Re: What is your experience on the time of development ?

[Curtis Cooley <cu...@venture.com.sg>]

Martin Sachs wrote:
>> <p>I'm looking for a little comparison of the development-time for
>> Applications in Wicket against other Technologies. </p>
>> <p>
>> I think the development with Wicket is two times faster than Struts. But
>> what are your experiences on JSF, Rails/Grails, SpringMVC/SpringWebFlow.
>> </p>
>> Anyone you know the development-time from experience ?
>> <br>
>>
>> (P.S.: The applications must use AJAX and many custom components or tags
>> in JSP, not just a hello world sample)
>>
>>     
I built a small database driven application in about 4 days using Grails
then my boss freaked about using a "4GL" and made me rewrite it in
Wicket. That took me about 3 weeks.

Now, I started at 0 with both frameworks and used
Wicket+Spring+Hibernate which I got Spring and Hibernate wiring for free
with Grails. My Spring and Hibernate experience was 0, so grails really
pulled through in that area. I also have experience with Ruby and Rails
which helped with the Grails work, but I'd also built a few (4-5) Wicket
pages for another app, so I think that about balances starting points.

My really rough guess is that I'd be 50 to 75 percent more effective in
Grails than Wicket now that I know what I learned during the three weeks
of Wicket work.

If I had my druthers, I'd build our app using Grails. I much prefer
Groovy/Ruby to Java, and I've been writing Java since 1.1!



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Re: What is your experience on the time of development ?

[Curtis Cooley <cu...@venture.com.sg>]

Nino Martinez wrote:
> Hi Curtis
>
> You cant really compare wicket against Grails, Wicket is not a full
> stack framework (Wicket is only a webframework).. And actually Grails
> can run with wicket too[1]... Or are you saying that dynamic languages
> are better than type safety?  Not that I want to start a religious war
> though, im not that well wandered in neither Grails, Rails etc to know
> whats better or not..
>
I agree that it is not a fair comparison, and I do not wish to imply
that Grails is better than Wicket or that dynamic languages are better
then strongly typed languages. I don't wish to imply anything other than
report my experience on how effective I 'felt' while developing the same
application in Grails and Wicket.
> I guess what you are saying are that the Spring plus hibernate combo
> could be better..? There are a lot of alternatives to that combo.. Or
> is it that Grails has better templating support?
>
Grails hides the ORM and dependency injection libraries and replaces the
configuration with convention. It was the Spring and Hibernate
configuration that bogged me down and perhaps biased me a bit against
the Wicket solution.
>
> Anyhow what I am seeing are that Wicket are always the least of my
> troubles, it's always something else and usually it's not Spring
> either so that only leaves the ORM as trouble maker, or is it the
> programmet :) On larger projects you kind of develop your own
> framework (with Wicket+.*) for the business logic and when you get
> there speed really picks up.
>
I agree, at least as far as I can with my little experience with Wicket.

I did not mean to sound sour against Wicket. I like the framework, which
is why when my boss went running from Grails like an extra in a Godzilla
movie, I pushed for Wicket. I just personally feel more effective using
Grails/Rails than I do with Wicket. Your mileage will vary ;)



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Re: What is your experience on the time of development ?

[Nino Martinez <ni...@gmail.com>]

Hi Curtis

You cant really compare wicket against Grails, Wicket is not a full 
stack framework (Wicket is only a webframework).. And actually Grails 
can run with wicket too[1]... Or are you saying that dynamic languages 
are better than type safety?  Not that I want to start a religious war 
though, im not that well wandered in neither Grails, Rails etc to know 
whats better or not..

I guess what you are saying are that the Spring plus hibernate combo 
could be better..? There are a lot of alternatives to that combo.. Or is 
it that Grails has better templating support?


Anyhow what I am seeing are that Wicket are always the least of my 
troubles, it's always something else and usually it's not Spring either 
so that only leaves the ORM as trouble maker, or is it the programmet :) 
On larger projects you kind of develop your own framework (with 
Wicket+.*) for the business logic and when you get there speed really 
picks up.

[1]=http://grails.org/Wicket+Plugin

Curtis Cooley wrote:
> Martin Sachs wrote:
>   
>>> <p>I'm looking for a little comparison of the development-time for
>>> Applications in Wicket against other Technologies. </p>
>>> <p>
>>> I think the development with Wicket is two times faster than Struts. But
>>> what are your experiences on JSF, Rails/Grails, SpringMVC/SpringWebFlow.
>>> </p>
>>> Anyone you know the development-time from experience ?
>>> <br>
>>>
>>> (P.S.: The applications must use AJAX and many custom components or tags
>>> in JSP, not just a hello world sample)
>>>
>>>     
>>>       
> I built a small database driven application in about 4 days using Grails
> then my boss freaked about using a "4GL" and made me rewrite it in
> Wicket. That took me about 3 weeks.
>
> Now, I started at 0 with both frameworks and used
> Wicket+Spring+Hibernate which I got Spring and Hibernate wiring for free
> with Grails. My Spring and Hibernate experience was 0, so grails really
> pulled through in that area. I also have experience with Ruby and Rails
> which helped with the Grails work, but I'd also built a few (4-5) Wicket
> pages for another app, so I think that about balances starting points.
>
> My really rough guess is that I'd be 50 to 75 percent more effective in
> Grails than Wicket now that I know what I learned during the three weeks
> of Wicket work.
>
> If I had my druthers, I'd build our app using Grails. I much prefer
> Groovy/Ruby to Java, and I've been writing Java since 1.1!
>
>
>
> Confidential/Privileged information may be contained in this email. If you are not the intended recipient, please do not copy, distribute or use it for any purpose, nor disclose its contents to any other person. Please notify the sender immediately if you receive this in error.
>
>   
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Re: What is your experience on the time of development ?

[John Armstrong <si...@siberian.org>]

We've started using Cayenne and Wicket to refactor an existing Struts
based application.

I've found this combination lethally powerful and fast and so far we
are moving at a much quicker pace.

Just as important though, and the reason I chose wicket, is that the
true html view is allowing the designers and UI folks to participate
in the development as true partners, in real-time, directly out of
SVN.

So there are two measures of speed, the Java Coding Speed and the
overall speed of the organization.

We have not deployed anything yet but so far so good.

J

On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 8:24 AM, Curtis Cooley
<cu...@venture.com.sg> wrote:
> Xhelas wrote:
>> This is a very interesting and surprising post in this forum. Do you have
>> further explanation about your superior productivity using Grails? Is this
>> due to the kind of applications you developp or to special tools that comes
>> with this framework? Is the key stone groovy?
>> Thanks for your enlighments!
>>
> Like I said, it was a very rough estimate. I believe it was because I
> was so green in each framework. Grails does so much grunt work and code
> generation for you, that you can focus on getting your business logic done.
>
> We were trying to do a comparison of the two frameworks, so that is why
> we added Spring and Hibernate to the Wicket mix. Grails wires in your
> ORM and dependency injection so you don't have to.
>
> Also, this was a very short and pretty unscientific experiment. Just one
> of many 'opinions' one can consider when looking at frameworks.
>
>
>
> Confidential/Privileged information may be contained in this email. If you are not the intended recipient, please do not copy, distribute or use it for any purpose, nor disclose its contents to any other person. Please notify the sender immediately if you receive this in error.
>
>
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Re: What is your experience on the time of development ?

[Curtis Cooley <cu...@venture.com.sg>]

Xhelas wrote:
> This is a very interesting and surprising post in this forum. Do you have
> further explanation about your superior productivity using Grails? Is this
> due to the kind of applications you developp or to special tools that comes
> with this framework? Is the key stone groovy?
> Thanks for your enlighments!
>   
Like I said, it was a very rough estimate. I believe it was because I
was so green in each framework. Grails does so much grunt work and code
generation for you, that you can focus on getting your business logic done.

We were trying to do a comparison of the two frameworks, so that is why
we added Spring and Hibernate to the Wicket mix. Grails wires in your
ORM and dependency injection so you don't have to.

Also, this was a very short and pretty unscientific experiment. Just one
of many 'opinions' one can consider when looking at frameworks.



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Re: What is your experience on the time of development ?

[Xhelas <xh...@yahoo.fr>]

This is a very interesting and surprising post in this forum. Do you have
further explanation about your superior productivity using Grails? Is this
due to the kind of applications you developp or to special tools that comes
with this framework? Is the key stone groovy?
Thanks for your enlighments!


Curtis Cooley-2 wrote:
> 
> Martin Sachs wrote:
>>> <p>I'm looking for a little comparison of the development-time for
>>> Applications in Wicket against other Technologies. </p>
>>> <p>
>>> I think the development with Wicket is two times faster than Struts. But
>>> what are your experiences on JSF, Rails/Grails, SpringMVC/SpringWebFlow.
>>> </p>
>>> Anyone you know the development-time from experience ?
>>> <br>
>>>
>>> (P.S.: The applications must use AJAX and many custom components or tags
>>> in JSP, not just a hello world sample)
>>>
>>>     
> I built a small database driven application in about 4 days using Grails
> then my boss freaked about using a "4GL" and made me rewrite it in
> Wicket. That took me about 3 weeks.
> 
> Now, I started at 0 with both frameworks and used
> Wicket+Spring+Hibernate which I got Spring and Hibernate wiring for free
> with Grails. My Spring and Hibernate experience was 0, so grails really
> pulled through in that area. I also have experience with Ruby and Rails
> which helped with the Grails work, but I'd also built a few (4-5) Wicket
> pages for another app, so I think that about balances starting points.
> 
> My really rough guess is that I'd be 50 to 75 percent more effective in
> Grails than Wicket now that I know what I learned during the three weeks
> of Wicket work.
> 
> If I had my druthers, I'd build our app using Grails. I much prefer
> Groovy/Ruby to Java, and I've been writing Java since 1.1!
> 
> 
> 
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> are not the intended recipient, please do not copy, distribute or use it
> for any purpose, nor disclose its contents to any other person. Please
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> 
> 
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