle class loading yet?
>
> Yes. You can invoke the bytecode interpreter directly with gij if you
> don't want to compile. Gij will handle Class.forName and friends
> correctly.
>
> If you compile to native code, the resulting executable will first of
> all search shared libraries for the class you ask for. If it doesn't
> find it, it will search for a bytecode file that it can interpret. In
> other words you can freely mix interpreted and compiled code.
Thanks Pete, very informative.
- Dan
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Re: The Complete Server Platform?
Posted by Pete Chown <Pe...@skygate.co.uk>.
Jason van Zyl wrote:
> I assume that ant is not made to take advantage of a multi-processor
> box, (I compiled some code on a quad processor machine and ant didn't
> really seem to move that much faster then on my laptop) but if I compile
> ant using gjc would it take advantage of a multi-processor machine?
It would be no different. Sun's JRE and gcj can both take advantage of
multiprocessor machines when threading is in use. If threading isn't in
use you will only utilise one processor.
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Re: The Complete Server Platform?
Posted by Jason van Zyl <jv...@zenplex.com>.
On Fri, 2002-03-22 at 02:59, Stefan Bodewig wrote:
> On 21 Mar 2002, Jason van Zyl <jv...@zenplex.com> wrote:
>
> > I assume that ant is not made to take advantage of a multi-processor
> > box,
>
> Ant isn't doing too many things that could take advantage of multiple
> processors - it doesn't compile itself but uses your JDK's javac (you
> know that 8-) which won't take advantage of multiple processors for
> example.
>
> If there are things in your build process that can be done in
> parallel, you can use Ant's <parallel> task (Ant >= 1.4) and run them
> in parallel. This should take advantage of multiple processors if
> your JVM uses native threads.
>
> If you put <javac> inside <parallel>, make sure you fork new processes
> though as Sun's javac code doesn't seem to be thread-safe.
Are there any solutions that would make a 4-way machine appear as a
machine with a single processor so that single threaded code can take
advantage of those extra processors transparently? I have a 4-way box
here that is sitting idle here @ zenplex and I may have access to 2
8-way machines but if running ant isn't going to be able to take
advantage of these machines (in some form, don't mind doing some work)
then I might as well run builds on my build box at home.
> Stefan
>
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Re: The Complete Server Platform?
Posted by di...@covalent.net.
On Fri, 22 Mar 2002, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> On 3/22/02 2:59 AM, "Stefan Bodewig" <bo...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > On 21 Mar 2002, Jason van Zyl <jv...@zenplex.com> wrote:
> >
> >> I assume that ant is not made to take advantage of a multi-processor
> >> box,
> >
> > Ant isn't doing too many things that could take advantage of multiple
> > processors - it doesn't compile itself but uses your JDK's javac (you
> > know that 8-) which won't take advantage of multiple processors for
> > example.
> >
> > If there are things in your build process that can be done in
> > parallel, you can use Ant's <parallel> task (Ant >= 1.4) and run them
> > in parallel. This should take advantage of multiple processors if
> > your JVM uses native threads.
> >
> > If you put <javac> inside <parallel>, make sure you fork new processes
> > though as Sun's javac code doesn't seem to be thread-safe.
>
> Woo hoo! This is exactly what I was going to do to ant - I have a dual proc
> mac, and wanted my builds to go even faster...
Cannot ant (like normal decent pmake/bsdmake) figure out from the
dependencies what can be done in parallel. I am not asking for the
awsomeness of 'make -j 8 world' of *BSD - butsomething close should be
possible I take it - could be a nice graduade student project :-)
DW
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Re: The Complete Server Platform?
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@optonline.net>.
On 3/22/02 2:59 AM, "Stefan Bodewig" <bo...@apache.org> wrote:
> On 21 Mar 2002, Jason van Zyl <jv...@zenplex.com> wrote:
>
>> I assume that ant is not made to take advantage of a multi-processor
>> box,
>
> Ant isn't doing too many things that could take advantage of multiple
> processors - it doesn't compile itself but uses your JDK's javac (you
> know that 8-) which won't take advantage of multiple processors for
> example.
>
> If there are things in your build process that can be done in
> parallel, you can use Ant's <parallel> task (Ant >= 1.4) and run them
> in parallel. This should take advantage of multiple processors if
> your JVM uses native threads.
>
> If you put <javac> inside <parallel>, make sure you fork new processes
> though as Sun's javac code doesn't seem to be thread-safe.
>
Woo hoo! This is exactly what I was going to do to ant - I have a dual proc
mac, and wanted my builds to go even faster...
--
Geir Magnusson Jr. geirm@optonline.net
System and Software Consulting
You're going to end up getting pissed at your software
anyway, so you might as well not pay for it. Try Open Source.
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Re: The Complete Server Platform?
Posted by Stefan Bodewig <bo...@apache.org>.
On 21 Mar 2002, Jason van Zyl <jv...@zenplex.com> wrote:
> I assume that ant is not made to take advantage of a multi-processor
> box,
Ant isn't doing too many things that could take advantage of multiple
processors - it doesn't compile itself but uses your JDK's javac (you
know that 8-) which won't take advantage of multiple processors for
example.
If there are things in your build process that can be done in
parallel, you can use Ant's <parallel> task (Ant >= 1.4) and run them
in parallel. This should take advantage of multiple processors if
your JVM uses native threads.
If you put <javac> inside <parallel>, make sure you fork new processes
though as Sun's javac code doesn't seem to be thread-safe.
Stefan
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Re: The Complete Server Platform?
Posted by co...@covalent.net.
On 21 Mar 2002, Jason van Zyl wrote:
> > ( the startup time is just amazing, you'll not realize you
> > run 'ant' instead of 'ls' )
>
> I assume that ant is not made to take advantage of a multi-processor
> box, (I compiled some code on a quad processor machine and ant didn't
> really seem to move that much faster then on my laptop) but if I compile
> ant using gjc would it take advantage of a multi-processor machine?
No - ant doesn't have too much overhead itself, it's what it executes.
Compiling ant to native reduced the startup time to almost
zero - that's the time it takes to load the huge VM, hundreds of classes,
JIT-compile them. About 3-4 seconds per invocation. All this goes
away ( except the first time you run them ). Plus a lot of stuff that
is not used or is used only once will remain on disk and not take up
RAM ( thanks to the OS paging of executables ).
If you use ant with javac - again you may be able
to cut all the loading/jit-ing of javac - but I wasn't able to
compile javac to native ( I haven't tried actually - I used jikes ).
It's kind of similar with jikes vs. javac.
Regarding multiprocessor - ant is singlethreaded, but if you
fork the compilers it'll take advantage of the other processors.
( jikes or any native compiler will most likely be scheduled to
a different process )
Costin
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Re: The Complete Server Platform?
Posted by Daniel Rall <dl...@finemaltcoding.com>.
Jason van Zyl <jv...@zenplex.com> writes:
> On Thu, 2002-03-21 at 15:48, Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
> > on 3/21/02 8:41 AM, "Jason van Zyl" <jv...@zenplex.com> wrote:
>>
>> > I assume that ant is not made to take advantage of a multi-processor
>> > box, (I compiled some code on a quad processor machine and ant didn't
>> > really seem to move that much faster then on my laptop) but if I compile
>> > ant using gjc would it take advantage of a multi-processor machine?
>>
>> How would what is currently a shell script that sets some variables and
>> executes a JVM be made to take advantage of a multi-processor box?
>
> I assumed Costin compiled the java goods.
>
>> Just because you have multiple processors, it doesn't mean that the load for
>> one single process is going to be distributed across them.
>>
>> It would take Ant to do all sorts of parallel threading to even get close to
>> making that happen and since Ant is really a single threaded application, I
>> doubt you will ever see a speed up (native code or JVM code).
>
> I was looking for some magic :-)
make -j3
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Re: The Complete Server Platform?
Posted by Jason van Zyl <jv...@zenplex.com>.
On Thu, 2002-03-21 at 15:48, Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
> on 3/21/02 8:41 AM, "Jason van Zyl" <jv...@zenplex.com> wrote:
>
> > I assume that ant is not made to take advantage of a multi-processor
> > box, (I compiled some code on a quad processor machine and ant didn't
> > really seem to move that much faster then on my laptop) but if I compile
> > ant using gjc would it take advantage of a multi-processor machine?
>
> How would what is currently a shell script that sets some variables and
> executes a JVM be made to take advantage of a multi-processor box?
I assumed Costin compiled the java goods.
> Just because you have multiple processors, it doesn't mean that the load for
> one single process is going to be distributed across them.
>
> It would take Ant to do all sorts of parallel threading to even get close to
> making that happen and since Ant is really a single threaded application, I
> doubt you will ever see a speed up (native code or JVM code).
I was looking for some magic :-)
> -jon
>
>
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Re: The Complete Server Platform?
Posted by Jon Scott Stevens <jo...@latchkey.com>.
on 3/21/02 8:41 AM, "Jason van Zyl" <jv...@zenplex.com> wrote:
> I assume that ant is not made to take advantage of a multi-processor
> box, (I compiled some code on a quad processor machine and ant didn't
> really seem to move that much faster then on my laptop) but if I compile
> ant using gjc would it take advantage of a multi-processor machine?
How would what is currently a shell script that sets some variables and
executes a JVM be made to take advantage of a multi-processor box?
Just because you have multiple processors, it doesn't mean that the load for
one single process is going to be distributed across them.
It would take Ant to do all sorts of parallel threading to even get close to
making that happen and since Ant is really a single threaded application, I
doubt you will ever see a speed up (native code or JVM code).
-jon
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Re: The Complete Server Platform?
Posted by Jason van Zyl <jv...@zenplex.com>.
On Tue, 2002-03-19 at 10:43, costinm@covalent.net wrote:
>
> ( the startup time is just amazing, you'll not realize you
> run 'ant' instead of 'ls' )
I assume that ant is not made to take advantage of a multi-processor
box, (I compiled some code on a quad processor machine and ant didn't
really seem to move that much faster then on my laptop) but if I compile
ant using gjc would it take advantage of a multi-processor machine?
> Costin
>
>
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Re: The Complete Server Platform?
Posted by Pete Chown <Pe...@skygate.co.uk>.
costinm@covalent.net wrote:
> It [gcj] had some minor issues ( required few changes, inner classes are
> tricky even for jikes ), and few bugs in class loading - but I was
> able to get everything working.
Yes, it can be annoying to get things working. I think it's partly
incomplete implementation of features in gcj, and partly that Java
projects are written primarily for conventional JREs.
> The good/bad news - it's was as fast as IBM JDK1.3 on linux
> ( which is the fastest - on my setup ). Beeing as fast as
> the fastest is usually good news, but I was hoping a bit more :-)
Rumour has it that gcc 3.1 will be substantially better. I am not
involved enough to know how true this is, but I think a lot of Java
specific optimisations didn't get done until after the 3.0.x branch.
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Re: The Complete Server Platform?
Posted by co...@covalent.net.
On 19 Mar 2002, Pete Chown wrote:
> Daniel Rall wrote:
>
> > Does the bytecode interpreter [from gcj] handle class loading yet?
>
> Yes. You can invoke the bytecode interpreter directly with gij if you
> don't want to compile. Gij will handle Class.forName and friends
> correctly.
I actually tested GCJ ( in 'native mode' ) with ant, tomcat(3), crimson
( required by both ).
It had some minor issues ( required few changes, inner classes are
tricky even for jikes ), and few bugs in class loading - but I was
able to get everything working.
The good/bad news - it's was as fast as IBM JDK1.3 on linux
( which is the fastest - on my setup ). Beeing as fast as
the fastest is usually good news, but I was hoping a bit more :-)
( the startup time is just amazing, you'll not realize you
run 'ant' instead of 'ls' )
Costin
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Re: The Complete Server Platform?
Posted by Pete Chown <Pe...@skygate.co.uk>.
Daniel Rall wrote:
> Does the bytecode interpreter [from gcj] handle class loading yet?
Yes. You can invoke the bytecode interpreter directly with gij if you
don't want to compile. Gij will handle Class.forName and friends
correctly.
If you compile to native code, the resulting executable will first of
all search shared libraries for the class you ask for. If it doesn't
find it, it will search for a bytecode file that it can interpret. In
other words you can freely mix interpreted and compiled code.
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Re: The Complete Server Platform?
Posted by Daniel Rall <dl...@finemaltcoding.com>.
Pete Chown <Pe...@skygate.co.uk> writes:
> The other thing I would like to push is gcj. It doesn't seem to be very
> well known. For people who haven't come across it, it is part of gcc
> and it is an ahead-of-time compiler for Java. It also includes a
> bytecode interpreter so it can deal with dynamically generated code, and
> a free implementation of the Java class libraries.
Does the bytecode interpreter handle class loading yet?
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Re: The Complete Server Platform?
Posted by cm...@yahoo.com.
On 23 Feb 2002, Pete Chown wrote:
> The other thing I would like to push is gcj. It doesn't seem to be very
> well known. For people who haven't come across it, it is part of gcc
> and it is an ahead-of-time compiler for Java. It also includes a
> bytecode interpreter so it can deal with dynamically generated code, and
> a free implementation of the Java class libraries.
And many jakarta projects compile and work fine ( and fast ) using
gcj. I've got similar results with IBM's JDK1.3 for linux, which
is one of the fastest ( when testing tomcat ), except the startup
time which is much better.
In addition there is an ant task to compile java to native using gcj
( it's part of j-t-c build process, the jkant package ).
Costin
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Re: The Complete Server Platform?
Posted by Pete Chown <Pe...@skygate.co.uk>.
I was thinking about another way of pushing Jakarta, partly in the
context of the issue with Sun. If there was an open process for
standard setting, it could make Sun's closed process less important.
The IETF does well at being open, but I don't think they would get
involved in something like this. Things like the RFC Editor function
are already overstretched just doing network standardisation. However,
something along similar organisational lines could work.
The other thing I would like to push is gcj. It doesn't seem to be very
well known. For people who haven't come across it, it is part of gcc
and it is an ahead-of-time compiler for Java. It also includes a
bytecode interpreter so it can deal with dynamically generated code, and
a free implementation of the Java class libraries.
To some extent a project like this is always trying to keep up with Sun,
but it isn't doing badly. There is already some code (in CVS) to bring
it into compliance with some aspects of JDK 1.4, for example. It will
also compile many of the Jakarta products. There is a list of some
current ports at:
http://sources.redhat.com/rhug/
A community-based standards process, together with gcj would provide
independence from Sun. It is tempting at the moment to embrace .NET,
but that would just tempt Microsoft to pull the same tricks in a few
years' time. Microsoft is not in this out of altruism any more than Sun
is.
The other point is that Sun will only change if they are given a reason
to. They are a profit-making company and so of course they will act in
their own interests; that is how business works. The Java Apache
projects have been one of the major reasons for Java's acceptance.
Apache distancing itself from Sun would be a major reason for them to be
more accommodating. (Admittedly Apache doing things with .NET would be
an incentive for Sun too, but my first point still holds.)
Right now, Java has a major threat from .NET, and Sun really shouldn't
be fighting with its allies...
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