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Posted to dev@openoffice.apache.org by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org> on 2011/12/13 19:47:02 UTC
[FONTS] Inclusion in ODF (was RE: old colored vs new monochrome icons)
A short time before the most-recent ODF Plugfest, Jos van den Oever demonstrated that ODF already has a means by which fonts can be embedded in the ODF document. (I will dig up appropriate links when I am more awake.)
So, in fact, a *technical* solution seems to exist. (Most of the debates about font embedding that I have been party to are around the legal and licensing niceties and avoiding becoming a contributory infringer by not handling this well. This is not entirely unlike issues around bundling of extensions that have license limitations [;<)
Staying on the technical side of the issue, the following is now known:
1. Fonts can be embedded in ODF documents, using existing and long-present provisions of the ODF specification. [There was some confusion about using CSS and XLink provisions but, as I recall, it is actually very simple and does not require any extension to the format or schema. I will have to double-check that.)
There is now need for the following:
2. Some (more) proof-of-concept sample documents that demonstrate such embedding need to be collected as test vehicles. [Any solution applies to all ODF formats - text, spreadsheet, presentation, ... - that have a font section and definable styles in the format.]
3. It needs to be determined what happens with ODF consumers when such unexpected documents are encountered.
4. There needs to be some staging among ODF producers to support embedding in implementations (LO, AOO, Microsoft Office), etc. There also needs to be upgrading of conversion software so that font embeddings can now be ported between formats that support them (and will make very many people very happy). Consumers need to be upgraded at the same time or even ahead of producers. There is also a concern for what happens when a down-level release encounters one of these ODF files, of course.
5. A GREAT DEAL OF INTEROP TESTING AND RELEASE STAGING IS CALLED FOR. (More security analysis is also needed because font injection is an exploit path and there have been past vulnerabilities around fonts.)
6. The next ODF Plugfest is scheduled for April in Brussels. Now is a great time for moving proof-of-concept/prototype/finished/collaborative work forward for introduction and presentation on the agenda of that event. The OASIS ODF Interoperability and Conformance TC has some resources (even an SVN for sample documents and test cases) and the Plugfest mailing list can be a valuable neutral forum. (The last TC call of 2011 is tomorrow, 12-13, and this will definitely be discussed.)
7. With regard to pro-active support and the interfaces necessary to control embedding, embedded-font usage, and when and how embedded fonts can be extracted and/or repurposed in other documents, there may need to be some technical support, and that will be a longer discussion that may require extended staging to be fully functional. (It is in the nature of the ODF format that direct extraction of fonts embedded in the current structure is trivial for any teen-age hacker, with no cooperation of an ODF consumer required.) Down the road, there may need to be more-specific consideration of font embedding in the ODF Specification beyond the current, simple hook.
8. I suspect that there are cases that can be handled without too much difficulty and useful embedding can happen soon, with enrichment of the feature and functionality over time.
- Dennis E. Hamilton
tools for document interoperability, <http://nfoWorks.org/>
dennis.hamilton@acm.org gsm: +1-206-779-9430 @orcmid
-----Original Message-----
From: Gianluca Turconi [mailto:public@letturefantastiche.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2011 09:13
To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: old colored vs new monochrome icons
[ ... ]
P.S. to whom is interested, the most wanted future by the usenet
Italian community (IMO) is font inclusion in OO Writer documents. It
caused flame wars, endless legal discussions starting
from Agfa vs. Adobe trial and a huge addition to my kill file. :-P
--
Lettura gratuita o acquisto di libri e racconti di fantascienza,
fantasy, horror, noir, narrativa fantastica e tradizionale:
http://www.letturefantastiche.com/
RE: [FONTS] Inclusion in ODF (was RE: old colored vs new monochrome icons)
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>.
Regarding (2), I meant sample documents that have the embedding in them. They will have to be hand-crafted because no ODF-supporting product produces them so far.
There is an SVN at OASIS for collecting samples, but only OIC TC members are committers [;<).
The Plugfest site has room for uploads and contributions, and a Wiki. Wait a little bit for this topic to trickle over there.
For this to work, there needs to be a document that uses the font, the font itself, and the PDF, as Gianluca suggests. Then the document that embeds the font can also be created. The fonts must be free to use and distribute for these. The documents need to be simple enough so that there is no issue with their widespread use and it is easy to "patch in" the embedding.
This was discussed on the OIC TC call today and there is definite interest in this topic. The DRM issues will crop up, but for the initial test cases, fonts with non-permissive licenses are not going to be used. It is possible this will be discussed on the ODF TC call on Monday, 2011-12-19 1430Z, as well.
There needs to be a roadmap somewhere. I see further issues such as MIME type, connection with metrics, and so on also mentioned in i#20370. The idea is to start with the least that can possibly work and unravel a shared understanding among ODF-supporting products, including what happens when embedded fonts are not supported or not used for any other reason.
- Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: Gianluca Turconi [mailto:public@letturefantastiche.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2011 02:18
To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: [FONTS] Inclusion in ODF (was RE: old colored vs new monochrome icons)
Il giorno Tue, 13 Dec 2011 10:47:02 -0800
"Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org> ha scritto:
> 2. Some (more) proof-of-concept sample documents that demonstrate
> such embedding need to be collected as test vehicles. [Any solution
> applies to all ODF formats - text, spreadsheet, presentation, ... -
> that have a font section and definable styles in the format.]
>
> 3. It needs to be determined what happens with ODF consumers when
> such unexpected documents are encountered.
I've a fantasy novel where I used a runic font for the introduction of
different chapters. When I sent it to my literary agent in ODF format,
she called me back asking "Why have you put random letters at the
beginning of each chapter?" :'(
Unfortunately, I cannot share this document, but I can surely ask in
the Italian Community for more sample documents, just tell me if you
think is needed.
It would be useful to have a PDF with font included or an image of the
expected document alongside what the users really see when they exchange
documents without font inclusion.
IMO, there should be a online place where people can put these sample
documents.
There is a OOo bug about this topic too:
https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=20370
Regards,
Gianluca
--
Lettura gratuita o acquisto di libri e racconti di fantascienza,
fantasy, horror, noir, narrativa fantastica e tradizionale:
http://www.letturefantastiche.com/
Re: [FONTS] Inclusion in ODF (was RE: old colored vs new monochrome
icons)
Posted by Gianluca Turconi <pu...@letturefantastiche.com>.
Il giorno Tue, 13 Dec 2011 10:47:02 -0800
"Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org> ha scritto:
> 2. Some (more) proof-of-concept sample documents that demonstrate
> such embedding need to be collected as test vehicles. [Any solution
> applies to all ODF formats - text, spreadsheet, presentation, ... -
> that have a font section and definable styles in the format.]
>
> 3. It needs to be determined what happens with ODF consumers when
> such unexpected documents are encountered.
I've a fantasy novel where I used a runic font for the introduction of
different chapters. When I sent it to my literary agent in ODF format,
she called me back asking "Why have you put random letters at the
beginning of each chapter?" :'(
Unfortunately, I cannot share this document, but I can surely ask in
the Italian Community for more sample documents, just tell me if you
think is needed.
It would be useful to have a PDF with font included or an image of the
expected document alongside what the users really see when they exchange
documents without font inclusion.
IMO, there should be a online place where people can put these sample
documents.
There is a OOo bug about this topic too:
https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=20370
Regards,
Gianluca
--
Lettura gratuita o acquisto di libri e racconti di fantascienza,
fantasy, horror, noir, narrativa fantastica e tradizionale:
http://www.letturefantastiche.com/