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Posted to dev@community.apache.org by Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com> on 2015/09/25 08:57:20 UTC
Overlapping role descriptions
Hi All,
At http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#roles we have
descriptions for the user and the developer roles. But the descriptions are
overlapping.
For *user* we have:
A *user* is someone that uses our software. They contribute to the Apache
projects by providing feedback to developers in the form of bug reports and
feature suggestions. Users participate in the Apache community by helping
other users on mailing lists and user support forums.
And for *developer* we have:
A *developer* is a user who contributes to a project in the form of code or
documentation. They take extra steps to participate in a project, are
active on the developer mailing list, participate in discussions, provide
patches, documentation, suggestions, and criticism. Developers are also
known as *contributors* .
Better would be to change the *user* definition to:
A user is a person or organisation experiencing a benefit from
the contributions made to the ASF in general or a project in particular.
And the *developer* definition should be removed and replaced with a
*contributor* definition:
A contributor is a person who contributes to a project of the ASF and
therefore to the ASF. Contributions are (but not limited to) participations
in mailing lists, conferences, providing improvements to code,
documentation, supplying suggestions and criticism to further the project
in particular and the ASF in general.
Recognised contributors are contributors who have also a signed Contributor
License Agreement (CLA) <http://www.apache.org/licenses/#clas> on file.
Both new descriptions remove the ambiguity regarding using and contributing
from the old descriptions, and the new one for contributor feeds into the
diversity aspect.
What do you think?
Best regards,
Pierre Smits
*OFBiz Extensions Marketplace*
http://oem.ofbizci.net
Re: Overlapping role descriptions
Posted by Branko Čibej <br...@apache.org>.
On 26.09.2015 16:16, Pierre Smits wrote:
> Branko,
>
> I am not talking about walls, only about removing confusion from
> definitions.
The question that I keep repeating that you haven't answered is: whose
confusion? Can you show that people are actually confused by our current
definitions? Are *you* confused by them?
> A contributor can be user, as much as he/she can choose not to
> be a user. Similarly, a developer of project A contributing (in whatever
> form) to project B can be someone who doesn't use (benefits from) the works
> of project B.
>
> I never mentioned that a user can't be a contributor. Maybe you should read
> my suggestions again.
> The distinctions I made were:
>
> - user = person or organisation benefiting from the works of the project
> ....
> - contributor = person contributing ...
>
> Best regards,
>
> Pierre Smits
>
> *OFBiz Extensions Marketplace*
> http://oem.ofbizci.net
>
> On Sat, Sep 26, 2015 at 3:35 PM, Branko Čibej <br...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>> On 26.09.2015 14:45, Pierre Smits wrote:
>>> It is all about removing potential confusion and sending clear messages.
>>>
>>> *re: user*
>>> A user benefits from the contributions. He/she or them (the organisation)
>>> can happily do so without ever interacting with a projects community.
>> They
>>> may even be a subscriber to any or all mailing lists of the ASF without
>>> ever posting anything to a mailing list. They may also enhance the works
>> of
>>> a project without sharing it with the project. Hence the part about users
>>> contributing should removed from the definition.
>> You've not said *why* you think that users can't be contributors. That's
>> totally at odds with the inclusive communities we're trying to build
>> here. A developer can also be a user, a user can also be a contributor.
>> The roles *do* overlap and that's what the current definitions describe.
>> Which of course does not meant that they *have* to overlap in any
>> particular case.
>>
>> It ain't broken so don't try to fix it. You're the first person I've
>> ever heard of who thinks there should be a wall between users and
>> developers.
>>
>> -- Brane
>>
>>
Re: Overlapping role descriptions
Posted by Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com>.
Branko,
I am not talking about walls, only about removing confusion from
definitions. A contributor can be user, as much as he/she can choose not to
be a user. Similarly, a developer of project A contributing (in whatever
form) to project B can be someone who doesn't use (benefits from) the works
of project B.
I never mentioned that a user can't be a contributor. Maybe you should read
my suggestions again.
The distinctions I made were:
- user = person or organisation benefiting from the works of the project
....
- contributor = person contributing ...
Best regards,
Pierre Smits
*OFBiz Extensions Marketplace*
http://oem.ofbizci.net
On Sat, Sep 26, 2015 at 3:35 PM, Branko Čibej <br...@apache.org> wrote:
> On 26.09.2015 14:45, Pierre Smits wrote:
> > It is all about removing potential confusion and sending clear messages.
> >
> > *re: user*
> > A user benefits from the contributions. He/she or them (the organisation)
> > can happily do so without ever interacting with a projects community.
> They
> > may even be a subscriber to any or all mailing lists of the ASF without
> > ever posting anything to a mailing list. They may also enhance the works
> of
> > a project without sharing it with the project. Hence the part about users
> > contributing should removed from the definition.
>
> You've not said *why* you think that users can't be contributors. That's
> totally at odds with the inclusive communities we're trying to build
> here. A developer can also be a user, a user can also be a contributor.
> The roles *do* overlap and that's what the current definitions describe.
> Which of course does not meant that they *have* to overlap in any
> particular case.
>
> It ain't broken so don't try to fix it. You're the first person I've
> ever heard of who thinks there should be a wall between users and
> developers.
>
> -- Brane
>
>
Re: Overlapping role descriptions
Posted by Branko Čibej <br...@apache.org>.
On 26.09.2015 14:45, Pierre Smits wrote:
> It is all about removing potential confusion and sending clear messages.
>
> *re: user*
> A user benefits from the contributions. He/she or them (the organisation)
> can happily do so without ever interacting with a projects community. They
> may even be a subscriber to any or all mailing lists of the ASF without
> ever posting anything to a mailing list. They may also enhance the works of
> a project without sharing it with the project. Hence the part about users
> contributing should removed from the definition.
You've not said *why* you think that users can't be contributors. That's
totally at odds with the inclusive communities we're trying to build
here. A developer can also be a user, a user can also be a contributor.
The roles *do* overlap and that's what the current definitions describe.
Which of course does not meant that they *have* to overlap in any
particular case.
It ain't broken so don't try to fix it. You're the first person I've
ever heard of who thinks there should be a wall between users and
developers.
-- Brane
Re: Overlapping role descriptions
Posted by Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com>.
It is all about removing potential confusion and sending clear messages.
*re: user*
A user benefits from the contributions. He/she or them (the organisation)
can happily do so without ever interacting with a projects community. They
may even be a subscriber to any or all mailing lists of the ASF without
ever posting anything to a mailing list. They may also enhance the works of
a project without sharing it with the project. Hence the part about users
contributing should removed from the definition.
*re: developer*
The main part of the description ( ... who contributes to a project in the
form of code or documentation) reads as contributors to the works of the
project. As such a developer defines a subset of the contributors
definition. In the existing description any person involved in furthering
the project in other ways (e.g. promotions, community development) is
negated.
Best regards,
Pierre Smits
*OFBiz Extensions Marketplace*
http://oem.ofbizci.net
Re: Overlapping role descriptions
Posted by Lefty Leverenz <le...@gmail.com>.
Pierre, although your new descriptions make sense I still prefer the
originals. Projects have separate mailing lists for developers and users,
so people need to understand the difference. And users can contribute too.
Perhaps a third description for "contributor" could clarify the overlap.
-- Lefty
On Fri, Sep 25, 2015 at 2:57 AM, Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> At http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#roles we have
> descriptions for the user and the developer roles. But the descriptions are
> overlapping.
>
> For *user* we have:
>
> A *user* is someone that uses our software. They contribute to the Apache
> projects by providing feedback to developers in the form of bug reports and
> feature suggestions. Users participate in the Apache community by helping
> other users on mailing lists and user support forums.
>
> And for *developer* we have:
>
>
> A *developer* is a user who contributes to a project in the form of code or
> documentation. They take extra steps to participate in a project, are
> active on the developer mailing list, participate in discussions, provide
> patches, documentation, suggestions, and criticism. Developers are also
> known as *contributors* .
>
>
> Better would be to change the *user* definition to:
>
> A user is a person or organisation experiencing a benefit from
> the contributions made to the ASF in general or a project in particular.
>
> And the *developer* definition should be removed and replaced with a
> *contributor* definition:
>
> A contributor is a person who contributes to a project of the ASF and
> therefore to the ASF. Contributions are (but not limited to) participations
> in mailing lists, conferences, providing improvements to code,
> documentation, supplying suggestions and criticism to further the project
> in particular and the ASF in general.
>
> Recognised contributors are contributors who have also a signed Contributor
> License Agreement (CLA) <http://www.apache.org/licenses/#clas> on file.
>
>
> Both new descriptions remove the ambiguity regarding using and contributing
> from the old descriptions, and the new one for contributor feeds into the
> diversity aspect.
>
> What do you think?
>
> Best regards,
>
>
> Pierre Smits
>
> *OFBiz Extensions Marketplace*
> http://oem.ofbizci.net
>
Re: Overlapping role descriptions
Posted by Branko Čibej <br...@apache.org>.
On 25.09.2015 08:57, Pierre Smits wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> At http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#roles we have
> descriptions for the user and the developer roles. But the descriptions are
> overlapping.
So what exactly is wrong with the fact that the roles overlap?
-- Brane
> For *user* we have:
>
> A *user* is someone that uses our software. They contribute to the Apache
> projects by providing feedback to developers in the form of bug reports and
> feature suggestions. Users participate in the Apache community by helping
> other users on mailing lists and user support forums.
>
> And for *developer* we have:
>
>
> A *developer* is a user who contributes to a project in the form of code or
> documentation. They take extra steps to participate in a project, are
> active on the developer mailing list, participate in discussions, provide
> patches, documentation, suggestions, and criticism. Developers are also
> known as *contributors* .
>
>
> Better would be to change the *user* definition to:
>
> A user is a person or organisation experiencing a benefit from
> the contributions made to the ASF in general or a project in particular.
>
> And the *developer* definition should be removed and replaced with a
> *contributor* definition:
>
> A contributor is a person who contributes to a project of the ASF and
> therefore to the ASF. Contributions are (but not limited to) participations
> in mailing lists, conferences, providing improvements to code,
> documentation, supplying suggestions and criticism to further the project
> in particular and the ASF in general.
>
> Recognised contributors are contributors who have also a signed Contributor
> License Agreement (CLA) <http://www.apache.org/licenses/#clas> on file.
>
>
> Both new descriptions remove the ambiguity regarding using and contributing
> from the old descriptions, and the new one for contributor feeds into the
> diversity aspect.
>
> What do you think?
>
> Best regards,
>
>
> Pierre Smits
>
> *OFBiz Extensions Marketplace*
> http://oem.ofbizci.net
>