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Posted to dev@ant.apache.org by Stefan Bodewig <bo...@apache.org> on 2002/02/04 16:14:48 UTC
[WARN] Removing the file attribute from and friends tomorrow
This is a heads up for people who have switched to <zip file="..."/>
but not the newer destfile attribute (Hi Pete ;-) - expect your builds
to fail in about twenty hours or so.
Or is there any reason to delay this step further?
Stefan
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Re: [WARN] Removing the file attribute from and friends tomorrow
Posted by Steve Loughran <st...@iseran.com>.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Donald" <pe...@apache.org>
To: "Ant Developers List" <an...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 9:58 PM
Subject: Re: [WARN] Removing the file attribute from <zip> and friends
tomorrow
> > > I prefer leaving them in with a deprecation message, though removing
all
> > > documentation of their very existence from the manual pages.
>
> +1
>
> Theres already a bunch of people who converted their buildfiles to use
"file"
> - whats the harm in having an undocumented deprecated attribute still
exist.
> It is only 3 lines of code ;)
I dunno, Stephane and Conor have convinced me it is a fundamental 'freedom
to fiddle with the betas' issue
How about we do something like implement a hard coded countdown in the
source; the deprecation lists a "5 days left" to use this attribute until it
turns itself off. That way even copies of the library in SCM wont work
either :)
otherwise, make the deprecation message bigger and bigger till we turn it
off by hand
-steve
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Re: [WARN] Removing the file attribute from and friends tomorrow
Posted by Peter Donald <pe...@apache.org>.
> > I prefer leaving them in with a deprecation message, though removing all
> > documentation of their very existence from the manual pages.
+1
Theres already a bunch of people who converted their buildfiles to use "file"
- whats the harm in having an undocumented deprecated attribute still exist.
It is only 3 lines of code ;)
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Cheers,
Pete
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Re: [WARN] Removing the file attribute from and friends tomorrow
Posted by Magesh Umasankar <um...@apache.org>.
From: "Steve Loughran" <st...@iseran.com>
> maybe so, but we also field many user bug
> requests with 'update to nightly build'
> messages, and then because of deprecation
> messages encourage the users to upgrade to
> attributes which we then take away. Is that
> a fair thing to do?
>
> The problem is that if we take it away,
> projects built with a version of 1.5alpha
> will break. it may be tomorrow, it may be
> in six months when the user pulls out a copy
> from CVS. The latter is worse as they may
> not know what on earth happened, especially
> if they were not the original build file
> author. It'll be support calls one way or the
> other.
>
> I prefer leaving them in with a deprecation
> message, though removing all documentation of
> their very existence from the manual pages.
My -1 to leave it in still stands ;-) Let us
not make a release with setFile in there and then
fight over when to deprecate it/remove it, etc.
Otherwise, do not deprecate it (even from the doc)
- let users have the choice of specifying the file
with the attribute name they prefer ;-)
Cheers,
Magesh
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Re: [WARN] Removing the file attribute from and friends tomorrow
Posted by Erik Hatcher <ja...@ehatchersolutions.com>.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Loughran" <st...@iseran.com>
> I prefer leaving them in with a deprecation message, though removing all
> documentation of their very existence from the manual pages.
+1 for deprecating and undocumenting.
> Likewise, I would like to clean up the manual to strip out <execon>
> <rename>,<deletefiles> , maybe even the whole global filter thing.
obsolete
> task names and dangerous ideas do need to be kept out of site. The source
is
> still there for people to look at.
Again +1 for cleaning up such cruft. Global filters are evil! References
are the way to go for such reuse.
Erik
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Re: [WARN] Removing the file attribute from and friends tomorrow
Posted by Steve Loughran <st...@iseran.com>.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Conor MacNeill" <co...@cortexebusiness.com.au>
To: "Ant Developers List" <an...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 15:04
Subject: RE: [WARN] Removing the file attribute from <zip> and friends
tomorrow
> > From: Stephane Bailliez [mailto:sbailliez@apache.org]
> >
> > Come on, Steve, there is something fundamentally wrong here.
>
> I agree. I don't think we want to get into the situation where we have to
> support backward compatability for nightly builds.
>
> Conor
ok, you have convinced me. Lets turn it off.
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RE: [WARN] Removing the file attribute from and friends tomorrow
Posted by Conor MacNeill <co...@cortexebusiness.com.au>.
> From: Stephane Bailliez [mailto:sbailliez@apache.org]
>
> Come on, Steve, there is something fundamentally wrong here.
I agree. I don't think we want to get into the situation where we have to
support backward compatability for nightly builds.
Conor
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Re: [WARN] Removing the file attribute from and friends tomorrow
Posted by Stephane Bailliez <sb...@apache.org>.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Loughran" <st...@iseran.com>
[...]
> maybe so, but we also field many user bug requests with 'update to nightly
> build' messages, and then because of deprecation messages encourage the
> users to upgrade to attributes which we then take away. Is that a fair
thing
> to do?
> The problem is that if we take it away, projects built with a version of
> 1.5alpha will break. it may be tomorrow, it may be in six months when the
> user pulls out a copy from CVS. The latter is worse as they may not know
> what on earth happened, especially if they were not the original build
file
> author. It'll be support calls one way or the other.
Come on, Steve, there is something fundamentally wrong here.
Alpha has never been intended for production use. If user use it they must
know exactly what they are doing, you cannot get experimental software and
ask for stability at the same time...
What should we do otherwise ? stop developpement ? create a branch for
maintenance and another one for experiments and refactoring ? keep all the
thing that we commited once in CVS, this is hard.
> I prefer leaving them in with a deprecation message, though removing all
> documentation of their very existence from the manual pages.
> Likewise, I would like to clean up the manual to strip out <execon>
> <rename>,<deletefiles> , maybe even the whole global filter thing.
obsolete
> task names and dangerous ideas do need to be kept out of site. The source
is
> still there for people to look at.
+1
Stephane
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Re: [WARN] Removing the file attribute from and friends tomorrow
Posted by Steve Loughran <st...@iseran.com>.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Magesh Umasankar" <um...@apache.org>
To: "Ant Developers List" <an...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 12:28
Subject: Re: [WARN] Removing the file attribute from <zip> and friends
tomorrow
> From: "Peter Donald" <pe...@apache.org>
>
> > On Tue, 5 Feb 2002 02:14, Stefan Bodewig wrote:
> > > This is a heads up for people who have switched to <zip file="..."/>
> > > but not the newer destfile attribute (Hi Pete ;-) - expect your builds
> > > to fail in about twenty hours or so.
> > >
> > > Or is there any reason to delay this step further?
> >
> > I would say delay it forever because quite a few people are using it
> despite
> > the fact that it is CVS only ;)
>
> -1 to delaying it forever. Sorry. We have to make up
> our minds on what is the name we want to provide to
> that attribute.
>
> The following is from Jakarta's Binary Downloads page:
>
> Nightly Builds are those that are very unstable (a.k.a. dynamite!). We
> have no confidence in them. They are for developers who are helping
> to develop the technology and want "the latest bits." Use at your own
> risk!
maybe so, but we also field many user bug requests with 'update to nightly
build' messages, and then because of deprecation messages encourage the
users to upgrade to attributes which we then take away. Is that a fair thing
to do?
The problem is that if we take it away, projects built with a version of
1.5alpha will break. it may be tomorrow, it may be in six months when the
user pulls out a copy from CVS. The latter is worse as they may not know
what on earth happened, especially if they were not the original build file
author. It'll be support calls one way or the other.
I prefer leaving them in with a deprecation message, though removing all
documentation of their very existence from the manual pages.
Likewise, I would like to clean up the manual to strip out <execon>
<rename>,<deletefiles> , maybe even the whole global filter thing. obsolete
task names and dangerous ideas do need to be kept out of site. The source is
still there for people to look at.
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Re: [WARN] Removing the file attribute from and friends tomorrow
Posted by Magesh Umasankar <um...@apache.org>.
From: "Peter Donald" <pe...@apache.org>
> On Tue, 5 Feb 2002 02:14, Stefan Bodewig wrote:
> > This is a heads up for people who have switched to <zip file="..."/>
> > but not the newer destfile attribute (Hi Pete ;-) - expect your builds
> > to fail in about twenty hours or so.
> >
> > Or is there any reason to delay this step further?
>
> I would say delay it forever because quite a few people are using it
despite
> the fact that it is CVS only ;)
-1 to delaying it forever. Sorry. We have to make up
our minds on what is the name we want to provide to
that attribute.
The following is from Jakarta's Binary Downloads page:
Nightly Builds are those that are very unstable (a.k.a. dynamite!). We
have no confidence in them. They are for developers who are helping
to develop the technology and want "the latest bits." Use at your own
risk!
On behalf of ant-dev, I am willing to apologize to those
users for whom any inconvenience has been caused,
but, please, let us not have multiple unreleased names for
the same attribute in there.
>
> Pete
>
Cheers,
Magesh
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Re: [WARN] Removing the file attribute from and friends tomorrow
Posted by Stefan Bodewig <bo...@apache.org>.
On Tue, 5 Feb 2002, Peter Donald <pe...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Tue, 5 Feb 2002 20:04, Stefan Bodewig wrote:
>> Why people would want to use one nightly build and adapt to it but
>> not want to adapt to yet another nightly build.
>
> the majority of people don't know they are using a nightly ?
So don't impose it on them - ahh, the benefits of putting jars into
CVS.
I'm in favor of not supporting this style of development (rely on
alpha code and don't track the development list of the product in
question).
> However the change has been too long in codebase to completely
> remove.
I can follow your reasoning to a certain degree, but I'm afraid this
would be going to set a precedent as it almost forces us to veto any
changes until we've voted on attribute names or something.
Stefan
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Re: [WARN] Removing the file attribute from and friends tomorrow
Posted by Peter Donald <pe...@apache.org>.
On Tue, 5 Feb 2002 20:04, Stefan Bodewig wrote:
> On Tue, 5 Feb 2002, Peter Donald <pe...@apache.org> wrote:
> > On Tue, 5 Feb 2002 19:12, Stefan Bodewig wrote:
> >> I don't really understand this, sorry.
> >
> > What you dont understand why people or using it or why we should
> > should support these people?
>
> Why people would want to use one nightly build and adapt to it but not
> want to adapt to yet another nightly build.
the majority of people don't know they are using a nightly ?
> > It is trivial to update the projects at Apache and some of the ones
> > at sourceforge. however it is not so easy to update others that are
> > not opensource or that we can't contact.
>
> Is it unreasonable to expect that people who use nightly builds of Ant
> instead of released versions follow ant-dev?
I would say yep ;)
> > what exactly is the problem with these 3 lines?
>
> That we are binding our own hands if we extend backwards compatibility
> to the level of nightly builds. <apply> would still be <transform> as
> well and <antcall> would be <calltarget>. <zipfileset> has been named
> <fileset> and <prefixedfileset> and ...
>
> It is not the problem of three lines, but a problem of how we want to
> develop Ant. If every change I make to Ant's code that adds an
> attribute or nested element or task means I cannot change the name or
> meaning of this thing while we are in alpha cycles, things will slow
> down considerably.
The problem is the length of time that it has been like that. The change was
made prior to 1.4 being released. If it had been a lesser time and fewer
people had already adapted to the change then I would have no problem with
it. However the change has been too long in codebase to completely remove.
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Cheers,
Pete
"The ability to quote is a serviceable substitute for wit." -- Maugham
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Re: [WARN] Removing the file attribute from and friends tomorrow
Posted by Stefan Bodewig <bo...@apache.org>.
On Tue, 5 Feb 2002, Peter Donald <pe...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Tue, 5 Feb 2002 19:12, Stefan Bodewig wrote:
>>
>> I don't really understand this, sorry.
>
> What you dont understand why people or using it or why we should
> should support these people?
Why people would want to use one nightly build and adapt to it but not
want to adapt to yet another nightly build.
> It is trivial to update the projects at Apache and some of the ones
> at sourceforge. however it is not so easy to update others that are
> not opensource or that we can't contact.
Is it unreasonable to expect that people who use nightly builds of Ant
instead of released versions follow ant-dev?
> what exactly is the problem with these 3 lines?
That we are binding our own hands if we extend backwards compatibility
to the level of nightly builds. <apply> would still be <transform> as
well and <antcall> would be <calltarget>. <zipfileset> has been named
<fileset> and <prefixedfileset> and ...
It is not the problem of three lines, but a problem of how we want to
develop Ant. If every change I make to Ant's code that adds an
attribute or nested element or task means I cannot change the name or
meaning of this thing while we are in alpha cycles, things will slow
down considerably.
Stefan
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Re: [WARN] Removing the file attribute from and friends tomorrow
Posted by Peter Donald <pe...@apache.org>.
On Tue, 5 Feb 2002 19:12, Stefan Bodewig wrote:
> On Tue, 5 Feb 2002, Peter Donald <pe...@apache.org> wrote:
> > I would say delay it forever because quite a few people are using it
> > despite the fact that it is CVS only ;)
>
> I don't really understand this, sorry.
What you dont understand why people or using it or why we should should
support these people?
> Which nightly build of Ant are you using there? How many bugs have
> been fixed since then? At the same time you update Ant for all these
> projects, you could add the four letters dest to the attribute name in
> the build files.
It is trivial to update the projects at Apache and some of the ones at
sourceforge. however it is not so easy to update others that are not
opensource or that we can't contact. The majority of Avalons users are not
opensource peeps though so ... what exactly is the problem with these 3
lines?
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Cheers,
Pete
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| "Common sense is the collection of prejudices |
| acquired by age 18. " -Albert Einstein |
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Re: [WARN] Removing the file attribute from and friends tomorrow
Posted by Stefan Bodewig <bo...@apache.org>.
On Tue, 5 Feb 2002, Peter Donald <pe...@apache.org> wrote:
> I would say delay it forever because quite a few people are using it
> despite the fact that it is CVS only ;)
I don't really understand this, sorry.
The build files for these projects don't work with any released
version of Ant as the file attribute hasn't been there before. People
who have adapted to this change are obviously willing to track Ant
development closer than most other people, they even require their
developers to run unstable versions of Ant.
Which nightly build of Ant are you using there? How many bugs have
been fixed since then? At the same time you update Ant for all these
projects, you could add the four letters dest to the attribute name in
the build files.
Stefan
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Re: [WARN] Removing the file attribute from and friends tomorrow
Posted by Peter Donald <pe...@apache.org>.
On Tue, 5 Feb 2002 02:14, Stefan Bodewig wrote:
> This is a heads up for people who have switched to <zip file="..."/>
> but not the newer destfile attribute (Hi Pete ;-) - expect your builds
> to fail in about twenty hours or so.
>
> Or is there any reason to delay this step further?
I would say delay it forever because quite a few people are using it despite
the fact that it is CVS only ;)
--
Cheers,
Pete
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RE: [WARN] Removing the file attribute from and friends tomorrow
Posted by Martin van den Bemt <mv...@mvdb.com>.
Missed a couple of threads probably ;)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stefan Bodewig [mailto:bodewig@apache.org]
> Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 16:22
> To: ant-dev@jakarta.apache.org
> Subject: Re: [WARN] Removing the file attribute from <zip> and friends
> tomorrow
>
>
> On Mon, 4 Feb 2002, Martin van den Bemt <mv...@mvdb.com> wrote:
> > I guess you checked on gump what builds depend on that ;)
>
> Yes, that was the "Hi Pete" part of my mail.
>
> Stefan
>
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>
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Re: [WARN] Removing the file attribute from and friends tomorrow
Posted by Stefan Bodewig <bo...@apache.org>.
On Mon, 4 Feb 2002, Martin van den Bemt <mv...@mvdb.com> wrote:
> I guess you checked on gump what builds depend on that ;)
Yes, that was the "Hi Pete" part of my mail.
Stefan
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RE: [WARN] Removing the file attribute from and friends tomorrow
Posted by Martin van den Bemt <mv...@mvdb.com>.
I guess you checked on gump what builds depend on that ;)
Mvgr,
Martin
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stefan Bodewig [mailto:bodewig@apache.org]
> Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 16:15
> To: ant-dev@jakarta.apache.org
> Subject: [WARN] Removing the file attribute from <zip> and friends
> tomorrow
>
>
> This is a heads up for people who have switched to <zip file="..."/>
> but not the newer destfile attribute (Hi Pete ;-) - expect your builds
> to fail in about twenty hours or so.
>
> Or is there any reason to delay this step further?
>
> Stefan
>
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>
>
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